IBE is in TROUBLE!!!!!!!

[CDB]

Well whatever happens with testing and whatever hypotheticals get put out there, the bottom line is IBE said they were going to post test results, for Havoc I believe, then didn't and said they were waiting for a chain of custody letter, then nothing. As as has been said, both sides supposedly had results to post and no one has come through with anything yet and everyone is giving reasons why not. Which is all the more reason perhaps people who insist on buying untested orals with jack**** known about their safety profiles should start doing it from other companies, or stop doing something so blatantly stupid to begin with, until someone has the balls and the integrity to post some damn thing that's verifiable. Even if it's just an apology.

I'm going to watch Dawn of the Dead Extended Edition now.

I don't understand, what's the imperative again? How can IBE refute something before it even exists? That is a formal absurdity because it defies the law of contradiction. There is no need to defend anything until it is actually attacked, right? When some tangible results replace the hot air blowing around, IBE will then have a reason to defend itself. They are totally innocent until then and will need to be proved otherwise (which ain't gonna happen.) They have no need to post squat just because a few jerk offs wanna start trouble. I'm actually glad that they have not dignified that kind of crap by posting any results, but have also advised them to respond promptly if that does occur, leaving NO DOUBT what the real deal is going on here. It just sux because while the consumer usually profits from the extra testing, everybody will actually get hurt from this guy forcing the issue because it puts a huge bull's-eye on these products and can only bring trouble. Why should he care, he made his money already and sells protein powders now! Hope you guys like protein because this kind of publicity is what will make it the only option here pretty soon. Hmmm, good business move, if it doesn't backfire really really bad that is.

Let's think about results for a minute. For example, take a compound with a molecular weight of 321 that possesses an episulfide and a hydroxyl function, which are it's two most libel groups in a GC/MS fragmentation. When injected into a testing system (reference my GC/MS tutorial on p.10), what would be the most likely result? The parent less the hydroxyl less the episulfide which would strip a proton with it (320.53-17.01-32.07-1.01=270.45~270) leaving an ion which would resemble the non alcoholic version of DMT (2-ene). Also, imagine that this product is 99+% pure and that the results and logs are stellar by almost all who try it.

Now imagine a hypothetical product that gives about 15 peaks when tested! Yeah, 15 different compounds in it and may not even contain the label ingredient at all. Not only that, but 2 of those peaks look as though they could be, well, something not good if you are sports tested. Plus there is a major impurity to top it all off! Imagine that this is a compound that you had been told was balls-on accurate only to find out that was a bull**** stunt designed to bash a product that was actually way more pure. That would be pretty messed up, huh? Before you judge IBE for anything else they have done or said, just wait guys! You will be totally enlightened and enraged by the claims this guy has made, because you will see clearly the nasty, greedy, utterly deceptive nature of the lies he tried to feed you. Like I said, the truth will be seem, it just sux that some people have to self-destruct and risk the whole industry to do it. But once he posts those results, that will be the only resolution I suppose, because then the truth will need to be exposed to defend their product. Oh well, so be it. As for myself, I am just sick of it all at this point and damn sure will never buy another PF product again knowing what I now know about the management.

See ya on Monday fellas.

 

[poopypants]

Amazing, nothing has been posted. That's probably because testing was never done. It's the only thing that makes sense. They never sent anything out for testing, this has all been a big ass lie. Too funny.

and yet you expect us to belive you as well???? it plays to both sides poncho wheres your results from oooohhh..... 3 weeks ago?? and dont say i told you a 100x cause to me that means "i lied to you a 100x" im sure your facade is wearin thin to others as well and YOU have spearheaded all this crap, so if we dont have our supps in the next year or 2 then what was all that work you said you did in trying to prolong the ban for??? HUH what you mean you were supporting illegal substances then but knocking others for it now??? even though they aint on the DSHEA list or the FDA so what makes them so illegal ???? :hammer:

 

[jmh80]

If JMH80 wants to sit and play chemist, he better line up a bunch of equipment, which will cost a fortune. Santa doesn't bring that type of equipment. So lets say you and JMH both start a company at the same time. You have a million bucks in seed money to start. Lets say JMH happens to find a lab where he has all the equipment and stuff he needs at no cost. You hire me to consult with you as you and JMH want to make the same type of product. Here is how it goes down.

