i am for phil

[Zac Speed]

You said they have equal rights then proved they do not with your own words and now you are asking me what is wrong with that?

Simple, you have already proven they do not have equal rights. Close enough or they can do this which is somewhat similar in some locations is not equal. Just as blacks and whites in separate but equal schools was not equal. It's the exact same logic that was used to promote segregation. Not a shred of difference.

You dont have a right to marriage.. The church has to agree to marry you. If they dont agree because they don't support homosexuality then wouldn't it be the gay couple stepping in the toes of the church and being intolerant of their beliefs?

 

[Geoforce]

You dont have a right to marriage.. The church has to agree to marry you. If they dont agree because they don't support homosexuality then wouldn't it be the gay couple stepping in the toes of the church and being intolerant of their beliefs?

This is a decision for individual churches. Some churches want to marry gays but the government in those states won't let them. Why do you support the government telling churches who they can and cannot marry? Doesn't sound like liberty. If a church doesn't want to marry gays they have that right. Right now they are telling churches the government will decide for them.

You don't have to get married in a church either. My sister just got married on the beach.

The church (which one exactly) doesn't really decide ****. Unless someone decides to get married in that church.

 

[fightbackhxc]

For example, if you were debating a Muslim on equal rights for women, and they kept quoting the Quran to you for proof that is was moral for women to be considered lower than men, you probably wouldn't take that as a very good explanation (I mean, maybe you would; I'm just making assumptions for the point I'm trying to make)...

Therefore, you could try and find common ground by taking the religious aspect out of it and speaking from a purely rational standpoint.

That's the same way an Atheist feels about a Christian arguing that something is right because it's part of their doctrine. What seems to be the easiest common ground to find is for both parties to think purely for themselves, not how a book tells them to think.

I am not perfect but in all things I want to consider Christ. How he would react, act, treat, love, talk, etc. Not doing so would simply not make me a follower of christ.

 

[Piston Honda]

You dont have a right to marriage.. The church has to agree to marry you. If they dont agree because they don't support homosexuality then wouldn't it be the gay couple stepping in the toes of the church and being intolerant of their beliefs?

Why are you in favor of supporting the church's discriminatory beliefs instead of urging them toward equality? Why not urge the church to let gays have the same privileges you enjoy? With less people than ever supporting / identifying with faith these days, I can see with what a tense hand the death-clutch of the faithful is holding onto the olden ways; resistant to progress.

 

[Piston Honda]

I am not perfect but in all things I want to consider Christ. How he would react, act, treat, love, talk, etc. Not doing so would simply not make me a follower of christ.

Christ hung around with 12 dudes and never married into his 30s...long hair...wore a robe all day...kind of gay...wait, WHAT???

 

[Zac Speed]

This is a decision for individual churches. Some churches want to marry gays but the government in those states won't let them. Why do you support the government telling churches who they can and cannot marry? Doesn't sound like liberty. If a church doesn't want to marry gays they have that right. Right now they are telling churches the government will decide for them.

I dont support anything the government does. But if you cant get married in your state ****ing move to another. People relocate for medical treatments and all other reasons. It doesn't mean they don't have equal rights. They use the same locker rooms, water fountains, bar stools...

 

[Geoforce]

Why are you in favor of supporting the church's discriminatory beliefs instead of urging them toward equality? Why not urge the church to let gays have the same privileges you enjoy? With less people than ever supporting / identifying with faith these days, I can see with what a tense hand the death-clutch of the faithful is holding onto the olden ways; resistant to progress.

Personally I do not care if some churches wish to discriminate. Enough churches won't that gays can easily get married in any state. As long as people quit saying let the government decide who can get married

 

[Zac Speed]

Why are you in favor of supporting the church's discriminatory beliefs instead of urging them toward equality? Why not urge the church to let gays have the same privileges you enjoy? With less people than ever supporting / identifying with faith these days, I can see with what a tense hand the death-clutch of the faithful is holding onto the olden ways; resistant to progress.

Why force your belief on someone else?

 

[Piston Honda]

Why not open your mind, or admit you're wrong?

