ProteinMurder
Member
Damn, so this is another herbal that does nothing? Or not enough for any realistic gains anyway. :-(
iForce Nutrition - Tropinol - THE CHAMP IS HERE!(free bottles inside!)
- Thread starter VaughnTrue
- Start date
Damn, so this is another herbal that does nothing? Or not enough for any realistic gains anyway. :-(
ProteinMurder
Member
Dude, are you for real?? This is scary stuff, truely.
Is the dollar before everything now? is there not an honest person left? Thats an extremely disappointing eye opener.:shock:
Rucksdaddy
Member
I'm not a rep for Iforce, so not sure where you are getting that from.
Rucksdaddy
Member
I have no problem with him questioning the product, that's perfectly healthy. It's his attitude I have a problem with. In his mind he's already right, he only asks for evidence or bloodwork so he can mock it and rationalise why he's right. He's not interested in learning or the truth, he's simply interested proving that he's right. That's what bothers me. If he came from a place of actually curiosity in knowing the truth then we wouldn't have a problem.
Someone offers to their own bloodwork as their own personal evidence, to actually put in some real work beyond being a keyboard jockey, and in turn is accused of playing games and told he'll be the one saying sorry, because he's already wrong even before he's shown it. How can he already be wrong?
To me he's more interested in stirring things up then actually contributing to a thread. I hope this will be my last post on this.... back on topic
Well put. That is exactly why it's not worth doing it because no matter if I post legitimate blood work from the hospital I work for, he will make some claim that it's not "real" blood work.
steveironman
Banned
So u arent logging in here as 4 diff people (so far that i have found) and one of them isnt a manufacturers rep? Go ahead respond..and after you do..i WILL post all 4 user id's...the ip address AND all personal info associated with it.... No prob.
This is disgusting.....
ProteinMurder
Member
More than that it's scary. I had no Idea the onsumer was being mislead to this point. Mislead, yes, but not utterly shafted. If true...... This is bad, bad stuff. Not happy.
thebigt
Legend
damn, if that's true you need to tell us the 4 names.
fanzdslpwr
Member
I knew tropinol was overated crap!!! they even put a small dose of caffeine in it and call it a test booster
Rucksdaddy
Member
I am a rep, but not for Iforce. And no, not logging in here as 4 different people, I only have one account. So go ahead and post whatever you want. Your investigative skills obviously suck.
JoHNnyNuTZ
Well-known member
WOW!!! Im not even sure how to respond to this assault.
steveironman
Banned
*L* You are a liar. I knew you were a rep ..i caught you using multiple user ids. Now you are posting through a proxy and have fixed the multiple id's ....so who's investigative skills suck? Id just bow out...as gracefully as possible...your busted..admit it..move on.... This place can be insane....:wtf:
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
I post from both VaughnTrue and iForceNutrition(i forgot about it until I realized it was saved in my fiances iphone when i had posted from it yesterday or the day before).
I'm confused as to the big issue at hand here.
We have 1-2 guys who are claiming natural test boosters don't/can't/wont/ ever do anything...right?
Ok. Cool I understand why some people believe that, I really do. I've used some test boosters that made me wanna kill someone for falling for. However, I've also run others that I had great success with.
If you don't believe the product can do what we and the loggers are now claiming, I'm not too worried. Why don't we figure out how the general public responds to the product before bringing out the pitchfork and torches?
So far the loggers have been having some great logs on many diff boards(this one included), and our alpha tester hormone panels came back awesome.
We are doing everything within our power to show you guys what the product can do, but we need the time to actually do it, lol.
I'm confused as to the big issue at hand here.
We have 1-2 guys who are claiming natural test boosters don't/can't/wont/ ever do anything...right?
Ok. Cool I understand why some people believe that, I really do. I've used some test boosters that made me wanna kill someone for falling for. However, I've also run others that I had great success with.
If you don't believe the product can do what we and the loggers are now claiming, I'm not too worried. Why don't we figure out how the general public responds to the product before bringing out the pitchfork and torches?
So far the loggers have been having some great logs on many diff boards(this one included), and our alpha tester hormone panels came back awesome.
We are doing everything within our power to show you guys what the product can do, but we need the time to actually do it, lol.
steveironman
Banned
Prob shouldn't ..its a losing battle for you...
I think that's been pretty firmly established.
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
i can say with 100% honesty that the guy you're talking about has no affiliation with iforce.
on this board we have:
me
mile
james
john
no one else.
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
I'm curious. Usually when someone has this much anger to give out, its due to a past transgression.
Did I or iForce do something that pissed you off in the past?
I'm not trying to be a ****, I'm genuinely curious because all I'm asking for is the CHANCE to show what the product can do. If at the end of it, you still dont agree...by all means, tell people. But before seeing what it can actually do for yourself or for others just confuses me.
steveironman
Banned
As i said Vaughn and i quote - "Now im not putting Vaughn in this category by any means,...." i never suspected a conspiracy on your part..just his to try to lend credibility to a segment of the supp industry that IMO - doesnt deserve much. That is herbal test boosters. You have handled yourself as a total gentleman.
steveironman
Banned
Vaughn ..
1- your company is claiming a testosterone increase greater than that of a 300mg im injection of testosterone enanthate???? cmon man????
