How To Get To Heaven When You Die

DID YOU PRAY THAT PRAYER AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS FIRST POST TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART?

  • YES

    Votes: 3 7.0%
  • NO

    Votes: 18 41.9%
  • I ALREADY PRAYED/ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST INTO MY HEART BEFORE

    Votes: 19 44.2%
  • OTHER

    Votes: 3 7.0%

  • Total voters
    43
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."
 
But it does say dadof that He was the word in the flesh. and the entier old testament was about the promise of the messiah that just happend to be jesus.


What you said is true, but it still doesn't make Jesus "the Word of God' the same as the Bible is"the word of God".

Jesus being the Word of God is a characteristic of Him, much like calling Him the Son of God, or the Lamb of God.


The Bible is called the word of God because we, Christians, believe that God inspired its writing by means of the Holy Spirit. This same Holy Spirit that resides within us is what allows us to discern the spiritual truths held within the Bible.
 
Bucknuts I have done a small amount of research as well on the gap and what I came up with is this. In Genesis 1:2 The two words WITHOUT FORM and VOID exspress one concept (CHAOS). The earth had been reduced to this state, it was not the way God had first created it. The word Darkness in the Bible is a potent Word for evil and wrong. The word DEEP is a term for the secret places of the waters. All these things in Gen 1:2 potray chaos, disaster and devestation. Then from ruin God brings forth an orderly creation.

Now from what I have heard the battle between Lucifer and God took place befor the Earth in its form now took place. I have read that there was a race of people befor and the angels were in contact with these people or beings. Lucifer being a special angel was to teach the beings about God and the Heavens, the people would worsjip God and lucifer became Jealous and wated the worship for him self. Lucifer was created to magnify God because of the way god made him. Lucifer then decides to try and take the throne of god with the help of the rest of the angels that were on the earth, instead of continuing to teach the people to do right they became evil and wicked and then the battle began. Then we know the rest of the story, lucifer was cast out of heave and down to the earth.

In the gospel Jesus describes the battle when he states that (Luke 10:18) I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. The source that I got this info from belives that this created the distruction of the earth. He also states that the Earth has been created many times.

After the Creation of Adam and Eve God instructs them to subdue the Earth and to have dominion over it. Of course To subdue is to bring into bondage, so there was someone or somthing that Adam and Eve were to conquor. We already know that satan was present on the earth because he was present in the Garden. Perhaps satan may have had a race of people that were already here as well, there were many people that God instructed his chosen people to not mate and cohabitate with. By God telling Adam and Eve To multiply and fill the Earth and then Subdue it makes you wonder. Obveously the angels could mate with humans because Genesis speaks about it later on. These things could have been going on befor Genesis 1:1. You then began to bring Fallen Angels and Demons into the Picture. They say this is where you get a lot of greek stories from that talk about the demigods and diffrent creatures they used to write stories about. This may even explain aliens and diffrent things that go on untill this day.

I first heard of the gap theory when a co-worker gave me a Scofield study Bible, Dr Scofield was a proponent of the theory and that was the very first time I had heard of a "pre-Adamite" races of people etc. Like I said in my previous post I do think the theory is interesting but it has to line up with the rest of scripture. If this theory is true how do we reconcile it to the scriptures that clearly teach that death is the result of Adam's first sin, and not something that God created during the time period that gap theorists believe exists between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Think about it, if the gap theory is true then entire civilizations would have lived and died prior to Adam's sin. So death would have been happening for billions of years prior to Adam's sin would it not? I believe the the gap theory was created to provide for the lengthy time periods required by naturalistic concepts and is an attempt to harmonize these concepts with the Biblical record of creation. In other words it's a concession to the worldly belief systems by people who do not have the conviction that the Bible is inerrent, that's my opinion anyways. By the way this theory would be completely and totally rejected by the people it is meant to appease. I don't believe this is a salvation issue, I don't think anyone who supports this theory is lost by any means but it is wildly speculative and not supported by the whole of scripture in my opinion. We could talk about this topic all day it's fascinating stuff, but I believe that the scriptures are the inherent and inspired word of God and I would need someone to show me in the scripture where they see the gap theory proof.
 
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What you said is true, but it still doesn't make Jesus "the Word of God' the same as the Bible is"the word of God".

Jesus being the Word of God is a characteristic of Him, much like calling Him the Son of God, or the Lamb of God.


The Bible is called the word of God because we, Christians, believe that God inspired its writing by means of the Holy Spirit. This same Holy Spirit that resides within us is what allows us to discern the spiritual truths held within the Bible.

This post is brilliant in that you clearly have strong faith but also a strong heart and mind to discern the real truths in life. I also think NOTHING is immune to corruption, conflicts on interest and "satan" if you will.

If your looking for the truth look into a mirror.
 
I am going to edit this post so that you can see the irony.


Also i think it is close minded of people to not take into consideration personal experience and instead feel that THEY are the "enlightened ones" and that everyone else is to an extent ignorant because they don't subscribe to the theories of String, Darwinism, Big Bang, etc.... because that is exactly what it is, nothing more, and i find the manner with which most atheist approach people who do not think like them offensive, especially for me when in most cases i'm MUCH more intelligent than they will ever dream to be. IMO the need to feel superior to people who do not think like I do is a necessary thing for some people to give their life meaning... but when it starts getting pushed on me then the **** has gone too far... Im done ranting now though lol sorry if i have offended anyone


Close mindedness is a problem for people of all belief systems and faiths.[/QUOTE]

:clap2:
 
accusations of close mindedness against people of faith is a typical response from those who don't want to know that truth could be narrow. After all, When Jesus said that He was the Way, The Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Him. And that there were no other Gods before Him and there will be no other Gods after him narrows this down considerably.

The argument comes as a result of truth being narrow vs the world wanting everything to have truth in it and live happily ever after.

Those believers in Jesus can come across as arrogant many times. Hypocrites many times. Ridiculous manerisms many times. Yet, we gotta look past this trash and see what Jesus said about truth and the way to eternal life.

I have struggled in my own life with the church myself. I looked at the church too much and took my heart of God and I died in my spirit as a result. I struggle with my own self and sins. Part of me wants to stay in them and part wants to be free.

We can argue science all we want to and never come to an agreement on much or make up to stuff as well. Yet, when it comes to God, all religions cannot lead to God because God is not the author of confusion but He is One of love and of judgement thus giving the narrow road to salvation through Jesus Christ. We are left with what are we going to do with Him?
 
accusations of close mindedness against people of faith is a typical response from those who don't want to know that truth could be narrow. After all, When Jesus said that He was the Way, The Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Him. And that there were no other Gods before Him and there will be no other Gods after him narrows this down considerably.

The argument comes as a result of truth being narrow vs the world wanting everything to have truth in it and live happily ever after.

Those believers in Jesus can come across as arrogant many times. Hypocrites many times. Ridiculous manerisms many times. Yet, we gotta look past this trash and see what Jesus said about truth and the way to eternal life.

