criticalbench
Legend
You didn't get some paperwork on it with your bottles?
iForce Nutrition - Tropinol - THE CHAMP IS HERE!(free bottles inside!)
- Thread starter VaughnTrue
- Start date
DreamWeaver
Legend
I never got my free-bee bottle, I can only assume that customs has it. This is not the first time this has happened with free-bees...
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
this is terrible. sorry it never made it
DreamWeaver
Legend
Not your fault like I said it happens even with my monthly supps from AI sometimes. I won a bottle of Erase and they had to send it twice.
steveironman
Banned
Bulbine Natalensis????
Can you please show me (us) one actual human study. Not anecdotal studies - and not studies done on wistar rats tracking OTHER physiological effects. Thank You
Honestly - IMO - grass clippings - regardless of what continent or country they are from - have proved useless as test boosters. NO ONE has EVER proved differently in quantitative , clinical , human testing, period.
Also the person that brought this "miracle herb" to light (or at least is claiming to have taken part in that - which could be BS - he HAS done that many times) is of extremely questionable character to begin with.
Any actual clinical studies on humans that can support this main ingredient would be welcomed. Thanks again.
Can you please show me (us) one actual human study. Not anecdotal studies - and not studies done on wistar rats tracking OTHER physiological effects. Thank You
Honestly - IMO - grass clippings - regardless of what continent or country they are from - have proved useless as test boosters. NO ONE has EVER proved differently in quantitative , clinical , human testing, period.
Also the person that brought this "miracle herb" to light (or at least is claiming to have taken part in that - which could be BS - he HAS done that many times) is of extremely questionable character to begin with.
Any actual clinical studies on humans that can support this main ingredient would be welcomed. Thanks again.
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
lol well from that post I'm sure you know BN is too new to have human studies in it.
we did in house studies and showed testosterone increases in HUMANS in the 300% range.
Hope you can try it out soon
Mr.50
Board Supporter
lol well from that post I'm sure you know BN is too new to have human studies in it.
we did in house studies and showed testosterone increases in HUMANS in the 300% range.
Hope you can try it out soon
Vaughn did any blood test results come back in yet of people whose test levels started within the normal range before taking BN? I believe all of the ones posted before were for individuals who were below the normal range when they started BN....
Mr.50
steveironman
Banned
lol well from that post I'm sure you know BN is too new to have human studies in it.
we did in house studies and showed testosterone increases in HUMANS in the 300% range.
Hope you can try it out soon
Im sorry guess im just cynical. Or possibly just realistic - but i dont believe this for a second. No way. Its time we all wise up to the "herbal test booster" bs.
I know you have to make a living...its nothing personal.
This , IMO, is another useless waste of money on ,in this case, african grass clippings. If its so great , and u are gonna turn the supp industry upside down ..spring for some clinical studies, trials. Hell go to a local college ..they would LOVE to do something like this. Be damn near free for you. I bet your company wont.
Im so tired of this..not just this company..its become an industry based on rat studies (useless) , worthless unregulated ingredients , shameless unfounded claims , and over promotion of ineffective products.
So basically you dont have any clinical studies whatsoever to prove that this works at all?
Which prob wont matter..since you will have 50 people and employees posting on here how great it is etc..and people will buy into it anyway. Disgraceful.
Thats my opinion. I'll personally save my money.
scoooter
Well-known member
Strong post ! not often is this side of the argument presented. I was given a chance to be a beta tester ( I did not do any BW) Anyway I can say I did notice the effects of using this SUPPLEMENT - and a HERBAL one so anyone should easily understand what to expect. Did I expect a 300% increase - no not really, but I'm a skeptic. I choose to the try the different natural compounds solo at first and then as stacks. This BN stuff is new to market and so its an unknown. I was fortunate to be given an opportunity to try it and was only asked to keep a log. Here is one snipit from it where I made this comment about the ingrediants and their possible effect to me:
Prolensis (Bulbine Natalensis 10:1) – TBD
Basella Alba (25:1) – suspect this is the reason for the rise in libido.
Methyltheobromine – suspect this is the reason for sustained energy
Vitamin D3 – suspect this is the reason for my overall well being improvement
I cannot deny the product has produced effects for me, perhaps its as simple as because I wanted it to either way I felt great and had no negative sides. I was kinda surprised at the initial price point but then it was on sale for a respectable (as compared to other supp's) price like around $32- so two bottles for aprrox. $65 seems expensive but what isn't now. I follow a blog where people are putting down hundreds of dollars on natural herbs without any issue.
