Gaining muscles while losing fat. HGP tries the impossible, watch me fail!

Chados said:
Yeah that's a smart thing to focus on. I prefer it regardless of age. I used to be bulky but it takes away so much from your overall wellness. SD is great keeping muscle on but I don't think it's great to cut with.

you have a good frame so losing some weight shouldn't cause some massive loss in size.
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Yeah it's just not one that will shred fat but being arguably the best massbuilder ever produced and being fairly dry it obviously works great to build and preserve during a cut.
 
hairygrandpa said:
I swear, I have ALL the negative sides from ANY roid -besides S-drol. Its weird. No diminished hunger, only a bit upped BP, no ill feeling at all.

It feels good. As I said, it did not "pump me up" in the past like it does with others. It gave me some strength, like 20% more in the gym. On off days not feeling different, besides some headaches, easily curbed with aspirin.

My last cycle was about 4 weeks on 20mg/d. Kept it short, mostly because I saw no recomp -but a cut. I was an idiot. I should have changed my diet and finish 6 weeks cutting.

Now with keto, back loading and slin -I have the feeling it will give better results. This time I go for the "gymnast look".
S-drol seems to be "carb hungry". If I would go high carb -I bet I would look bigger overall due to glycogen retention.

Be aware, most people can't even finish a 3 weeks cycle of s-drol. 10mg/d + some DMZ is a good idea if you tolerated DMZ in the past.
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Right now I am definitely in on the gymnast look... Not looking massive at all but I look good.
Hyde said:
I’ve never used Sdrol, and you’re entitled to your opinions certainly, but many a bodybuilder has contended that Sdrol is actually the perfect cutting oral, provided you can control your diet on it.
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I agree whole heartedly.
Chados said:
Yeah it's just not one that will shred fat but being arguably the best massbuilder ever produced and being fairly dry it obviously works great to build and preserve during a cut.
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Oh, I don't know about that, highly androgenic compounds most definitely aid a lot in fat loss. The effect they have on the AR in fat cells is beneficial for fat loss. I think if you can handle it SD is basically the tren of orals... YOu want to shred, SD, you want strength = SD, you want lbs of pure muscle =SD...
I would say that even 10mg a day for 6 weeks or so is a great way to recomp.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Right now I am definitely in on the gymnast look... Not looking massive at all but I look good.

I agree whole heartedly.


Oh, I don't know about that, highly androgenic compounds most definitely aid a lot in fat loss. The effect they have on the AR in fat cells is beneficial for fat loss. I think if you can handle it SD is basically the tren of orals... YOu want to shred, SD, you want strength = SD, you want lbs of pure muscle =SD...
I would say that even 10mg a day for 6 weeks or so is a great way to recomp.
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Yes but SD is extremely low androgenic, it's on pair with anavar so a woman could run it quite safely.
 
Chados said:
Yes but SD is extremely low androgenic, it's on pair with anavar so a woman could run it quite safely.
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You know it is funny, I know this, I have looked it up several times, but my mind keeps referring to it as being more androgenic... I have no idea why. It sure feels androgenic when on it which is probably why. I get moody as a mofo and aggressive from it. Could be the reaction to other hormonal changes it causes.

HOWEVER, that still doesn't change the fact that I still compare it to the oral tren when it comes to effects. I have never used it and not got leaner, even when I was trying to gain. I have always gained a fugton of strength on it. Plus everyone says Winny is great for cutting and it too is very anabolic in nature. Same with Anavar... Kind of interesting.
 
MrKleen73 said:
You know it is funny, I know this, I have looked it up several times, but my mind keeps referring to it as being more androgenic... I have no idea why. It sure feels androgenic when on it which is probably why. I get moody as a mofo and aggressive from it. Could be the reaction to other hormonal changes it causes.

