Epistane = Phera-Plex....WTF??

Schism

Banned
I,m sure this will probably start some kind of an uproar on this board so I want to clearly state: The following is a word for word out-take from "The Clear Chemist" an article in the very popular MD magazine written by no other than Patrick Arnold Himself.
When referring to the drug 2a,3a,Epithio-17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstane, this is what PA had to say. And I quote: According to Vida, it possesses 11 times the anabolic potency of methyltest while being 0.9 as androgenic.
In the lab it breaks down under heat and certain chemical conditions to the steroid DMT (17a-Methyl-androstan-2-en-17b-ol), which has similar potency. Whether or not this happens in the body I don't know, but the possibility exists that this compound is simply a pro drug and it is DMT that is actually the physiological active species in the body.- End quote.

Let the chaos begin!!:twisted:



edit: CAUTION, For those of you who may not want to read through the 5 pages of chaos, confusion, possibilly roid rage induced fighting, pissing, moaning, generalized assumption and undirected rederic of this thread!! Please revert your eyes to page 5 were Senior es' poopypants has saved the world from imminent destruction and resolved the great debate of our modern time......for now..................
 
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Do you honestly believe that?
I don't personally know the man so I can't comment on his integrity. But these findings are very interesting to me and I would assume most in the bodybuilding world. Especially those who are ingesting these materials!
Do you know of any evidence to disprove this "theory"? Because really that's all it is.
 
PA is one of the few guys that I will listen to about certain compounds. But he has been all over EPI since it has come out... I just wish it will stop. If he can prove the claims that he makes, and another lab can comfirm - then I will open both eyes to it.

Schism said:
Do you honestly believe that?
I don't personally know the man so I can't comment on his integrity. But these findings are very interesting to me and I would assume most in the bodybuilding world. Especially those who are ingesting these materials!
Do you know of any evidence to disprove this "theory"? Because really that's all it is.
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I agree further evidence is need to solidify these findings but for now this is a very substantial discovery, seeing all the heart problems (risks) associated with DMT. I feel lots of people turn to other compounds such as super and epi for an alternative to Phera.

Note: I myself am totally unbiased, as I have both phera and epi clones and plan on running them in the future. However if this is true I sure as hell wouldn't want to run them back to back or together!:nono:
 
With all the controversy regarding Epi lately, I don't know who to believe anymore. I will say that IBE has lost all credibility with me and I will no longer buy any of their products. Its funny how Havoc hasn't had any drama except for the bogus claims IBE made about it. That's why RPN got my business the last time I made a purchase.
 
Hold on I want to clear this up.
IBE's Epistane product is in no way being singled out here!
I simply chose that name for my title because everyone seems to refer to all epi clones as epistane. This lab analysis would be true for any 2a,3a Epithio-17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstane containing product. Further more there is NO MENTION of which brand was tested just the compound it self. So this would apply for all brands of this compound.
 
he is not talking about just epistane, he is talking about the whole class of epithio compounds. i have this issue of MD, and it seems he is saying it is POSSIBLE that the 2 ene pheraplex compound is a major metabolite of havoc, epidrol, epistane, etc because it is easily derived from epithio outside the body in the right conditions, and that maybe this is where the bulk/some of the effects are derived from.

i know you guys don't like PA, and you have every right not to, but this article is not a knock on epistane or any other product, it's simply his take on how the epithios might work
 
warnerve said:
he is not talking about just epistane, he is talking about the whole class of epithio compounds. i have this issue of MD, and it seems he is saying it is POSSIBLE that the 2 ene pheraplex compound is a major metabolite of havoc, epidrol, epistane, etc because it is easily derived from epithio outside the body in the right conditions, and that maybe this is where the bulk/some of the effects are derived from.

i know you guys don't like PA, and you have every right not to, but this article is not a knock on epistane or any other product, it's simply his take on how the epithios might work
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Thank you bro. This is what I was trying to convey.
I must have posted a split second before you did. But your repped.
 
