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DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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Patrick Arnold said:
not everything is gonna elute from my column at the conditions it was set at
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What about the other ingredients listed on the label besides Creatine (which shouldn't elute) and Caffeine (which should)? i.e. Now that you have seen the ingredient list for Craze, which of them should have eluted on your column at the conditions you set for during your testing?
 
ShadowJack said:
What about the other ingredients listed on the label besides Creatine (which shouldn't elute) and Caffeine (which should)? i.e. Now that you have seen the ingredient list for Craze, which of them should have eluted on your column at the conditions you set for during your testing?
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i told you what i did. i told you what i saw. i dont know what is actually in your product and it is very common for me to see things on labels that are not detectable when i test. Thats because many labels list stuff that is either not in the product or in the product in minute amounts. you act as though i had some obligation to show that every ingredient on the label was detected in my testing. No. I did the test using objective techniques and i reported the results. you interpret that any way you want
 
PinchTheBear said:
Spare us, Judy Attitudey.
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So you are gonna come on here and say DS didnt sell directly to BB and give them certain deals? How many other times have BB.com Customer Service reps started threads to give away 10-15 tubs of products. Would you like me to cointinue???
 
mw1 said:
So you are gonna come on here and say DS didnt sell directly to BB and give them certain deals? How many other times have BB.com Customer Service reps started threads to give away 10-15 tubs of products. Would you like me to cointinue???
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If you're insinuating that we incentivized anything bb.com employees did on their own accord, you're just wrong. Let's say we did just for ****s- you really want to play an ethics card, Mike?
 
mw1 said:
So you are gonna come on here and say DS didnt sell directly to BB and give them certain deals? How many other times have BB.com Customer Service reps started threads to give away 10-15 tubs of products. Would you like me to cointinue???
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But there are a number of possibilities as to why his comments were deleted so unless you know exactly why... your comments in relation to these events are equally "full of ****"

Anyway putting things into perspective it's bb.com who gives a flying fark, dat sh*t craaaay
 
PinchTheBear said:
If you're insinuating that we incentivized anything bb.com employees did on their own accord, you're just wrong. Let's say we did just for ****s- you really want to play an ethics card, Mike?
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Sure.......You dont think someone who has previously served prison time for selling misbranded drugs should be questioned about a product that has caused some"strange effects" for quite a few users?. I know you guys state that its only a "handful" buy there have been quite a few here but unfortunately DS doesnt have SMF to attack the members here.....which that is another whole situation that certain companies are looking at?
 
mw1 said:
Sure.......You dont think someone who has previously served prison time for selling misbranded drugs should be questioned about a product that has caused some"strange effects" for quite a few users?. I know you guys state that its only a "handful" buy there have been quite a few here but unfortunately DS doesnt have SMF to attack the members here.....which that is another whole situation that certain companies are looking at?
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Blast from the past... I think Andy was in grade school when the SMF was in full force. :D
 
mw1 said:
Sure.......You dont think someone who has previously served prison time for selling misbranded drugs should be questioned about a product that has caused some"strange effects" for quite a few users?. I know you guys state that its only a "handful" buy there have been quite a few here but unfortunately DS doesnt have SMF to attack the members here.....which that is another whole situation that certain companies are looking at?
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Classy deflection. You really have no clue.
 
PinchTheBear said:
Classy deflection. You really have no clue.
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Instead of addressing users' concerns and just answering basic questions, DS chose to have those indiv attacked and discredited. While I'm sure there are a few trollers , there are also users with legitimate questions.
 
mw1 said:
No offense but you are full of **** on that one
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For the record, they have never requested a member be banned here......ever since 2002-03 since they came on. Yeah, that long...
 
OTOH I've banned people out of boredom and because I simply don't care.