HOWEVER, that still doesn't change the fact that I still compare it to the oral tren when it comes to effects. I have never used it and not got leaner, even when I was trying to gain. I have always gained a fugton of strength on it. Plus everyone says Winny is great for cutting and it too is very anabolic in nature. Same with Anavar... Kind of interesting.
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Haha yeah these ratios doesn't always give the full picture. Winstrol is more androgenic than these though and it's noticible. I agree 100% that superdrol can lean you out and the comparison to oral tren might be fair but superdrol is just so much stronger at building muscles, the nutrient partioning would probably be better at a higher calorie intake than sd.

Oral tren is soso, you kinda wanna go with injectible, now injectible sd is surely much stronger than even tren especially mg/mg and a much better bulker.
 
Chados said:
Haha yeah these ratios doesn't always give the full picture. Winstrol is more androgenic than these though and it's noticible. I agree 100% that superdrol can lean you out and the comparison to oral tren might be fair but superdrol is just so much stronger at building muscles, the nutrient partioning would probably be better at a higher calorie intake than sd.

Oral tren is soso, you kinda wanna go with injectible, now injectible sd is surely much stronger than even tren especially mg/mg and a much better bulker.
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Yeah, it is odd. When you wrote that initially I was like DAMN IT!!! I did it again!!! I am a wimp and can only use SD at about 10mg at time for any extended period. Running even 20 becomes very well sucky to be blunt around 10 days and by 14 I am DONE!!!! Just blech feeling, but I could rock the 15-30mg DMZ on off days, and 15mg DMZ/10mg SD on training days for about 6 weeks comfortably... Man I miss my LGI stuff too, that stuff was always rock solid even at lower doses...
 
HGP you know anything about the Metabolic Blowtorch Diet? Seems right up your alley. I am going to try and get a copy. If I do I don’t mind sharing it...
 
MrKleen73 said:
Yeah, it is odd. When you wrote that initially I was like DAMN IT!!! I did it again!!! I am a wimp and can only use SD at about 10mg at time for any extended period. Running even 20 becomes very well sucky to be blunt around 10 days and by 14 I am DONE!!!! Just blech feeling, but I could rock the 15-30mg DMZ on off days, and 15mg DMZ/10mg SD on training days for about 6 weeks comfortably... Man I miss my LGI stuff too, that stuff was always rock solid even at lower doses...
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Yeah it seems to be more people who feel **** on sd than the other way around. Quite smart to run it at 10mg i must say, you diminish most if not all sides, the toxicity is fairly low on both cholesterol and BP, you have an almost non existing androgenic compound and still at 10mg its almost as strong as it gets with the myotropic side of it.
 
Chados said:
Yeah it seems to be more people who feel **** on sd than the other way around. Quite smart to run it at 10mg i must say, you diminish most if not all sides, the toxicity is fairly low on both cholesterol and BP, you have an almost non existing androgenic compound and still at 10mg its almost as strong as it gets with the myotropic side of it.
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The difference between DMZ and S-drol are only two nitrogen atoms, I guess mixing those two compounds is synergistic.
What I notice most is a almost daily changing physique, I called it earlier "morphing around". Its like the body is shifting water and glycogen around.
One day I look smaller and more puffy, the next I can see veins... its weird. Not all positive changes.
 
hairygrandpa said:
The difference between DMZ and S-drol are only two nitrogen atoms, I guess mixing those two compounds is synergistic.
What I notice most is a almost daily changing physique, I called it earlier "morphing around". Its like the body is shifting water and glycogen around.
One day I look smaller and more puffy, the next I can see veins... its weird. Not all positive changes.
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That last sentence isn't you just talking about your dick is it?
 
hairygrandpa said:
The difference between DMZ and S-drol are only two nitrogen atoms, I guess mixing those two compounds is synergistic.
What I notice most is a almost daily changing physique, I called it earlier "morphing around". Its like the body is shifting water and glycogen around.
One day I look smaller and more puffy, the next I can see veins... its weird. Not all positive changes.
Click to expand...