Schism said:
I agree further evidence is need to solidify these findings but for now this is a very substantial discovery, seeing all the heart problems (risks) associated with DMT. I feel lots of people turn to other compounds such as super and epi for an alternative to Phera.
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this is a very valid point, and rather worrisome. the thread about DMT heart problems led me to decide i am not running it again, even though i had great results/low noticeable sides and the clones are cheap nowadays.
 
warnerve said:
this is a very valid point, and rather worrisome. the thread about DMT heart problems led me to decide i am not running it again, even though i had great results/low noticeable sides and the clones are cheap nowadays.
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Tell me about it brother. I doubt I will ever run my two bottles of P-plex.
I bought them before all of this came to light. Which sucks!! I went with phera as a safer alternative to Super, go figure!
Then I bought two bottles of epidrol as a safer alternative to the phera and now it seems it might possibly have the same neggative impacting effects as fcukin phera (if indeed this is true) AAAHHH!!!:whiner:
 
The_Reverend said:
With all the controversy regarding Epi lately, I don't know who to believe anymore. I will say that IBE has lost all credibility with me and I will no longer buy any of their products. Its funny how Havoc hasn't had any drama except for the bogus claims IBE made about it. That's why RPN got my business the last time I made a purchase.
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Wait - can you explain to me why you've lost credibility with IBE?

Because someone posted something in a forum???

Have you tried Epistane?

Please do before making a determination that IBE is worthless. It's be far the best PH I've taken (includes Hemoguno and another Epi-clone - not Havoc).
 
warnerve said:
he is not talking about just epistane, he is talking about the whole class of epithio compounds. i have this issue of MD, and it seems he is saying it is POSSIBLE that the 2 ene pheraplex compound is a major metabolite of havoc, epidrol, epistane, etc because it is easily derived from epithio outside the body in the right conditions, and that maybe this is where the bulk/some of the effects are derived from.

i know you guys don't like PA, and you have every right not to, but this article is not a knock on epistane or any other product, it's simply his take on how the epithios might work
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Outside the body is one thing.
Before we all run around screaming "cats and dogs living together! mass hysteria!" let's get some data inside the human body.
That's what counts.
 
Fcuk, I wish PA would show up and shed some light on this topic in person.
No one's running around and screaming and poopin in their pants just yet. Just think of this as a heads up for future debates.
 
Maybe the bottle PA tested was one of the 'mystery/non-epi' batches from IBE? I don't see how that'd be possible otherwise since P-plex is DMT/Madol and 2a,3a Epithio-17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstane is metylated Epitiostanol. But I did find this post in another thread:

"Nah, I don't wanna get THAT going again. I don't care anymore. If they work, they work, if they don't, they don't. But, the point I was making is that at lease one version of methylepitiostanol is coming up with a M+ like DMT's, and if the sulfur leaves in the injection port (as it appears it would) that would leave DMT's and you'd get DMT's fragmentation pattern which would give some lawyers a hard-on. LOL. It'd be much easier to convict then to pay to have someone prove that it starts off as a different compound and loses the thioepoxide turning it into an scheduled substance. But, I'm sure keeping the bottle around + expert chemist testimony would clear things up..."
 
Schism said:
Fcuk, I wish PA would show up and shed some light on this topic in person.
No one's running around and screaming and poopin in their pants just yet. Just think of this as a heads up for future debates.
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People are talking about never using an Epi clone due to this perception.

People are crapping on themselves.
 
Ziquor said:
Maybe the bottle PA tested was one of the 'mystery/non-epi' batches from IBE? I don't see how that'd be possible otherwise since P-plex is DMT/Madol and 2a,3a Epithio-17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstane is metylated Epitiostanol. But I did find this post in another thread:

"Nah, I don't wanna get THAT going again. I don't care anymore. If they work, they work, if they don't, they don't. But, the point I was making is that at lease one version of methylepitiostanol is coming up with a M+ like DMT's, and if the sulfur leaves in the injection port (as it appears it would) that would leave DMT's and you'd get DMT's fragmentation pattern which would give some lawyers a hard-on. LOL. It'd be much easier to convict then to pay to have someone prove that it starts off as a different compound and loses the thioepoxide turning it into an scheduled substance. But, I'm sure keeping the bottle around + expert chemist testimony would clear things up..."
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Dr.D? Are you there? Help us!
 
