DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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pharmaceutical companies, food companies, car companies. most of them have their own in house quality control. they dont outsource it to third parties

if its good enough for these industries it should be good enough for the supplement industry
 
Gutterpump said:
Why not disclose the results? Makes testing pointless imo. I keep saying 3rd party, because I will not trust any company that does their own testing in-house, seems totally pointless. Case in point - testing of peptides (think, PH forum using their own lab, GWP, etc). I'm sure you know the deal. Different situation though as those aren't supplements, but same issue. I don't trust people who do testing in-house, unless I KNOW they are trustworthy company. But all that is subjective.
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none of these grey market peptide companies have the ability to do their own in house testing so i dont really think you made a good point here. if one of them did have the ability to do their own in house testing then the results would be as trustworthy as they would be if a third party did it IMO
 
jobless said:
Ok I have a question for the experienced guys in the industry. If a company like ds comes up with something that works great can they apply for a patent on there "recipe" or "design" of there product? the reason I ask is if they list "proprietary blend" as a way of hiding whats in it so competitors don't copy it why not just list whats in it and patent the ratios. I mean if they really believe in there product and think they've done something worth money then why not put it out there for people to see. the patent would protect there investment in both there efforts and there market share and it would allow them to list ingredients properly so people could tell by reading the label whats in it and what there digesting.
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there is no need for a patent. you just list the ingredients under a propietary blend and you dont have to disclose the ratios

a patent could give extra protection as it could disallow any combination of ingredients. however to get a patent you need data to demonstrate that what you have is unique and unobvious. plus, a patent application (when published) often can provide others with the recipe to copy the product
 
Patrick Arnold said:
why do you keep saying 3rd party? It does not have to be 3rd party. The testing has to be done though

companies wont disclose results for various reasons. i would venture to guess that the vast majority of sports supplement products dont test their products. Only the very biggest companies do. Its simply too expensive. That is reality
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We test everything here- all in-process testing, micro, disintegration, content/blend uniformity, etc.- speeds up the process dramatically. We run 15-20 batches a month, and it would be very cost-prohibitive to outsource our testing, if we wanted it to be done correctly and by the letter of the law (key point, this is VERY important to us). Micro alone takes 3-5 days at most major facilities, plus shipping time there and back. Doing it here helps big time, as does all of the other testing we do on every batch, plus incoming raw materials and excipients.

To Patrick's point, I don't think a lot of companies test correctly, if at all. I hear a lot of jawboning about cGMPs, but having set up this type of facility- I can tell you that it is a huge pain in the ass, is VERY time-consuming, and it is expensive (but worthwhile). I may be wrong, but based on what I have seen around the industry, things aren't getting done correctly. And to Patrick's other point- that is reality
 
rms80 said:
We test everything here- all in-process testing, micro, disintegration, content/blend uniformity, etc.- speeds up the process dramatically. We run 15-20 batches a month, and it would be very cost-prohibitive to outsource our testing, if we wanted it to be done correctly and by the letter of the law (key point, this is VERY important to us). Micro alone takes 3-5 days at most major facilities, plus shipping time there and back. Doing it here helps big time, as does all of the other testing we do on every batch, plus incoming raw materials and excipients.
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turn around times at labs are typically 7-10 days. if you want to test several components in a product you will usually have to pay a fee for each component to be tested. it easily can exceed 1000 bucks. if you want it faster the price goes way up

i know at least one gmp manufacuter that simply validates their finished product composition by showing the weights of the ingredients that were added to the blend. so even some gmp people dont follow the rules because if they did they would not be able to offer the really low prices that they do
 
DAdams91982 said:
I could care less if BK, RK and PA test products as much as they want or are paid to do... if your company is following the letter of the law then you have nothing to worry about. Again, you are defending a company that has their share of a past.. so essentially it is a pot/kettle thing.
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You really really should, not sure if you are new or just unaware. There are long dead threads from the 1fast400 forums and old bb.com forums that rank in the somewhere above epic. They are murky meandering bitch fest full of cheap shots and personal vendettas. Its good to see Pat back to his old ways, its good to know he is doing something since he really isnt bringing any decent products back onto the market(will possibly forgive you for some tubs of GfPro, **** was beyond tasty).