We sit down and talk about what you want to make. I sent 5 emails out at midnight. 48 hours later I'll have half a dozen quotes for people that can make what we want to make (even if it is novel) and likely have a sample within 7 business days. We'll tell chinaman to send our sample to X address (which will be a lab address) and have it tested. If it comes out good, we order our fist lot of material. Send to lab for verification and then go into production. The entire time of this process is roughly 1 month to us having material.

JMH spends his first two weeks perfecting his molecule. He then sends it to someone in china who isn't going to give a rats us what he sent them. He then follows the same process we do. That two weeks he played with, just cost him a HUGE market share. So while he's playing chemist, you and I are taking PO's at the distributors and making cash. He feels a sense of accomplishment because he did his own deal. The chinese didn't care, they were doing it the way they wanted anyway. Hell, he likely would buy material from the same chem house and not even know it.

So the moral of the story. Sure, go create your own crap. I'll take the easy way out and let people who are more qualified do it. The key to a smart business man is knowing to hire the people that are the best at what they do. There is a reason we have ONE company in the industry with a real lab/chemist and about 200 others that don't.

There's a reason I'm a good chemical engineer.
I do make good business decisions though. (You can ask the managers at our headquarters in Houston. )

You are right - getting a product to the correct market share before anyone else means lots and lots of $$$.

Sadly - as you mention - good science doesn't "rule the day" in this industry.
It is what it is.

 

[poopypants]

Please find ONE post where I said epi didn't work.

ummm

I'm really wonder if his epi bottle has estrogen in it

so why would you say that??? or am i supposed to all a sudden take serious talk now and try to weed out where you were joking?

i belive what i respect and you are far from there.

 

[jmh80]

Well by the looks of this mess Mike maybe it would'nt be such a great business move to just send a chemical structure off to china and have them make it happen so to say. If one were to provide a proper synthesis that was designed with good purification steps then maybe we would'nt have such crap on the market.

All I'm saying is it looks as though the fact that China made these chemicals is the basis for the bashing. So what good business sense is it to get the chemical out in as fast of a time as possible when a company supposidly has no idea what chemical they are getting anyway.

I agree with what you are saying.

From what I can tell - this isn't how the supp industry operates with regard to THESE type of compounds (not CEE, protein, glutamine, BCAA's, etc).
It is what it is.
:think:

 

[poopypants]

I mean hell, IBE can't even post a
single testing result of their own. Hmmmmm

heres your answer,

I don't understand, what's the imperative again? How can IBE refute something before it even exists? That is a formal absurdity because it defies the law of contradiction. There is no need to defend anything until it is actually attacked, right? When some tangible results replace the hot air blowing around, IBE will then have a reason to defend itself. They are totally innocent until then and will need to be proved otherwise (which ain't gonna happen.) They have no need to post squat just because a few jerk offs wanna start trouble.

AND?

 

[poopypants]

I'm curious as to how 3AD is already illegal. Does anybody have an updated version of the ban-list?

whoa who said this??? and this thread is bout epi.... are you gettin confused or am i?

 

[jmh80]

I'll say I don't hate Mike - I'm honestly trying not to flame him or start sh*t.

He's an excellent business man.
He and I have different perspectives of the world, at least from what I can tell.

Mike's probably bumping Nas' "Hate Me Now" while reading this thread though. :icon_lol:

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Right here poopypants.

I hate to tell you, but this compound was known about 2 years ago. The reason why other companies didn't come out with it? Simple, it's illegal. Gaspari looked at it (hence why bruce knew where it was made) as did designer. This is NOT something new.

Anybody have that ban-list?

 

[kwyckemynd00]

whoa who said this??? and this thread is bout epi.... are you gettin confused or am i?

