Guest viewing is limited

Eca stack at empty stomach?

Cardiac problems will surely arise

They have prescribed EC to millions in one of those Norwegian countries and sides are rather rare, many of the side effects are lowered blood pressure. You should have better cholesterol levels in the long run too, actually EC may be cardio protective.

Its actually extremely safe when used properly.
 
Yeah, ephedrine hits beta 2 a little...but unlike clen you can take ephedrine indefinitely and it works better with time 6+ months out. Clen almost stops working after 2 weeks with traditional dosing.

Ephedrine can be taken longer because it is both non specific and has a short half life. Its half life is a few hours. Clen's half life is around 40 hours
 
It's been in products I've used so not fair to say I've used it but I didn't like said products at all. Optimal dosing would be in a fasted state, it appears to have great synergy with EC due to increasing circulating NE.

Taking yohimbine with ephedrine is advised against...this is where it can start being detrimental to your health.
 
Some hormones which have been traditionally known as catabolic hormones are now being thought to also express an anti-catabolic effect specifically in muscle tissue, epinephrine (adrenaline) being one of them. Now while I know epinephrine and ephedrine aren't the same thing but aren't there a significant amount of similarities between the two in function and structure?

Do you think any of the below can be taken and spoiled to ephedrine as well?



Here we see it had an anti-proteolytic effect, and in fact suppressed catabolism rather than promoted it.



Here we see that catecholamines in general (i.e. noradrenaline/norepinephrine and adrenaline/epinephrine) greatly decreased the rate of muscle catabolism.

Again I do realize the epinephrine and ephedrine arent exactally the same there are a significent amount of similarties between the two (function and structure) so I wasnt sure if anything from the above could really be extrapolated and applied here or not but thought I would add this ;)

interesting, man i'd like to read those studies.
 
Was unaware higenamine had any action in those regards, there appears to be some positive support for it but I prefer to wait on these things also the thyroidal in it is something I don't want to deal with
Never said you had to take it. Its not for everyone. Just answered your question.

The term beta-agonist is used very loosely on the forums. So much goes into them. You can have beta agonists that bind more or less on b1, b2, b3, have different half lives, have agonistic and antagonistic affects on a1 and a1 adrenoceptors, increase norE or E release independent of its b-agonistic effects, etc.

So really, it is hard to compare any of them. But it is easiest to classify them into half life:

Long: Clenbuterol

Short: Ephedrine, Albuterol (Salbutamol), Methyl-synephrine, Higenamine
 
itzDodge said:
Was unaware higenamine had any action in those regards, there appears to be some positive support for it but I prefer to wait on these things also the thyroidal in it is something I don't want to deal with

You personally... But its non suppressive aaaand many people are willing to go much further then you and use exogenous thyroid drugs that cause suppression....

It does not detract from the fact that the aforementioned stack is more effective then the eca stack for this very reason.
 
Found some info that explains why not to use yohimbine with ephedrine.

Lyle McDonald said:
What about yohimbe? Yohimbe approaches fat mobilization from the opposite end. It is an alpha-antagonist (meaning that it blocks the effects of the alpha receptors). Since alpha receptors inhibit fat breakdown, and yohimbe inhibits alpha receptors, the end result is that yohimbe increases fat breakdown (got that, it’s basically a double negative, inhibiting an inhibitor means that you get an increase). One observation in the research is that women’s lower bodyfat has much higher levels of alpha receptors than it does beta receptors. This is probably a big part of why a lot of women will get very lean in their upper bodies but still carry a lot of fat on their legs. Women probably have more to gain from using yohimbe than men do. The standard dose of yohimbe is 8-24 mg per day but the problem is that most yohimbe products are poorly standardized and there’s no way to know how much of the active ingredient is present. The problem is that yohimbe plus the ECA stack *can* be relatively more dangerous than either one used separately. Here’s why. Recall from above that the beta receptors are analogous to the accelerator on your car while alpha receptors are kind of like the brakes. Taking ECA is like stomping on the accelerator, taking yohimbe is like taking your foot off the brake. Meaning that ECA + yohimbe will have an overall greater effect on metabolism than either one taken alone. This is a good thing from the standpoint of fat loss since you are both stimulating fat breakdown and inhibiting the inhibition of fat breakdown. But the heart also has both alpha and beta receptors. Stimulating beta receptors in the heart raises heart rate. So does inhibiting the alpha receptors. Doing both means that the heart rate and blood pressure response to ECA + yohimbe will be greater than with either one taken alone. For some people this is a non-issue. Others report a racing heart rate and vastly increased blood pressure when they take ECA + yohimbe and there is no way to know in advance if you’ll be susceptible or not. If you do choose to experiment with both, at least show some common sense and monitor your heart rate and blood pressure response. Normal heart rate for most individuals is 60-80 beats per minute and a resting heart rate over 100 is considered dangerous. Normal blood pressure is about 120/80 and anything over 140/100 should be a major danger sign. Blood pressure cuffs are cheap (or use the free ones at the grocery store). A trip to the emergency room is most definitely not cheap. This isn’t mean to be a scare tactic. Just be smart about what you put into your body and do the most you can do avoid having any problems.

