Eca stack at empty stomach?
- Thread starter fenix91
- Start date
Sourdough
Well-known member
ha...
I gotta admit...
All this talk has got me itching to burn some fat... havnt run any stims for about 2 months now, occasional rockstar aside (VERY SELDOM)... had some bronkaid and no doze left around... so I just popped 12.5mg Ehcl and 50mg caffeine with 2 Refresh and some BCAA's/LCLT this morning..... appetite is toast... Mood is up... had to just force feed a tuna sandwich
Gotta love it.
Only have 7 pills left so just running this a week... got some beta testing to do anyways (compound 20, if it ever arrives, lol).
ax1
Legend
Of course, I read old threads just about daily, maybe too much.
ax1
Legend
That link doesnt work my friend.
Frank Reynolds
Board Supporter
ax1
Legend
I agree...after a month I feel like death when trying to cycle off ephedra.
ax1
Legend
Frank Reynolds
Board Supporter
I couldn't even make it a month..lol I wanted to die after a few days. In fact it kept me from trying ephedrine until this year, because of my experiences from back in the early 2000's with ephedra..
I am about to add in some Yo HCL as my A-Y is about done, so hopefully I can tolerate that OK..hah
ax1
Legend
Regular yohimnine really isnt suggested w/ ephedrine. Its not really a great health decision. Good effective dose for yohimbine hcl is .2mg/kg of bodyweight which is 15-20mg per serving.
Id stick with ephedrine and Alpha-burn, or HEAT.
Frank Reynolds
Board Supporter
ax1
Legend
3 most effective fat burners I have ever used in order in my 18 years experience are
1. Xenadrine RFA-1 and the original Ripped Fuel w/ MaHuang (tie)
2. Original Slim Xtreme
3. Ephedrine/Caffeine/Alpha-Burn stack
Never ran clen and its not in my interest, and I never had the chance to run nor-ephedrine (adipo-kinex)
There is black market for ephedra/caffeine pills and NYC stack at a research lab site, but who knows the quality. Quality is everything. Dont get fooled by those Ephedra Leaves or Ephedra extract products.
Sourdough
Well-known member
ax1 said:
I swear original stimulant x had to be an illegal compound... It was so damn effective yet still clean, there was no logical reason to change the profile...
I beta tested it for them... Lemme tell you I have NEVER been that stimmed before or since...
I had a friend who sadly was into meth cause of a trashy girlfriend. I gave some to him and her... they LOVED the stuff... Think her nasty trash sniffed some even...
Mixelflick
Active member
As with many nutraceuticals, ECA will hit harder on an empty stomach, in large part due to a wide open blood/brain barrier and the absence of an elevated insulin level. You can enhance even this (insofar as intensity and duration of action), by consuming with 8oz of canned grapefruit juice given it contains liberal amounts of narginin. Also, GF juice is a mild diuretic and will remove more than its weight in water.
Your proposed cardio here while adequate, likely isn't optimal. I rather favor fasted state High Intensity Interval Training vs. a graduated or undulating LISS session lasting 10 miles. For although you'll burn roughly the same # of calories, a higher % of those will come from stored bodyfat in a HIIT session - given blood glucose will be low. In addition, Low Intensity Steady State (LISS cardio) work isn't ideal, at least when used frequently. Witness for example, the physique of a long distance runner vs. a sprinter.
Big difference...
Finally, while both herbal/synthetic ECA are well tolerated and efficacious according to studies done by Harvard, Columbia University and overseas etc., it's always a good idea to rule out any pre-existing conditions (i.e. high blood pressure). Consider for example, mixed nuts. I can eat handfuls of them, until the cows come home. The slightest amount of hazelnut though, almost killed a good friend of mine. Rushed to the ER after his air passages closed.
Caveat emptor, and all that...
ax1
Legend
As with many nutraceuticals, ECA will hit harder on an empty stomach, in large part due to a wide open blood/brain barrier and the absence of an elevated insulin level. You can enhance even this (insofar as intensity and duration of action), by consuming with 8oz of canned grapefruit juice given it contains liberal amounts of narginin. Also, GF juice is a mild diuretic and will remove more than its weight in water.