Maybe the the pain of someone else making bank of Geranamine was too painful.......good thing someone did something about that...

If BK and William start posting in this thread i may die from nostalgia.

Its so good to see the man that created the gold medal winning clean burning fuel doing his civic duty and making sure everyone is obeying the law.....You still go by "the clear chemist" dont you Pat?"
 
rms80 said:
We test everything here- all in-process testing, micro, disintegration, content/blend uniformity, etc.- speeds up the process dramatically. We run 15-20 batches a month, and it would be very cost-prohibitive to outsource our testing, if we wanted it to be done correctly and by the letter of the law (key point, this is VERY important to us). Micro alone takes 3-5 days at most major facilities, plus shipping time there and back. Doing it here helps big time, as does all of the other testing we do on every batch, plus incoming raw materials and excipients.

To Patrick's point, I don't think a lot of companies test correctly, if at all. I hear a lot of jawboning about cGMPs, but having set up this type of facility- I can tell you that it is a huge pain in the ass, is VERY time-consuming, and it is expensive (but worthwhile). I may be wrong, but based on what I have seen around the industry, things aren't getting done correctly. And to Patrick's other point- that is reality
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I guess part of me wonders where is the incentive? It isn't as if companies are ignored on here or other forums if they don't show off all their COA's, testing, blah, blah, blah. We (the consumers) certainly don't demand it. How many of say the top 100 supplements on NP RIGHT NOW could we easily find proof that include the exact amount of everything they say they do? 30? 20? Hell 15? As consumers we don't demand this proof. We might wish for it with our voices, but with our dollars we certainly aren't. I guess part of me thinks maybe we as consumers kinda reap what we sow. We don't demand the testing, we support companies who don't do the testing, and then we get on here and bitch about it after it comes out? I'm just as guilty as anyone else...yet another follow what I say not as I do type situation.

Kudos for going above and beyond the call of duty...but a lot of supplement consumers certainly aren't given people a really good reason for not taking the easy way out.
 
Geoforce said:
I guess part of me wonders where is the incentive? It isn't as if companies are ignored on here or other forums if they don't show off all their COA's, testing, blah, blah, blah. We (the consumers) certainly don't demand it. How many of say the top 100 supplements on NP RIGHT NOW could we easily find proof that include the exact amount of everything they say they do? 30? 20? Hell 15? As consumers we don't demand this proof. We might wish for it with our voices, but with our dollars we certainly aren't. I guess part of me thinks maybe we as consumers kinda reap what we sow. We don't demand the testing, we support companies who don't do the testing, and then we get on here and bitch about it after it comes out? I'm just as guilty as anyone else...yet another follow what I say not as I do type situation.

Kudos for going above and beyond the call of duty...but a lot of supplement consumers certainly aren't given people a really good reason for not taking the easy way out.
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When you find a truly quality company, stick with them. Your mind would be blown at how often label claims are not met
 
mr.cooper69 said:
When you find a truly quality company, stick with them. Your mind would be blown at how often label claims are not met
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I have no doubt about the label claims not being met part. Sometimes companies I thought were truly quality have proven not to be however.
 
Geoforce said:
I guess part of me wonders where is the incentive? It isn't as if companies are ignored on here or other forums if they don't show off all their COA's, testing, blah, blah, blah. We (the consumers) certainly don't demand it. How many of say the top 100 supplements on NP RIGHT NOW could we easily find proof that include the exact amount of everything they say they do? 30? 20? Hell 15? As consumers we don't demand this proof. We might wish for it with our voices, but with our dollars we certainly aren't. I guess part of me thinks maybe we as consumers kinda reap what we sow. We don't demand the testing, we support companies who don't do the testing, and then we get on here and bitch about it after it comes out? I'm just as guilty as anyone else...yet another follow what I say not as I do type situation.

Kudos for going above and beyond the call of duty...but a lot of supplement consumers certainly aren't given people a really good reason for not taking the easy way out.
Click to expand...