Read more from this Think Muscle article at Invalid Link Removed
 
Taking yohimbine with ephedrine is advised against...this is where it can start being detrimental to your health.

With alpha y it is not as much an issue. I think you misunderstood my quoted post above, I was saying problem arise when combining 1,3 D and ephedrine. I don't know of any instances where EC lowered blood pressure though as both are pressors and should result in a large increase from the norm. Especially in doses used by people looking to achieve weight loss. It may assist obese individuals over time by improving their numbers but short term its most definitely going to raise blood pressure.
 
With alpha y it is not as much an issue. I think you misunderstood my quoted post above, I was saying problem arise when combining 1,3 D and ephedrine. I don't know of any instances where EC lowered blood pressure though as both are pressors and should result in a large increase from the norm. Especially in doses used by people looking to achieve weight loss. It may assist obese individuals over time by improving their numbers but short term its most definitely going to raise blood pressure.

Lowered blood pressure from EC was medically documented in Norwegian countries. There were some 1-2 million+ prescriptions of EC with less than 100 users reported side effects which many of them had lowered blood pressure issues.
 
Comparison of an ephedrine/caffeine combination and dexfenfluramine in the treatment of obesity. A double-blind multi-centre trial in general practice.

Click link in below quote for study...Users had drop in blood pressure, and also after the first month initial other sides dissipate.

Invalid Link Removed"
Invalid Link Removed
 
Just to share my opinion muscle loss will be much more dependent on how much of a calorie deficit the person is in. Not what time they do cardio and take ECA. I always take mine on an empty stomach. 45-60 mins away from food on either end.

not counting ergogenic aids such as ephedrine, clen, w/e the energy system primarily being used is going to depend on exercise intensity & secondly on duration.

40-60% of vo2 max will generally be the area to promote beta oxidation as a primary energy system.

i'd have to look more at those studies on the adrenal hormones, but im still going to go ahead an say w/e anti catabolic effect it has, is probably minimal.

argh, i cant argue, im going to have to research more on this.
 
Ephedrine is safer that what I even mentioned above...9.6 million prescription, 2 years and only 86 adverse reactions.

Invalid Link Removed
"That's right, when the media (and the FDA) portray thermogenic supplements as untested and dangerous, it is an outright lie. In fact, in Denmark, ephedrine and caffeine (EC) is "licensed as a prescription drug" (1) and doctors prescribed 9.6 million daily doses over a two year period (14). Ironically, its safety record is one of the reasons why it is such a popular obesity medication.

As we have discussed, if you start the stack at the full dose, some people experience transitory stimulation-related side effects (hand tremor, insomnia, etc.) And even this can be largely avoided if you start with a very low dose. The safety data from Denmark -- after 9.6 million doses -- shows nothing worse than these minor side effects!"

Breum et al. wrote about the large "double-blind multi-centre trial in general practice" (Invalid Link Removed) in the "International Journal of Obesity and Related Metabolic Disorders." Here is what they had to say about ephedrine and caffeine (EC):
"During the last two years defined doses daily more than 9.6 million of the EC combination have been used in Denmark, but only 86 adverse drug reactions have been reported to the health authorities, of which none were cases of gastrointestinal bleeding or other kinds of haemorrhagic episodes . . . Both diastolic and systolic BP declined during treatment with both drugs" (Invalid Link Removed).

 
Comparison of an ephedrine/caffeine combination and dexfenfluramine in the treatment of obesity. A double-blind multi-centre trial in general practice.

Click link in below quote for study...Users had drop in blood pressure, and also after the first month initial other sides dissipate.