:gives:
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i told you what i did. i told you what i saw. i dont know what is actually in your product and it is very common for me to see things on labels that are not detectable when i test. Thats because many labels list stuff that is either not in the product or in the product in minute amounts. you act as though i had some obligation to show that every ingredient on the label was detected in my testing. No. I did the test using objective techniques and i reported the results. you interpret that any way you want
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Certainly you had no obligation to show that every ingredient on the label was detected during your testing since you clearly had no idea what ingredients were listed on the Craze label until I posted them on this thread 2 days ago.

I was simply asking you what ingredients (from the list that I posted) would you expect to see during your testing at the conditions you set? You already mentioned that Creatine would not elute but that caffeine should have. What I am asking is what other ingredients (from the list that I posted) would you have expected to see?
 
ShadowJack said:
What about the other ingredients listed on the label besides Creatine (which shouldn't elute) and Caffeine (which should)? i.e. Now that you have seen the ingredient list for Craze, which of them should have eluted on your column at the conditions you set for during your testing?
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Perhaps showing us a mass spec performed by DS would circumvent the necessity for more lame banter. Your company list ingredients on the label. Provide proof the ingredients are in fact present and N-benzyl is not present rather than just challenging others. Otherwise, DS appears as if either they have no clue what is present or they prefer not to show what is present. It is more about what you don't say and your tact in engaging others in pissing matches over collateral issues that continues to raise red flags with me.
 
mw1 said:
So you are gonna come on here and say DS didnt sell directly to BB and give them certain deals? How many other times have BB.com Customer Service reps started threads to give away 10-15 tubs of products. Would you like me to cointinue???
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Just to replace the removed posts somewhat:

We have a partnership with Bodybuilding.com, hence the relationship.

However we had no part in the customer service reps offering the giveaway, but it was super cool of them to do so. They handed out their OWN tubs under their OWN initiative because they love the product and dig the brand.

The weekend we spent with the CS team was pretty much the first time any company had actually done that. We spent two days giving seminars about how to use and stack DS products, as well as awaring them all about Craze. We also got a lot of office morale going with a burger eating challenge (HUGE burgers from Big Judd, as featured on Man vs Food), a Hawaiin BBQ; and we also got a chance to train with a couple of the guys. All in all a very fun trip. It's no surprise that a ton of other companies then started doing the exact same thing, forgoing the time spent at corporate HQ to spend time with the CS team. That is why they offered to give away their own stuff to promote DS.
 
Admin said:
For the record, they have never requested a member be banned here......ever since 2002-03 since they came on. Yeah, that long...
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No one at DS requested Neuron be banned from BB.com, nor did we request his posts be deleted. If mods had deleted his posts they would have also removed the posts where he was quoted, which are still clearly visible. In fact, they'd have saved a lot of effort by just removing the thread(s) entirely. They haven't.

Unless something was posed and removed that I missed but a moderator saw, there is no reason for neuron to be banned on bb.com at all.
 
996ttelise said:
Perhaps showing us a mass spec performed by DS would circumvent the necessity for more lame banter. Your company list ingredients on the label. Provide proof the ingredients are in fact present and N-benzyl is not present rather than just challenging others. Otherwise, DS appears as if either they have no clue what is present or they prefer not to show what is present. It is more about what you don't say and your tact in engaging others in pissing matches over collateral issues that continues to raise red flags with me.
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I guess this is what I don't get. I want to believe DS, I've used and been pleased with many DS products and I'm glad they finally have some people talking in this thread. It seems like a simple request, I don't know if it's the lawsuit or they know somethings up or whatever. I have no idea. I mean if it's legit it would end the thread and I'd go buy a tub of craze this instant. At the very least could someone from DS explain why this can't happen?
 
Geoforce said:
I guess this is what I don't get. I want to believe DS, I've used and been pleased with many DS products and I'm glad they finally have some people talking in this thread. It seems like a simple request, I don't know if it's the lawsuit or they know somethings up or whatever. I have no idea. I mean if it's legit it would end the thread and I'd go buy a tub of craze this instant. At the very least could someone from DS explain why this can't happen?
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What exactly are you looking for from us?
 