Ziquor said:
Maybe the bottle PA tested was one of the 'mystery/non-epi' batches from IBE? I don't see how that'd be possible otherwise since P-plex is DMT/Madol and 2a,3a Epithio-17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstane is metylated Epitiostanol. But I did find this post in another thread:

"Nah, I don't wanna get THAT going again. I don't care anymore. If they work, they work, if they don't, they don't. But, the point I was making is that at lease one version of methylepitiostanol is coming up with a M+ like DMT's, and if the sulfur leaves in the injection port (as it appears it would) that would leave DMT's and you'd get DMT's fragmentation pattern which would give some lawyers a hard-on. LOL. It'd be much easier to convict then to pay to have someone prove that it starts off as a different compound and loses the thioepoxide turning it into an scheduled substance. But, I'm sure keeping the bottle around + expert chemist testimony would clear things up..."
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That's all lab stuff.
What the thioepoxide does in the body is the question - how it metabolizes.

He's talking about figuring out what the molecule is. He says when the sulfur group is stripped off due to the temperature of the GC that one brand has DMT then left over.

This doesn't say what happens in the body.
 
IF, IF (note the "IF") epi converted to DMT in the body, wouldnt DMT show up on some drug tests? im assuming it doesnt but dont really have any idea. could that be any sort of indicator?
 
Well considering the fact that ive run them both i dont really forsee how this could be possible. I get a completely different effect from both compounds. Just my opinion though.
 
jmh80 said:
Outside the body is one thing.
Before we all run around screaming "cats and dogs living together! mass hysteria!" let's get some data inside the human body.
That's what counts.
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my knowledge of this is extremely limited. i was just explaining what PA seemed to be saying.
 
3clipseGT said:
Well considering the fact that ive run them both i dont really forsee how this could be possible. I get a completely different effect from both compounds. Just my opinion though.
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That's really the only thing we can go on at this point.

I've taken now 2 Epi clones and Epi. I've not taken Phera or Ergo-max though. Else - I'd offer my take.
 
jmh80 said:
That's really the only thing we can go on at this point.

I've taken now 2 Epi clones and Epi. I've not taken Phera or Ergo-max though. Else - I'd offer my take.
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What effects did you get from which product?


CROWLER
 
All right glad to see some people showing up.
Thanks for the input Ziquor, I knew there was some other posts floating around about this somewhere. I also heard about a contaminated or misslabeled epithio product being tested a while back and them finding DMT in it.
Now I wonder if this stems from that product, or lab testing of the actual compound itself ie. the pure form of the 2a,3a,epithio-17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstane?????:blink:
 
slow-mun said:
Epithio's are synthesized from DMT. That's what PA meant.
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No, I think you misread it brother.
In this article he is clearly talking about it breaking down into DMT in the lab under heat and other chemical influences. But whether or not it does so in the human body he is not sure of. That is the topic of debate here.
:trout:
 
Schism said:
No, I think you misread it brother.
In this article he is clearly talking about it breaking down into DMT in the lab under heat and other chemical influences. But whether or not it does so in the human body he is not sure of. That is the topic of debate here.
:trout:
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No....., I'm telling you that Epithio's are synthesized from DMT. The topic here seems to be lackluster IMHO.
 
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Ok....
1st- PA has had another compound tested and i forget which on, and the company chose not to allow him to release the results and he would not show the results to the owner(i think it was) becasue he would not pay him for whatever. So thi is not the first time he has tested a compound at random. I say this in his defense of "attacking" a company and/or compound.

2- He is banned fomr this board. Not sure why, just is. He has his own thread on another board that is a Q&A thread. Not meant for arguements. He is very quick with his responses and keeps them fairly simple, unless you ask for more detail. I check that thread regularly.

3- He CLEARLY states in his article in MD, which i have this issue, and in the quote in the original post, that he tested the compound and that it is STRICTLY in lab conditions and makes no claim to the same action in the body.

I thin kyou need to take it as more he experimented with a compound, as he did with many for the MD article, and this was some of the result for this one.

I know in the past i htink Epistane by IBE was found to have some Tren in it or the prescuor, if im not mistaken.

I think PA is a very reputable guy and peopel get it in their head about these compunds from whatever company and tend to get fussy when people dont like the idea expressed.

I have not used Epistane. I want to. But doubt i will cause i feel there is alot of hype. from the Gyno reduction to some of the best gains for any PH.