Your proposed cardio here while adequate, likely isn't optimal. I rather favor fasted state High Intensity Interval Training vs. a graduated or undulating LISS session lasting 10 miles. For although you'll burn roughly the same # of calories, a higher % of those will come from stored bodyfat in a HIIT session - given blood glucose will be low. In addition, Low Intensity Steady State (LISS cardio) work isn't ideal, at least when used frequently. Witness for example, the physique of a long distance runner vs. a sprinter.
Big difference...
Finally, while both herbal/synthetic ECA are well tolerated and efficacious according to studies done by Harvard, Columbia University and overseas etc., it's always a good idea to rule out any pre-existing conditions (i.e. high blood pressure). Consider for example, mixed nuts. I can eat handfuls of them, until the cows come home. The slightest amount of hazelnut though, almost killed a good friend of mine. Rushed to the ER after his air passages closed.
Caveat emptor, and all that...
Nice post...hope you dont mind if I quote you below in a response from you on which is better, ephedra or ephedrine...
Over 20 years experience with both the synthetic and herbal extracts, including from both source genus': Sida Cordifolia and Ma Huang.
THE SHORT ANSWER: Provided you have a quality extract, both the synthetic and herbal E plus C have been shown to be both safe and efficacious. This, according to peer reviewed, published studies done at Beth Israel Medical Center (branch of Harvard), Columbia University and overseas. The synthetic is prone to a sharper rise/fall in energy levels, given it usually consists of the two strongest stereo-isomers. The herbal equivalents, lead to a smoother rise/fall which many enjoy as it mitigates the "crash" associated with such.
If I had my druthers (and I do...
Interesting note: Restricting ephedrine/ephedra sales in this country was done via The Patriot Act, of all things.
Mixelflick
Active member
Absolutely not man! The more educated we are about such, the better. People need to understand the TRUTH about ephedrine/ephedra. The stuff is NOT the devil, as the U.S. government and their puppet RAND Commission study would have you believe. Some more truth?
How about the RAND Commission including the "death" of an ephedra "user", who just so happened to be de-capitated after taking some - AFTER he lost his head in a car accident!?! Yes, the fools actually attributed this to ephedra/ephedrine. More?
How about the fact it's an absolute BOON, to your HDL (or "good") cholesterol levels? That's something ELSE the clowns "protecting the children", won't tell you...
itzDodge
Official Genomyx Wizard
In trained individuals fasted training vs. fed training fat expenditure appears to be unimpaired. Also you will burn similar calories in both types of exercise however HIIT has a much great EPOC effect. I would not suggest using HIIT however in individuals in a calorie deficit, especially natural athletes. HIIT is incredibly taxing on the lower body and someone cutting down needs time to recover, incorporating HIIT into a weight loss routine will really **** with leg days and imo leg days are more important then shaving some calories off your day with cardio.
Mixelflick
Active member
There is some merit in what you're saying here, although I respectfully disagree with a portion of it. Allow me then, to elaborate..
I think there is significantly LESS risk of LBM loss with HIIT, especially if nutrient intervention is used (more on that, in 3.0...
). My Blueprint trainees for example, are using HIIT to fantastic effect while in an OVERALL caloric deficit - albeit we use VERY specific, graduated caloric zig-zags in combination with the training template. Your point about HIIT being used at the expense of intensity prior to/after leg days, is well taken. I found this out the hard way, after building up to level 22 on the recumbent bike during my sprint periods. I simply could not duplicate that effort (nor anything even close to it), after a heavy leg day. As well, it's possible that it takes away from your intensity if performed prior to a heavy leg session.
To better address this, my Blueprint trainees are given a template of LISS, HIIT and GPP related cardio to rotate in order to better compliment their weight training. It's a BIG part of the reason, that MANY have been able to simultaneously build muscle and strip an equal (or greater) amount of bodyfat - even in an overall caloric deficit.