I have struggled in my own life with the church myself. I looked at the church too much and took my heart of God and I died in my spirit as a result. I struggle with my own self and sins. Part of me wants to stay in them and part wants to be free.

We can argue science all we want to and never come to an agreement on much or make up to stuff as well. Yet, when it comes to God, all religions cannot lead to God because God is not the author of confusion but He is One of love and of judgement thus giving the narrow road to salvation through Jesus Christ. We are left with what are we going to do with Him?


Romans 3:


22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


Then to Romans 7:

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!


Sounds like you and Paul have something in common :)


No church or no pastor can do anything for you, and many have spiritually abused plenty of people (this gets back to Earthly things being prone to corruption). I too spent many years outside of the church.


All that said Jesus didn't die for you on the condition that you act and live perfectly. Nor did Jesus omit any of your sins when He atoned for them.

Let me ask you a question: Have you been physically redeemed like Jesus? No? Well then I have news for you. You will struggle with sin. Jesus gave us His Life, but this Life resides in a corrupt body (this is why the resurrection is such a big deal). You will never be sinless no matter how hard you or anyone else tries to make you sinless. If you could be sinless then Jesus did not have to die!


Grace my friend, we are thankfully saved by Grace not by merit or worthiness.


I am going to include a link in this post:

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Pastor Frank Friedmann is the pastor of my church family. The footage is actually from our church services. If your idea of church is going to hear about how much money the church needs, guilting you into filling up collection plates, and being told how terrible a sinner you are, then do yourself a favor and go see the message that is so needed and so rarely taught. Grace.


Obviously I am here if you ever need to talk with someone.
 
accusations of close mindedness against people of faith is a typical response from those who don't want to know that truth could be narrow. After all, When Jesus said that He was the Way, The Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Him. And that there were no other Gods before Him and there will be no other Gods after him narrows this down considerably.

See, the thing is other than your own faith and believe, you have zero evidence it was ever said. Zero! And I think this is where accusation of closed mindedness about Christians comes.
People sound closed minded because they can't understand it's their own believe or "truth". Yet they try so damn hard to make everyone accept their truth. It never worked and never will. The harder you push the more resistance you'll get.
 
I am assuming you meant you believe in a God not the christian God? Otherwise you cant believe in God and not believe in the bible.

Why not?
God is just a word, what that word mean to you and me is another question. Sure I can say "Higher Intelligent Power" or I can just say "God". I don't hang up on the details.
On the side note, I have yet to find any evidence that Bible was written by God, so all the info in it about God might be just a fairy tail, everyone decides for himself. So, again, why can't I believe in God but not in the Bible?
 
Why not?
God is just a word, what that word mean to you and me is another question. Sure I can say "Higher Intelligent Power" or I can just say "God". I don't hang up on the details.
On the side note, I have yet to find any evidence that Bible was written by God, so all the info in it about God might be just a fairy tail, everyone decides for himself. So, again, why can't I believe in God but not in the Bible?

THe point dmitry is that some people cannot grasp the IDEAS behind faith and spirituality they can only read the BOOKS and argue the details therein.

By nature one who questions, and censors religions and books is probably going to actually understands the MESSAGE of the teachings. It is a whole new level of spiritual IQ to form your own version of a teaching that speaks to you.. as opposed to being another student who is still trying to remeber all the jargon.
 
I first heard of the gap theory when a co-worker gave me a Scofield study Bible, Dr Scofield was a proponent of the theory and that was the very first time I had heard of a "pre-Adamite" races of people etc. Like I said in my previous post I do think the theory is interesting but it has to line up with the rest of scripture. If this theory is true how do we reconcile it to the scriptures that clearly teach that death is the result of Adam's first sin, and not something that God created during the time period that gap theorists believe exists between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Think about it, if the gap theory is true then entire civilizations would have lived and died prior to Adam's sin. So death would have been happening for billions of years prior to Adam's sin would it not? I believe the the gap theory was created to provide for the lengthy time periods required by naturalistic concepts and is an attempt to harmonize these concepts with the Biblical record of creation. In other words it's a concession to the worldly belief systems by people who do not have the conviction that the Bible is inherent, that's my opinion anyways. By the way this theory would be completely and totally rejected by the people it is meant to appease. I don't believe this is a salvation issue, I don't think anyone who supports this theory is lost by any means but it is wildly speculative and not supported by the whole of scripture in my opinion. We could talk about this topic all day it's fascinating stuff, but I believe that the scriptures are the inherent and inspired word of God and I would need someone to show me in the scripture where they see the gap theory proof.

Yes I agree as well, I would need more info to take this a little farther, I do on the other hand belive that there are so many things that we dont know, mainly because are minds cant conceive them. I remember Jesus telling the desciples that they could not understand the parabols so if he would tell them heavenly things they would be even more confused. The pre Adam thing is realy interresting though, ive also heard of another spouse that existed befor Eve but thats another story and like you say we have to stick to scripture, its very easy to get intangled in these things. I belive all things will be revealed in the end. Its an infinite universe out there, I hope we get are own individual galaxy, that would be nuts.
 
THe point dmitry is that some people cannot grasp the IDEAS behind faith and spirituality they can only read the BOOKS and argue the details therein.

By nature one who questions, and censors religions and books is probably going to actually understands the MESSAGE of the teachings. It is a whole new level of spiritual IQ to form your own version of a teaching that speaks to you.. as opposed to being another student who is still trying to remeber all the jargon.

ouch
 
Im sorry bro i did not mean to be rude. If you believe something deep down in your heart stick with it. I am trying to understand somethings the best way for me.

Its all good, I guess sometimes people get that way when they assume they know someone and they don't. But I will continue to except the bible as true and to live by the greatest command Jesus gave, Love the lord your god with all your heart and love others.
 
the guy has done 1 post... what a quack

as if im reading all 6 pages of replies on here

wtf

I'll sum it up for you. Some people believe a senior citizen built a boat that held 2 of every animal, 7 of some. He sailed to every continent on Earth and collected them while it was flooding for a 40 day period, and some don't.
 
I'll sum it up for you. Some people believe a senior citizen built a boat that held 2 of every animal, 7 of some. He sailed to every continent on Earth and collected them while it was flooding for a 40 day period, and some don't.

lolol yeah i know

ive been an atheist for a while.. its the only thing that makes sense

Here's a question for all you religious guys... humans as we know them... have been scientifically proved to descend from apes for something like the last 2 million years throug evolution... humans as we know ourselves now... have been around for 50,000 years... so... christianity.... 2000 years old... what about not only every one else out there who isnt chrisitan (even thru no fault of their own) but people 2000 years ago way through to 48,000 years ago and beyond as even then we had conscious'...were they doomed to burn in hell as they didnt welcome jesus into their heart?

or is all this science crap a bunch of hokey pokey made by some evil jews in a laboratory... "dinosaur bones...no.. god put them there to test us" type crap?


something difinitively proven through MODERN day science/intelligence/logic/study.... or something written up thousands of years ago through what today would be classified as simpletons in an era where david copperfield would have been bigger than jesus... stories passed down from generation to generation (played chinese whispers before?)... and surely taken out of context by fundamentalist idiots...

hmm tough decision for me
 
or something written up thousands of years ago through what today would be classified as simpletons in an era where david copperfield would have been bigger than jesus...