Oh, my bad..I meant epistane lol

 

[poopypants]

Oh, my bad..I meant epistane lol

thank goodness, you nearly dashed all my dreams before they were realized with one post!.....

n so in answer to your question i have no clue how he claims theyre illegal... maybe hes insinuating that whats "really" in there is illegal, either way im sure he'll talk it like truth and then forget where the proof is.... someone got that ban list for us?

 

[jmh80]

Kwyck - as far as I know the structure wasn't published until Havoc was put out online.

Hence - the FDA wouldn't have known to ban it until a few months ago.

They ban specific molecules - not classes of molecules.

 

[1Fast400]

so why would you say that??? or am i supposed to all a sudden take serious talk now and try to weed out where you were joking?

i belive what i respect and you are far from there.

WOW you have lost your mind. I don't think a SINGLE person on this board took that comment as me saying Epi is bad. On top of that you've been bashing me for weeks and the ONLY "proof" you have of me bashing the product is making fun of you? I mean, look at your post, I'll let the posters judge by that.

and yet you expect us to belive you as well????

I'm not going to say anything about the results. I'm simply going to post them, that's all.

it plays to both sides poncho wheres your results from oooohhh..... 3 weeks ago?? and dont say i told you a 100x cause to me that means "i lied to you a 100x" im sure your facade is wearin thin to others as well

You know, I would love to spend 5 minutes and go back about 10 pages and show the EXACT post I made where the product went on backorder, jawhawk validated the emails from the lab showing I had initiated the testing but island supplements had it on backorder. I then offered 100 bucks a bottle for epi, which IBE threw a fit over. I FINALLY, thanks to a board member, found a retailer that had it in michigan. It was ordered last week and delivered on wednesday. I posted the email from the head chemist saying the results would be coming on monday. Now, if this was all a big show, why in the hell would I give an exact day, by the chemist, to be able to post the results? I have told you 100x, you have the worst goldfish syndrome I've ever seen.

and YOU have spearheaded all this crap, so if we dont have our supps in the next year or 2 then what was all that work you said you did in trying to prolong the ban for??? HUH what you mean you were supporting illegal substances then but knocking others for it now??? even though they aint on the DSHEA list or the FDA so what makes them so illegal ????

You are amazingly dense. The ban was specific to PH. The first bill that came up, the durbin bill, wanted to ban everything under the sun. Rick Collins fought VERY hard to get this limited in scope, even going to washington and speaking directly with congress. At the TIME we sold them, they were legal. The government was GOING to ban them and a few of us spent money in an attempt to save some. We knew we'd lose 1-T and m1t. We wanted to try to save 1-AD has PA had proof of it in the food supply. Alas, the government didn't care, they wanted it gone.


One thing you guys have to realize. Just because something isn't on a list, doesn't make it legal. Just because it is in the food supply, doesn't make it legal. Right now ANY new compound has to be submitted and approved by the fda. They have 45 days to respond to your request, if you get no response, you are allowed to produce it. If they disapprove, they'll contact you. That is the LEGAL way to do things.

JMH, you're level headed, got no issues with you at all. Just poopbrains here.

 

[friction515]

In this specific schedule. If it is a schedule one drug and an analoge of it is put out such as these for the intent of it doing what an already known compound in the same family is able to do then it is just as illegal as the parent compound.

Not that this has anything to do with this, just a little trivial information.

 

[TripDog]

my cat's breath smells like cat food.

:rofl: thank god some humor on this thread...:clap2:

 

[anabolicrhino]

It seems like a lot of the hostility is being generated by non-business type people who were under the impression that ethical chemists are the people who run this industry.

The dirty little secret is out. The industry is run by businessmen who want to make money.

China is the best option for mass manucfature of just about anything that can be manufactured

Unfortunately, they are not so advanced in quality control testing, in fact they rarely do it at all. The lack of testing allows them to deliver the goods for a much more attractive price. This is the main competitive edge that China has over domestic production houses.

Now the problems start when a businessman strikes a deal based upon numbers that do not include testing. He has two choices ship it and let the end user be the beta-tester(this happens a lot) or hire a independent testing facility to create a proper COA,
which costs money and time. The independent testing could in fact absorb the assumed profit margin for the businessman if he did not factor it before making the deal.