Invalid Link Removed"
Invalid Link Removed

Like I said over time their numbers improved but dosing ephedrine and caffeine will elevate blood pressure while it is in your system.
 
Like I said over time their numbers improved but dosing ephedrine and caffeine will elevate blood pressure while it is in your system.

If in the study they documented both systolic and diastolic blood pressures reduced during treatments, and your stating it will elevate blood pressure, who do you think Im going to believe? Or is there some terminology Im not understanding here. Can you kindly clarify? If you mean after long term use do you have study documentation to provide this as factual?

Edit: Or you meant during EC's half life...we need to see if in the study they took BP while on a dose?
 
Just some more safety info

A. EPHEDRA PLUS HERBAL CAFFEINE IS SAFE AND EFFECTIVE LONG TERM IN MULTIPLE STUDES PER ST. LUKE'S HOSPITAL, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY AND A FORMER PROFESSOR/DR. FROM A PLACE CALLED "HARVARD", BETH ISRAEL'S MEDICAL CENTER.

Harvard/Columbia Long-Term Safety And Efficacy Trial Study Overview

On April 25, 2002, the International Journal of Obesity published the results of “the first reported long-term, clinical trial of a herbal preparation containing ephedrine alkaloids and caffeine in combination.” The trial was a prospective, two-arm, six-month, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, clinical safety and efficacy trial conducted at two sites. The trial was conducted by a team of researchers, including Dr. Carol Boozer, the director of the New York Obesity Research Center, at St. Luke’s-Roosevelt Hospital and Columbia University, and Dr. Patricia Daly, formerly a professor at Beth Israel Medical Center, at Harvard Medical School1.

SUMMARY

Safety: The researchers concluded that “compared with placebo, the tested product produced no adverse events and minimal side effects that are consistent with the known mechanisms of action of ephedrine and caffeine.” In fact, the number of research subjects removed from the study for potential treatment-related adverse events were similar in the active and placebo groups (collectively the “treatment groups”). The researchers noted that there “were no significant differences between treatment groups in self-reported chest pain, palpitations, blurred vision, headache, nausea or irritability at any time point.”

Benefits: The researchers concluded that “the present study demonstrated significant beneficial effects on body weight, body fat and blood lipids of a herbal Ma Huang/Kola nut mixture (90/192 mg/day ephedrine alkaloids/caffeine) in overweight men and women who were otherwise healthy. Moreover, the herbal combination promoted significantly greater reductions in waist and hip circumference in overweight subjects compared with placebo-treated subjects.

Overall: The researchers concluded that “herbal ephedra/caffeine (90/192 mg/day) promoted body weight and body fat rejection and improved blood lipids without significant adverse events.”

Study Protocol ‚ The prospective, two-arm, six-month, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial involved 167 overweight subjects (84 subjects assigned to the placebo group and 83 subjects assigned to the ephedra/caffeine alkaloid group). For 6 months, the subjects were given either a placebo or 90 mg of ephedrine alkaloids, from herbal ephedra, and 192 mg of caffeine alkaloids, from Kola nut, per day in 3 divided doses, as well as diet and exercise counseling. Specifically, at randomization, the subjects were counseled to eat normally (but limit intake of dietary fat to 30% of calories) and to exercise moderately (e.g. walk 30 minutes per day, three times a week). Baseline and follow-up evaluations of the subjects included 24-hour blood pressure and cardiac Holter monitoring, as well as EKGs, routine laboratory tests, and urine samples.

Study Observations ‚ The treated group had significantly greater reductions in body weight, body fat, and waist and hip circumference than the placebo group. For example, subjects in the treated group lost an average of 11.7 pounds (5.3 kg) during the study, compared to an average of 5.7 pounds (2.6 kg) in the placebo group. The greater weight loss in the treated group was accompanied by improved cholesterol and blood glucose levels. The researchers observed small increases in heart rate and blood pressure variables in the treated group, without any increases in heart irregularities such as cardiac arrhythmias.

Side-Effects ‚ The researchers concluded that “compared with placebo, the tested product produced no adverse events and minimal side effects that are consistent with the known mechanisms of action of ephedrine and caffeine.” No subject in the study suffered from a serious adverse event, and the side-effects in both groups were transient and mild. The researchers noted that “the symptoms that subjects reported to be most consistently increased by the herbal vs the placebo treatment were dry mouth, heartburn and insomnia.”