LMMFAO!!!!!!!!! If he would of been around then people would say David F'ing Copperfield when they got mad instead of what they say now. I won't say it because God forbid you don't think like some people around here. It is a rule violation.
 
lolol yeah i know

ive been an atheist for a while.. its the only thing that makes sense

Here's a question for all you religious guys... humans as we know them... have been scientifically proved to descend from apes for something like the last 2 million years throug evolution... humans as we know ourselves now... have been around for 50,000 years... so... christianity.... 2000 years old... what about not only every one else out there who isnt chrisitan (even thru no fault of their own) but people 2000 years ago way through to 48,000 years ago and beyond as even then we had conscious'...were they doomed to burn in hell as they didnt welcome jesus into their heart?

or is all this science crap a bunch of hokey pokey made by some evil jews in a laboratory... "dinosaur bones...no.. god put them there to test us" type crap?


something difinitively proven through MODERN day science/intelligence/logic/study.... or something written up thousands of years ago through what today would be classified as simpletons in an era where david copperfield would have been bigger than jesus... stories passed down from generation to generation (played chinese whispers before?)... and surely taken out of context by fundamentalist idiots...

hmm tough decision for me

It seems as if tho you have already answered your question.....
 
lolol yeah i know

ive been an atheist for a while.. its the only thing that makes sense

Here's a question for all you religious guys... humans as we know them... have been scientifically proved to descend from apes for something like the last 2 million years throug evolution... humans as we know ourselves now... have been around for 50,000 years... so... christianity.... 2000 years old... what about not only every one else out there who isnt chrisitan (even thru no fault of their own) but people 2000 years ago way through to 48,000 years ago and beyond as even then we had conscious'...were they doomed to burn in hell as they didnt welcome jesus into their heart?

or is all this science crap a bunch of hokey pokey made by some evil jews in a laboratory... "dinosaur bones...no.. god put them there to test us" type crap?


something difinitively proven through MODERN day science/intelligence/logic/study.... or something written up thousands of years ago through what today would be classified as simpletons in an era where david copperfield would have been bigger than jesus... stories passed down from generation to generation (played chinese whispers before?)... and surely taken out of context by fundamentalist idiots...

hmm tough decision for me


People who lived a few thousand years ago were simpletons? Are you serious? Apparantly you know about as much about Christian theology as you do about evolution.

And you worry about other people believing stupid things. :tool:


Oh, and by the way. The answer to your question, the one about people who existed before Christ, its in the Bible. You know, the book that I am sure that you have read from cover to cover 40 times in your earnest search for truth.
 
:D
This made me laugh.
People who lived a few thousand years ago were simpletons? Are you serious? Apparantly you know about as much about Christian theology as you do about evolution.

And you worry about other people believing stupid things. :tool:


Oh, and by the way. The answer to your question, the one about people who existed before Christ, its in the Bible. You know, the book that I am sure that you have read from cover to cover 40 times in your earnest search for truth.
 
Agreed. Some make me laugh by saying things that are so out-of-left-field, and to top it off, they actually think it is fact. Wow!

All I can say is: "Trust your dying heart, for it will lead you to the truth." - Unknown Soldier
Arguing religion and politics on the internet... well hey whatever floats your boat.
 
Arguing religion and politics on the internet... well hey whatever floats your boat.

Usually when in conversation politics and religion are always refered to as arguing and not discussion.

I think it is the far fringe on both sides that would take these subjects to arguing because they have walls up and refuse to see the other side.

I prefer to discuss things and if I find myself going past a discussion phase into an argument phase I then with draw myself from it and center myself, so to speak. More good comes out a discussion then an argument.

Than can be hard on politics and religion but it can be done.
 
Usually when in conversation politics and religion are always refered to as arguing and not discussion.

I think it is the far fringe on both sides that would take these subjects to arguing because they have walls up and refuse to see the other side.

I prefer to discuss things and if I find myself going past a discussion phase into an argument phase I then with draw myself from it and center myself, so to speak. More good comes out a discussion then an argument.

Than can be hard on politics and religion but it can be done.

Agreed though it is very difficult to have a reasonable discussion when people make posts like the one I'm about to respond to that are so blatantly erroneous and meant to do nothing but insult and incite people:

Originally Posted by soseg
lolol yeah i know

ive been an atheist for a while.. its the only thing that makes sense

Makes sense to whom?

Here's a question for all you religious guys... humans as we know them... have been scientifically proved to descend from apes for something like the last 2 million years throug evolution... humans as we know ourselves now... have been around for 50,000 years... so... christianity.... 2000 years old... what about not only every one else out there who isnt chrisitan (even thru no fault of their own) but people 2000 years ago way through to 48,000 years ago and beyond as even then we had conscious'...were they doomed to burn in hell as they didnt welcome jesus into their heart?

Human evolution is scientifically proven? humans have existed for 50,000 years? I would love to see the proof for this, proof not theory or in the case of evolution as my dad used to say "WAG" = wild ass guess

or is all this science crap a bunch of hokey pokey made by some evil jews in a laboratory... "dinosaur bones...no.. god put them there to test us" type crap?

What have the Jews to do with anything discussed here? IMO Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. I have proper respect for Jews, my Lord and Savior was a Jew.
Romans 3:1&2
What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
Romans 15:8
For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs.


something difinitively proven through MODERN day science/intelligence/logic/study.... or something written up thousands of years ago through what today would be classified as simpletons in an era where david copperfield would have been bigger than jesus... stories passed down from generation to generation (played chinese whispers before?)... and surely taken out of context by fundamentalist idiots...

I would love to see David Copperfield revive the dead, give sight to the blind, make the lame walk. Copperfield would look rather foolish in Jesus' light.
While first century Christians did rely on oral tradition the chinese whispers analogy is not applicable. First century rabbi were known to memorize the entire Torah and were absolutely accountable. Anyways all the books of the New testament were written very early, Paul's letters were written first - 1 Thessalonians A.D. 49-51, Galatians A.D. 49-54, 2 Thessalonians A.D. 52-54,1 Corinthians A.D. 52-54, Romans A.D. 54-55, 2 Corinthians A.D. 55, Philippians A.D. 58-60, Colossians A.D. 58-60, Philemon A.D. 58-60, Ephesians A.D. 58-60, 1 Timothy A.D.61- 62, Titus A.D. 62, 2 Timothy A.D. 62.followed by Mark, Luke Acts & in the 60s-70s A.D., Matthew in the 80s A.D. and John and Revelations in the 90s A.D.
When you consider that Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection take place in 30-33A.D. the books of the New Testament were written extremely early especially by first century standards, way to early for error and legend to creep in as many who were witnesses to the events were still alive when these books were written and circulating.


hmm tough decision for me

Tougher than you know.
 
walking on water... bringing back the dead? LOL... if you want to believe it... is there any proof to it other than the bible? no.

you know... if you picked up OTHER historical books other than the new and old testament you would find history and science tends to very quickly disagree with the outlandish stories written in those books.