 

[Geoforce]

I dont support anything the government does. But if you cant get married in your state ****ing move to another. People relocate for medical treatments and all other reasons. It doesn't mean they don't have equal rights. They use the same locker rooms, water fountains, bar stools...

Yet another logical fallacy. Don't like segregation? Move somewhere else? Don't like women not voting move somewhere else? Why don't the people who are against freedom and equal rights move to another country and I will be in America where all men are supposedly created equal? I mean we can do this for forever if you like but you have no logically strong position to argue from and so you are forced to argue from pure emotion.

If one had a strong rational position we would have seen it by this point.

Although again your arguments are almost word for word what people said against desegregation in the 60's. Which is fine if people want to be close minded but society again is moving forward without you. You don't have to like it but look at public opinion polls. You're in the minority and growing smaller with each passing year.

 

[Zac Speed]

Because I have respect. I'm no Christian but I wouldn't force them to accept me if I stood for something that was against their belief system.

 

[Piston Honda]

Because I have respect. I'm no Christian but I wouldn't force them to accept me if I stood for something that was against their belief system.

Religious beliefs go against human decency, tolerance, and equality. "Go to another state" = "go drink from another fountain."

 

[Geoforce]

Because I have respect. I'm no Christian but I wouldn't force them to accept me if I stood for something that was against their belief system.

They don't have to accept it. They just can't control others. Why is it ok for a faith to dominate public policy? It violates the Constitution.

 

[Zac Speed]

Religious beliefs go against human decency, tolerance, and equality. "Go to another state" = "go drink from another fountain."

So then why the **** would a gay couple give a **** about a religious ceremony like marriage?

 

[Zac Speed]

They don't have to accept it. They just can't control others. Why is it ok for a faith to dominate public policy? It violates the Constitution.

Because the government can't make a law forcing churches to accept it. They can only make it legal. In time it will come.. Just as the acceptance of Marijuana.

 

[Piston Honda]

So then why the **** would a gay couple give a **** about a religious ceremony like marriage?

Marriage is a social contract. It's not religious. I was married by a judge. No religion necessary.

 

[Geoforce]

Because I have respect. I'm no Christian but I wouldn't force them to accept me if I stood for something that was against their belief system.

How is my position in this thread disrespectful? I have never told someone they have to believe something or accept something. I have argued against the opinion that some people shouldn't have rights because it bothers some people. That's not how we make decisions and it is time for society to adapt once again.

It's also moot in the sense that the battle is over. It may be a while, but the writing is clearly on the wall. Equal rights is the majority position and vastly becoming something BOTH parties support.

 

[Piston Honda]

Nobody chiming in on my post pointing out how gay Jesus probably was? Hmm.

 

[Geoforce]

Because the government can't make a law forcing churches to accept it. They can only make it legal. In time it will come.. Just as the acceptance of Marijuana.

How are you not getting this? They wouldn't have to make a law forcing churches to accept it. Right now the law says churches that want to can't! Sounds like oppression.

 

[Zac Speed]

Nobody chiming in on my post pointing out how gay Jesus probably was? Hmm.

Karma is a bitch

 

[JudoJosh]

It would be awesome if people started sharing what they stand for rather than what they stand against.

On the original issue of A&E vs. Duck Dynasty dude. He was either a idiot for saying that in an interview or was intentionally trying to start a controversially. Either way the actions taken by A&E were did not violate any constitutional right and was within reason

Why would someone who is religious or someone who practices a religion ever take a secular view point? Very few if any of your comments in this thread have been helpful or loving.

They dont have to take a secular view or agree with it. The issue is human rights, not if you think homosexuality is wrong or not.

By the way tolerance does not mean supporting something fully.

Correct

Why would a religious individual ever take their faith out of their reasoning? Demanding someone do so is not being very tolerant is it? I just wish you came across in this thread in the same way you believe christains should treat homosexuals. But I am not seeing that. I know you are a cool guy but for some reason you seem burnt by religion. These conversations can be fun and exciting if respect is given on both sides.