I enjoy'd your post because it should illicit responses and hopefully start some good discussions and/or debate. I think its silly when it turns into an argument because nothing useful is ever learned.
If I hadn't experimented with this product I'd have exactly the same concerns and questions as you and Mr50.
Mr.50
Board Supporter
And just to be clear I am not joining in this discussion/argument I am just repeating here a question I asked Vaughn a while ago and he was going to get back to me when he had more information. I just thought I would follow up.
Mr.50
scoooter
Well-known member
I had seen your same question in that other thread -
just checked no new posts there since mid Dec
broons
Member
I'm not really sold on BN. I took a month worth of ntbm's version and, although they may be dosed slightly differently and have different secondary ingredients, I really wasn't satisfied with it at all
I'm actually still not 100% convinced BN is completely safe for long term use. I've found just as many studies suggesting adverse effects as beneficial. (But I am a supplement whore so I had to try it.) Was told earlier in this thread that it was because the extract used in the studies was an aqueous extract. But I have seen nothing scientific offered stating that a non-aqueous extract is any different, just the word of a supplement maker. And if this is true, I think it is safe to suggest, from a scientific standpoint, that the possible anabolic effects also only exist in the aqueous extract?
I am also wondering if it isn't underdosed. Based on the study, the most effective dose was 50 mg/kg in rats. I weigh 84.37kG which translates, after normalization to BSA, to 684mg. The proprietary blend, which contains 4 ingredients, is 395mg, 342mg of which need to be BN at 2 pills per day.
I'm not bashing anything here, just sharing some things I've pondered about.
I'm actually still not 100% convinced BN is completely safe for long term use. I've found just as many studies suggesting adverse effects as beneficial. (But I am a supplement whore so I had to try it.) Was told earlier in this thread that it was because the extract used in the studies was an aqueous extract. But I have seen nothing scientific offered stating that a non-aqueous extract is any different, just the word of a supplement maker. And if this is true, I think it is safe to suggest, from a scientific standpoint, that the possible anabolic effects also only exist in the aqueous extract?
I am also wondering if it isn't underdosed. Based on the study, the most effective dose was 50 mg/kg in rats. I weigh 84.37kG which translates, after normalization to BSA, to 684mg. The proprietary blend, which contains 4 ingredients, is 395mg, 342mg of which need to be BN at 2 pills per day.
I'm not bashing anything here, just sharing some things I've pondered about.
bdcc
Legend
My update; I asked in another thread when the next set of blood results would come in, he said beta testers are doing them as we speak. I asked what happened to the other 6 alpha testers and await an answer. I sent this only a few hours ago so should have an answer soon enough.
Thread titled "Tropinal 6-9lb gain".
Grambo
Board Sponsor
I don't disagree with you on there not being human trials and hopefully some do come out eventually. The main thing is clinical trials cost a lot, colleges won't do them for free. The research team has to get paid to use all their equipment and time. It's just not cheap or feasible for companies to test every single thing that comes out before putting it out. Also there is a double edged sword when companies do the clinical trials...... people attack them for being biased since they paid for them and nit pick them to death so if people won't believe you either way why spend the money and let some other company come out with it before you. Just another way to look at it as well.
They have blood work and are supposed to be doing some more so thats a step in the right direction. Id also like to see some loggers to some personal BW as well to see how they do. I may try and get some if I can afford it.
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
Working in the industry helps you understand how hard it is to actually conduct clinical studies.
To look at a SINGLE hormone and the changes that happen during a cycle in a realistic study costs 50,000. Want to test 2 different hormones? Looking at 60,000-75,000.
We've done our best to answer the consumers cry for validated blood work. We've never done testing this extensive for any previous product, so please understand we have done much more than the avg company and are doing everything within our power to get you the most proven ingredients possible. Bulbine Natalensis isn't cheap. Very little was grown up until a few months ago, so the raws that are available are in high demand and thus expensive. we are not making as much on Tropinol as we do other products.
As soon as there is the ability to do a proper study on the product which would include multiple different hormones, enzymes, and other aspects tested for.
If you have reservations on the product, I understand. We've all been burned in the past. Take some time, watch some more people use it, and make an opinion. As soon as I have more verified data to give you all, I will.
steveironman
Banned
Very fair response. My comments carried over into an industry wide frustration - justifiably so. Just please, if you provide data - make sure it is done properly..i have actually caught one manufacturer rep (thermolife) actually falsifying supposed bloodwork on a bs herbal test booster containing yet another super purified strain of grass clippings. The again maybe not a surprise from a company whose founder is of such low moral character to begin with.