2- Your 2 lab reports are from a chiropractor .
3- the one real world independent person that used this and did blood work had no variations in test outside the normal ones......
4- Every clinical human study on herbal test boosters renders every one absolutely useless ...
Thats all im saying...
1- your company is claiming a testosterone increase greater than that of a 300mg im injection of testosterone enanthate???? cmon man????
2- Your 2 lab reports are from a chiropractor .
3- the one real world independent person that used this and did blood work had no variations in test outside the normal ones......
4- Every clinical human study on herbal test boosters renders every one absolutely useless ...
Thats all im saying...
Rucksdaddy
Member
Thank you. Proving that steveironman is a liar.
Rucksdaddy
Member
You are a liar. Post the information that you claim you have. Waiting.....
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
Well actually, we used caffeine due to its dose dependent effect on testosterone. Here, check out this study to confirm it
1. Can you find me a quote of where I said that? Im in fact 100% positive I never have because it is something I have never even thought of claiming.
2. You're correct...he's a chiropractor. He's a pretty good friend, and is able to get saliva hormone testing kits pretty cheap. Really saves us a lot of time and money on doing hormone panels.
3. Well Anthony Roberts did real life blood work that showed different, as did his friend who posted 1350 test levels at like 35 years old...AFTER 3-4 weeks of Superdrol. This herb is really impressive. Will it work for every single person? No way. Nothing does. Will it work for a lot of people? You bet ya. I think this stuff is the bee's knees.
4. And Creatine Ethyl Ester used to be SCIENTIFICALLY superior to monohydrate...now lookie who's superior now?
:grouphug:
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
Just saw this in the log section...
he's about a month into his tropinol. used it for PCT.
over 1200 test coming from shut down(or at least depressed).
so even if he was only depressed to 400, which is pretty damn high while on gear, he tripled his test levels...no?
also...look, with oddly low estrogen despite these high levels and him just coming off PCT.
VAUGHN TELL TRUTH?!?!
he's about a month into his tropinol. used it for PCT.
over 1200 test coming from shut down(or at least depressed).
so even if he was only depressed to 400, which is pretty damn high while on gear, he tripled his test levels...no?
also...look, with oddly low estrogen despite these high levels and him just coming off PCT.
VAUGHN TELL TRUTH?!?!
mw1
Sponsor
Well actually, we used caffeine due to its dose dependent effect on testosterone. Here, check out this study to confirm it
1. Can you find me a quote of where I said that? Im in fact 100% positive I never have because it is something I have never even thought of claiming.
2. You're correct...he's a chiropractor. He's a pretty good friend, and is able to get saliva hormone testing kits pretty cheap. Really saves us a lot of time and money on doing hormone panels.
3. Well Anthony Roberts did real life blood work that showed different, as did his friend who posted 1350 test levels at like 35 years old...AFTER 3-4 weeks of Superdrol. This herb is really impressive. Will it work for every single person? No way. Nothing does. Will it work for a lot of people? You bet ya. I think this stuff is the bee's knees.
4. And Creatine Ethyl Ester used to be SCIENTIFICALLY superior to monohydrate...now lookie who's superior now?
:grouphug:[/QUOTE
:facepalm: at referencing AR~~he always has an agenda and he does with this bulbine also
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
Well actually, we used caffeine due to its dose dependent effect on testosterone. Here, check out this study to confirm it
1. Can you find me a quote of where I said that? Im in fact 100% positive I never have because it is something I have never even thought of claiming.
2. You're correct...he's a chiropractor. He's a pretty good friend, and is able to get saliva hormone testing kits pretty cheap. Really saves us a lot of time and money on doing hormone panels.
3. Well Anthony Roberts did real life blood work that showed different, as did his friend who posted 1350 test levels at like 35 years old...AFTER 3-4 weeks of Superdrol. This herb is really impressive. Will it work for every single person? No way. Nothing does. Will it work for a lot of people? You bet ya. I think this stuff is the bee's knees.
4. And Creatine Ethyl Ester used to be SCIENTIFICALLY superior to monohydrate...now lookie who's superior now?
:grouphug:[/QUOTE
:facepalm: at referencing AR~~he always has an agenda and he does with this bulbine also
Listen, you know I respect you and for the most part agree with you almost 100% of the time when it comes to industry issues.
I have spoken to AR quite a lot in the past couple of months, and he has struck me as nothing but a guy who really loves supplements and the industry.
Heres food for thought...
I called AR a while back looking for BN raws. After telling me all about BN for like 20 mins, he finally told me who had some I could get. I told him instantly "Of course you'll get a finders fee..." and he said "no don't worry about it. its ok". Thats right. AR isn't making a DIME off BN at this point in time, just like he isn't making anything off Fadogia Agrestis.
steveironman
Banned
Well actually, we used caffeine due to its dose dependent effect on testosterone. Here, check out this study to confirm it
1. Can you find me a quote of where I said that? Im in fact 100% positive I never have because it is something I have never even thought of claiming.