Geoforce said:
I guess this is what I don't get. I want to believe DS, I've used and been pleased with many DS products and I'm glad they finally have some people talking in this thread. It seems like a simple request, I don't know if it's the lawsuit or they know somethings up or whatever. I have no idea. I mean if it's legit it would end the thread and I'd go buy a tub of craze this instant. At the very least could someone from DS explain why this can't happen?
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Amatuer hour. They rather clog the board bantering over collateral issues than durectly address anything of real value. If I was not so damn tired from 7 HRT trials, Levaquin, Depuy, BP oil spill, and 2 ERISA cases in just the last four years, this could be entertaining to look into just based on the players alone. The small size of companies and claims, if any, are almost outweighed by the juicy intangibles . . . Almost. Don't even get stories and players like these with big pharma which is saying a lot more than most would realize.
 
KerplunkDS said:
What exactly are you looking for from us?
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I haven't seen any DS rep come in here and say something to the effect of Craze has exactly what we say it has in it on the label, it's harmless (other than the stock crap that comes on the side of any supplement), and ideally independent proof of the it has what it says it has on the label. I understand if some or all of those requests can't be met.
 
mw1 said:
I think people would just like to know IF there are any risks in using this at varies dosages and lengths......thats pretty much it~that would make me happy for one
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Ortho-McNiel will tell you Levaquin is safe, yet I have young, healthy athletic clients who suffered spontaneous tendon ruptures while on or immediately after finishing a 7 to 10 day course. These include a 32 year old high school football coach, a 28 year old teacher who ran marathons and a college footbal player among others.
 
PinchTheBear said:
Spare us, Judy Attitudey.
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How many beers in was this post lol? Pretty clever.

mw1 said:
Instead of addressing users' concerns and just answering basic questions, DS chose to have those indiv attacked and discredited. While I'm sure there are a few trollers , there are also users with legitimate questions.
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PinchTheBear said:
Classy deflection. You really have no clue.
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Well, something we can all agree on is that SNS Agmatine Powder+Craze provides some killer pumps....
 
ShadowJack said:
Certainly you had no obligation to show that every ingredient on the label was detected during your testing since you clearly had no idea what ingredients were listed on the Craze label until I posted them on this thread 2 days ago.

I was simply asking you what ingredients (from the list that I posted) would you expect to see during your testing at the conditions you set? You already mentioned that Creatine would not elute but that caffeine should have. What I am asking is what other ingredients (from the list that I posted) would you have expected to see?
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where did you post a list?

i would expect to see the phenethylamines (and i did see two of them). the dendrobine stuff i am not sure but i would expect to see them too

i would not expect to see any amino acids

tell me, are you involved with the operations of DS? Do you know exactly what goes into their products? Are you privy to the analyses of the starting materials that are being put into their products?

Or are you just a rep
 
996ttelise said:
Perhaps showing us a mass spec performed by DS would circumvent the necessity for more lame banter. Your company list ingredients on the label. Provide proof the ingredients are in fact present and N-benzyl is not present rather than just challenging others. Otherwise, DS appears as if either they have no clue what is present or they prefer not to show what is present. It is more about what you don't say and your tact in engaging others in pissing matches over collateral issues that continues to raise red flags with me.
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to be fair they shouldnt have to provide a comprehensive analysis of their product because that would reveal propietary information. At the same time though they cant sit back and bust my balls for what i saw and did not see and at the same time continue to keep their formula a secret.
 
well I have the original craze tub (TMG listed as 1st ingredient), the relabelled (with creatine mono listed as 1st ingredient); wonder if I should order the latest craze flavor just to see if the "kick/feel " is the same

curious if all 3 craze tubs will show same peak(s) on the chromatograph
 
raptor2003 said:
well I have the original craze tub (TMG listed as 1st ingredient), the relabelled (with creatine mono listed as 1st ingredient); wonder if I should order the latest craze flavor just to see if the "kick/feel " is the same

curious if all 3 craze tubs will show same peak(s) on the chromatograph
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yeh i have been wondering this too, have tried original and relabelled craze so far and can't say i've noticed any differences...