They dont have to. The problem arises when the issue applies to the entire country and not just their specific religious group. When it effects society as a whole then personal opinions and religious philosophy has to be put aside and a conclusion must be reached using reason and logic. Christians can think homosexuals are heathens and will burn in hell all they want. You are free to think whatever you want. It only becomes a problem when your thoughts and opinions start effecting others. i.e. I can think women are inferior to men and should be obedient but if I smack my wife, my belief has effected others and whatever philosophy I hold becomes irrelevant and the situation must be examined using reason and logic.

Just because I can't physically prove something doesn't mean I can't use something I believe in to reason with. I personally use my beliefs to reason with many things in life. It's called individual philosophy. How someone's beliefs affect the way they think and act.

Nothing but love for ya piston.

Agreed

You dont have a right to marriage.. The church has to agree to marry you. If they dont agree because they don't support homosexuality then wouldn't it be the gay couple stepping in the toes of the church and being intolerant of their beliefs?

Not quite. There are currently churches who are willing to marry homosexuals but are forbidden to by the federal government. If anything it is the federal government stepping on the toes of the church

Why force your belief on someone else?

We aren't. It is the other way around. Christians are forcing their beliefs on society. We are simply rejecting their belief and stance on the issue. The force is coming from Christians in this issue. They are taking away rights from homosexuals, we are just trying to get them back.

 

[Geoforce]

So then why the **** would a gay couple give a **** about a religious ceremony like marriage?

Why would a black kid be mad they can't go to school with a white kid? We gave them a school!

1960's thinking up in here.

 

[Piston Honda]

Karma is a bitch

Karma implies revenge...for what? Pointing out that he was gay? And there we are for the idea that being gay merits punishment.

 

[Zac Speed]

How are you not getting this? They wouldn't have to make a law forcing churches to accept it. Right now the law says churches that want to can't! Sounds like oppression.

That is oppression.. Such an injustice.

The law says FEMA can suspend the constitution.. Are you not up in arms about that as well? Women can murder unborn children.. Legally paying someone to do it for them.
I mean if we are going to gave a debate about injustice in the government we might as well get all aspects. Fight for everyone's rights.

 

[Piston Honda]

That is oppression.. Such an injustice. The law says FEMA can suspend the constitution.. Are you not up in arms about that as well? Women can murder unborn children.. Legally paying someone to do it for them. I mean if we are going to gave a debate about injustice in the government we might as well get all aspects. Fight for everyone's rights.

How can you murder something that's not born?

Rest of your comment conflates the issue.

 

[Zac Speed]

How can you murder something that's not born?

Rest of your comment conflates the issue.

Wow....

 

[Geoforce]

That is oppression.. Such an injustice.

The law says FEMA can suspend the constitution.. Are you not up in arms about that as well? Women can murder unborn children.. Legally paying someone to do it for them.
I mean if we are going to gave a debate about injustice in the government we might as well get all aspects. Fight for everyone's rights.

We are talking about gay rights. Why do you keep trying so hard to come up with a reason for why people should not care? You haven't come up with anything that isn't easily shot down logically so now you dance around and say we have other issues so stop wanting gays to have rights!

If you can't come up with a strong logical argument then spare me because shooting down illogical arguments while extremely easy grows tiresome.

 

[Piston Honda]

I at least hope people learn how to logically debate and support their opinions after reading this thread.

 

[Touey]

How much more obtuse will this thread get these people "not Geo" seem to

have a single mindedness upon gays, the rights of gays, the promotion of gays,

the personal attacking anyone who may perchance disagree with their view on

gays. The unprotected child, God, those who love God, anything that in any

way may seem in their mind to conflict with gays be thrown to the wind

 

[Zac Speed]

We are talking about gay rights. Why do you keep trying so hard to come up with a reason for why people should not care? You haven't come up with anything that isn't easily shot down logically so now you dance around and say we have other issues so stop wanting gays to have rights!

If you can't come up with a strong logical argument then spare me because shooting down illogical arguments while extremely easy grows tiresome.

Because there are more important things happening in our nation than gay people not being able to get married in some states.