Withdrawals ‚ More subjects withdrew from the placebo group than the treatment group. Specifically, of the 80 subjects who withdrew from the study, 37 were from the treated group and 43 were from the placebo group. More than 50% of the withdrawals in both groups were not side-effect related. Moreover, the number of subjects removed from the study for a potential treatment-related side-effect was almost identical in the treatment and placebo groups. The researchers noted that “there were no significant differences between treatment groups in self-reported chest pain, palpitations, blurred vision, headache, nausea or irritability at any time point.”

Impact of Clinical Research on Adverse Event Reports (“AERs”) ‚ As noted by the researchers, the absence of adverse effects in this study, and two previous studies on herbal ephedra/caffeine alkaloids, leads one to question how such results can be reconciled with the AERs that have been collected by the Food and Drug Administration (“FDA”). Although possible explanations vary, the researchers stated: “With millions of Americans consuming ephedra containing products, it is obvious that some number of adverse events is expected each year regardless of consumption of these products. The real question is not whether adverse events occur in a population undergoing treatment, but whether these occur at a rate that is higher than that of a matched, untreated group. This is impossible to determine from adverse event reports alone. The randomized, placebo-controlled trial allows evaluation of cause and effect relationships vs coincidental events.”

Conclusion ‚ The researchers stated the following: “Evidence from three completed placebo-controlled clinical trials of herbal ephedra/caffeine is consistent with that from a large number of studies with synthetic ephedrine/caffeine. In total, these suggest that herbal ephedra/caffeine herbal supplements, when used as directed by healthy overweight men and women in combination with healthy diet and exercise habits,may be beneficial for weight reduction without significantly increased risk of adverse events. The current widespread usage of herbal products and the increasing incidence of obesity warrant additional clinical trials to confirm and extend these results*.”

*Read: "Send us more of your federal/private grant money. We need to keep the gravy train going..."
 
If in the study they documented both systolic and diastolic blood pressures reduced during treatments, and your stating it will elevate blood pressure, who do you think Im going to believe? Or is there some terminology Im not understanding here. Can you kindly clarify? If you mean after long term use do you have study documentation to provide this as factual?

Edit: Or you meant during EC's half life...we need to see if in the study they took BP while on a dose?

I'm referring to the half life, the few hours after you dose EC your blood pressure will most certainly be elevated. However, over time the rapid weight loss obese individuals would experience would result in lower blood pressure levels. If they tested blood pressure after doses and it was lower within the few hours right after a dose then my mind is blown. Some act of wizardry is occurring in Norwegians if that is the case

EC is very safe though when dosed responsibly, but individuals should still pay attention to BP/HR.
 
Objective: Herbal weight loss and athletic performance–enhancing supplements that contain ephedrine and caffeine have been associated with serious adverse health events. We sought to determine whether ephedrine and caffeine have clinically significant pharmacologic interactions that explain these toxicities.


Methods: Sixteen healthy adults ingested 25 mg ephedrine, 200 mg caffeine, or both drugs in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled crossover study. Plasma and urine samples were collected over a 24-hour period and analyzed by liquid chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry for ephedrine and caffeine concentrations. Heart rate, blood pressure, and subjective responses were recorded. Serum hormonal and metabolic markers were serially measured during a 3-hour fasting period.


Results: Ephedrine plus caffeine increased systolic blood pressure (peak difference, 11.7 9.4 mm Hg; compared with placebo, P = .0005) and heart rate (peak difference, 5.9 8.8 beats/min; compared with placebo, P = .001) and raised fasting glucose, insulin, free fatty acid, and lactate concentrations. Ephedrine alone increased heart rate and glucose and insulin concentrations but did not affect systolic blood pressure. Caffeine increased systolic blood pressure and plasma free fatty acid and urinary epinephrine concentrations but did not increase heart rate. Compared with ephedrine, caffeine produced more subjective stimulant effects. Clinically significant pharmacokinetic interactions between ephedrine and caffeine were not observed. Women taking oral contraceptives had prolonged caffeine elimination (mean elimination half-life, 9.7 hours versus 5.0 hours in men; P = .05), but sex differences in pharmacodynamic responses were not seen.


Conclusions: The individual effects of ephedrine and caffeine were modest, but the drugs in combination produced significant cardiovascular, metabolic, and hormonal responses. These enhanced effects appear to be a result of pharmacodynamic rather than pharmacokinetic interactions.
 
You can run a Lyle McDonalds stubborn bodyfat protocol and dose the EC 4 hours apart from the yohimbine doses.