So again - very fair response. I look forward to data. I honestly feel - at this point - that herbal test boosters are , and have proven to be , a total waste.
criticalbench
Legend
Your maturity on the situation you are concerned about is greatly appreciated and something good to see. If only everyone could conduct themselves with your behavior.
Your thermolife situation is interesting though.. how long ago was that?
steveironman
Banned
May of 2009
scoooter
Well-known member
Your like a CSI...Criminal Supplement Investigator !
steveironman
Banned
Lets put this claim into perspective guys. Body produces what equals 50-70mgs/test /week. so a 347% increase = around 240 mgs/test/week. Thats more than if you took 1cc of 250mg/ml of say test enanthate or cypionate (actual amount of test after allowing for esther) . So you mean to tell me..this herb is equivalent , no wait, even more powerful than 250mgs of test enanthate /week. Then you claim additional benefits of test increase of 80% from another ingredient - so using the same method you do when advertising your product in stack - that would translate to the equivalent of over 300mgs testosterone per week from using your product.
Lets be realistic here .
Time will def tell.
Lets be realistic here .
Time will def tell.
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
We've never claimed the product to be as strong or stronger than steroids.
As I said before, I understand if you have reservations with the product. Time will tell if the product is worth its weight. It I'm right...awesome, we all get a great product
steveironman
Banned
We've never claimed the product to be as strong or stronger than steroids.
As I said before, I understand if you have reservations with the product. Time will tell if the product is worth its weight. It I'm right...awesome, we all get a great product
Well you kind of did. The test increases you are claiming to have proof of are greater than that of steroids. So how didnt you ?
Listen i know u have a job to do..and you cant not back the product. I also know..that you know ..and your company knows...herbal test boosters do not work...if they do anything at all (highly doubtful - historically proven useless in REAL studies) it is so inconsistent..insignificant and short in duration it is meaningless for muscle building purposes.
At any rate time will def tell...and legitimate testing will , so i will at this point leave it at that till a later date. Thanks
ProteinMurder
Member
Dayum, some Supplement company should put this dude on the payroll, for real. He's got REAL good points on herbals. Think were all at about our limit of being sold useless grass in a pill(from a far away mysterious mountain top usually), and being told its the next miracle.
This is the LAST ever herbal I will run, and only cause im making good coin currently and dollars aren't an issue. I have low expectations (no offence Iforce) but I think the absurdity of Pink Magic was the final nail for me. "one last roll of the dice" as they say......:biggthumpup:
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
This is where we have to disagree.
Our in house testing showed a testosterone increase of 273%-323% so far.
if you don't want the product. don't buy it. don't know how else to say it.
Rucksdaddy
Member
This is incorrect. I work for a lab and have blood work done on a regular basis. I have used herbal test boosters such as Free Test, Hypertest, Mass Addicition, etc. and they all boost test and/or decrease estrogen (if that is one of it's functions). I am currently running Test Force and Triazole and will have blood work done within the next week or so. So to say herbals do not work is a false statement. I would be happy to run Tropinol and have my blood work posted showing whether or not it meets claims
SynergyIre
Active member
Actually he has an opinion with no basis to back it up. Any idiot off the street can (and does) shout that kind of argument, and not just for supplements. Why would anyone hire someone with those kinds of generalizations? It's no better then saying the government is out to get you or claiming non-organic food will make your body toxic and kill you.
These are extremes on the spectrum which are entering crackpotville. There are legit herbals. In the same way, there are tons of people who have gone on PH cycle, ****ed it up via less then ideal diet, poor workout and poor PCT. These people will then say PH are BS in the same way.
Stick with companies you trust, who provide blood work (like iForce and DS) and educate yourself on which herbals are BS for gains and which work.
Mr.50
Board Supporter
Hey I bought some already to try later and I already ran Phytoserms-347 for a month so I will be able to compare.
With that said the only blood work I have seen (with reference to the numbers you stated above) have been in testers who where testosterone deficient prior to using Tropinol. If that is not the case please correct me. I am not saying it doesnt work, I am just saying that large increases from people who are test deficient at the beginning of the trial can not be extrapolated to people who have normal range test levels prior to the trial.
Mr.50
steveironman
Banned
Show Me .....
Thats all i have to say.
I suspect you wont...
I suspect you cant....
Put your money where your mouth is ...before and after bloodwork..i invite you to post any at all ....right now....surely you have it if you say you work in a lab and have tested out these products.