So, it becomes a roll of the dice for the smaller player because his very existence can hinge on delivering the product on time at a profit. This is what causes people to do things like lie, stall and commit fraud, because your reputation is useless if your out of business.(nice guy,no money)

Its the people who have done this a few times which are more reliable because they have more to lose in the reputation category.

 

[poopypants]

Just poopbrains here.

way to be an adult, and you say im not keepin my cool? lay off the high and mighty **** and like i said maybe youd get respect. poopbrains lol that was pretty good though.:gas:

whatever fast ill let you have your day, just wait for the i told ya so on this one bro.

 

[CDB]

In this specific schedule. If it is a schedule one drug and an analoge of it is put out such as these for the intent of it doing what an already known compound in the same family is able to do then it is just as illegal as the parent compound.

Not that this has anything to do with this, just a little trivial information.

I don't think steroids are schedule one because they have well documented medical uses.

 

[CDB]

It seems like a lot of the hostility is being generated by non-business type people who were under the impression that ethical chemists are the people who run this industry.

The dirty little secret is out. The industry is run by businessmen who want to make money.

They wouldn't have any money to make if the demand weren't there for these supplements. People want them, the current model of business is essentially the result of their grey market status.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Kwyck - as far as I know the structure wasn't published until Havoc was put out online.

Hence - the FDA wouldn't have known to ban it until a few months ago.

They ban specific molecules - not classes of molecules.

That's what I thought, but 1fast400 said its not a new molecule (not including Vida) and that as long as 2yrs ago Gaspari and DS said no to it b/c it was already illegal.

Meh, w/e...I do what I want!

 

[1Fast400]

I've spent 5 years sourcing crap in china. Over time I've built 3-4 great relationships with companies. Now a small company like IBE might spent 20k a month with a supply house in china. I've spent well over 7 figures a year for over 3 years. When you do that level business, these suppliers can't really afford to screw you over. The guys that stand the biggest chance of getting crap, are these small time, small order guys. As an example, if I order ALCAR and I move 200kg a month as a random number. I would order 1000kg from a supplier and have it boated in. That is simply 1 item out of 60+ I would order. I talked my suppliers into opening US warehouses. I could commit to 200kg a month over 5 months. I would pay every month, for 200kg, regardless of what I used (unless I used more). I can do this because of the relationships I've built over the years. On top of the fact that almost every supplier I've dealt with as flown to my home office to speak with me. Buying in those huge lots really limits your QC issues because so much is being made at one time. You can test the entire lot, usually ever 500kg and have a good marker of quality

These are the types of things these small companies can't do.

 

[1Fast400]

I know for a fact designer had looked at it. They simply didn't have the money to come out with it. When the ban went through there was a MAD rush to make something to replace the PH. That is when both Matt and Bruce consulted with Rick Collins about the legal aspect of this compound. Matt was the one that had found it years earlier, he just never made it. Remember, they were doing superdrol at the time.

 

[jmh80]

I don't think steroids are schedule one because they have well documented medical uses.

C III, CDB.

 

[friction515]

I'm aware of why they are not schedule one I was just responding to jmh's statement about not making families of chemicals illegal just specific structures.

 

[friction515]

I've spent 5 years sourcing crap in china. Over time I've built 3-4 great relationships with companies. Now a small company like IBE might spent 20k a month with a supply house in china. I've spent well over 7 figures a year for over 3 years. When you do that level business, these suppliers can't really afford to screw you over. The guys that stand the biggest chance of getting crap, are these small time, small order guys. As an example, if I order ALCAR and I move 200kg a month as a random number. I would order 1000kg from a supplier and have it boated in. That is simply 1 item out of 60+ I would order. I talked my suppliers into opening US warehouses. I could commit to 200kg a month over 5 months. I would pay every month, for 200kg, regardless of what I used (unless I used more). I can do this because of the relationships I've built over the years. On top of the fact that almost every supplier I've dealt with as flown to my home office to speak with me. Buying in those huge lots really limits your QC issues because so much is being made at one time. You can test the entire lot, usually ever 500kg and have a good marker of quality

These are the types of things these small companies can't do.