I think alot has to do with when people go on they tend to diet alot better, train better, etc. I am not saying they dont work, just need to take it for what its worht sometimes.
 
I think Dr.D knows more about the correalation between Epi & DMT. I've seen posts where he says he doesn't "believe" it could be converted to DMT, however he's far from certain according to the posts I seen. I think most of the people who've been banned from here is because they haven't posted for a long time frame. As far as this thread being 'lackluster' is quite insane. Some compounds scientists don't even figure how they completely work until many years after they're realeased. Tramadol has been out for over 12 years & even the best scientists don't fully understand how it works & what it converts to exactly in the body after hepatic pass. If Epi does convert to DMT which is proven in case after case to enlarge the heart, cause left ventricular hypertrophy, & thickening of the heart walls - which many times is irreversable, this topic is only lackluster if you care less whether you die at 35 or 80.
 
Schism said:
Whether or not this happens in the body I don't know, but the possibility exists that this compound is simply a pro drug and it is DMT that is actually the physiological active species in the body.- End quote.[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]
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PA is most definitely saying it's a possibility that this will convert to dmt in the body. i'm not saying it's true, he's not saying it's true, just that it's a possibility to consider/look into whether he is popular or not, it's silly to just disregard it when he says something about this subject
 
MentalTwitch said:
Ok....
1st- PA has had another compound tested and i forget which on, and the company chose not to allow him to release the results and he would not show the results to the owner(i think it was) becasue he would not pay him for whatever. So thi is not the first time he has tested a compound at random. I say this in his defense of "attacking" a company and/or compound.

2- He is banned fomr this board. Not sure why, just is. He has his own thread on another board that is a Q&A thread. Not meant for arguements. He is very quick with his responses and keeps them fairly simple, unless you ask for more detail. I check that thread regularly.

3- He CLEARLY states in his article in MD, which i have this issue, and in the quote in the original post, that he tested the compound and that it is STRICTLY in lab conditions and makes no claim to the same action in the body.

I thin kyou need to take it as more he experimented with a compound, as he did with many for the MD article, and this was some of the result for this one.

I know in the past i htink Epistane by IBE was found to have some Tren in it or the prescuor, if im not mistaken.

I think PA is a very reputable guy and peopel get it in their head about these compunds from whatever company and tend to get fussy when people dont like the idea expressed.

I have not used Epistane. I want to. But doubt i will cause i feel there is alot of hype. from the Gyno reduction to some of the best gains for any PH.

I think alot has to do with when people go on they tend to diet alot better, train better, etc. I am not saying they dont work, just need to take it for what its worht sometimes.
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Well you obviousl support PA being one who frequents his own threads as you mentioned, but please, dont let this cloud your judgment of this situation.

PA is a VERY smart guy and a fairly good chemist but a srtand up person and one with the intention of good in his heart he is not. He has continuosly attacked Epi (this is the ecact same epi tests you refer to in the start of our post, which you said you cant remember, and obviously dnt remember the situation well either) In that first debacle he was saying Epi wasnt even Epi the compound it claimed to be, next it was that its contaminated with Tren and now that it contains or turns into DMT all in an effort to shine a bad lilght on the very successful compound he can obviously not produce himself due to court orders and would rather tear down instead. He's able to do these things casue he is able to pull slight correlations to these other compounds but you notice its always very open ended when it comes down to the facts, but he will push the point non the less and others just eat it up running around repeating incorrectly what he has vaguely stated as pure fact and then this happens. people such as yourself who have heard nothing but good personal reviews and would like to actually try it yourself will not due to underlying worries or thinking that with all the crap PA is saying the great effects others experience just cant be true.