Certainly...I speak from reading Lyle McDonalds Stubborn Body-fat Solution book, so there is more to it that I stated especially in regards to diet quality/quantity. Its certainly not for everyone either.

How is that book? I have thought about buying it for some time now and just never have gotten around to it
 
JudoJosh said:
How is that book? I have thought about buying it for some time now and just never have gotten around to it

Yea same here. Lyle has some good books and stuff but I just really think he's not a very nice guy....
 
How is that book? I have thought about buying it for some time now and just never have gotten around to it

All his books are good...I still study them I havent read them all back to back but you can start by checking out his website for some free golden information. bodyrecomposition.com

He uses scientific reference, and mentions when he is going by anecdotal evidence.

Objective: Herbal weight loss and athletic performance–enhancing supplements that contain ephedrine and caffeine have been associated with serious adverse health events. We sought to determine whether ephedrine and caffeine have clinically significant pharmacologic interactions that explain these toxicities.


Methods: Sixteen healthy adults ingested 25 mg ephedrine, 200 mg caffeine, or both drugs in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled crossover study. Plasma and urine samples were collected over a 24-hour period and analyzed by liquid chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry for ephedrine and caffeine concentrations. Heart rate, blood pressure, and subjective responses were recorded. Serum hormonal and metabolic markers were serially measured during a 3-hour fasting period.

The only issue with this is that this is after initial use. After a month or more this effect should minimize or subside...but this may vary user to user of course. Im not making the official claim here, but I know in one of the studies I posted most who showed high bp signs has the issues elevated after a month of use...so I know at least your body will adjust to some point and rather quickly. Actually, if users are having their blood pressure lowered after months of use there is room for play in there too.
 
Yea same here. Lyle has some good books and stuff but I just really think he's not a very nice guy....

lol...you must have went to his "mean" forum.

Look...we all here online, people can act nice but they can be the most dirtiest scumbags on the planet. Then we can have people who act a bit immature, or rude, a little egotistical, etc...but they may be some of the friendliest, caring, compassionate people on earth.

What Im saying is we dont know...but when it comes to diet and nutrition we should primarily look at content, not peoples character (unless they are know murderers or rapists of course.)
 
All his books are good...I still study them I havent read them all back to back but you can start by checking out his website for some free golden information. bodyrecomposition.com

He uses scientific reference, and mentions when he is going by anecdotal evidence.



The only issue with this is that this is after initial use. After a month or more this effect should minimize or subside...but this may vary user to user of course. Im not making the official claim here, but I know in one of the studies I posted most who showed high bp signs has the issues elevated after a month of use...so I know at least your body will adjust to some point and rather quickly. Actually, if users are having their blood pressure lowered after months of use there is room for play in there too.

Looks like its the caffeine giving the BP raise in the dosing frame, not the ephedrine. Ephedrine alone lowered BP
 
Ephedrine is safer that what I even mentioned above...9.6 million prescription, 2 years and only 86 adverse reactions.

Invalid Link Removed
"That's right, when the media (and the FDA) portray thermogenic supplements as untested and dangerous, it is an outright lie. In fact, in Denmark, ephedrine and caffeine (EC) is "licensed as a prescription drug" (1) and doctors prescribed 9.6 million daily doses over a two year period (14). Ironically, its safety record is one of the reasons why it is such a popular obesity medication.

As we have discussed, if you start the stack at the full dose, some people experience transitory stimulation-related side effects (hand tremor, insomnia, etc.) And even this can be largely avoided if you start with a very low dose. The safety data from Denmark -- after 9.6 million doses -- shows nothing worse than these minor side effects!"

Breum et al. wrote about the large "double-blind multi-centre trial in general practice" (Invalid Link Removed) in the "International Journal of Obesity and Related Metabolic Disorders." Here is what they had to say about ephedrine and caffeine (EC):
"During the last two years defined doses daily more than 9.6 million of the EC combination have been used in Denmark, but only 86 adverse drug reactions have been reported to the health authorities, of which none were cases of gastrointestinal bleeding or other kinds of haemorrhagic episodes . . . Both diastolic and systolic BP declined during treatment with both drugs" (Invalid Link Removed).


Naturally something that works will not be allowed in the US, freaking brilliant FDA we have. Is that ephedrine HCL that is being used of the ephedra of old prior to it being banned?
 