Does this not further prove the point that a good synthesis should be designed by the company, especially if small, before going ahead with having China make the compound?

By the way all you need is pen and paper to design a synthesis not a million dollar lab. In fact you need not have a lab or any chemicals whatsoever.

 

[jmh80]

Does this not further prove the point that a good synthesis should be designed by the company, especially if small, before going ahead with having China make the compound?

By the way all you need is pen and paper to design a synthesis not a million dollar lab. In fact you need not have a lab or any chemicals whatsoever.

It should in theory. Theory doesn't always translate to practice.
Again - due diligence is in the eye of the beholder.

If I conducted myself on a daily basis as mentioned above - y'all would be SERIOUSLY crying for motor gasoline up and down the east coast because my plant would be down left and freaking right.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I know for a fact designer had looked at it.

Well, considering its just a 17aa epithiostanol I'm sure tons of people had since epithiostanol has been around.

I was just more curious about the fact that you said it was already illegal so I just wanted to hunt down the ban list. Adding the methyl at the 17a position changes it, so the DSHEA would have had to included methyl epithiostanol.

 

[poopypants]

down left and freaking right.

you forgot UP

 

[friction515]

True you would have to look further at yields I guess I'm backpedaling now. Damn me and my foolish faith in organic synthesis.

 

[1Fast400]

I was just more curious about the fact that you said it was already illegal so I just wanted to hunt down the ban list.

Based off Dshea, it is illegal. I doubt this is found in the food supply. Even if it is, there are a lot of other things an ingredient must meet. See my previous post about fda submission, etc.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

you forgot UP

up, down, left, right, up, down, left, right, a, start

 

[1Fast400]

No need to do all stuff before hand, spend a few hundred bucks and get your sample testing. Handing something to china on HOW to make something, doesn't mean they'll follow it. That is my point. Just do the testing afterwords and it's not a big deal

 

[friction515]

But what do you do if you buy 20 thousand of product and it tests impure? Will they go ahead and take it back?

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Probably not. Industry and lab chemistry are way different due to the fact that industrial chemists can greatly alter factors that the typical lab can't. E.G. Huge changes in heat and pressure can make reactions go that will never go in a lab under "normal" conditions.

 

[1Fast400]

That is exactly why, IMO, I don't think IBE tested their stuff. They didn't WANT to know if it was wrong. In most cases, with a small company, they have to prepay. So they'd be out the money more than likely. That is why new small companies stand the biggest chance of having something like this happen. Everything I have is net 30-60-90-120 (depends on account) so if it tests bad, it doesn't get paid.

 

[neoborn]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to 1Fast400 again.

Well I tried, thanks for being helpful.

Let me preface by saying that I'm speaking in regard to the nutrition industry only. When speaking with people within the US that attempt to make compounds, the chinese have been more capable at making novel items faster. I've seen it in my personal experience as have the people I've worked with.



Dude, nobody in our industry even knows what a patent is haha.



If JMH80 wants to sit and play chemist, he better line up a bunch of equipment, which will cost a fortune. Santa doesn't bring that type of equipment. So lets say you and JMH both start a company at the same time. You have a million bucks in seed money to start. Lets say JMH happens to find a lab where he has all the equipment and stuff he needs at no cost. You hire me to consult with you as you and JMH want to make the same type of product. Here is how it goes down.

We sit down and talk about what you want to make. I sent 5 emails out at midnight. 48 hours later I'll have half a dozen quotes for people that can make what we want to make (even if it is novel) and likely have a sample within 7 business days. We'll tell chinaman to send our sample to X address (which will be a lab address) and have it tested. If it comes out good, we order our fist lot of material. Send to lab for verification and then go into production. The entire time of this process is roughly 1 month to us having material.

JMH spends his first two weeks perfecting his molecule. He then sends it to someone in china who isn't going to give a rats us what he sent them. He then follows the same process we do. That two weeks he played with, just cost him a HUGE market share. So while he's playing chemist, you and I are taking PO's at the distributors and making cash. He feels a sense of accomplishment because he did his own deal. The chinese didn't care, they were doing it the way they wanted anyway. Hell, he likely would buy material from the same chem house and not even know it.