347% increase in test plus the other miracle ingredient that causes an 80% increase you claim- avg human male produces 50-70mg test /week ...you do the math as far as your claimed increase goes
2. You're correct...he's a chiropractor. He's a pretty good friend, and is able to get saliva hormone testing kits pretty cheap. Really saves us a lot of time and money on doing hormone panels. Also ineffective ..able to be easily manipulated...not even true lab test results. Read the following:
Most reputable doctors stopped using saliva testing over 10 years ago because they found the tests weren’t reliable. Many variables can affect the amount and quality of saliva and/or hormones present in the mouth: medications can drastically alter the amount of bound vs. free hormones in the saliva, antihistamines or dehydration will decrease the amount of saliva in the mouth available for testing, and other elements such as foods or supplements can also throw off the saliva test results.
The major drawback to saliva testing is that it can only measure the free hormones circulating in the body. Hormones are carried in the body in 3 ways: strongly bound to globulin, weakly bound to albumin, and unbound or “free”. Research has shown that both the hormones bound to albumin and the free hormones activate the steroid receptors, making them both “bioavailable” or available to the body for use. Relying on saliva tests, which only register part of the bioavailable hormones, would cause your doctor to prescribe the wrong strengths of hormones for you. This is why treatments relying on saliva testing often don’t relieve symptoms well or even cause other symptoms.
Serum (blood) testing remains the gold standard in fertility, endocrinology and menopause treatment settings.
3. Well Anthony Roberts did real life blood work that showed different, as did his friend who posted 1350 test levels at like 35 years old...AFTER 3-4 weeks of Superdrol. This herb is really impressive. Will it work for every single person? No way. Nothing does. Will it work for a lot of people? You bet ya. I think this stuff is the bee's knees. Anthony Roberts is a liar ..a convicted felon and a plagiarist who babbles more theoretical BS than anyone ive even seen. (ie: benadryl clear receptor for clen to be effective *L* oh christ ...or Nizrol helps cure acne *L* another oh christ. The guy is a fake , a phony , a criminal and a liar. Id be careful what horse i attach my cart to. i would NEVER trust him ..he's a documented liar. Need I say More?
4. And Creatine Ethyl Ester used to be SCIENTIFICALLY superior to monohydrate...now lookie who's superior now?hmm not according to JAMA or NEJOM ...the 2 most reputable sources for published studies in the US...
:grouphug:
Like I said we WILL all know the truth Vaughn...
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
While I appreciate the in depth response, I'm honestly running out of things to say. iForce isn't Muscle Tech and we don't have $50,000,000 to spend on clinical studies and other things...yet
We are doing the absolute best we can with what we have, and what we have is the coolest natural herb any of us has seen so far. As I keep saying, if you don't believe it...ok, why does coming in here and attacking multiple people solve? Nothing.
I'd love to know your response to the guy whos hormone panels I just quoted...thats the 3rd hormone test yet showing at LEAST 250% crease lol
steveironman
Banned
This says it ALL it really does. Just read my replies in bold. Pretty much irrefutable points.
Well actually, we used caffeine due to its dose dependent effect on testosterone. Here, check out this study to confirm it
1. Can you find me a quote of where I said that? Im in fact 100% positive I never have because it is something I have never even thought of claiming.
347% increase in test plus the other miracle ingredient that causes an 80% increase you claim- avg human male produces 50-70mg test /week ...you do the math as far as your claimed increase goes
2. You're correct...he's a chiropractor. He's a pretty good friend, and is able to get saliva hormone testing kits pretty cheap. Really saves us a lot of time and money on doing hormone panels.
Also ineffective ..able to be easily manipulated...not even true lab test results. Read the following:
Most reputable doctors stopped using saliva testing over 10 years ago because they found the tests weren’t reliable. Many variables can affect the amount and quality of saliva and/or hormones present in the mouth: medications can drastically alter the amount of bound vs. free hormones in the saliva, antihistamines or dehydration will decrease the amount of saliva in the mouth available for testing, and other elements such as foods or supplements can also throw off the saliva test results.
The major drawback to saliva testing is that it can only measure the free hormones circulating in the body. Hormones are carried in the body in 3 ways: strongly bound to globulin, weakly bound to albumin, and unbound or “free”. Research has shown that both the hormones bound to albumin and the free hormones activate the steroid receptors, making them both “bioavailable” or available to the body for use. Relying on saliva tests, which only register part of the bioavailable hormones, would cause your doctor to prescribe the wrong strengths of hormones for you. This is why treatments relying on saliva testing often don’t relieve symptoms well or even cause other symptoms.
Serum (blood) testing remains the gold standard in fertility, endocrinology and menopause treatment settings.
3. Well Anthony Roberts did real life blood work that showed different, as did his friend who posted 1350 test levels at like 35 years old...AFTER 3-4 weeks of Superdrol. This herb is really impressive. Will it work for every single person? No way. Nothing does. Will it work for a lot of people? You bet ya. I think this stuff is the bee's knees.
Anthony Roberts is a liar ..a convicted felon and a plagiarist who babbles more theoretical BS than anyone ive even seen. (ie: benadryl clear receptor for clen to be effective *L* oh christ ...or Nizrol helps cure acne *L* another oh christ. The guy is a fake , a phony , a criminal and a liar. Id be careful what horse i attach my cart to. i would NEVER trust him ..he's a documented liar. Need I say More?
4. And Creatine Ethyl Ester used to be SCIENTIFICALLY superior to monohydrate...now lookie who's superior now?
hmm not according to JAMA or NEJOM ...the 2 most reputable sources for published studies in the US...