Naturally something that works will not be allowed in the US, freaking brilliant FDA we have. Is that ephedrine HCL that is being used of the ephedra of old prior to it being banned?

Old school ephedra pre-ban in fat loss products what ephedra aka mahuang that was popular...not ephedrine. Ephedrine is an alkaloid of ephedra aka Mahuang. Ephedra has multiple alkaloids, has a better appetite suppressing effects, stronger stim effect, better stronger overall product but the sides are much stronger in my experience.

1R,2S norephedrine is another famous but not as popular ephedrine alkaloid with superior appetite suppressing effects compared to ephedrine with barely any stim content. NYC stack is the underground legend (Norephedrine, yohimine, caffeine)
 
Old school ephedra pre-ban in fat loss products what ephedra aka mahuang that was popular...not ephedrine. Ephedrine is an alkaloid of ephedra aka Mahuang. Ephedra has multiple alkaloids, has a better appetite suppressing effects, stronger stim effect, better stronger overall product but the sides are much stronger in my experience.

1R,2S norephedrine is another famous but not as popular ephedrine alkaloid with superior appetite suppressing effects compared to ephedrine with barely any stim content. NYC stack is the underground legend (Norephedrine, yohimine, caffeine)

I want to run that NYC stack, sounds pretty freaking awesome to me though I am sure you can't get the Norephedrine. What are the doses that were typically ran in the NYC stack of each?\

I stand corrected: Invalid Link Removed

Apparently you can get it in bulk but not sure the dose but 10g will last a long time I am sure.
 
Old school ephedra pre-ban in fat loss products what ephedra aka mahuang that was popular...not ephedrine. Ephedrine is an alkaloid of ephedra aka Mahuang. Ephedra has multiple alkaloids, has a better appetite suppressing effects, stronger stim effect, better stronger overall product but the sides are much stronger in my experience.

1R,2S norephedrine is another famous but not as popular ephedrine alkaloid with superior appetite suppressing effects compared to ephedrine with barely any stim content. NYC stack is the underground legend (Norephedrine, yohimine, caffeine)


Ephedrine is superior to ephedra.

...going on about how ephedra extract was better than ephedrine, here's why that's the furthest thing from the truth:

Invalid Link Removed

Circled is 1R,2S-ephedrine, the most effective constituent of ephedra for fat loss, however, ALL of these and others are found in ephedra. Most extracts are standardized for the alkaloids as a whole (all of the stimulants, not just -ephedrine

Invalid Link Removed

Another image showing the chirality of the hydroxyl group. See how in two of the image, the "OH" is connected to the lines by a dashed fan-like bond? That means it's the alpha orientation, or away from you if it were 3D. This is not optimal for fat loss.
The 1R,2R isomer would be a close second.

Abstract
Ephedrine and its alkaloids are used for the treatment of asthma, nasal congestion, and obesity. Ephedrine, with two chiral centers, exists as four isomers that exhibit direct and indirect effects on both α- and β-adrenergic receptors (AR). Our main goal was to study the direct effects of the ephedrine isomers on human β1-, β2-, and β3-AR expressed in Chinese hamster ovary cells. Previous work indicated that the ephedrine isomers are inactive as agonists and that 1R,2S-ephedrine is more potent than the 1S,2R-isomer as an antagonist of catecholamine-induced lipolysis in rat adipose tissue (Lee et al., J Pharmacol Exp Ther 190: 249–259, 1974). Stimulation of adenylyl cyclase, associated with cyclic AMP accumulations, was measured by a luciferase reporter gene assay. On human β1-AR, the rank order of potency ( 50 values, maximal response relative to isoproterenol = 100%) was 1R,2S-ephedrine (0.5 μM, 68%) > 1S,2R-ephedrine (72 μM, 66%) > 1S,2S-pseudoephedrine (309 μM, 53%) = 1R,2R-pseudoephedrine (1122 μM, 53%). On human β2-AR, the rank order of potency was 1R,2S-ephedrine (0.36 μM, 78%) > 1R,2R-pseudoephedrine (7 μM, 50%) ≥ 1S,2S-pseudoephedrine (10 μM, 47%) > 1S,2R-ephedrine (106 μM, 22%). Only 1R,2S-ephedrine showed significant agonist activity on human β3-AR with an 50 = 45 μM and a maximal response of 31%. Our studies demonstrated that (a) stereoselective and rank order differences exist among the direct effects of ephedrine isomers; (b) 1R,2S-ephedrine is the most potent of the four ephedrine isomers on all three human β-AR; and (c) 1R,2S- ephedrine was nearly equipotent as a β1-/β2-AR agonist and the only isomer possessing weak partial agonist activity on β3-AR.
 