SynergyIre
Active member
:wtf:
Stop being a douche, honestly... Sounds like you have a serious axe to grind here. By all means ask for blood works out of curiosity with at least some sort of open mind. With your attitude you'll probably get them and say they're BS anyways. Why should he put in effort when you're just going to, and already have, insulted him?
steveironman
Banned
Actually the are a myriad of published studies an humans proving herbal test booster after herbal test booster useless. I would THINK if a company makes a ridiculous claim such as these grass clippings increase your testosterone more than a 300mg injection of test enanthate - which btw IS exactly what they claim it does - they should have to be able to substantiate it. With real full panel blood work results (before and after) available to publish BEFORE they make that marketing claim. I mean how else could they make such a claim? And surely they have looked at the duration of this supposed test increase and make certain it lasts long enough to substantiate the advertised benefits of the product ( not that thats necessary - the "increase" is so unlikely). I dunno ...who is the crackpot...me or someone who just nods there head and says oh looks like a good product without thinking it through. Someone who says Oh some herbal test boosters work....not being able to prove THAT statement at all. In your experience ...which herbals supps "work for gains" as you put it?
We WILL find out the real deal on this supp........
Are you serious? Calling me a douche? Talk about insulting people.... Wise up my friend..someone claims to work in a lab..get blood work all the time..claims all these herbals test boosters work when every human study ever published says they dont. I ask him to prove his statements and I'M a douche ? As I said ...wise up .....
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
There is no need for continued aggression on your part.
We all understand your point of view.
We all understand your point of view.
steveironman
Banned
^^^ If you are referring to me i am not being aggressive. I am not calling anyone a douche or an idiot as i was called (perhaps you are referring to that poster - in which case i apologize). i wont stoop that low.
As i said we will find out the real deal on this supp....
Is that something i will pursue aggressively...im tending to think so at this point.
As i said we will find out the real deal on this supp....
Is that something i will pursue aggressively...im tending to think so at this point.
Rucksdaddy
Member
I have my numbers for Free Test and for Test Charge. Are the numbers for either one of those sufficient, or do you require the print out?
steveironman
Banned
^^^ before (baseline) and after ....printout of course..i mean working in a lab and all thats no prob im sure.
AZMIDLYF
Legend
Here is the thread with the hormone panels for Tropinol:
Invalid Link Removed
I can appreciate your efforts,but your stance is very negative and seems closed minded.
steveironman
Banned
^^^^^Interesting results...provided by a chiropractor !!! *L*
I can say for certain now - we WILL def see ..for real...and everyone will know the results. This i promise. Make your money on these grass clippings while you can ...All i can say is buyer beware - just look at the ridiculous claims - use your head...save your money. That will be proven to be your best course of action. I'll bet on it...i'll bet BIG on it ans so will a few others who def know.
I can say for certain now - we WILL def see ..for real...and everyone will know the results. This i promise. Make your money on these grass clippings while you can ...All i can say is buyer beware - just look at the ridiculous claims - use your head...save your money. That will be proven to be your best course of action. I'll bet on it...i'll bet BIG on it ans so will a few others who def know.
Rucksdaddy
Member
So just to be clear, I am going to post the results which run through the analyzers into our medical software. I am going to take out my name and the hospital name from the report (employees are not supposed to be running their blood work for obvious reasons). I will use my Test Charge results since this was the most recent stack.
Once this is done and I prove that you are incorrect as I previously stated, you will then admit you are wrong to the forum, correct? Don't waste my time if you are going to continue with your agenda.
more knowledge
Member
You act as if your wages are being garnished once a month for two bottles of tropinol against your will.No one is forcing you to do anything here,just don't buy it if it's not for you.Can't understand why you're so worked up.Should there be a little more proof of such extreme test elevation being claimed via bloods.....maybe.Give them a little time,they just took delivery on the stuff.In the mean time go take a benzo.....er i mean phenibut.
steveironman
Banned
OK ..I'll play your game ...Just post the blood work results (emhp included of course - real lab work not analyzed data). Your baseline bloodwork...then after the product ..how much you took ...how long after ingestion blood work was taken etc.
Oh and when i expose this fraud you are perpetrating ...then will YOU apologize. Ive been doing a little technical digging .....
You let me know if we want to continue this.....
Rucksdaddy
Member
It's not a game, and there is no emhp. It's run on analyzers that are CAP and JHACHO certified. These will be results that are used in the hospital and outpatient physician offices. This is exactly why I said don't waste my time.
Garyboy
Member
Awesome thread. I think deep down everyone in this thread knows Steve is on point. I'm sure Bulbine will increase test, but not to the point where they're making a difference in body composition.