Yeah and it is my understanding that when the molecule binding them breaks down 1 half of the compound becomes SD. So supposedly 20mg of DMZ made 10mg of a weaker compound, and 10mg of SD. Of course this was all from way back and I am not sure if that is true or not. I just remember it being hyped that way.

Can anyone verify if I am remembering that correctly? I mean I can see calling 30mg DMZ as effective as or possibly even more effectice than 15mg SD, but I honestly don't remember if that part was true or if it was just the first product I ran that was that way which was the OG SuperDMZ. Man that crap was beast mode!!! I gained 20lbs in 3 weeks running the UD2 diet with it, but had to stop due to sides.
 
EMPIREMIND said:
HGP you know anything about the Metabolic Blowtorch Diet? Seems right up your alley. I am going to try and get a copy. If I do I don’t mind sharing it...
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I would love to see this !!
 
hairygrandpa said:
The difference between DMZ and S-drol are only two nitrogen atoms, I guess mixing those two compounds is synergistic.
What I notice most is a almost daily changing physique, I called it earlier "morphing around". Its like the body is shifting water and glycogen around.
One day I look smaller and more puffy, the next I can see veins... its weird. Not all positive changes.
Click to expand...

Yeah I know there's just some slight change to them but it did make dmz a weaker compound so stacking them would probably be safer and more friendly with sides but I don't think it gets stronger than adding more sd.
 
Gym

Did my intuitive, fast paced full body workout. Pairing always 2 exercises for the same muscles in supersets, like cable flies with elevated push ups, smith reverse shrugs with seated DB shrugs, Lat pull downs with lat press downs, linear leg press with smith slow-mo squats. Not much pump, because nill glycogen. Strength is up. Skipped cardio, because I was toast after this.

2 meals post workout + 1 snack:
1. 400gr tilapia filet
2. 400gr chicken breast
3. 150gr peanuts

Tomorrow off, unless I feel recovered.
If recovered: carb backload day1 (250gr)+ slin/ followed by a second carb back load day (250gr)+ slin
 
MrKleen73 said:
Yeah and it is my understanding that when the molecule binding them breaks down 1 half of the compound becomes SD. So supposedly 20mg of DMZ made 10mg of a weaker compound, and 10mg of SD. Of course this was all from way back and I am not sure if that is true or not. I just remember it being hyped that way.

Can anyone verify if I am remembering that correctly? I mean I can see calling 30mg DMZ as effective as or possibly even more effectice than 15mg SD, but I honestly don't remember if that part was true or if it was just the first product I ran that was that way which was the OG SuperDMZ. Man that crap was beast mode!!! I gained 20lbs in 3 weeks running the UD2 diet with it, but had to stop due to sides.
Click to expand...
I've recently read that DMZ, although 2 Sdrol molecules bound by azine nitrogen... Is actually active on it's own. So it's not just breaking back down into S-drol when consumed.

Which explains why it's as strong as S-drol but different side effect profile.
 
hairygrandpa said:
Gym

Did my intuitive, fast paced full body workout. Pairing always 2 exercises for the same muscles in supersets, like cable flies with elevated push ups, smith reverse shrugs with seated DB shrugs, Lat pull downs with lat press downs, linear leg press with smith slow-mo squats. Not much pump, because nill glycogen. Strength is up. Skipped cardio, because I was toast after this.

2 meals post workout + 1 snack:
1. 400gr tilapia filet
2. 400gr chicken breast
3. 150gr peanuts

Tomorrow off, unless I feel recovered.
If recovered: carb backload day1 (250gr)+ slin/ followed by a second carb back load day (250gr)+ slin
Click to expand...

That's a lot of meat, I cut down hard and averaging 300gr now. Should be 160-170gr of protein just from the meat right?
 
Be careful with the insulin, that stuff scares me !!
 
EMPIREMIND said:
So I got a hold of the physical book, but I sent in a request for the pdf. If I get it I will forward it on! It’s pretty cool stuff and a lot of what you already do, just structures things a little differently
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I had a feeling it was probably very similar to what he was already doing. Right now he is basically doing the IF version of CNS for contest prep too. Curious on the layout.
 