Ephedrine is superior to ephedra.

Looks like you did some homework on Ephedrines effects on Beta receptors ;)


Kindly, are you beginning to see that my initial post has merit???
 
Looks like you did some homework on Ephedrines effects on Beta receptors ;)


Kindly, are you beginning to see that my initial post has merit???

I do apologize on my comment towards broscience, I had no idea it had any impact on insulin but a quick search could have resolved that. I maintain ephedrines is weak on the beta 2 however, if it was strong on the beta 2 then it would have similar results as clen does(i.e. receptor withdrawal into the cell membrane). I still have much to learn tho
 
Ephedrine is superior to ephedra.

lol...To me sounds like you never ran real ephedra before.

Its like comparing Slim xtreme to green tea. SX = Ephedra, Green Tea = ephedrine.

Ephedra does have ephedrine in it and other goodies.
 
I want to run that NYC stack, sounds pretty freaking awesome to me though I am sure you can't get the Norephedrine. What are the doses that were typically ran in the NYC stack of each?\

I stand corrected: Invalid Link Removed

Apparently you can get it in bulk but not sure the dose but 10g will last a long time I am sure.

Ive seen some underground lab make ephedra and NYC stack pills online. Not sure to trust them or not, They also sell pill form of Ostarsim (sp?)
 
Seriously, I have yet to me someone from the 90's and early 2000's that dont wish old school ephedra was still around OTC, ephedrine is garbage in comparison in both effects and fat loss progress. Nothing compares to the old school Xenadrine RFA-1, Adipokinex (nor-ephedrine,) Original Ripped Fuel...nothing unless you get into clen or something.
 
lol...To me sounds like you never ran real ephedra before.

Its like comparing Slim xtreme to green tea. SX = Ephedra, Green Tea = ephedrine.

Ephedra does have ephedrine in it and other goodies.


Did you even read what I posted?
 
Did you even read what I posted?

To be honest, and dont get offended but after I read "Ephedrine is superior to ephedra." I lost my interest. Sorry. I used to debate with my friend PinchTheBear over this too he showed me that a while back I believe.

I just know that the 2 arent even close in effectiveness.
 
To be honest, and dont get offended but after I read "Ephedrine is superior to ephedra." I lost my interest. Sorry. I used to debate with my friend PinchTheBear over this too he showed me that a while back I believe.

I just know that the 2 arent even close in effectiveness.

He is who I am quoting. To disregard a statement because it doesn't suit your opinion is not an intelligent way to approach a problem.
 
He is who I am quoting. To disregard a statement because it doesn't suit your opinion is not an intelligent way to approach a problem.

Im speaking from experience...anecdotal experience so take it what its worth. The difference is dramatic. I think you should try it yourself and you will understand what Im talking about.

This isnt a problem for me so I wont be approaching it that way. Its just that this always comes from younger kids that never ran the old school stuff before.
 
Ok Ill read it in its entirety right now, I over react when I hear people say ephedrine is better than ephedra.
 
I do apologize on my comment towards broscience, I had no idea it had any impact on insulin but a quick search could have resolved that. I maintain ephedrines is weak on the beta 2 however, if it was strong on the beta 2 then it would have similar results as clen does(i.e. receptor withdrawal into the cell membrane). I still have much to learn tho

Agreed on all fronts... We are all here to learn though. I get to find out new stuff ED, love this site and the fellow members for that very reason.

Anabolic Minds
Learn. Teach. Lead.


:thumbsup:
 
Im speaking from experience...anecdotal experience so take it what its worth. The difference is dramatic. I think you should try it yourself and you will understand what Im talking about.

This isnt a problem for me so I wont be approaching it that way. Its just that this always comes from younger kids that never ran the old school stuff before.

The problem is fat loss, the goal is to accelerate it. Ephedra may feel stronger and there by crushing your appetite more but that does not mean it is doing more for fat loss. Experience is important but to just disregard studies because you feel something is better anyways isn't really the best way to approach things.
 
im sorry, but these pissing matches need some articles to back up some of these "claims". Not that im not a fan of bro-science or anything.lol
 
Ok Ill read it in its entirety right now, I over react when I hear people say ephedrine is better than ephedra.

all factors taken into account (sides etc) I would still have to say that Ehcl is better....