So the moral of the story. Sure, go create your own crap. I'll take the easy way out and let people who are more qualified do it. The key to a smart business man is knowing to hire the people that are the best at what they do. There is a reason we have ONE company in the industry with a real lab/chemist and about 200 others that don't.

 

[neoborn]

Just to state my case clearly to all parties involved in this debacle:

I for one call all of you out: MM,Beejis,PA,Carcinogen,RPN,IBE,Dr.D and anyone else who goes on and on about this current contraversy ( no not this one in this thread but where this started ), NO ONE NOT ONE OF YOU HAS THE PROOF OR THE BALLS TO POST THE RESULTS OF ANY CLAIMS ANY OF YOU HAVE MADE so with that said enjoy keep pumping this free press for the benefit of your pocket books, good job, good ideas and I hope it has made you all wealthy.

 

[CDB]

I've never even been a peripheral part of a debacle before. This is cool.

 

[jmh80]

Probably not. Industry and lab chemistry are way different due to the fact that industrial chemists can greatly alter factors that the typical lab can't. E.G. Huge changes in heat and pressure can make reactions go that will never go in a lab under "normal" conditions.

My reactors run at 1650 degrees F and less than 20 psig - with residence times of less than 2 tenths of a second.
It might even be less than that as reactor fouls - more velocity due to a lower cross sectional area with the same mass flow.
(Plug flow reactors.)

Edit - forgot to say that lab duplication of this was god-awful for about 40 years or so. In the '80's we made advances enough to duplicate the reaction on a small scale. Took a Herculean effort out of the R&D folks to make that happen though.

 

[bkprice]

So sense Mike now owns a supplements company, wasn't his action unethical? He is not a concerned consumer, he is a competitor in the same industry.

He claims what IBE was unethical, yet he never mentioned he was buying a supplement company while he was making all these IBE bashing post and acted like he had nothing to gain.

I don't believe for one bit this has anything to do with him being concerned for us at all, its a marketing move that now has all of us paying attention to him. Dr.D has been here for a long time, so why did Mike feel he needed to chime in now? Easy, he needs to get people looking at him and his new company.

 

[TeamSavage]

As someone who runs a supplement company myself (not fitness-related), I will say:

1) CofA's provided by the manufacturer are worth sh!t. You can't trust them.

2) Having an independent lab verify purity is NOT that expensive. It costs a couple hundred bucks for simple compounds to maybe a thousand for difficult compounds. Definitely NOT a profit-killer.

3) Most supp companies in the fitness industry (or in the supp industry in general) rely on manufacturer CofA's (unfortunately) and do not have compounds independently tested. When you're dealing with simple, run-of-the-mill stuff like protein or creatine, this usually isn't a tragedy, since these usually test up to spec. When you're dealing with novel or less common compounds (like hormones), failure to independently analyze leads to disaster. I don't know if this statement applies to IBE or RPN... I have some suspicions on who was responsible and who wasn't, but I'll keep those to myself.

4) China is definitely the place to get any chemical for cheap (even somewhat novel or difficult chems), and I don't blame companies for doing it. But I've found material from Chinese suppliers to be FAR more likely not to test to spec (in other words, to not contain what it's supposed to), which makes independent analysis that much more important. For example, I recently was looking for a plant extract standardized to contain 3% of a fairly unstable compound. The two samples from Chinese suppliers tested out to <0.01% and about 0.2%. A sample from a European pharm-grade supplier tested to 3.1%. Using the European pharm supplier doubled the manufacturing cost of my product, but you get what you pay for.

5) On a personal note, making sure that supplements meet their label claims is by far the most important issue, at least for me. All the mudslinging is distasteful, but it's worth it if the material finally gets independently analyzed and verified like it should have been from the start, and we can know for sure what the hell is in the bottles.

 

[TeamSavage]

up, down, left, right, up, down, left, right, a, start

Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right Select Start

 

[poopypants]

As someone who runs a supplement company myself (not fitness-related), I will say:

1) CofA's provided by the manufacturer are worth sh!t. You can't trust them.