Noah's arc... well... you'd be a moron to believe it... yes science has disproven it along with other historical books found and written by people living in those regions back then... so i wont explain it

but theres other stories in the bible like "fire coming down from the sky" in certain locations... keeping this short n simple... historians, bible scholars etc know roughly which region this story occured in... and geologists have proven recently that about 2-3000 years ago there was volcanic activity in the area... yea im not surprised people took it as gods wrath throwing fire balls at them destroying their little towns (cant remember off the top of my head exactly which story it was but you get the point)

i spent 13 years being brought up in a catholic school and around christians and after looking at other sides of the story such as science and logic it pretty quickly disproves it all. tho i know you wont have any of it as the whole jesus thing is firmly set in stone in the back of your head and you're probably too scared to question it

"First century rabbi were known to memorize the entire Torah and were absolutely accountable." ...memorise... my point proven.
I wasnt literally meaning that the books of the testaments were passed down by word of mouth. But a lot of things do get changed and edited over years even through text and translations. A lot of other books written back then were also deliberately left out of the new testament for various reasons.

I'm not taking this discussion any further. Personally I'll admit I think you guys are a little on the weird side, so what. I know you guys are thinking the same about me. Thats life.

Put it this way. You cant prove to me God exists or that Jesus existed. I cant prove to you that God or Jesus dont exist. However, IF you REALLY want a discussion... theism versus atheism... then the atheists I'll bet... will to a greater certainty prove their points over yours.
 
walking on water... bringing back the dead? LOL... if you want to believe it... is there any proof to it other than the bible? no.

you know... if you picked up OTHER historical books other than the new and old testament you would find history and science tends to very quickly disagree with the outlandish stories written in those books.

Noah's arc... well... you'd be a moron to believe it... yes science has disproven it along with other historical books found and written by people living in those regions back then... so i wont explain it

but theres other stories in the bible like "fire coming down from the sky" in certain locations... keeping this short n simple... historians, bible scholars etc know roughly which region this story occured in... and geologists have proven recently that about 2-3000 years ago there was volcanic activity in the area... yea im not surprised people took it as gods wrath throwing fire balls at them destroying their little towns (cant remember off the top of my head exactly which story it was but you get the point)

i spent 13 years being brought up in a catholic school and around christians and after looking at other sides of the story such as science and logic it pretty quickly disproves it all. tho i know you wont have any of it as the whole jesus thing is firmly set in stone in the back of your head and you're probably too scared to question it

"First century rabbi were known to memorize the entire Torah and were absolutely accountable." ...memorise... my point proven.
I wasnt literally meaning that the books of the testaments were passed down by word of mouth. But a lot of things do get changed and edited over years even through text and translations. A lot of other books written back then were also deliberately left out of the new testament for various reasons.

I'm not taking this discussion any further. Personally I'll admit I think you guys are a little on the weird side, so what. I know you guys are thinking the same about me. Thats life.

Put it this way. You cant prove to me God exists or that Jesus existed. I cant prove to you that God or Jesus dont exist. However, IF you REALLY want a discussion... theism versus atheism... then the atheists I'll bet... will to a greater certainty prove their points over yours.

Atheists and secular philosophers have stopped debating Christian philosophers as they got tired of having there philosophical butts handed to them.
I feel you on the Catholic schools I spent 18 years there myself, I'm a Christian in spite of not because of it.
The manuscript evidence for the New Testament is without parallel in terms of ancient documents there are thousands of preserved copies and they have been carefully and reverentially handed down to us today in amazingly accurate fashion. Have there been copiest errors? yes, but no major doctrine has ever been in jeopardy because of one. I read somewhere that of the ancient copies of the books of the New Testament that we have( again 1000s) they are 99% in agreement with one another. That's pretty remarkable no? I would say miraculous.
The Bible is not a science book and cannot be disproved based on it's scientific information. If you will not allow for the miraculous power of God then of course you will come to the conclusion that most of the info in the Bible is made up, naturalism does not allow for the supernatural after all.
As to the miracles of Jesus there were eyewitnesses to them and they wrote them down(Matthew and John). The Jews themselves in there writings confirm that Jesus did miraculous things, granted they say it was satanic power that allowed him to do it but it is affirmation from a hostile source that he did do miraculous things. Jesus' physical existence is simply not challenged any more, whether He is who we Christians say He is that's obviously still very much in debate.
I love how evolutionists always want to point to the Ark as proof of how all Christians are nothing more than toothless rubes who's mother and father are also brother and sister. BUCKNUTS how can you believe that all lifeforms on this planet are descendant from the animals that were on that ark, when we know for a "scientific fact" that all of the diversity of life evolved from something that crawled out of a puddle of biological goo on the primitive earth". Who is it that believes in fairy tales my friend?
OK I'm done now as well. Goodnight.
 
I would rather believe someone created the earth then science saying it created itself out of nothing..... :dunno:
 
Atheists and secular philosophers have stopped debating Christian philosophers as they got tired of having there philosophical butts handed to them.
Er... no clue where you got that from... as far as I've seen its been the other way around.

The Bible is not a science book and cannot be disproved based on it's scientific information.
No its not. But that doesnt mean science cannot disprove things that happened in it, and that other historical books from other groups of people living in that time tend to contradict or explain in more detail how certain things occured...

I love how evolutionists always want to point to the Ark as proof of how all Christians are nothing more than toothless rubes who's mother and father are also brother and sister.
I actually dont know of any christians who believe noah put every animal on a big boat... except maybe one or two fanatical weirdos... however geologists and non theological historians have proven that during the time of the noah story, there was a massive flood, and explained how it happened. geological evidence today proves there was flooding in those regions during that time, along with historical books from other civilisations which i believe is today modern Iraq... with other stories (outside of the bible) telling of a guy who did build a boat... however not for that purpose, or not on that scale. the whole noah story in the bible is just stretched out and with stuff added to it for the purpose of a story with a moral to it

BUCKNUTS how can you believe that all lifeforms on this planet are descendant from the animals that were on that ark, when we know for a "scientific fact" that all of the diversity of life evolved from something that crawled out of a puddle of biological goo on the primitive earth". Who is it that believes in fairy tales my friend?
OK I'm done now as well. Goodnight.

Natural evolution... Darwin theory etc... versus... adam and eve (which im sure you dont believe in? ALL modern christians and teachers ive met even openly admit its just a story to teach a point, a simplistic view of how the world was created)... but what makes more sense to you? well that depends what you want to believe, what your too afraid to question and discredit, and how much thought you have placed into both schools of religion and science. me personally... the thought of a guy in the clouds controlling everything... is more far fetched than the big bang theory. and if big bang theory makes no sense to you... then I ask... where did your god come from? something just as obsurd would have had to have created him?

for me... having something that can be openly proven to a very credible point versus stories no matter how accurately written and handed down in history of guys walking on water, bringing back the dead etc... well, the science wins. Jesus and the like occured 2,000 years ago... I dont doubt Jesus didnt exist as other writings outside of the bible confirm he did, however I doubt the credibility of the god like powers he possessed. There has been tonnes of people throughout history who claim they were prophets from god (all of which usually today get turned down as psychotic), tonnes of people who claim they see god, or have seen the gates and white lights when they had a near death experience (which btw has logical medical explanations to it)... so whatever floats your boat. I like to live in the contemporary world.