So tell me if its only cause of better diet and training that people are making these gains then the same can be said for every compund used and cycled, NO? In all honesty I and many others that have a solid foundation and work their ass off 24/7 regardless of current supplementation have made above normal possible placebo gains with this so this point of yours is really quite inaccurate.

you now have gone so far as to say hes banned here for no good reason and also that he made certain statements that it only is possible in lab conditions when the first post states specifically he thinks its very probable this happens in the body as well.... although he still has absolutely no proof to say that. He doesnt even correlate how he thinks this, with his lab tests, by stating he used "thus and such" enzyme to make this happen and "thus and such" enzyme is also found in the liver or whatever... just he thinks so and thats enough to make it possible. The Issue of his ban though is an issue that youd have to take up with the mods as they make the decision whos banned and for what reason... BUT last time i checked (spoke with him here last summer) PA was unbanned here but the reason he was banned initially is cause of the way he approaches certain things, ususally very insulting/condescending when told hes wrong and the fact that he had problems with the board admin itself casue he cant control himself.... regardless of his knowledge this man tends to lack character when backed into a corner or even slightly nuged towards one but many regard him a hero cause he readily takes to giving newbs advice since all they do is listen and dont question... this man is an egomaniac.

either way I could care less what he thinks Epi is, so far hes only made it sound better to me since Tren is av ery desireable compound (although impossible to be effective orally at these doses so its obviously not anything close to it) and phera is my absolute altime favorite compound. I still doubt the second as well since I have run both phera and Epi seerate and although they ahve similarities overall they are both very different in how they effect the body one being very wet one very dry. epi is very mild while phera is a VERY noticable compund all around, in gains and the fact you "feel" it. now they are both good in strength as well and have similar AA ratios but thats the extent of their similarities IMO.

well all in all I hope you dont give up on Epi or any of the epithio products just yet and give one a try, preferably Epistane or Havoc since they have the most feedback and can be considered the most reliable since they were the first ones released. you will not be dissapointed.... but if you dont make gains can I just say its casue your diet and training are shiz even though you noramlly make good gains on other cycles and products you run with your diet and routine??? ( you see the flaw in this logic?) I know if they are in check you will def have a similar exp to everyone else and also that you should be gaining when your off too......
 
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3clipseGT said:
Well considering the fact that ive run them both i dont really forsee how this could be possible. I get a completely different effect from both compounds. Just my opinion though.
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as have i....they were both different in effects.

Im also sick of people saying Pheraplex/DMT makes your heart this n that, and i wont run it because of that.....blah blah blah....all anabolic steroids can enlarge the heart! So give it a rest! please. DMT just happens to be one that has published scientific evidence and also one that was actually tested specifically for that study.
 
slow-mun said:
No....., I'm telling you that Epithio's are synthesized from DMT. The topic here seems to be lackluster IMHO.
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:wtf:
Yes....I know that. As dose everyone here Smart@ss!! The topic of this thread regardless of your opinion is whether...or...not epithios convert or are broken down into DMT in human body. I hope that is easy enough to under stand???
 
Well, there is only one way to find out... I'm not sure if we will ever get an answer of absulote on this matter.

Schism said:
:wtf:
Yes....I know that. As dose everyone here Smart@ss!! The topic of this thread regardless of your opinion is whether...or...not epithios convert or are broken down into DMT in human body. I hope that is easy enough to under stand???
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pistonpump said:
as have i....they were both different in effects.

Im also sick of people saying Pheraplex/DMT makes your heart this n that, and i wont run it because of that.....blah blah blah....all anabolic steroids can enlarge the heart! So give it a rest! please. DMT just happens to be one that has published scientific evidence and also one that was actually tested specifically for that study.
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In the single study I've read DMT seem to cause this effect significantly more than others. And since it's sold over the counter, I think it is of more interest to novice users who are not aware in the first place of exactly what they're ingesting. But yes, steroids DO cause heart as well as organ enlargement, or hypertrophy.
 
DMT is detectable when taking a steroid test. It tests positive as methyltest. Have any of you been tested while on or shortly after an epithio cycle?
 
Schism said:
:wtf:
Yes....I know that. As dose everyone here Smart@ss!! The topic of this thread regardless of your opinion is whether...or...not epithios convert or are broken down into DMT in human body. I hope that is easy enough to under stand???
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Actually, I kind of doubt that you did, since it was never once mentioned before I stated as much. You started this thread to start drama. Intelligent discussion does not begin with "Let the chaos begin." I don't think its very hard for a compound to revert back into the substance that it was derived from in a lab. setting, especially when being broken down chemically. This thread has done nothing but fuel unintelligent speculation. If reps were what you were after by starting it, I hope you at least got a point or two.
 