2) Having an independent lab verify purity is NOT that expensive. It costs a couple hundred bucks for simple compounds to maybe a thousand for difficult compounds. Definitely NOT a profit-killer.

3) Most supp companies in the fitness industry (or in the supp industry in general) rely on manufacturer CofA's (unfortunately) and do not have compounds independently tested. When you're dealing with simple, run-of-the-mill stuff like protein or creatine, this usually isn't a tragedy, since these usually test up to spec. When you're dealing with novel or less common compounds (like hormones), failure to independently analyze leads to disaster. I don't know if this statement applies to IBE or RPN... I have some suspicions on who was responsible and who wasn't, but I'll keep those to myself.

4) China is definitely the place to get any chemical for cheap (even somewhat novel or difficult chems), and I don't blame companies for doing it. But I've found material from Chinese suppliers to be FAR more likely not to test to spec (in other words, to not contain what it's supposed to), which makes independent analysis that much more important. For example, I recently was looking for a plant extract standardized to contain 3% of a fairly unstable compound. The two samples from Chinese suppliers tested out to <0.01% and about 0.2%. A sample from a European pharm-grade supplier tested to 3.1%. Using the European pharm supplier doubled the manufacturing cost of my product, but you get what you pay for.

5) On a personal note, making sure that supplements meet their label claims is by far the most important issue, at least for me. All the mudslinging is distasteful, but it's worth it if the material finally gets independently analyzed and verified like it should have been from the start, and we can know for sure what the hell is in the bottles.

first off, nice post but mainly i just wanted to say ive always loved your sig line. perfect esp for this industry.

 

[poopypants]

So sense Mike now owns a supplements company, wasn't his action unethical? He is not a concerned consumer, he is a competitor in the same industry.

He claims what IBE was unethical, yet he never mentioned he was buying a supplement company while he was making all these IBE bashing post and acted like he had nothing to gain.

I don't believe for one bit this has anything to do with him being concerned for us at all, its a marketing move that now has all of us paying attention to him. Dr.D has been here for a long time, so why did Mike feel he needed to chime in now? Easy, he needs to get people looking at him and his new company.

thats exactly what ive been sayin, but im thick headed, an idiot and poopybrained so how could i possibly discern this throughout this whole fiasco. Although im sure were not the only ones thinking this. Just wait and well see, really though i feel we'll be doin nothin but waitin. this all just drives me crazy :fool2:

 

[Minus83]

the real winner is the next supplement company that makes a clone of one of these products and keeps their ****ing mouth shut and lets us throw our money at them.

 

[DAdams91982]

Do me favor "doctor", read the fvcking rules before you open your fvcking mouth.

"As of now, the legalities of Epistane/Havoc are still unknown therefore do not fall under these rules. Since they are sold by the largest of retailers the legalities of these substances are unknown, therefore they are an exception for now."

Invalid Link Removed


If IBE shipped NP an actual batch, guess what would be sold just like it is as BN. Maybe it you clicked on IBE's banner and the second tab in you would see....Oh, Its Epistane selling for $59.95. There goes that theory huh "doc"?



I got your witness right here. If you want to keep opening your mouth especially insinuating about me now, then things will change here for you.

Bobo,
How about you just shut this whole worthless thread and any subspawns down. This **** can be left over at bb.com.

Now can I get a witness???

Adams

 

[Jayhawkk]

Let's not forget what the original argument is about and avoid trying to bring others not even associated with this issue, in on this.

 

[DAdams91982]

Let's not forget what the original argument is about and avoid trying to bring others not even associated with this issue, in on this.

I swear Jay, are you a rep, are you a mod, what is it... your color seems to change like a womans mood!!!

Adams

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I swear Jay, are you a rep, are you a mod, what is it... your color seems to change like a womans mood!!!

Adams

Sam traded a player and 2 draft picks but the player didn't pass the physical so the trade was nullified.

 

[Jayhawkk]

I'm here to confuse everyone and keep you guessing. I'm a represenative of a moderator. My colors change to whoever pays for the hotel room and Bobo won me this weekend.