I still find it weird why god decided to send Jesus out 2,000 years ago considering we have been on this world a lot longer.. why that point in time... and what about those jews, non believers and other religious believers before him that believed in other things? You can have this same argument with someone else who believes in a religion that does not stem for the big 3... you'll end up on square on again. You will be certain you believe in the right god... they are certain they believe in the right god... so who is right?

Religion - the biggest cause of war, fear and persecution in our history. - Fact. Don't try to argue that one.
 
I would rather believe someone created the earth then science saying it created itself out of nothing..... :dunno:
Actually the scientific explanation could lead to a conclusion that there was a creator. I believe in God but the talking burning bushes, Noahs Arc, the guys surviving 3 days in the digestive tract of a whale, etc, etc are just common sense that they are impossible and I am not going to buy it solely because the bible says so. To each their own. It's fun to argue sometimes but the bottom line is everyone is entitled to believe what they choose.

NOW HOW DO I UNSUBSCRIBE TO THIS THREAD! I HATE ARGUING RELIGION AND THIS THREAD CALLS ME!!!!!!!!!!


In the words of Ali G - "So isn't God just an overhyped David Blane?"
 
Religion - the biggest cause of war, fear and persecution in our history. - Fact. Don't try to argue that one.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ What are you trying to prove with that statement? The only thing I see that it proves is that people stood for what they believe in.

Did you know that Peter, was crucified upside down on a cross because he did not feel he was good enough to die the same way as Christ? People died cruel torturous deaths for this man. I guess they did it for no reason....?
 
Actually the scientific explanation could lead to a conclusion that there was a creator. I believe in God but the talking burning bushes, Noahs Arc, the guys surviving 3 days in the digestive tract of a whale, etc, etc are just common sense that they are impossible and I am not going to buy it solely because the bible says so. To each their own. It's fun to argue sometimes but the bottom line is everyone is entitled to believe what they choose.

NOW HOW DO I UNSUBSCRIBE TO THIS THREAD! I HATE ARGUING RELIGION AND THIS THREAD CALLS ME!!!!!!!!!!


In the words of Ali G - "So isn't God just an overhyped David Blane?"

You go to thread tools up at the top and then hit unsub. So let me get this straight You believe someone or something created this World. Lets say for an instance you believed it was the christian god, you were just struggling with some of they points made in the bible. If a God mighty enough to make an entire universe can do that, why could he not make a bush burn and talk? or save the world from a flood by an old man and two of every creature? Seems to me there is a contradiction of power there.
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^ What are you trying to prove with that statement? The only thing I see that it proves is that people stood for what they believe in.

Did you know that Peter, was crucified upside down on a cross because he did not feel he was good enough to die the same way as Christ? People died cruel torturous deaths for this man. I guess they did it for no reason....?

His statement was false anyways fightback. Everyone knows there have been religious wars, but most people are also aware that money and power are the reason for the majority of war both in the ancient world and today.
 
Ah yes the "gap theory" or Ruin-Reconstruction interpretation as it is called which theorizes a huge "gap" of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. The theory itself is quite old, older than Darwinian evolutionary thought. I have vacillated on this so many times personally. I have read some convincing articles that postulate that the last ice age corresponds exactly to the biblical time frame of Genesis chapter 1. However if this theory is true how do we reconcile it to the rest of scripture which clearly teaches that death is the result of the rebellion of Satan and Adam's first sin, and not something that God created during the time period that gap theorists believe exists between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. It is interesting but I'm not so sure it can be supported biblically. As to decay chains of radionuclides, how can we be sure that the decay has been constant for the alleged billions of years? How many billions is up to now? I can't keep track it changes so often. Even in the laboratory, beta decay rates have been sped up by many orders of magnitude when atoms are stripped of electrons. Also methodological naturalism assumes that processes God used to create the world are the same processes he uses to sustain it and we can't know that. These are fascinating subjects and I believe all Christians should study them and as scripture says 1 Peter 3:15 Always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you for a reason regarding the hope that is in you, yet answer with gentleness and reverence. May God bless you all.

There was a gap, bro. The length of which is not clear, neither is it stated as to the events in between G1:1 and G1:2. What in scripture precludes preexisting civilizations or covenants, and why would God command us to repopulate the planet if it had not been previously populated? It's only a theory I admit, but it seems likely IMHO.

Genesis 1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

[a] also can mean 'became'

Isaiah 45:18

For this is what the LORD says—
he who created the heavens,
he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it;
he did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited—
he says:
"I am the LORD,
and there is no other.


About the nucleotide decay rates, I have never seen the data you reference concerning negatron manipulation. I have seen studies involving huge gravitational forces, freezing temps to near absolute zero, and exposure to strong magnetic fields, and never seen a study that violates the Radioactive Decay Law or it's corresponding equation. It's been declared a law not only for beta emission, but alpha, gamma, positron, and spontaneous fission as far as I am aware. This Law also provides strong evidence of why Darwinian Evolution can't be true. ;)
 
To elaborate on this statement:
Religion - the biggest cause of war, fear and persecution in our history. - Fact. Don't try to argue that one.
First of all, being that I have lived my life for the majority fighting Wars, it's not religion that fuels it... greed, money, insecurity, and for the simple theory that every man is born evil, are the vast major reasons. Those who have no other excuse will pin it on religion because it is so easy. There have been Religious Wars throughout history, but the ones that are being fought today are of nothing more than pure hatred. There again, don’t let the overly-influential Media groups corrupt you in to thinking that it’s Muslims against Christians, when those of us on the inside will tell you differently.
Soseg, you seem to be misinformed, and are on the brink of being nothing more that a regurgitating buffoon. Please look up what the word fact means before you so foolishly, and ignorantly spew it again. If you would like to PROVE A FACT, then you better come to any battle with me fully prepared and have an abundance of ammunition. Bottom line, stop saying things are of factual relevance when it is, in fact, just your opinion. By the way, have you been to War?

And just as a side note: I am not telling anyone that their beliefs are false, nor will I side with anyone other than my own heart. In essence, beliefs will vary from person to person, but facts will not vary.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ What are you trying to prove with that statement? The only thing I see that it proves is that people stood for what they believe in.

Did you know that Peter was crucified upside down on a cross because he did not feel he was good enough to die the same way as Christ? People died cruel torturous deaths for this man. I guess they did it for no reason....?
I wouldn't worry about trying to discuss this with him, or several of them, fbhxc. There's just no point, really.
 
I wouldn't worry about trying to discuss this with him, or several of them, fbhxc. There's just no point, really.