MrKleen73 said:
I had a feeling it was probably very similar to what he was already doing. Right now he is basically doing the IF version of CNS for contest prep too. Curious on the layout.
Click to expand...

I will send it over if I get it. I may just buy the ebook but I think it’s only in kindle version....
 
MrKleen73 said:
Yeah and it is my understanding that when the molecule binding them breaks down 1 half of the compound becomes SD. So supposedly 20mg of DMZ made 10mg of a weaker compound, and 10mg of SD. Of course this was all from way back and I am not sure if that is true or not. I just remember it being hyped that way.

Can anyone verify if I am remembering that correctly? I mean I can see calling 30mg DMZ as effective as or possibly even more effectice than 15mg SD, but I honestly don't remember if that part was true or if it was just the first product I ran that was that way which was the OG SuperDMZ. Man that crap was beast mode!!! I gained 20lbs in 3 weeks running the UD2 diet with it, but had to stop due to sides.
Click to expand...

Not to derail this, but quickly - what’s the UD2 diet?

Always interested in new dietary manipulations I can ignore to remain 20% bf
 
Hyde said:
Not to derail this, but quickly - what’s the UD2 diet?

Always interested in new dietary manipulations I can ignore to remain 20% bf
Click to expand...

The UD2 diet is The Ultimate Diet 2.0 which is Lyle McDonald's newer and updated version of the Ultimate diet. Basically it is 5 days in a steep deficit and ketosis, then 2 days, of lower fat, lower protein and CARB HEAVY refeeds that take place after specific workouts.

You do depleting workouts during the week, then the final half day of ketosis you do a hypertrophy based full body, then start your carb up. The following day you do a heavier lower rep full body then complete the rest of your carb up over the next 24 hours. In the book it kind of tells you hot to figure out how much your refeed should be but it is much more than the usual refeed as the main goal is to increase leptin due to extreme carb consumption.

Similar to what you will see in the CNS diet you get the 5 days no carbs which stops the enzyme that is used to convert carbohydrate to to fat for storage from being excreted. So the fat gain from the refeed is pretty much nil, but you do tend to spill over, and I always felt that carb hangover for at least a day after the carb up. However the diet was extremely effective both on gear, and using it Natty.

I am sure if I dig around I can find the PDF somewhere on my drive at home and share it with you if interested.
 
MrKleen73 said:
The UD2 diet is The Ultimate Diet 2.0 which is Lyle McDonald's newer and updated version of the Ultimate diet. Basically it is 5 days in a steep deficit and ketosis, then 2 days, of lower fat, lower protein and CARB HEAVY refeeds that take place after specific workouts.

You do depleting workouts during the week, then the final half day of ketosis you do a hypertrophy based full body, then start your carb up. The following day you do a heavier lower rep full body then complete the rest of your carb up over the next 24 hours. In the book it kind of tells you hot to figure out how much your refeed should be but it is much more than the usual refeed as the main goal is to increase leptin due to extreme carb consumption.

Similar to what you will see in the CNS diet you get the 5 days no carbs which stops the enzyme that is used to convert carbohydrate to to fat for storage from being excreted. So the fat gain from the refeed is pretty much nil, but you do tend to spill over, and I always felt that carb hangover for at least a day after the carb up. However the diet was extremely effective both on gear, and using it Natty.

I am sure if I dig around I can find the PDF somewhere on my drive at home and share it with you if interested.
Click to expand...

Didnt know there was a name for this haha, that's quite close to how I eat but I'm not in a deficit
 
Chados said:
Didnt know there was a name for this haha, that's quite close to how I eat but I'm not in a deficit
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That would be a great way to maintain composition, or do a nice lean bulk if done correctly.
 