Conventional wisdom says this is impossible. However, I can and have done better for my Blueprint folk and can point to MANY that have documented such. Again, understand and appreciate your perspective here. In many respects, HIIT vs. LISS is much like HIT vs. Volume oriented training:
Much like you wouldn't play a round of golf with just woods or just irons - there's a time and a place (as well as merits), for each...
ax1
Legend
Ive cut down my HIIT training to once a week...and the furthest day away from my Leg day with better success on my lifting than doing it several times a week. Another option although unconventional would be to run HIIT cardio on leg day in a second and later training session allowing more complete rest days the rest of the week although I cannot tolerate this protocol myself.
ax1
Legend
There is some merit in what you're saying here, although I respectfully disagree with a portion of it. Allow me then, to elaborate..
I think there is significantly LESS risk of LBM loss with HIIT, especially if nutrient intervention is used (more on that, in 3.0...
I remember reading a study a while back that HIIT cardio will give you a continued increase in metabolism for hours after a training session so even if a short HIIT session and longer LISS training can equate to an equal caloric expenditure at the end of each training session HIIT will pull ahead hours after your finished.
Mixelflick
Active member
Curious, would you please detail the type, duration and other particulars surrounding your HIIT sessions? My intent here isn't to poke holes, only to assist if I can. We have some very unique supp strategies to mitigate any DOMS relating to such, although the fundamentals (intensity, volume and frequency) of exercise are always the focus.
Many thanks. Hopefully, we can all learn how to better address...
itzDodge
Official Genomyx Wizard
itzDodge
Official Genomyx Wizard
When I cut down I prefer the pretty simply every other day routine. Power each time, never for volume on a cut and it simply rotates between upper and lower. I can maintain and still grow on a cut simply due to my lack of experience(I've only been in this game for a year now) and with my initial weight loss HIIT was a huge impact. Last time I cut down and used HIIT I was using an IF style diet. My leg session would come around 1.5 hours after getting about 100G of carbs with some SS. I would have BCAAs and Gatorade while lifting and preferred to run shortly after my lift. If I waited for a period it was challenging because my legs become weaker as the day goes on after a leg exercise, or at least feel more sore.
Mixelflick
Active member
Many thanks...
We seek to solve for this by performing our cardio sessions on "off" days, or those during which there is no weight training. With this approach, we keep insulin much lower given there is no pre-HIIT/cardio carb intake. Further, we utilize a strategy wherein either Glycine or GABA + BCAA's are utilized. Doing so holds much merit, as there is evidence in a transient (although biologically active) GH release in the amount of no less than 480% (Invalid Link Removed).
With respect to BCAA ingestion, we utilize such but with a very specific timing of that dose - given concurrent administration of large neutral amino acids can be problematic. In English, ingesting other large neutral amino's (and especially whole proteins/mixed meals), will compete (and win) with GABA while crossing the blood/brain barrier, washing out GABA's effects.
We do of course, have strategies to address in the absence of supplementation. The key point here is this: In The Blueprint, we never train with less than 100% of what's needed on weight training days. Off days are a different story, and we aim to maximize the merits of a caloric deficit during that time. Make hay while the sun is shining, as they say...
Finally, your point is particularly relevant for those with an ectomorph-like somatype. Whereas meso and endomorphs will stand to lose less LBM with HIIT, ectomorphs in particular need to take (in some cases) extraordinary measures to mitigate muscle loss. This is especially true if toying with an IF type approach, although I'm convinced it can be done.
Again, I appreciate you sharing and hope this is of some benefit...
ax1
Legend
lol...I just realized when you said that you were supporting my statement about avoiding stacking ephedrine and 1,3 dim. Im juggling diplomacy on the phone over here and multitasking and I originally thought you were referring to another statement I made about long term continuous use of just ephedrine.
Im over the hill, thats why I have my son taking over day to day activities.
itzDodge
Official Genomyx Wizard
Many thanks...
We seek to solve for this by performing our cardio sessions on "off" days, or those during which there is no weight training. With this approach, we keep insulin much lower given there is no pre-HIIT/cardio carb intake. Further, we utilize a strategy wherein either Glycine or GABA + BCAA's are utilized. Doing so holds much merit, as there is evidence in a transient (although biologically active) GH release in the amount of no less than 480% (Invalid Link Removed).
With respect to BCAA ingestion, we utilize such but with a very specific timing of that dose - given concurrent administration of large neutral amino acids can be problematic. In English, ingesting other large neutral amino's (and especially whole proteins/mixed meals), will compete (and win) with GABA while crossing the blood/brain barrier, washing out GABA's effects.