Oh i know lol, talking to an athiest about God is like talking to a brick wall, but I still like to disucss
 
... To subdue is to bring into bondage, so there was someone or somthing that Adam and Eve were to conquor. We already know that satan was present on the earth because he was present in the Garden. Perhaps satan may have had a race of people that were already here as well, there were many people that God instructed his chosen people to not mate and cohabitate with. By God telling Adam and Eve To multiply and fill the Earth and then Subdue it makes you wonder. Obveously the angels could mate with humans because Genesis speaks about it later on. These things could have been going on befor Genesis 1:1. You then began to bring Fallen Angels and Demons into the Picture. They say this is where you get a lot of greek stories from that talk about the demigods and diffrent creatures they used to write stories about. This may even explain aliens and diffrent things that go on untill this day.

I agree. Genesis 3:15 states "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers" So there are 2 races that walk this Earth. The serpent (satan) has a seed line called Nephilim, in competition with the seed of men. The Nephilim are apparently human/demon hybrids, and seem likely to be the reason God feels the need to wipe everything out from time to time, due to genetic contamination from the spawn of fallen agents. "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown." - Genesis 6:4. You are right that this is in accordance with ancient legend and Greek mythology. Later in John 8:31-47, Jesus Himself elaborates about the two seed lines, calling them the Children of Abraham and Children of the Devil. The implications are quite interesting, and sobering.
 
To elaborate on this statement:
First of all, being that I have lived my life for the majority fighting Wars, it's not religion that fuels it... greed, money, insecurity, and for the simple theory that every man is born evil, are the vast major reasons. ...

The Bible says that satan is the 'god of this age' according to John 12:31.

I think these guys summarize it well, the god of this world does hate us all. Too bad they don't see who it is they should hate back, because 'The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers'.

This video is for you Lungz. Truth is ALL that matters, so fight fire with fire my courageous brother!
:usa2:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w49vYuojO5Q"]YouTube - Slayer - Disciple[/ame]
 
I agree. Genesis 3:15 states "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers" So there are 2 races that walk this Earth. The serpent (satan) has a seed line called Nephilim, in competition with the seed of men. The Nephilim are apparently human/demon hybrids, and seem likely to be the reason God feels the need to wipe everything out from time to time, due to genetic contamination from the spawn of fallen agents. "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown." - Genesis 6:4. You are right that this is in accordance with ancient legend and Greek mythology. Later in John 8:31-47, Jesus Himself elaborates about the two seed lines, calling them the Children of Abraham and Children of the Devil. The implications are quite interesting, and sobering.

Yeah, its crazy Doc, when I got a hold of this stype of stuff it blew me away. Its so much bigger then are minds can even conceive. They walk among us, haha. I used to study a lot of conspirace theory, and that stuff would trip me out as well, but I had to back up off of it because you start to get consumed and began to second guess everything you know. I gotta stick with the word above all things even though I belive there is truth in a lot of conspiracey I have read.
 
Yeah, its crazy Doc, when I got a hold of this stype of stuff it blew me away. Its so much bigger then are minds can even conceive. They walk among us, haha. I used to study a lot of conspirace theory, and that stuff would trip me out as well, but I had to back up off of it because you start to get consumed and began to second guess everything you know. I gotta stick with the word above all things even though I belive there is truth in a lot of conspiracey I have read.

Amen brother. In the end, if these things become more of a focus than Christ,who He is, what Hes done and what His will is for our lives (to be transformed into the image of Gods son Jesus Christ (in word, deed and will)) Then we have become deceived ourselves.

This stuff will only be know for certain after weve passed through this life so no real reason to spend too much time on it.
 
There was a gap, bro. The length of which is not clear, neither is it stated as to the events in between G1:1 and G1:2. What in scripture precludes preexisting civilizations or covenants, and why would God command us to repopulate the planet if it had not been previously populated? It's only a theory I admit, but it seems likely IMHO.

Genesis 1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

[a] also can mean 'became'

Isaiah 45:18

For this is what the LORD says—
he who created the heavens,
he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it;
he did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited—
he says:
"I am the LORD,
and there is no other.


About the nucleotide decay rates, I have never seen the data you reference concerning negatron manipulation. I have seen studies involving huge gravitational forces, freezing temps to near absolute zero, and exposure to strong magnetic fields, and never seen a study that violates the Radioactive Decay Law or it's corresponding equation. It's been declared a law not only for beta emission, but alpha, gamma, positron, and spontaneous fission as far as I am aware. This Law also provides strong evidence of why Darwinian Evolution can't be true. ;)

This is a bit of info that I found in checking out the gap theory. Like I said interesting but I'm not sure it's legit or not I vacillate on it and it's a secondary issue and as mmowry said the main focus is Jesus. Never the less here is the snipit and a couple of pictures I found.

The geologic and fossil records are the surviving evidence that God preserved for us to testify to the truth that the Earth is very old and was inhabited for a long period before the seven days of Genesis chapter one. Those records, written in stone, also provide evidence of a long reign of Death upon the old Earth and the end of the old world order by a universal destructive event.

One of the greatest remaining mysteries of modern geology is an episode of mass destruction and extinction which occurred in the recent geological age called the Pleistocene, the age just before the Holocene, which is called the age of Man. This extinction event appears to be closely linked with the Ice Age. Evidence of this global catastrophe consists, in part, of vast "animal cemeteries," found many places around the world, which seem to show a catastrophic and sudden destruction of life all across the planet only a few thousand years ago. This evidence was documented by many back in the 19th century, but this evidence is mostly ignored by the leading scientists of our day because it does not fit into the prevailing Evolutionary paradigm. The Young Earth Creationists, however, have seized upon these reports as their proof of Noah's flood. We will show that this evidence, in actuality, is the proof of a global extinction event and flood which happened before Noah's flood; indeed before the time of Genesis 1:2, and was only a component of a universal catastrophic event which saw the end of all life on the surface of the Earth before the sevens days of Genesis. At various places throughout this website we will present this evidence and discuss its relevance within the context of the Biblical time line. That time line is discussed in detail on the page which follows this one.

Clearly, if we believe the literal wording of the Bible, there was indeed a universal creative event during the seven days of Genesis, about 6,000 literal years ago. But the literal wording of the Bible and the Earth's geology reveals that there is more to the story - it was not the original creation of all things. Understanding the time gap in Genesis opens a vast knowledge gap. You just can't rely on your own understanding or the traditions of man to obtain this knowledge. You have to TRUST THE BOOK.

"For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
(Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV)


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You go to thread tools up at the top and then hit unsub. So let me get this straight You believe someone or something created this World. Lets say for an instance you believed it was the christian god, you were just struggling with some of they points made in the bible. If a God mighty enough to make an entire universe can do that, why could he not make a bush burn and talk? or save the world from a flood by an old man and two of every creature? Seems to me there is a contradiction of power there.

Since you asked........