:grouphug:
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
Ah so no response to the other tester who just posted bloodwork with his test levels into the supra-physiological levels.
Now I understand. You must be involved in the industry. I wonder what company you actually work for.
Have a nice night, I'm done here
Now I understand. You must be involved in the industry. I wonder what company you actually work for.
Have a nice night, I'm done here
steveironman
Banned
^^ We will see Vaughn ..with REAL lab work...real testers ..and unbiased reports. Re read my post ..i know you dont want it to be the last one on here cause it basically shreds the credibility of this product but re-read. Why would i consider any data already rendered obsolete and inaccurate by the medical community ANY credence what so ever ?
ILL RE POST FOR YOU :
This says it ALL it really does. Just read my replies in bold. Pretty much irrefutable points.
ILL RE POST FOR YOU :
This says it ALL it really does. Just read my replies in bold. Pretty much irrefutable points.
Well actually, we used caffeine due to its dose dependent effect on testosterone. Here, check out this study to confirm it
1. Can you find me a quote of where I said that? Im in fact 100% positive I never have because it is something I have never even thought of claiming.
347% increase in test plus the other miracle ingredient that causes an 80% increase you claim- avg human male produces 50-70mg test /week ...you do the math as far as your claimed increase goes
2. You're correct...he's a chiropractor. He's a pretty good friend, and is able to get saliva hormone testing kits pretty cheap. Really saves us a lot of time and money on doing hormone panels.
Also ineffective ..able to be easily manipulated...not even true lab test results. Read the following:
Most reputable doctors stopped using saliva testing over 10 years ago because they found the tests weren’t reliable. Many variables can affect the amount and quality of saliva and/or hormones present in the mouth: medications can drastically alter the amount of bound vs. free hormones in the saliva, antihistamines or dehydration will decrease the amount of saliva in the mouth available for testing, and other elements such as foods or supplements can also throw off the saliva test results.
The major drawback to saliva testing is that it can only measure the free hormones circulating in the body. Hormones are carried in the body in 3 ways: strongly bound to globulin, weakly bound to albumin, and unbound or “free”. Research has shown that both the hormones bound to albumin and the free hormones activate the steroid receptors, making them both “bioavailable” or available to the body for use. Relying on saliva tests, which only register part of the bioavailable hormones, would cause your doctor to prescribe the wrong strengths of hormones for you. This is why treatments relying on saliva testing often don’t relieve symptoms well or even cause other symptoms.
Serum (blood) testing remains the gold standard in fertility, endocrinology and menopause treatment settings.
3. Well Anthony Roberts did real life blood work that showed different, as did his friend who posted 1350 test levels at like 35 years old...AFTER 3-4 weeks of Superdrol. This herb is really impressive. Will it work for every single person? No way. Nothing does. Will it work for a lot of people? You bet ya. I think this stuff is the bee's knees.
Anthony Roberts is a liar ..a convicted felon and a plagiarist who babbles more theoretical BS than anyone ive even seen. (ie: benadryl clear receptor for clen to be effective *L* oh christ ...or Nizrol helps cure acne *L* another oh christ. The guy is a fake , a phony , a criminal and a liar. Id be careful what horse i attach my cart to. i would NEVER trust him ..he's a documented liar. Need I say More?
4. And Creatine Ethyl Ester used to be SCIENTIFICALLY superior to monohydrate...now lookie who's superior now?
hmm not according to JAMA or NEJOM ...the 2 most reputable sources for published studies in the US...
:grouphug:
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
lol ok, here are my responses for you despite it doing absolutely nothing to further this conversation.
1. We claimed a 347% increase may be possible. Our alpha testers showed increases of 300%+ which is right there. Can every single person gain a 347% increase? Nope...not possible. However can every single person who uses ANY drug see the desired effects? Nope...not possible.
2. You are correct. Blood tests are more precise than saliva testing. We used saliva testing for reasons of price, usability(we had alpha testers from all over the country, and had to send them hormone tests. This was the best option at the time).
3. I've already given my response to why I included AR's name...read above a few posts.
edit: I'd also like to mention that the user who posted bloodwork voluntarily used blood testing...not saliva. >1200 test level, 32 e2 on a scale of 20-82.
way higher than normal test, lower than normal estrogen...
yup, that blood test must be off!
1. We claimed a 347% increase may be possible. Our alpha testers showed increases of 300%+ which is right there. Can every single person gain a 347% increase? Nope...not possible. However can every single person who uses ANY drug see the desired effects? Nope...not possible.
2. You are correct. Blood tests are more precise than saliva testing. We used saliva testing for reasons of price, usability(we had alpha testers from all over the country, and had to send them hormone tests. This was the best option at the time).
3. I've already given my response to why I included AR's name...read above a few posts.
edit: I'd also like to mention that the user who posted bloodwork voluntarily used blood testing...not saliva. >1200 test level, 32 e2 on a scale of 20-82.
way higher than normal test, lower than normal estrogen...
yup, that blood test must be off!
steveironman
Banned
lol ok, here are my responses for you despite it doing absolutely nothing to further this conversation.
1. We claimed a 347% increase may be possible. Our alpha testers showed increases of 300%+ which is right there. Can every single person gain a 347% increase? Nope...not possible. However can every single person who uses ANY drug see the desired effects? Nope...not possible.