And you are wrong.. You think just because you say my opinion has no logic that makes you right. Who the **** made you god? gtfo

 

[Zac Speed]

I at least hope people learn how to logically debate and support their opinions after reading this thread.

Practice what you preach.

 

[Geoforce]

Because there are more important things happening in our nation than gay people not being able to get married in some states.

And you are wrong.. You think just because you say my opinion has no logic that makes you right. Who the **** made you god? gtfo

Your opinion HAS no logic therefore it is easily defeated by logical arguments. No one made me God, you're the one trying to play God. You're the one saying I get to deny people rights because of my opinion.

I don't think my opinion is better than yours. I KNOW it is logically much stronger than yours. That much is completely evident and you even admitted your opinion lacks logic. That is why it is so easily defeated. That is why people are changing their minds left and right.

As for more important things I think that is highly subjective. We could have argued their were more important things than blacks and women gaining the right to vote. Yet I'm not against that....are you? I think a population that doesn't have equal rights is quite important. So do many people in this country. That's what the MAJORITY of people in this country thinks.

So why are we letting the minority try and deny rights to people when that is what the population wants.

And like I said moot point. The issue isn't over, but it will be over in the next 15-25 years. The writing is completely on the wall and with each passing year the people FOR denying rights lose ground. This is why you even see Republicans starting to shift their position on this. They know it is a fight that will cost them politically if they continue to fight it.

 

[Piston Honda]

How much more obtuse will this thread get these people "not Geo" seem to have a single mindedness upon gays, the rights of gays, the promotion of gays, the personal attacking anyone whom may perchance disagree with they view on gays. The unprotected child, God, those who love God, anything that in any way may seem in their mind to conflict with gays be thrown to the wind

Name one personal attack. I attacked God and implied Jesus was gay, which isn't an attack. Neither God nor Jesus probably existed, so no harm making fun of something unreal.

 

[BoneDaddy]

Because there are more important things happening in our nation than gay people not being able to get married in some states.

And you are wrong.. You think just because you say my opinion has no logic that makes you right. Who the **** made you god? gtfo

What's more important than stamping out oppression and discrimination of a country's own people?

 

[Geoforce]

What's more important than stamping out oppression and discrimination of a country's own people?

And when does it become "ok" to fight for equal rights for people? Do we have to wait till we have no homeless people? Do we wait until poverty is eliminated? I would never argue the country doesn't have numerous issues, but it's not ok to work on one doesn't make ANY sense.

I don't sit around waiting and wishing things away. I act. It's very easy to talk about problems in society. Anyone can do that. That also doesn't fix anything. At some point people stood up and said we will not allow slavery. We will act. It's the same reason I volunteer with so many youth programs. Anyone can say our youth have issues. We need more people who want to do things about problems and not just acknowledge them.

 

[fightbackhxc]

Name one personal attack. I attacked God and implied Jesus was gay, which isn't an attack. Neither God nor Jesus probably existed, so no harm making fun of something unreal.

You can doubt the existence of a Creator but doubting the life of Jesus is just plain historically inaccurate.

 

[Young Gotti]

i want phil heath to win the olympia too....whats with all the fuss?

#didntread

 

[JudoJosh]

You can doubt the existence of a Creator but doubting the life of Jesus is just plain historically inaccurate.

Historical evidence supports that he was Galilean, was baptized by john the baptist, debated jewish authorities, was involved in a controversy at the temple and was crucified by pontius pilate. However, the tales told about him in the christian gospels (all the magic stories) and that he is the son of god are both unverified. The latter one is understandably unverifiable but the water to wine, healing, rising from the dead, etc are up for debate and most likely are myths/rumors that circulated instead of actual events.

Here is a pretty good book which takes away all the mythological stories and examines his life and the impact he had on the social/political time he lived in. Basically the author presents a balancing between the believed jesus of the gospels against historical sources.