Without life God (not he, she, it, God is pretty much all the energy, matter, consciousness and will in the universe. God is infinite) is alone. God created life to not be alone. I believe the valid points of the bible stop early on in Genesis. God is now infinite energy/matter/consciousness/will experiencing existence through finite forms of those 4 things. Could God do these things? Yes. Would God do these things? I do not know. I just know it no longer goes on if it ever did so I choose not to believe it. I can not imagine a being that powerful caring if I or you sin. I believe a lot of things in the bible happened but the stories are blown out of proportion. I think God does not care and is emotionless. Thats why little kids die, and good people have bad things happen. It is all for God's amusement. Not in a bad way. It is just life. Without life God is pretty much bored.
 
About the nucleotide decay rates, I have never seen the data you reference concerning negatron manipulation. I have seen studies involving huge gravitational forces, freezing temps to near absolute zero, and exposure to strong magnetic fields, and never seen a study that violates the Radioactive Decay Law or it's corresponding equation. It's been declared a law not only for beta emission, but alpha, gamma, positron, and spontaneous fission as far as I am aware. This Law also provides strong evidence of why Darwinian Evolution can't be true. ;)

Here is the source of that info I quoted, let me know what you think of this. I am aware that to strip the electrons from the atoms would require unbelievable amounts of energy, but "in the beginning God created" could have used unprecedented amounts of energy could it not?

Billion-fold acceleration of radioactivity demonstrated in laboratory

by John Woodmorappe

Our understanding of ostensibly long-lived radioactive ‘clocks’, in the light of the Creationist-Diluvialist paradigm, must necessarily consider both geologic and physical factors. Among the latter are decay-rate changes, and these may include a variety of superimposed processes occurring at the same or at different times in the several-thousand year history of the universe. Up to now, creationist research has summarized evidences of small decay-rate changes, as well as theoretical analyses suggestive of the possibility of more extreme changes in radioactive decay rates (the latter usually dependent upon corresponding changes in fundamental physical constants1). Here I report the experimental demonstration of radioactive decay-rate acceleration by an astonishing nine orders of magnitude. It requires special conditions but, in and of itself, no alteration of known physical constants.

This acceleration can occur under beta (negatron) decay. During b decay itself, a neutron changes into a proton, electron and electron-antineutrino, and the electron is expelled as a negative beta particle (b- —often written without the negative sign, but sometimes it is necessary to distinguish it from the rarer positive beta or positron decay b+). Because the protons in the nucleus and the b particles have opposite charges, they attract each other, and the b– must therefore acquire sufficient kinetic energy to overcome this attraction in order to escape the nucleus. This has been likened to a particle having sufficient energy to crash through the walls of a well.2 In some b– emitters, the successful escape of a b-particle into the continuum is a relatively infrequent occurrence—hence the inferred long half life (t½) of the nuclide.
Accelerated b decay
Diagram of ordinary v bound state beta decay
(a) Atom showing the 1s electron orbital. The orbital is full. (b) The same atom in a completely ionised state. The atom has been stripped of its electrons. The energy required to escape an atom when the electron shell is filled (a) is greater than the energy required for the electron to jump to a vacant spot in an electron shell (b). r* is the distance from nucleus where finding an electron is most probable. For a 1s orbital r*=a0/Z where a0 = Bohr radius @ 52.9 pm; Z=atomic number.



The foregoing discussion assumes that electrons surround the nucleus, which of course is nearly always the case. For over 50 years, however, some theoreticians had suggested that negatron decay could be altered in the case of a nucleus bereft of its electrons (as occurs in a plasma state). Perhaps the b-particle attempting to leave a bare nucleus would have to overcome a much lower threshold of kinetic energy than if the electrons were absent. The fleeing b– particle could take refuge in a vacant electron orbital around the nucleus instead of attempting to escape all the way into the continuum. This process is called bound-state b– decay (or bb decay). Subsequently, theoretical analyses3 suggested that a significant perturbation of radioactive decay rates could occur in the nuclides of 25 different elements as a consequence of bb decay.

Experimental demonstration of the actual existence of bb decay, however, did not occur until the 1990s. 163Dy, a stable nuclide under normal-Earth conditions, was found to decay to 163Ho, with t½ = 47 days, under the bare-nucleus conditions of the completely ionized state.4 More recently, bb decay has been experimentally demonstrated in the rhenium-osmium (187Re-187Os) system. (The Re-Os method is one of the isotopic ‘clocks’ used by uniformitarian geologists5 to supposedly date rocks.) The experiment involved the circulation of fully-ionized 187Re in a storage ring. The 187Re ions were found to decay to a measurable extent in only several hours, amounting to a half-life of only 33 years.6 This represents a staggering billion-fold increase over the conventional half-life, which is 42 Ga! (Ga = giga-annum = a billion (109) years).
A Creation Week scenario

Now, let us visualize the following situation at the beginning of Creation Week. As God creates the atoms which will subsequently be assembled into all of the matter that will constitute all of the objects in the physical universe, He first creates them all in a completely ionised state (i.e. nuclei alone). This plasma persists for several hours on the First Day, during which time bb decay freely takes place under the bare-nucleus conditions of all of the atoms. This process, though, is insufficient by itself to generate billions of years’ worth of excess 187Os.7 However, if there were a simultaneous weakening of the presently-existing nuclear force, as suggested by Humphreys,8 the Re-Os ‘clock’ would be accelerated another few orders of magnitude. Not only the Re-Os clock, but probably many other radioactive (and even stable) nuclides would experience appreciable amounts of bb decay under the bare-nucleus conditions of the plasma. We note that the potential or actual bb decay gives a large ‘head start’ to extreme accelerations of radioactive decay. Thus the postulated weakening of the nuclear force7 may need to be far less drastic than originally supposed (when assumed to be acting upon non-ionized atoms) to generate billions of years’ worth of decay products in several hours.

It turns out that bb decay is not the only mechanism by which some ostensibly long-age ‘clocks’ can experience major accelerations in radioactive decay rate. Consider the lutetium-hafnium (176Lu-176Hf) system, which is relatively new, and which is infrequently used by uniformitarian geologists to supposedly date rocks.9 At very high temperatures, part of the 176Lu decay to 176Hf bypasses the conventional slow route, and goes into an isomeric state which has a half-life of only 3.68 hours.10 In other words, part of the 176Lu decay experiences an alternative decay mode to 176Hf which represents, in effect, a shortcut that is 14 orders of magnitude faster than the conventional 176Lu decay (t½ = 41 Ga). Moreover, in this particular instance, no changes in the nuclear force are necessary. Extreme temperatures suffice, and the greater they are, the shorter the effective half life of 176Lu decay to 176Hf. In terms of specifics, at temperatures below about 200 million K, t½ remains unperturbed at about 41 Ga. But, over the interval of 200 to 300 MK, the effective t½ drops precipitously (by nearly 10 orders of magnitude), then begins to level off asymptotically at still higher temperatures. Thus, at 600 MK, the effective t½ of 176Lu is only about 8 days!11 This is short enough that if, as discussed earlier, all of the atoms in the universe had been created in a very hot state—which just means very high kinetic energies—(and maintained that way for several hours on the First Day), all the excess 176Hf in existence would have been generated within that short period.