+12345
 
Geoforce said:
I guess part of me wonders where is the incentive? It isn't as if companies are ignored on here or other forums if they don't show off all their COA's, testing, blah, blah, blah. We (the consumers) certainly don't demand it. How many of say the top 100 supplements on NP RIGHT NOW could we easily find proof that include the exact amount of everything they say they do? 30? 20? Hell 15? As consumers we don't demand this proof. We might wish for it with our voices, but with our dollars we certainly aren't. I guess part of me thinks maybe we as consumers kinda reap what we sow. We don't demand the testing, we support companies who don't do the testing, and then we get on here and bitch about it after it comes out? I'm just as guilty as anyone else...yet another follow what I say not as I do type situation.

Kudos for going above and beyond the call of duty...but a lot of supplement consumers certainly aren't given people a really good reason for not taking the easy way out.
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To me, doing all if this isn't just about personal integrity- it also allows us to produce better products. Knowing and having the ability to perform the entire process behind manufacturing and analytical testing helps me a great deal on the formulation and pharmacology side of things. It gives me a broader knowledge and critical thought base, and it gets me asking the right questions when i need to, especially when dealing with suppliers and sourcing- there are some very dishonest raw material suppliers out there (but some really good ones also). There are some good co-mfrs out there that do follow the rules, but they aren't cheap. Some of the pricing For some of products I see on the market doesn't really add up, especially lately- I know what we pay, and if they are using what they say they are using, there is literally 0 margin- concerning to say the least
 
Patrick Arnold said:
none of these grey market peptide companies have the ability to do their own in house testing so i dont really think you made a good point here. if one of them did have the ability to do their own in house testing then the results would be as trustworthy as they would be if a third party did it IMO
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What happened was a forum that works with a competitor, did their own in-house testing of their competitors product and then bad mouthed them online. Who knows if the results are skewed or real when agendas are at play.

Here's an article that someone sent me, and said it's worth reading. I haven't had a chance to check it out in full yet though, but it brings up some great points:

Invalid Link Removed
 
Tomahawk88 said:
^^ I feel so safe about my supplements now haha.
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i almost never take products that are multi-ingredient formulas cuz i have no idea what the hell i am taking. most of my supplements are single ingredient products. the one exception is a workout powder called amino matrix but i know whats in it.
 
SardonicMedic said:
You really really should, not sure if you are new or just unaware. There are long dead threads from the 1fast400 forums and old bb.com forums that rank in the somewhere above epic. They are murky meandering bitch fest full of cheap shots and personal vendettas. Its good to see Pat back to his old ways, its good to know he is doing something since he really isnt bringing any decent products back onto the market(will possibly forgive you for some tubs of GfPro, **** was beyond tasty).

Maybe the the pain of someone else making bank of Geranamine was too painful.......good thing someone did something about that...

If BK and William start posting in this thread i may die from nostalgia.

Its so good to see the man that created the gold medal winning clean burning fuel doing his civic duty and making sure everyone is obeying the law.....You still go by "the clear chemist" dont you Pat?"
Click to expand...

dat all u got?
 
Geoforce said:
I guess part of me wonders where is the incentive? It isn't as if companies are ignored on here or other forums if they don't show off all their COA's, testing, blah, blah, blah. We (the consumers) certainly don't demand it. How many of say the top 100 supplements on NP RIGHT NOW could we easily find proof that include the exact amount of everything they say they do? 30? 20? Hell 15? As consumers we don't demand this proof. We might wish for it with our voices, but with our dollars we certainly aren't. I guess part of me thinks maybe we as consumers kinda reap what we sow. We don't demand the testing, we support companies who don't do the testing, and then we get on here and bitch about it after it comes out? I'm just as guilty as anyone else...yet another follow what I say not as I do type situation.

Kudos for going above and beyond the call of duty...but a lot of supplement consumers certainly aren't given people a really good reason for not taking the easy way out.
Click to expand...

in the case of propietary blends a certificate of analysis really cant be disclosed because propietary means secret. I suppose if the details on the amounts of ingredients is redacted though it can at least prove an analysis was done
 
i recently tested a competitors product and found it to be underdosed by about 50%. Before I could tell the competitor the bad news (i really felt bad about doing that actually) I noticed the product had been removed. So i never had to say anything. phew
 
Gutterpump said:
What happened was a forum that works with a competitor, did their own in-house testing of their competitors product and then bad mouthed them online. Who knows if the results are skewed or real when agendas are at play.
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u talking about the guy over at phf?

those testing results were in house? i thought they were done at an independent lab

u bring up a good point though and that is for testing to be completely trusted it has to be done with proper chain of custody by a lab with no vested interest in the results.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
u talking about the guy over at phf?

those testing results were in house? i thought they were done at an independent lab

u bring up a good point though and that is for testing to be completely trusted it has to be done with proper chain of custody by a lab with no vested interest in the results.
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Precisely, and this comes back to the whole competition thing, and a lot of what Southpaw was getting at. Who's doing the testing (and most assuredly if it is a competitor) and how do we know the testing is accurate?