We do of course, have strategies to address in the absence of supplementation. The key point here is this: In The Blueprint, we never train with less than 100% of what's needed on weight training days. Off days are a different story, and we aim to maximize the merits of a caloric deficit during that time. Make hay while the sun is shining, as they say...
Finally, your point is particularly relevant for those with an ectomorph-like somatype. Whereas meso and endomorphs will stand to lose less LBM with HIIT, ectomorphs in particular need to take (in some cases) extraordinary measures to mitigate muscle loss. This is especially true if toying with an IF type approach, although I'm convinced it can be done.
Again, I appreciate you sharing and hope this is of some benefit...
I've seen the GABA article back when Bane from another forum made his thread on GABAs awesomeness. Its something I tempted to toy with and Slin Sane as well pre exercise since depleted blood sugar levels should elevate GH release as well.
Invalid Link Removed
I think I'm far from ectomorphic lol, not sure what I am. Up until last year I was fat as ****, cut down to skin and bones now its been almost half a year and someone might call my current physique progress mesomorphic. I don't like the idea of classifying myself though, it gives you an excuse for failure and there shouldn't be any.
Next time I'm cutting down I will give GABA a shot 30-40 minutes prior to training and consume 10G as soon as I begin to spike MPS and prevent too much breakdown, another 10g post for recovery. I'm a big fan of carbs intra workout too but that would go against my depleted blood sugar levels suggestion. I love doing HIIT for training, I find it enjoyable but wish it wasn't so taxing on me. Maybe I'm doing too much HIIT lol. I just use my school track and keep it simple, sprint the straight-ways and walk/jog the corners for 2-3 miles.
ax1
Legend
Personally I advise against the use of GABA for HIIT training...or to at least carefully monitory you pulse/bp.
I would use it only 4 days a week and 4 weeks max...as far as I know GABA can be addictive. Id use 3 grams sub-lingual as it seems to hit harder and faster...and just as a broscience bonus Id also dose 1 gram on the same day pre-bed which also benefited my sleep.
Just to repeat...with my experience GABA for HIIT cardio imo felt dangerous...then again Ill add that I did use 200mg caffeine which may or may not contribute to the effect.
I never ran standalone...but I def feel in my anecdotal experience that fat loss was accelerated which reminds me I should order a bottle soon havent used in in about a year.
I would use it only 4 days a week and 4 weeks max...as far as I know GABA can be addictive. Id use 3 grams sub-lingual as it seems to hit harder and faster...and just as a broscience bonus Id also dose 1 gram on the same day pre-bed which also benefited my sleep.
Just to repeat...with my experience GABA for HIIT cardio imo felt dangerous...then again Ill add that I did use 200mg caffeine which may or may not contribute to the effect.
I never ran standalone...but I def feel in my anecdotal experience that fat loss was accelerated which reminds me I should order a bottle soon havent used in in about a year.
itzDodge
Official Genomyx Wizard
I have lots of experience with GABA for sleep myself and know what it takes. What may have worried you was the impact on shortness of breath? I can totally see that making HIIT really intense. GABA isn't addictive though, its very poor at crossing the BBB, phenyl-GABA(phenibut) is incredibly effective at it though and also addictive, builds tolerance, etc... I would suggest one uses GABA for a while before introducing it prior to training. I'm tempted to order more myself now tho lol
Sourdough
Well-known member
Are there effects that can be achieved with standard GABA that cant with phenibut???
I have had experience with Phenibut in IBE's older liquid form (cant remember the name for the life of me... OH neurobalance)
It worked great for mellowing one out and putting me to sleep but there was def a tolerance built up and a slight feeling of want (addiction) to it but I didnt know it was physiological as I have an addictive personality as it is and grow fond of things easily wanting to envelope myself in it (great trait for learning, bad for substances which is why i avoid alch, MJ, pills etc with the exception of supplements and anabolics where feel my knowledge and want to use responsibly takes over even though I crave it)...
Anyhow.... whats the difference with gaba??? I always just assumed it was a less effective form with the same end effects?