MrKleen73 said:
The UD2 diet is The Ultimate Diet 2.0 which is Lyle McDonald's newer and updated version of the Ultimate diet. Basically it is 5 days in a steep deficit and ketosis, then 2 days, of lower fat, lower protein and CARB HEAVY refeeds that take place after specific workouts.

You do depleting workouts during the week, then the final half day of ketosis you do a hypertrophy based full body, then start your carb up. The following day you do a heavier lower rep full body then complete the rest of your carb up over the next 24 hours. In the book it kind of tells you hot to figure out how much your refeed should be but it is much more than the usual refeed as the main goal is to increase leptin due to extreme carb consumption.

Similar to what you will see in the CNS diet you get the 5 days no carbs which stops the enzyme that is used to convert carbohydrate to to fat for storage from being excreted. So the fat gain from the refeed is pretty much nil, but you do tend to spill over, and I always felt that carb hangover for at least a day after the carb up. However the diet was extremely effective both on gear, and using it Natty.

I am sure if I dig around I can find the PDF somewhere on my drive at home and share it with you if interested.
Click to expand...
This is almost exactly what ive been doing the last few months, but i havent limited my protien and fat during carb ups. But thats more been lack of willpower, ive always heard not to mix fats and carbs. Why do you think it limits protien though? Especially after strength and hypertrophy training. Anyway, im interested if you do find that pdf.

Man, some crazy good info throughout this thread.
 
Fasted said:
This is almost exactly what ive been doing the last few months, but i havent limited my protien and fat during carb ups. But thats more been lack of willpower, ive always heard not to mix fats and carbs. Why do you think it limits protien though? Especially after strength and hypertrophy training. Anyway, im interested if you do find that pdf.

Man, some crazy good info throughout this thread.
Click to expand...

Limiting the fat and protein intake on this diet is more to do with making room for carbs by limiting satiation. Protein and fat both make you feel full faster so they tend to limit protein to no more than 1g per lb but as low as 100 is not a problem either. There is a thing called the amino acid pool in your bloodstream and there are always aminos in this. Any time a protein is eaten, or broken down for use any of the unused aminos go back into the amino pool. The body really recycles aminos a lot. Since you spend the week with ample amounts of protein your amino acid pool is pretty full, and just decent well timed protein doses are all that are needed. Plus carbohydrate is extremely protein sparing so the protein you eat will pretty much all be going toward being building blocks.

Basically in this particular situation your protein needs are a no issue so long as you get in say .5g / lb... I think it recommended for me to run it at like 100-150g of protein. It has been a very long time since I read it. If I find it I will PM you with my email address.
 
MrKleen73 said:
The UD2 diet is The Ultimate Diet 2.0 which is Lyle McDonald's newer and updated version of the Ultimate diet. Basically it is 5 days in a steep deficit and ketosis, then 2 days, of lower fat, lower protein and CARB HEAVY refeeds that take place after specific workouts.

You do depleting workouts during the week, then the final half day of ketosis you do a hypertrophy based full body, then start your carb up. The following day you do a heavier lower rep full body then complete the rest of your carb up over the next 24 hours. In the book it kind of tells you hot to figure out how much your refeed should be but it is much more than the usual refeed as the main goal is to increase leptin due to extreme carb consumption.

Similar to what you will see in the CNS diet you get the 5 days no carbs which stops the enzyme that is used to convert carbohydrate to to fat for storage from being excreted. So the fat gain from the refeed is pretty much nil, but you do tend to spill over, and I always felt that carb hangover for at least a day after the carb up. However the diet was extremely effective both on gear, and using it Natty.

I am sure if I dig around I can find the PDF somewhere on my drive at home and share it with you if interested.
Click to expand...

Can’t forget Dan Duchaine’s Body Opus
 
Sh1t.