Patrick Arnold said:
what is SMF?
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good question
 
Ive used both and the feeling is the same.

I believe they said they only changed the order because people were more likely to know creatine mono then TMG.
 
3clipseGT said:
Ive used both and the feeling is the same.

I believe they said they only changed the order because people were more likely to know creatine mono then TMG.
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thats a weird thing to say if they said that, unless both ingredients are present in the exact same amounts. Because the law demands propietary blends have ingredient listed in descending order of prevalence
 
Patrick Arnold said:
thats a weird thing to say if they said that, unless both ingredients are present in the exact same amounts. Because the law demands propietary blends have ingredient listed in descending order of prevalence
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What if they are both in there in the same amounts?
 
Would it be safe to say that all this online banter between forums is likely a waste of time and that the courts will determine whether Craze is compliant and meets it's label claims?

I realize that forums are for discussion and that's all well and good, but it seems rather pointless to expend so much time and energy when none of these tests or hypotheses are going to mean much in legal terms.

All the accusations in the world will amount to nothing more than a hill of beans once this suit is dropped.

I'll say again as I've said before, there's just no way Driven Sports would put ingredients that were not compliant into a product that would be under such intense scrutiny. It's too much of a game-changer. This isn't some lame VPX pre-workout that will never see the inside of a lab because it doesn't do anything and no one cares.
 
I'd just like to reiterate that Craze is the best PWO out there, by leaps and bounds. Disclaimer: I have no affiliations with DS, and supplement wars/novellas are on par with going to an Adam Lambert concert, as both share certain similarities.
 
southpaw23 said:
I'd just like to reiterate that Craze is the best PWO out there, by leaps and bounds. Disclaimer: I have no affiliations with DS, and supplement wars/novellas are on par with going to an Adam Lambert concert, as both share certain similarities.
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Is that the guy who was "The Highlander" in all those movies?

I wish he'd do more films, as I was a huge fan. It wasn't so much his acting ability, as his strange way of speaking. It was haunting.

If he's doing musical acts now, I'd be keen to go and hear what he has to say. Does he still wear a kilt?
 
starrk said:
Would it be safe to say that all this online banter between forums is likely a waste of time and that the courts will determine whether Craze is compliant and meets it's label claims?

I realize that forums are for discussion and that's all well and good, but it seems rather pointless to expend so much time and energy when none of these tests or hypotheses are going to mean much in legal terms.

All the accusations in the world will amount to nothing more than a hill of beans once this suit is dropped.

I'll say again as I've said before, there's just no way Driven Sports would put ingredients that were not compliant into a product that would be under such intense scrutiny. It's too much of a game-changer. This isn't some lame VPX pre-workout that will never see the inside of a lab because it doesn't do anything and no one cares.
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Vpx sells a ****load of product outside the forums.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
thats a weird thing to say if they said that, unless both ingredients are present in the exact same amounts. Because the law demands propietary blends have ingredient listed in descending order of prevalence
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Im not 100% positive but i believe they said they are both present in the same amounts.
 
starrk said:
Is that the guy who was "The Highlander" in all those movies?

I wish he'd do more films, as I was a huge fan. It wasn't so much his acting ability, as his strange way of speaking. It was haunting.

If he's doing musical acts now, I'd be keen to go and hear what he has to say. Does he still wear a kilt?
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Chances are he still rocks a kilt, though not in highlander, mostly at slumber parties.
 
Royd The Noyd said:
Vpx sells a ****load of product outside the forums.
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I don't doubt it, but the customers they cater to obviously don't possess the glorious analytical minds that these various online bodybuilding forums do.

You won't see your average herpa-derp *** customer purchasing a product and then doing anything more than glancing at the label while the salesman regales them with tales of glorious pumps and limitless vascularity.

lol, didn't realize gee en see was censored here.

itzDodge said:
He's referencing their Friction preworkout that has a potentially non DSHEA compliant ingredient(isopropyloctopamine). There is a couple threads on it over at BB.com
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And that. Don't ban me bro.
 
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