I have had experience with Phenibut in IBE's older liquid form (cant remember the name for the life of me... OH neurobalance)
It worked great for mellowing one out and putting me to sleep but there was def a tolerance built up and a slight feeling of want (addiction) to it but I didnt know it was physiological as I have an addictive personality as it is and grow fond of things easily wanting to envelope myself in it (great trait for learning, bad for substances which is why i avoid alch, MJ, pills etc with the exception of supplements and anabolics where feel my knowledge and want to use responsibly takes over even though I crave it)...
Anyhow.... whats the difference with gaba??? I always just assumed it was a less effective form with the same end effects?
ax1
Legend
There is a human study that GABA increases GH after training more than training alone. This was done with GABA so if you want to try to replicate the study with your own regimen take GABA and not something else.
Invalid Link Removed
Mixelflick
Active member
PA can speak to this better, but if I'm not mistaken Phenibut is a tweaked amino analog of GABa. It's modified in such a fashion to cross the blood brain barrier easier, lasts a LOT longer but there is no GH spike. It DOES certainly have addiction potential, and it's easy to fall in love with the GABA receptors/pleasure/dis-inhibitions etc..
Fair warning: Phenibut is nothing to play around with, and too much is NOT pleasant. Neither is GABA, but Phenibut in particular is NOT a fun ride, when you're on the over-dose express. That's an issue with bulk powders, and Phenibut (like Yohimbe), is easy to screw up. Too easy, IMO. You really do need to know what you're doing/respect the chemical...
That being said, the possible performance enhancement effects of GABA are it's GH boosting effects. Phenibut you can make the argument, as there's research citing improved tolerance to stress, workload etc. if I'm not mistaken. Let's be honest though - this is a stress management tool at best, recreational quasi-drug (search, baclofen) at worst.
Still, I do rather enjoy it given I have issues with stress. It sure beats the HELL out of alcohol, which I refuse to touch...
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
I love it when threads blow up and it doesn't list it in my "subscription" now I am quite backed up.
I saw a comment on "messing" with SNS, let's get over that right now, there is an aspect of "team" but bring facts that's all that's asked.
cardio is quite a bit of movement, couple that with an overnight "fast" i.e. sleeping and you are catabolic. then you add caffeine and ephedra to the mix, yes catabolic indeed!
Catabolism shouldn't be taken lightly regardless of the metabolic pathways and what is broken down. In the case provided, being catabolic isn't ideal, and again it's cardio and stims.
Clen does have small "anabolic" effects, but ephedra does not. While ephedra is good at burning fat, it does not mean that you won't sacrifice muscle. It's not a miracle pill, it does work wonders, but no miracle.
-----
Ok, I probably brought on things that were settled, but I went through the first 3 pages and it didn't seem like it. This thread will probably blast through the weekend, and I'll have to catch up again.
I saw a comment on "messing" with SNS, let's get over that right now, there is an aspect of "team" but bring facts that's all that's asked.
this was in regards to losing muscle, and YES, if you do cardio on an empty stomach upon waking, coupling that with an ephedra caffeine blend, you will be catabolic and burning a significant amount of muscle along with fat, the studies I've seen show they burn at a similar rate during times like this.
movement is catabolic, bro.
cardio is quite a bit of movement, couple that with an overnight "fast" i.e. sleeping and you are catabolic. then you add caffeine and ephedra to the mix, yes catabolic indeed!
elaborate but unnecessary, why does all of this matter?
Catabolism shouldn't be taken lightly regardless of the metabolic pathways and what is broken down. In the case provided, being catabolic isn't ideal, and again it's cardio and stims.
i believe someone called you out on this broscience.
Clen does have small "anabolic" effects, but ephedra does not. While ephedra is good at burning fat, it does not mean that you won't sacrifice muscle. It's not a miracle pill, it does work wonders, but no miracle.
-----
Ok, I probably brought on things that were settled, but I went through the first 3 pages and it didn't seem like it. This thread will probably blast through the weekend, and I'll have to catch up again.
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
yes, phenibut is a tweaked analogue of GABA, and it works wonders.
I didn't get addicted to phenibut as my dose remained lower, but it did actual create a restless leg issue. Apparently during sleep my foot would twitch and my wife got pissed. So, I tried it for a few days and same issue. I kept the 5 on/2off until the bottle was finished, and the sleep was great. However with my wife kicking my leg, I'd rather just go without using the phenibut
Sourdough
Well-known member
Ok lets just put this one to rest... I HATE that no one can say anything anymore without being slammed with the broscience reference.