So you did claim test increases greater than that of 300mgs test enantahte didnt you ?
2. You are correct. Blood tests are more precise than saliva testing. We used saliva testing for reasons of price, usability(we had alpha testers from all over the country, and had to send them hormone tests. This was the best option at the time).
In addition to the shortcomings and total lack of acceptance in this type of testing you also have to factor in that saliva test do not allow at all for the testing of "free" test - which as anyone knows is the only test level that truly matters...you cant even measure it on the tests your using. Yet you make claims of: "Users of Tropinol get expect to have the most exciting cycle of their lives. Increases in strength, libido, power, and muscle mass will come quickly. Users can expect muscle mass gains upwards of 6-9lbs, significant strength gains, reduced recovery times, as well as an incredible increase in libido."
... - Laughable...
3. I've already given my response to why I included AR's name...read above a few posts.
If your company wishes to align itself with such individuals- thats up to you...i certainly wouldnt use it as a selling point or reference of credibility - under ANY circumstances.
edit: I'd also like to mention that the user who posted bloodwork voluntarily used blood testing...not saliva. >1200 test level, 32 e2 on a scale of 20-82.
way higher than normal test, lower than normal estrogen...
I saw no lab work at all ..numbers posted by some unknown person. PLUS he said he can get test and estro levels free but not "free test" no way that could be done for free. Id bet serious money that that is because he did a saliva..not a blood test ...bank on it. I think you may have just lied and gotten caught Vaughn.
yup, that blood test must be off!
Blood Test huh? *L*
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
lol this is getting comical.
#1 - Again, please find that quote from me. I don't remember typing it, don't remember posting it, and can't seem to find it...please help me so I can better address it.
HOWEVER
Lets take apart what you're saying exactly.
iForce is claiming an increase of 300% is possible. correct?
We showed hormone work from men that experienced 273%-323% increase in testosterone. correct?
Then, an end user(who I would love to have mods check IP's and whatever else to show you he has no affiliation to us), shows he went from shutdown/depressed to >1200 in less than a month on Tropinol.
So assuming he was only depressed down to 400, he still experienced a 300% increase or much higher(potentially).
All of these users experienced a 300% increase, however none of them got the increase that 300mg of test would give them. What are you trying to say? No where have we compared Tropinol to testosterone, no where.
#2 - As I said above, I personally think AR may have his issues, but when it comes to BN I firmly believe he has no ties with it.
#3 - I really hope he posts it! I know some other loggers plan to, should be exciting
edit: caught in a lie? I have yet to lie, nor do I plan on it. Please find ANY evidence that we are lying about any of our results or our loggers results.
#1 - Again, please find that quote from me. I don't remember typing it, don't remember posting it, and can't seem to find it...please help me so I can better address it.
HOWEVER
Lets take apart what you're saying exactly.
iForce is claiming an increase of 300% is possible. correct?
We showed hormone work from men that experienced 273%-323% increase in testosterone. correct?
Then, an end user(who I would love to have mods check IP's and whatever else to show you he has no affiliation to us), shows he went from shutdown/depressed to >1200 in less than a month on Tropinol.
So assuming he was only depressed down to 400, he still experienced a 300% increase or much higher(potentially).
All of these users experienced a 300% increase, however none of them got the increase that 300mg of test would give them. What are you trying to say? No where have we compared Tropinol to testosterone, no where.
#2 - As I said above, I personally think AR may have his issues, but when it comes to BN I firmly believe he has no ties with it.
#3 - I really hope he posts it! I know some other loggers plan to, should be exciting
edit: caught in a lie? I have yet to lie, nor do I plan on it. Please find ANY evidence that we are lying about any of our results or our loggers results.
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
Can't believe I didn't check the other thread earlier!
Good marketing man, well played.
Nice self promotion going on here: Invalid Link Removed
So let me guess.
You and a buddy are starting a website that will talk trash about supplements. This will definitely draw crowds because who doesn't love drama? I know I do.
So its an AWESOME idea to go into the newest/hottest test booster on the market and claim its crap despite a ton of evidence pointing the other way. I'm sure you will get a great response to your website.
Best of luck with it
Good marketing man, well played.
Nice self promotion going on here: Invalid Link Removed
So let me guess.
You and a buddy are starting a website that will talk trash about supplements. This will definitely draw crowds because who doesn't love drama? I know I do.
So its an AWESOME idea to go into the newest/hottest test booster on the market and claim its crap despite a ton of evidence pointing the other way. I'm sure you will get a great response to your website.
Best of luck with it
steveironman
Banned
lol this is getting comical.
#1 - Again, please find that quote from me. I don't remember typing it, don't remember posting it, and can't seem to find it...please help me so I can better address it.
HOWEVER
Lets take apart what you're saying exactly.
iForce is claiming an increase of 300% is possible. correct?
We showed hormone work from men that experienced 273%-323% increase in testosterone. correct?
Then, an end user(who I would love to have mods check IP's and whatever else to show you he has no affiliation to us), shows he went from shutdown/depressed to >1200 in less than a month on Tropinol.
So assuming he was only depressed down to 400, he still experienced a 300% increase or much higher(potentially).