NOTE: This is not an anti-jesus book by any means. It is an historical examination which paints the picture of jesus and the transformative impact he had.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[AE14]

Historical evidence supports that he was Galilean, was baptized by john the baptist, debated jewish authorities, was involved in a controversy at the temple and was crucified by pontius pilate. However, the tales told about him in the christian gospels (all the magic stories) and that he is the son of god are both unverified. The latter one is understandably unverifiable but the water to wine, healing, rising from the dead, etc are up for debate and most likely are myths/rumors that circulated instead of actual events. Here is a pretty good book which takes away all the mythological stories and examines his life and the impact he had on the social/political time he lived in. Basically the author presents a balancing between the believed jesus of the gospels against historical sources. NOTE: This is not an anti-jesus book by any means. It is an historical examination which paints the picture of jesus and the transformative impact he had. Invalid Link Removed <img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=95946"/>

Interestingly, there were many contemporaries of the Nazarene that also had followers that made the claim of being god, godlike,etc... It is just that overtime, Rome needed something to unify it and Constantine chose the "sun" (not son). Furthermore, many of the traditions of Christianity are all melded together from a variety of sources, but Sol Invictus is a major one.

 

[JudoJosh]

Interestingly, there were many contemporaries of the Nazarene that also had followers that made the claim of being god, godlike,etc... It is just that overtime, Rome needed something to unify it and Constantine chose the "sun" (not son). Furthermore, many of the traditions of Christianity are all melded together from a variety of sources, but Sol Invictus is a major one.

I meant to tag you in my post, glad you found it though.

Have you read or are familiar with the above book that I linked?

 

[fightbackhxc]

Historical evidence supports that he was Galilean, was baptized by john the baptist, debated jewish authorities, was involved in a controversy at the temple and was crucified by pontius pilate. However, the tales told about him in the christian gospels (all the magic stories) and that he is the son of god are both unverified. The latter one is understandably unverifiable but the water to wine, healing, rising from the dead, etc are up for debate and most likely are myths/rumors that circulated instead of actual events.

Here is a pretty good book which takes away all the mythological stories and examines his life and the impact he had on the social/political time he lived in. Basically the author presents a balancing between the believed jesus of the gospels against historical sources.

NOTE: This is not an anti-jesus book by any means. It is an historical examination which paints the picture of jesus and the transformative impact he had.

Invalid Link Removed

<img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=95946"/>

That book was written by a Muslim.....

 

[AE14]

I meant to tag you in my post, glad you found it though. Have you read or are familiar with the above book that I linked?

I have heard good things. Have yet to read it myself.

 

[AE14]

That book was written by a Muslim.....

And?????

 

[fightbackhxc]

And?????

Don't you think is view point is bias? I mean God's own chosen people ... the Jews... even deny Jesus as God. We didn't need someone from the faith of Islam to author a book claiming Jesus was a fake...

 

[AE14]

Don't you think is view point is bias? I mean God's own chosen people ... the Jews... even deny Jesus as God. We didn't need someone from the faith of Islam to author a book claiming Jesus was a fake...

You do realize that according to the OT Jesus does not complete the messianic prophecies right?

 

[JudoJosh]

That book was written by a Muslim.....

And also has his doctorate in the sociology of religion whole also having a quite extensive academic background in the history of religion.

But his personal faith totally discredits his work right? I suppose a random pastor would be able to understand the historical context jesues would have existed in better than an academically trained expert in the field right? :eyeroll:

(Ad hominem? Really? I cant believd you went Bill O'Riley on me there. Im surprised, I didnt expect you to be a fanatic)

 

[BoneDaddy]

Don't you think is view point is bias? I mean God's own chosen people ... the Jews... even deny Jesus as God. We didn't need someone from the faith of Islam to author a book claiming Jesus was a fake...

By that logic, it could be argued that anyone who wrote that book would have a biased view. Doesn't make it so though.

 

[fightbackhxc]

You do realize that according to the OT Jesus does not complete the messianic prophecies right?

Which prophesies might you be referring to?

 

[Piston Honda]

That book was written by a Muslim.....

He addressed that same ad hominem attack on a Fox News program, where he pointed out his credentials as a scholar of religion.

What an unbelievably shortsighted comment. If you took some time to think before you posted, I'm sure you wouldn't have written that.

 

[Piston Honda]

Invalid Link Removed

There it is