I HATE that common knowledge (usually stemming from someone at one point or another posting actual studies) is dismissed unless you cram studies in their face proving your point.
The point of these boards are to help others with the knowledge you hold and should be able to do so without this much scrutiny...
SOOOOO without further adieu it looks as though there IS a bit of bro science going on but it is most definitely flowing from my finger tips to your screen....
There are plenty of examples of Ephedrine sharing Clens traits when dosing is consistent to maintain blood levels and mimic the half life of clen (which is actually what gives it its anabolic effects).... So it most definitely ISNT catabolic and can, to a degree, be anabolic:
Happy now???
Thanks for playing.
Frank Reynolds
Board Supporter
Catabolic/catabolism has taken over for starvation mode as the most overused, bull**** term of present day.
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
support your statement with some context, this says nothing, and only gives you a "like"
this is a supplement forum, not facebook, bring it with facts, not your bro's liking your simple statements.
My statement.
Catabolic is a fact and it is not overplayed. People underplay this, the same way they do using piss poor prioritization techniques.
Define catabolism.
What is it and why is it not wanted?
It happens daily, and is inevitable, but there are ways to combat this and people need to be aware.
Define starvation mode? What does it effect, and why does it create issues for people?
Starvation mode is a bit overdone as it uses the fear tactic so people that have gone over 3-4 hours without food decide to overeat or eat what's in site, and this results in diet failure and you bringing on your "logic".
Bring some facts please.
This statement was purely catabolic.
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
thanks for playing? seriously? i'm ruled out here by your horrid studies.
study 1's abstract proves nothing and ppl on both sides of this argument know that. HOW was fat free mass maintained? How? this abstract gives very little detail as to how that effort was maintained.
study 2, has the same effect as it states nothing on how it maintained lean mass. They are OBESE patients, so show the facts.
study 3, and this study seems to only show that there is no difference between consuming ephedrine on an empty stomach doesn't show much if any better result. Which it should be noted that I did not indicate that this should be consumed with a decent meal in the morning. I contested with consuming this on an empty stomach.
SO, thanks for playing, have a good weekend. STOP POSTING CRAP!
nattydisaster
PESCIENCE.com
What's goin on in here?
Frank Reynolds
Board Supporter
The point is people worry so damn much about catabolism, it isn't even funny.
Its my opinion it is over blown, and people act like they are withering away without eating for 5 min. Its ridiculous. Worrying about catabolism, is catabolic.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying it isn't real, or a concern, but 90% of the time I see someone reference it, it is laughable.
And my post wasn't really addressing you, more addressing my peeve of that word and how it gets thrown around these days, not really disputing how you were using it, however.
In the context it is usually used in would lead one to believe, I probably just burned 3 lbs of muscle typing this post without bcaa's.
Its my opinion it is over blown, and people act like they are withering away without eating for 5 min. Its ridiculous. Worrying about catabolism, is catabolic.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying it isn't real, or a concern, but 90% of the time I see someone reference it, it is laughable.
And my post wasn't really addressing you, more addressing my peeve of that word and how it gets thrown around these days, not really disputing how you were using it, however.
In the context it is usually used in would lead one to believe, I probably just burned 3 lbs of muscle typing this post without bcaa's.
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
just starting a revolution, you ready?!
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
It's good you have a sense of humor, as I was not thrilled to see the thread blowin up and basically being dropped into D day.
Catabolic in a forum sense may be overhyped, but in the real world, no.
My issue is this, I've worked in a gym. It's like working in a restaurant then talking to people about the food industry. What happens is a little different than if you talked to another food service worker.
See, if you have joined a forum, you are leaps and bounds above others who have not found forums.
Working in a gym, I have stories, and stories of stupidity, and to the point of someone saying "I added in some whey protein, but I'm not looking to get huge". Yes, those types of stories.
We need to start a thread about things like that, just to hear the stories, because it's amazing.
Anyways, catabolic may be overdone, but people need to know what the hell it is and what it does.