All of these users experienced a 300% increase, however none of them got the increase that 300mg of test would give them. What are you trying to say? No where have we compared Tropinol to testosterone, no where.
#2 - As I said above, I personally think AR may have his issues, but when it comes to BN I firmly believe he has no ties with it.
#3 - I really hope he posts it! I know some other loggers plan to, should be exciting
edit: caught in a lie? I have yet to lie, nor do I plan on it. Please find ANY evidence that we are lying about any of our results or our loggers results.
So lets get this straight - you are advertising 347% increase in test (ill go slow..so a 2 yr old could get it) ..MOST men produce the equivalent of 50-70mgs test /week. Do the math - with your claim thats MORE than a 300mg injection of test enanthate. Period. End of story.
So you admit - he posted NO bloodwork at all. Dont you find it suspicious that he couldnt get free test tested...just like in a saliva test Vaughn. Curious.
Now lets address the fact that you arent even using testing that measures what is the "effective" testoserone levels!! Anyone with a little knowledge knows free test levels are the important ones...anything else could be considered meaningless based on the claims you make as far as the results of this product.
You say you dont lie..yet all of the above is essentially a lie..i mean you know that free test is the test that matters..yet you dont even use a test that can measure it. You say 347% increase...oh wait now there is a caveat..maybe you should say as far as we can tell its an increase in usless testosterone for all we know! *L*
Yet you are comfortable making these claims! - Scary man...downright scary.
Buyer Beware !
steveironman
Banned
Can't believe I didn't check the other thread earlier!
Good marketing man, well played.
Nice self promotion going on here: Invalid Link Removed
So let me guess.
You and a buddy are starting a website that will talk trash about supplements. This will definitely draw crowds because who doesn't love drama? I know I do.
So its an AWESOME idea to go into the newest/hottest test booster on the market and claim its crap despite a ton of evidence pointing the other way. I'm sure you will get a great response to your website.
Best of luck with it
*L* self promotion implies i have something personal to gain i do not. Its far from me and a buddy i assure you of that. When you see the people involved..maybe you will give the project the respect it deserves....
Based on this product..id say you are one of the companies that may have something to worry about...but hey time and science will tell....
steveironman
Banned
lol this is getting comical.
#1 - Again, please find that quote from me. I don't remember typing it, don't remember posting it, and can't seem to find it...please help me so I can better address it.
HOWEVER
Lets take apart what you're saying exactly.
iForce is claiming an increase of 300% is possible. correct?
We showed hormone work from men that experienced 273%-323% increase in testosterone. correct?
Then, an end user(who I would love to have mods check IP's and whatever else to show you he has no affiliation to us), shows he went from shutdown/depressed to >1200 in less than a month on Tropinol.
So assuming he was only depressed down to 400, he still experienced a 300% increase or much higher(potentially).
All of these users experienced a 300% increase, however none of them got the increase that 300mg of test would give them. What are you trying to say? No where have we compared Tropinol to testosterone, no where.
#2 - As I said above, I personally think AR may have his issues, but when it comes to BN I firmly believe he has no ties with it.
#3 - I really hope he posts it! I know some other loggers plan to, should be exciting
edit: caught in a lie? I have yet to lie, nor do I plan on it. Please find ANY evidence that we are lying about any of our results or our loggers results.
So lets get this straight - you are advertising 347% increase in test (ill go slow..so a 2 yr old could get it) ..MOST men produce the equivalent of 50-70mgs test /week. Do the math - with your claim thats MORE than a 300mg injection of test enanthate. Period. End of story.
So you admit - he posted NO bloodwork at all. Dont you find it suspicious that he couldnt get free test tested...just like in a saliva test Vaughn. Curious.
Now lets address the fact that you arent even using testing that measures what is the "effective" testoserone levels!! Anyone with a little knowledge knows free test levels are the important ones...anything else could be considered meaningless based on the claims you make as far as the results of this product.
You say you dont lie..yet all of the above is essentially a lie..i mean you know that free test is the test that matters..yet you dont even use a test that can measure it. You say 347% increase...oh wait now there is a caveat - the guy was at zero *L*..maybe you should say as far as we can tell its an increase in useless testosterone for all we know - THATS the truth*L*
Yet you are comfortable making these claims! - Scary man...downright scary.
Buyer Beware !
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
answer above sweetie
edit: yes i Know the above link is to another forum. The forum itself has a link in it that has the direct source.
ProteinMurder
Member
Can't believe I didn't check the other thread earlier!
Good marketing man, well played.
Nice self promotion going on here: Invalid Link Removed
So let me guess.
You and a buddy are starting a website that will talk trash about supplements. This will definitely draw crowds because who doesn't love drama? I know I do.
So its an AWESOME idea to go into the newest/hottest test booster on the market and claim its crap despite a ton of evidence pointing the other way. I'm sure you will get a great response to your website.
Best of luck with it
I'll be first to admit, I doubt I have the smarts or skills to argue with you much, but doesnt that thread say how It's self funded, no advertising etc? Wouldn't that lead to alot better chance of them NOT having a vested interest like yourself or any other rep for any company? If he stands to gain nothing but satisfaction in a passion fulfilled, then how can you imply something cloak an dagger bout said website?