Yesterday I found 2 sealed tubs "Decimate ECA" (DMAA+Ephedra) in my fridge. Old stack from 2017.
Took one capsule this morning and dude, this sh1t kicks azz....I totally forgot about this magic potion.
I have to force feed myself, because my appetite is nil and energy through the roof.
Broke several records in the fugging gym, today was carb back load + Insulin + cyalis. Veins all over, my friends were stunned how swole I got.
Hammered out 35 reps close grip bench with 135lbs. Standing biceps curls with 65lbs DB's while smiling (forced smile and a little bit of turd in pants).
Striations in upper chest way more visible now, abs are still lacking behind, despite eod dragonflags and crunches. Maybe genetics, who knows.

Update pics in a few days when changes are more pronounced.
 
Since my abs suck, I gonna show my back:

Invalid Link Removed

Others have sort of a tree shaped muscle on the back. I'm not sure what I'm looking at here. Do I have to be leaner to have more back muscle definition, or am I missing a whole group of muscles?
 
hairygrandpa said:
Since my abs suck, I gonna show my back:

Invalid Link Removed

Others have sort of a tree shaped muscle on the back. I'm not sure what I'm looking at here. Do I have to be leaner to have more back muscle definition, or am I missing a whole group of muscles?
Click to expand...

Your back is much leaner than mine for sure. The traps are prominent than anything. Lats; not so much.
 
jtmass said:
Your back is much leaner than mine for sure. The traps are prominent than anything. Lats; not so much.
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I would like to have more pronounced lats and traps, I think both are under-developed. It's weird, because those muscles are what I'm good at, like weighted chin ups, straight arm lat press down with 80+ lbs. I feel my shoulders are a bit big, even though I hardly use any weights when doing shoulder exercises. Calves are lagging badly in proportion too. Biceps could need 2-5 inches more too... :)
 
hairygrandpa said:
I would like to have more pronounced lats and traps, I think both are under-developed. It's weird, because those muscles are what I'm good at, like weighted chin ups, straight arm lat press down with 80+ lbs. I feel my shoulders are a bit big, even though I hardly use any weights when doing shoulder exercises. Calves are lagging badly in proportion too. Biceps could need 2-5 inches more too... :)
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Shoulders from behind are monsters! All 3 heads very much separated..
Welcome to the #nocalfclub and why not out the extra 2-5inch on your dik rather than biceps..
 
jtmass said:
Shoulders from behind are monsters! All 3 heads very much separated..
Welcome to the #nocalfclub and why not out the extra 2-5inch on your dik rather than biceps..
Click to expand...

If you only look at my calfs, they are not as bad... but in proportion they are ridiculously girly. I don't wanna be member of the #nocalfclub.

For lats, what can I fugging do? Obviously no chin ups, press downs -or pull downs. Have mastered them already, all with serious weights. High rows maybe? Kroc rows? T-bar rows not, I do them with up to 7 plates, dammit.
 
hairygrandpa said:
Since my abs suck, I gonna show my back:

Invalid Link Removed

Others have sort of a tree shaped muscle on the back. I'm not sure what I'm looking at here. Do I have to be leaner to have more back muscle definition, or am I missing a whole group of muscles?
Click to expand...
I would like to steal your outer biceps and get my shoulders upto par with yours. You have good back definition like mwah, but we both have trouble with lat flare.
 
PoSiTiVeFLoW said:
I would like to steal your outer biceps and get my shoulders upto par with yours. You have good back definition like mwah, but we both have trouble with lat flare.
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Yep...those puzzy lats. I swear, they work great -but don't look great...like Volkswagen cars.
 
PoSiTiVeFLoW said:
I would like to steal your outer biceps and get my shoulders upto par with yours. You have good back definition like mwah, but we both have trouble with lat flare.
Click to expand...

Maybe if I amputate my arms the lats look bigger...
 
Anyone?

For better looking lats, what can I do? Obviously no chin ups, press downs -or pull downs. Have mastered them already, all with serious weights. T-bar rows also not, I do them with up to 7 plates, dammit.

*High rows maybe? Kroc rows? Banging my wife in awkward positions?
 
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