The rapidly-accumulated products of the accelerated radioactive decay subsequently became part of every object in the created universe, albeit at differing concentrations. During the remainder of the Creation Week, as God cooled and organized the plasma into solid celestial objects, such as planets, the excess radiogenic isotopes became partitioned into the relevant mineral phases, perhaps according to accelerated geochemical processes. The modern uniformitarian geologist misreads this deployment of the radiogenic isotopes as isochrons indicative of up to billions of years to time. This span of time never happened.
Conclusion

This exciting demonstration that isotopic ‘clocks’ can be accelerated at least a billion-fold is good news to creationist scholars. It raises fundamental questions about the temporal stability of isotopic ‘clocks’. What else have we failed to consider in terms of the physics of radioactive decay? The myth of the virtual invincibility of radioactive decay to external forces has been decisively shattered, and the door to further research has now been swung wide open.
References

1. Chaffin, E.F., theoretical mechanism of accelerated radioactive decay; in: Vardiman, L. et al., Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth (right), Institute for Creation Research, El Cajon, California and Creation Research Society, Missouri, 305–331, 2000. See also Radioactive decay rate depends on chemical environment] Return to text.
2. Alpha (a) decay has also been likened to particles bouncing around inside a well (a potential energy well created by a combination of nucleus’s positive charge and the ‘strong’ nuclear force) until some of them acquire sufficient kinetic energy to jump through one of its walls: Humphreys, D.R. Accelerated nuclear decay: A viable hypothesis? in: Vardiman et al., Ref. 1, pp. 333–379. This is the standard Gamow theory, and is often referred to as quantum mechanical tunnelling. In a-decay, the electrons are largely irrelevant. Humphreys suggests, based on an application of the standard theory, that a small diminishing of the nuclear potential, however, has allowed a-decay to be accelerated a billion-fold or more. Return to text.
3. Takahashi, K. et al., Bound-state beta decay of highly ionized atoms, Physical Review C36(4)1522–1527, 1987. Return to text.
4. Jung, M. et al. First observation of bound-state b– decay, Physical Review Letters 69(15)2164–2167, 1992. Return to text.
5. Woodmorappe, J., The Mythology of Modern Dating Methods, Institute for Creation Research, El Cajon, California, 1999 (top right). See pages 25, 49, 67–68 for the many fallacies of the Re-Os dating method. Return to text.
6. Bosch, F. et al., Observation of bound-state b– decay of fully ionized 187Re, Physical Review Letters 77(26)5190–5193, 1996. For further discussion of this experiment, see: Kienle, P., Beta-decay experiments and astrophysical implications, in: Prantzos, N. and Harissopulus, S., Proceedings, Nuclei in the Cosmos, pp. 181–186, 1999. Return to text.
7. Note that bound-state bb decay accelerates the Re-Os ‘clock’ by 9 orders of magnitude. However, in order to compress 4.5 Ga worth of ‘normal’ radioactive decay into the several hours of the First Day of Creation Week, the Re-Os ‘clock’ would need to be accelerated by another 5 orders of magnitude.There has been some concern expressed that radioactive decay would be inconsistent with God creating the universe ‘very good’. There is always the danger of reading too much into the ‘very good’ statement, and the context indicates that ‘very good’ refers to the absence of suffering and death for man and other sentient creatures before the Fall. Radioactive decay does not, of course, have anything in comon with the death and decay of sentient beings. Moreover, radioactive decay involves the transformation of one nuclide into another, and does not have any connotation of imperfection in the Creation. Return to text.
8. Humphreys, Ref. 2, p. 362. Return to text.
9. For a discussion of some of the flaws already evident in the new Lu-Hf dating method, see Woodmorappe, Ref. 5, p. 68. Return to text.
10. Kappeler, F., Beer, H., and K., Wisshak, S-process nucleosynthesis—nuclear physics and the classical model, Reports on Progress in Physics 52:1006–1008, 1989. Return to text.
11. Klay, N. et al., Nuclear structure of 176Lu and its astrophysical consequences, Physical Review C44(6):2847–2848, 1991. Return to text.
 
ok im not even reading these replies

saying religion is not the biggest cause of war throughout the last few centuries is ridiculous

im keeping my opinions to myself from now on. i feel like i am talking with children or brainwashed weirdos. cya. im unsubscribed
 
ok im not even reading these replies

saying religion is not the biggest cause of war throughout the last few centuries is ridiculous

im keeping my opinions to myself from now on. i feel like i am talking with children or brainwashed weirdos. cya. im unsubscribed
Your avatar looks really annoyed by this thread.
 
ok im not even reading these replies

saying religion is not the biggest cause of war throughout the last few centuries is ridiculous

im keeping my opinions to myself from now on. i feel like i am talking with children or brainwashed weirdos. cya. im unsubscribed

Which wars in the past few centuries were religiously motivated? Like Iron Lungz said you post things as fact when they are anything but. Your claim is wrong and if it is not then prove it is not; list the wars you are referring to. Here in the United States = Wars of US: French and Indian War (7 Years War) American Revolution, War of 1812, Indian Wars (1817-1898) Mexican War, Civil War, Spanish-American War, World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War,Grenada Invasion, 1983 Persian Gulf (Desert Storm) Current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.We have also engaged in several undeclared war, such as the undeclared Naval War with France and the War with the Barbary Pirates under Jefferson. There isn't a single one in that list motivated by religion and that's a bit over 2 centuries. That's factual information not my opinion.
 
Which wars in the past few centuries were religiously motivated? Like Iron Lungz said you post things as fact when they are anything but. Your claim is wrong and if it is not then prove it is not; list the wars you are referring to. Here in the United States = Wars of US: French and Indian War (7 Years War) American Revolution, War of 1812, Indian Wars (1817-1898) Mexican War, Civil War, Spanish-American War, World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War,Grenada Invasion, 1983 Persian Gulf (Desert Storm) Current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.We have also engaged in several undeclared war, such as the undeclared Naval War with France and the War with the Barbary Pirates under Jefferson. There isn't a single one in that list motivated by religion and that's a bit over 2 centuries. That's factual information not my opinion.

ww2 / afghanistan / iraq not religiously motivated? so hitler's ultimate plan wasnt to exterminate jews? islamic extremists didnt provoke america into taking action in the middle east due to their fundamentalist religious views to wipe out enemies of their religion as they see it? go back a bit further in time before the 19th or 18th century and you'll find wars a lot bigger (ww1/ww2 excluded) than our recent ones in terms of lives lost... stories of persecution and killing due to different beliefs... nearly all of it comes back to religion as people love to disagree and kill eachother over it

what about everything in the middle east? palestine... israel... what about sri lanka? northern ireland? er? bosnia? and all the other little wars in and around west russia / former yugoslavian areas that are fuelled by religious differences? yea right... i guess they're not religiously fuelled...

like i said, go back further in time especially into the middle ages... theres a lot of wars back then which were pretty much religiously motivated

"my god has a bigger d-i-c-k than your god" theory
 
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