Your a smart guy, obviously. You gonna sit there and say websites like that are a bad Idea? The supplement industry IS completely out of control and corrupt. This is common knowledge. They seem to have carte blanhe to claim whatever they like, without anybody ever taking them to task. I cant think of another industry on earth that has a gold pass for BS like supp companies.
So, again, why is that so bad? that there are people that have had enough like us all, and seem to wanna do something bout it.
From reading his posts, he's not abusive etc. I honestly think, if you laid irefutable evidence in front of him, he'd likely apologize and be on his way.
My opinion, I have likely bitten off more than i can chew here, but had to say it. Its 2:30pm here Im actually off to gym! I'll chek back in later to see how bad i get reamed
My dam "c" key is dodgy....
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
Here is the study info to show you I wasn't making up what blood levels 300mg/week of test leaves you with.
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
I'll be first to admit, I doubt I have the smarts or skills to argue with you much, but doesnt that thread say how It's self funded, no advertising etc?
again, please realize i was posting the contents of the study, not to the forum itself. Look above this post, you will see the actual study itself.
Wouldn't that lead to alot better chance of them NOT having a vested interest like yourself or any other rep for any company? If he stands to gain nothing but satisfaction in a passion fulfilled, then how can you imply something cloak an dagger bout said website?
Your a smart guy, obviously. You gonna sit there and say websites like that are a bad Idea? The supplement industry IS completely out of control and corrupt. This is common knowledge. They seem to have carte blanhe to claim whatever they like, without anybody ever taking them to task. I cant think of another industry on earth that has a gold pass for BS like supp companies.
So, again, why is that so bad? that there are people that have had enough like us all, and seem to wanna do something bout it.
From reading his posts, he's not abusive etc. I honestly think, if you laid irefutable evidence in front of him, he'd likely apologize and be on his way.
My opinion, I have likely bitten off more than i can chew here, but had to say it. Its 2:30pm here Im actually off to gym! I'll chek back in later to see how bad i get reamed
My dam "c" key is dodgy....
This entire post is based on the premise I was trusting another forum for my science backing. You were incorrect in this so I have nothing else I can really comment on
in bold...
steveironman
Banned
^^ yeah hes talking about my upcoming publication Vaughn. Not your link ....
SolidusSnake
Member
How did I miss this LMAO...
Saliva tests do not work well at all..
Free test tests via blood work is much too expensive to get tested.
I do not work for iforce lol..
I do not have a physical copy on hand, but will call my friend up to retrieve from him.
It probably wasnt a 300% increase from post SERM levels, but it sure was an increase.
There is only so much you can increase your total test by and then there is a cap off point..
Saliva tests do not work well at all..
Free test tests via blood work is much too expensive to get tested.
I do not work for iforce lol..
I do not have a physical copy on hand, but will call my friend up to retrieve from him.
It probably wasnt a 300% increase from post SERM levels, but it sure was an increase.
There is only so much you can increase your total test by and then there is a cap off point..
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
hahahahaha so you're still posting here?
Come on dude, really?
I've been nothing but nice, courteous, and nonconfrontational with you.
We have a brand new ingredient, from a small company. All our research has showed us it works...so we're selling it in a product of ours. If we didn't believe in it, we wouldn't sell it.
It's not like I go to work and say "how can I rip people off each day??!?!" Its more along the lines of "damn...how can I make the best product EVER that really works and people love?" I do my best with each product we offer, and believe Tropinol to really be doing that so far.
It's obvious you're causing drama for the sake of your website. Don't you have ANY moral issues knowing you are trying to make money off the unjust attacks of others? You're making all these claims that we never made, calling me a liar, and a ton of other terrible things.
If you need to stoop this low to promote your website, I honestly feel sorry for you.
steveironman
Banned
Look Bottom Lines:
1- Claims are unfounded (test methods are not only antiquated..but summaries provided by a chiropractor for gods sake..guy on pct - starting at zero - i sure as hell hope his levels increased - with or without your supplement)
2-Free Test - The test responsible for all the benefits you claim this product will yield..isnt even tested..wait cant even be tested by the method you are using.
3-You claim labwork and bloodwork ...yet neither have been posted. (not that it matters without free test even being tested or results of that being increased)
Vaughn - I wont buy the hype....why the innuendo ? why the unfounded claims? Why using testing method that doesnt even test the effective hormone? It will all be exposed as BS Vaughn....Unfortunately just like all other herbal test boosters..i fear this one is useless as well. You guys are using all the crappy marketing techniques and lies that have historically proved a product useless and a compnay ..well lets just say - lacking moral fiber. I mean you KNOW Free test is what matters - yet you dont test for it...You KNOW blood work is accuarte and provides concrete data ...but you dont use it. You KNOW it wont raise test like test e ..but your claims indicate it will . You claim: "Users of Tropinol get expect to have the most exciting cycle of their lives. Increases in strength, libido, power, and muscle mass will come quickly. Users can expect muscle mass gains upwards of 6-9lbs, significant strength gains, reduced recovery times, as well as an incredible increase in libido." - isnt it true without an increase in free test this isnt a valid claim ..yet you have no idea if your product increases free test Vaughn - Do you ?
I could go on and on..I think intelligent , well informed people, get the gist. I encourage the supp buying public to exercise caution here and hold on to your money. If not i suspect another tribulus like, ineffective , over-hyped , useless for muscle building - supplement.