Schism said:
In the single study I've read DMT seem to cause this effect significantly more than others. And since it's sold over the counter, I think it is of more interest to novice users who are not aware in the first place of exactly what they're ingesting. But yes, steroids DO cause heart as well as organ enlargement, or hypertrophy.
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well put. I guess for the majority of users who are uneducated on the risks of using steroids, esp OTC ones that they most likely dont even know are steroids....its good to tell them. Im just getting tired of hearing it every other thread.

I agree with what someone else said here, i will never use Epistane and ive said that before because whether or not this or that is true about what has been said about the product, Im gonna just stay away because its not worth it to find out really. Im sorry but IBE just has a terrible rep now, honestly.
 
slow-mun said:
Actually, I kind of doubt that you did, since it was never once mentioned before I stated as much. You started this thread to start drama. Intelligent discussion does not begin with "Let the chaos begin." I don't think its very hard for a compound to revert back into the substance that it was derived from in a lab. setting, especially when being broken down chemically. This thread has done nothing but fuel unintelligent speculation. If reps were what you were after by starting it, I hope you at least got a point or two.
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Hahha... Thank you for your much needed and all confusion clearing opinion once again. The only person I've had any drama on this thread with has been your all know @ss.
So thank you for that, are you going to repp me too??? lol
 
Schism said:
Hahha... Thank you for your much needed and all confusion clearing opinion once again. The only person I've had any drama on this thread with has been your all know @ss.
So thank you for that, are you going to repp me too??? lol
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I only rep people who offer something signicant to the board with their posts. The day I rep someone for starting multiple threads about Epistane conspiracies and Designer Steroids being banned, then you can expect some from me. In the mean time you can get off my d!ck.
 
Id have to agree to some degree. The tone of most of these threads are negative and forboding, and ususally only fuel the rampant misinformed to come in and continue to share the propaganda that is forced on them on other forums.

Id just rather that these type of discussion stay over there (or are presented in a much different light) especially given the originator of this very article this topic was based on. If I want his opinion on anything I will go ask it of him and Im sure he'll give me an earfull, wich I'll then have to weed out what is his educated speculation (read what he wants people to think) from the actual concrete facts and compare that to the opinion and factual findings of other respected Gurus.

I am still sorry that so many wont even give this compound a shot even though they are willing to ingest a much more harmful superdrol and its many uncertified clones but will write this off regardless of all the good side free results and few cases of blood that came back perfect.
 
stxnas said:
DMT is detectable when taking a steroid test. It tests positive as methyltest. Have any of you been tested while on or shortly after an epithio cycle?
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are you sure? i was under the impression DMT was used or was going to be used to beat testing at one point, although they probably test for it now
 
Schism said:
I agree further evidence is need to solidify these findings but for now this is a very substantial discovery, seeing all the heart problems (risks) associated with DMT. I feel lots of people turn to other compounds such as super and epi for an alternative to Phera.
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DMT is actually much safer than both of those compounds. Yes, left ventrical hypertrophy has been linked to DMT, but pretty much every steroid causes this and so does regular old weight lifting.
 
slow-mun said:
I only rep people who offer something significant to the board with their posts. The day I rep someone for starting multiple threads about Epistane conspiracies and Designer Steroids being banned, then you can expect some from me. In the mean time you can get off my d!ck.
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If you don't like my thread than get your sh!t talkin ass out of it tough guy!!
If this is the way you chose to represent your company, than I'm sure there are many other threads that could use your infinite wisdom and all knowing responses to something that doesnt anger you.
I did not start this thread to badmouth any epi-type products. I started it to get more insight into an article I read that merly peaked my interest, from people with more knowledge than myself. And to discuss the topic with other fellow body builders who (like myself) may have been hearing about this for the first time.
On the other hand it seems that you came here trying to start some kind of pathetic E-fight with me over a topic you clearly do not agree with. I don't think you would want to say those things to me in real life!! You don't know me and I don't know you so watch your mouth! Or else I can e-mail you my home address and we could discuss this in person. But this is childish and I will no longer respond to your insulting post as it is making us both look unintelligent!
 
aspire210 said:
DMT is actually much safer than both of those compounds. Yes, left ventrical hypertrophy has been linked to DMT, but pretty much every steroid causes this and so does regular old weight lifting.
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Thanks for your responce. Out of curiosity what makes you say that DMT is safer than Super and Epi?
 
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