Think about it. If these herbal test boosters were as effective as they claimed, they'd be all over the news and would be more well known than creatine.
Words from someone who has tried numerous ones with no noticeable results.
I truly hope Bulbine is as good as it's being hyped, as we all win big time if it is. For now, I'm going to have to side with Steve.
Think about it. If these herbal test boosters were as effective as they claimed, they'd be all over the news and would be more well known than creatine.
Words from someone who has tried numerous ones with no noticeable results.
I truly hope Bulbine is as good as it's being hyped, as we all win big time if it is. For now, I'm going to have to side with Steve.
ProteinMurder
Member
Well said. Steve made one mistake: he dared to question a Supp companies claims. Strictly forbidden on any Forum. If you do you are a "troublemaker" or a "douchebag" or a hater.
Vengeance187
Member
Well, he's partly correct, he just didn't say it right. There are studies showing that certain herbal test boosters do just that, but even those studies show no increase in the rate of muscle growth. He's right that they don't increase muscle growth, but wrong if he meant they don't boost test. The increased test just leads to less fat gain at best. If anything test boosters should be used on a cut, not when trying to gain. Fat burning seems to be the only real effect herbal test boosters exhibit.(Other than libido of course)
Vengeance187
Member
What were your results?
southpaw23
Well-known member
Not here for the drama, just wanting to know if any "independent-non company affiliated" blood work is available on these bulbine products?
I'm kind of skeptical myself, though I've heard from a few different reputable sources that bulbine is legit.
I'm kind of skeptical myself, though I've heard from a few different reputable sources that bulbine is legit.
SynergyIre
Active member
I have no problem with him questioning the product, that's perfectly healthy. It's his attitude I have a problem with. In his mind he's already right, he only asks for evidence or bloodwork so he can mock it and rationalise why he's right. He's not interested in learning or the truth, he's simply interested proving that he's right. That's what bothers me. If he came from a place of actually curiosity in knowing the truth then we wouldn't have a problem.
Someone offers to their own bloodwork as their own personal evidence, to actually put in some real work beyond being a keyboard jockey, and in turn is accused of playing games and told he'll be the one saying sorry, because he's already wrong even before he's shown it. How can he already be wrong?
To me he's more interested in stirring things up then actually contributing to a thread. I hope this will be my last post on this.... back on topic
SynergyIre
Active member
In humans, not that I've seen, but would be happy to be proven wrong. The person that comes to mind to ask would be Anthony Roberts, but maybe iForce can chime in on it.
Mr.50
Board Supporter
I posted them over in a thread started by Broons. There was a few blood tests that showed a slight increase in test which could have been from normal variation.
Mr.50
steveironman
Banned
I have no problem with him questioning the product, that's perfectly healthy. It's his attitude I have a problem with. In his mind he's already right, he only asks for evidence or bloodwork so he can mock it and rationalise why he's right. He's not interested in learning or the truth, he's simply interested proving that he's right. That's what bothers me. If he came from a place of actually curiosity in knowing the truth then we wouldn't have a problem.
Someone offers to their own bloodwork as their own personal evidence, to actually put in some real work beyond being a keyboard jockey, and in turn is accused of playing games and told he'll be the one saying sorry, because he's already wrong even before he's shown it. How can he already be wrong?
To me he's more interested in stirring things up then actually contributing to a thread. I hope this will be my last post on this.... back on topic
He can already be wrong because he is posting from the same exact ip address as 4 other individuals ..one of which is a manufacturers rep. (amazing these days what info technology can provide) You do the math and figure it out. Unfortunately..here on this site...it happens all the time. A rep posts some bs and miraculously 4 "members" instantly pledge their allegiance to the product. You would think the board would crack down on this..unfortunately in this case..on this board ..its solely how they pay their bills.Go figure....... Last time i called a rep to task ..caught him red handed in an out and out lie here...Actually altering studies to appear to be on humans (it was on rats) and then falsifying bloodwork (crazy huh) ..the thread was deleted here and i was suspended for 2 days. Thats Crazy!! Now im not putting Vaughn in this category by any means,....however.... his company should be held accountable for outrageous claims and be able to substantiate them with LEGITMAITE blood/labwork. They cannot...and i seriously suspect never will be able too. As i said the truth will be told on this product. The unbiased , 100% truth.
steveironman
Banned
Im not surprised. No where even close to beneficial increases at all. No where near 347% ....In fact as you stated..any increase at all was within the normal variation range (that means without any exogenous influence at all the body normally reaches these levels and varies this much)
You honesty is appreciated.