I have no need to hype a non profit website *L*
How DARE you ask if I have moral issues making money unjustly? Talk about hypocritical Vaughn. As I said the website will COST money... not make it!
1- Claims are unfounded (test methods are not only antiquated..but summaries provided by a chiropractor for gods sake..guy on pct - starting at zero - i sure as hell hope his levels increased - with or without your supplement)
2-Free Test - The test responsible for all the benefits you claim this product will yield..isnt even tested..wait cant even be tested by the method you are using.
3-You claim labwork and bloodwork ...yet neither have been posted. (not that it matters without free test even being tested or results of that being increased)
Vaughn - I wont buy the hype....why the innuendo ? why the unfounded claims? Why using testing method that doesnt even test the effective hormone? It will all be exposed as BS Vaughn....Unfortunately just like all other herbal test boosters..i fear this one is useless as well. You guys are using all the crappy marketing techniques and lies that have historically proved a product useless and a compnay ..well lets just say - lacking moral fiber. I mean you KNOW Free test is what matters - yet you dont test for it...You KNOW blood work is accuarte and provides concrete data ...but you dont use it. You KNOW it wont raise test like test e ..but your claims indicate it will . You claim: "Users of Tropinol get expect to have the most exciting cycle of their lives. Increases in strength, libido, power, and muscle mass will come quickly. Users can expect muscle mass gains upwards of 6-9lbs, significant strength gains, reduced recovery times, as well as an incredible increase in libido." - isnt it true without an increase in free test this isnt a valid claim ..yet you have no idea if your product increases free test Vaughn - Do you ?
I could go on and on..I think intelligent , well informed people, get the gist. I encourage the supp buying public to exercise caution here and hold on to your money. If not i suspect another tribulus like, ineffective , over-hyped , useless for muscle building - supplement.
I have no need to hype a non profit website *L*
How DARE you ask if I have moral issues making money unjustly? Talk about hypocritical Vaughn. As I said the website will COST money... not make it!
broons
Member
I tend to agree with Steve for the most part. The burden of proof is on the supplement makers, although they are really under no obligation to do so. The consumer decides whether they are going to buy a product or not. I think what gets most annoying to consumers is the marketing gets more and more outlandish with each new product. When in reality most of them do the same thing, which is very little. I have taken only a small handful of supplements that I felt like I didn't waste my money on. In no way do I blame supplement companies for that. It was my choice to spend my cash on them. But after the umpteenth claim that the greatest herb ever has been found its like come on seriously. And this forum provides a medium for consumers to vent their frustrations.
I tried bulbine and really wasn't impressed. I found that it was just another overpriced pill full of powdered grass that had at best marginal effect. I am what supplement makers like to call a non responder.
I tried bulbine and really wasn't impressed. I found that it was just another overpriced pill full of powdered grass that had at best marginal effect. I am what supplement makers like to call a non responder.
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
You're totally right...the burden of proof is upon us...which is what we're doing, no? We're getting hormone studies done, our loggers apparently are as well.
short of a double blind peer reviewed study, we're doing pretty well
What bulbine have you used? From Phytoserm? Their product seems to be getting some nasty logs left, however our Tropinol logs seem to be going amazingly. This leads me to either believe that Phytoserm is either dosed incorrectly, or doesn't contain what it claims to. Of course, not every herb can work on every person.
steveironman
Banned
^^ and no one including you..is testing for the form of the hormone responsible for all the benefits you claim your product will give (free test).
Yeah your doing great Vaughn. *shaking my head*
Yeah your doing great Vaughn. *shaking my head*
broons
Member
Started with phytosersm for 4 weeks. Decided to give it 8 weeks just to really give it a full run so I picked up tropinol and started right as the phyto ran out. So farafter 6 weeks there has been marginal effect. Slight increase in energy, slight increase in mood. There have been no strength gains, recovery hasn't improved and libido is actually in the gutter the last couple weeks. I'm not saying my experience is ubiquitous. And I do respect that you are doing more than most companies to address concerns and actually try to show evidence.
And ya that's usually what I'm told is not everything works for everyone. I just figure I'm some sort of God man since apparently no substance on earth affects me ;-p
And ya that's usually what I'm told is not everything works for everyone. I just figure I'm some sort of God man since apparently no substance on earth affects me ;-p
ProteinMurder
Member
Thats corret i was. Prob my fault, im not the best with the written word.
andrew732
Well-known member
Whether or not this product boosts testosterone by even 100%, don't kid yourself people on believing that this Steve guy cares about your money, he himself has a reason for making this fuss. EVERYONE has intentions for getting something in return for their job done, its a natural instinct for survival. All I can say to buyers, simply get a product of interest when on sale, get pre blood work, then get post blood work and then you shall know your answer on whether to make another purchase.
IF you just are annoyed at I-force claims, you might as well get an AI to control your estrogen because your behavior is excessively women like, usually I won't say much when someone is whining but when you got to actually find out that someone has been using 4 id's is just sad..... PS not hating on you brah, just keepin it real!
IF you just are annoyed at I-force claims, you might as well get an AI to control your estrogen because your behavior is excessively women like, usually I won't say much when someone is whining but when you got to actually find out that someone has been using 4 id's is just sad..... PS not hating on you brah, just keepin it real!