Same reason why I like Alpha Y better then Y...


Do you get the full spectrum effects??? no, But you do get the most desired effects, albeit lessened in potency, with a lack of the sides that come with the bad parts of the plant....

This is just personal opinion though as is yours....
 
The problem is fat loss, the goal is to accelerate it. Ephedra may feel stronger and there by crushing your appetite more but that does not mean it is doing more for fat loss. Experience is important but to just disregard studies because you feel something is better anyways isn't really the best way to approach things.

Right, and its possible the appetite suppressing effects and stim effects are greater than direct fat loss you are correct.

Its impossible for me to achieve what I want to achieve with ephedrine as I can with ephedra...also when the mass that I have came across compare the 2 they will agree with me. I dont believe this is a coincidence.

Id like to see a actual study w/ a control group comparing overall fat loss success of ephedrine vs. ephedra. Whats important here is not how you get there, but actually getting there, real world results.

I dont mean to say ephedra causes more direct fat loss, I cant prove that and If I said so I take it back, but in comparison to achieving your goals ephedra is superior.
 
all factors taken into account (sides etc) I would still have to say that Ehcl is better....

Same reason why I like Alpha Y better then Y...


Do you get the full spectrum effects??? no, But you do get the most desired effects, albeit lessened in potency, with a lack of the sides that come with the bad parts of the plant....

This is just personal opinion though as is yours....

Actually in regards to ephedra vs. ephedrine I usually suggest ephedrine as Ive had some bad experiences with ephedra in the past. ephedrine is much cleaner and safer and we both agree on that...I however was speaking of what causes more success and disregarding potential side effect for the argument of which is better.
 
im sorry, but these pissing matches need some articles to back up some of these "claims". Not that im not a fan of bro-science or anything.lol

We need more studies, I agree...we always need more studies they are limited and under-funded.
 
This is what I mean by we need more studies...and I dont believe anybody on this board can truly prove anything scientifically so there will be no winner to a debate on this outside of anecdotal experience.

For example...and athletic performance is 1 factor that has helped me achieve my goals in the past with ephedra.

  • No studies have assessed the effect of dietary supplements containing ephedra and botanicals on athletic performance. The few studies that assessed the effect of ephedrine support a modest effect of ephedrine plus caffeine on very-short-term (1-2 hours after a single dose) athletic performance in a highly selected physically fit population.
Invalid Link Removed
 
im sorry, but these pissing matches need some articles to back up some of these "claims". Not that im not a fan of bro-science or anything.lol

Ok according to the governments website on supplements...studies showed ephedrine/c group lost 2.2lbs more than placebo in 1 month compared to 2.1lbs more than placebo with ephedra/c. So if you want to go by that they are the same.

The studies need to be looked at however, as many factors such as training (which is already stated there are no studies on ephedra and training), diet style, etc.. can be significant contributors. Basically, as I have stated and as is in most situations in the supplement industry outside of creatine...we need more studies to definitely prove things w/ science.

Invalid Link Removed
 
Actually in regards to ephedra vs. ephedrine I usually suggest ephedrine as Ive had some bad experiences with ephedra in the past. ephedrine is much cleaner and safer and we both agree on that...I however was speaking of what causes more success and disregarding potential side effect for the argument of which is better.

I can agree that the ability to really murder your appetite might have a huge advantage on a cut but it is all personal preference. For me ephedrine makes me feel good and crushes my appetite for 2-3 weeks before the effects begin to fade. I've never used ephedra so I can not comment on its effects on appetite.
 
Ok according to the governments website on supplements...studies showed ephedrine/c group lost 2.2lbs more than placebo in 1 month compared to 2.1lbs more than placebo with ephedra/c. So if you want to go by that they are the same.

The studies need to be looked at however, as many factors such as training (which is already stated there are no studies on ephedra and training), diet style, etc.. can be significant contributors. Basically, as I have stated and as is in most situations in the supplement industry outside of creatine...we need more studies to definitely prove things w/ science.

Invalid Link Removed

Regardless 2 extra lbs of fat per month is a lot. :D
 
Regardless 2 extra lbs of fat per month is a lot. :D

Certainly...and if they are the same w/ studies Id take the 2 extra lbs of fat with less sides using ephedrine instead of ephedra.

Ephedra made me impotent for half a year...not even 1,3 dim made me impotent.
 
Back
Top