The no vested interest in the results is crucial. If Competitor A is getting its butt kicked by Competitor B then a huge incentive exists for A to falsify results or set something up to get B's product off the market/raise concerns of safety. Such is competition though, it's a little like politics...I don't necessarily have to have better ideas than you if I can make everyone afraid of you I'll gain the support.
 
Geoforce said:
Precisely, and this comes back to the whole competition thing, and a lot of what Southpaw was getting at. Who's doing the testing (and most assuredly if it is a competitor) and how do we know the testing is accurate?
.
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well in the case of this peptide testing the companies that are selling the purportedly bunk material has their chance to come back and show a certificate analysis supporting their material. When they dont do so then you gotta realize that they have no idea what they are selling

i found the phf results not unexpected. the smaller peptides generally tested out ok, the bigger ones didnt. that is what i kind of suspected alll along
 
gmp regulations do have a good bro exemption. if you qualify as a good bro company than quality control testing is not necessary. because the laws of nature simply would not allow a good bro to sell anything but stand up goods
 
Patrick Arnold said:
well in the case of this peptide testing the companies that are selling the purportedly bunk material has their chance to come back and show a certificate analysis supporting their material. When they dont do so then you gotta realize that they have no idea what they are selling

i found the phf results not unexpected. the smaller peptides generally tested out ok, the bigger ones didnt. that is what i kind of suspected alll along
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Speaking generally FWIW, not at specific cases.
 
Geoforce said:
Speaking generally FWIW, not at specific cases.
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i dont recall a case ever being revealed where a competitor maligns another with a fompletely ake analysis of product.

that certainly would be a very very low move. our industry is full of scumballs but i dont know if anyone would actually do that.

some people may hate kramer but when he gets a product tested it is a real test
 
Patrick Arnold said:
would u expect it to have any decent activity? i wouldnt but who knows. i got a sample coming from sigma aldrich, i will see if it matches up on the mass spec
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n-benzyl derivatives (benzphetamine) are mostly thought to "work" by being amphetamine precursors. the parent compound probably has some "releasing" activity, although less CNS penetration prior to N-benzyl cleavage.

N-benzyl-2-PEA, as a PEA prodrug, will simply extend the half-life of PEA, and possess a local anesthetic property which is common to N-benzyl derivatives of amphetamine (n-benzylamphetamine).
 
madchemist said:
n-benzyl derivatives (benzphetamine) are mostly thought to "work" by being amphetamine precursors. the parent compound probably has some "releasing" activity, although less CNS penetration prior to N-benzyl cleavage.

N-benzyl-2-PEA, as a PEA prodrug, will simply extend the half-life of PEA, and possess a local anesthetic property which is common to N-benzyl derivatives of amphetamine (n-benzylamphetamine).
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Would this be why Craze makes my throat numb? It feels exactly the same as sore throat spray.
 
madchemist said:
n-benzyl derivatives (benzphetamine) are mostly thought to "work" by being amphetamine precursors. the parent compound probably has some "releasing" activity, although less CNS penetration prior to N-benzyl cleavage.

N-benzyl-2-PEA, as a PEA prodrug, will simply extend the half-life of PEA, and possess a local anesthetic property which is common to N-benzyl derivatives of amphetamine (n-benzylamphetamine).
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so there is an enzyme which N-dealkylates PEAs? (alkyl meaning a hydrocarbon group i.e, methyl, benzyl, allyl etc)

i guess there has to be since deprenyl can convert to meth
 
bdcc said:
Would this be why Craze makes my throat numb? It feels exactly the same as sore throat spray.
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I've noticed a numbing effect in my mouth since I hold it there before swallowing.

Craze is an effective, powerful product but I might be sending my remaining amount back to Nutraplanet. The recent controversy has made me more cautious about supplements in general. I like what I am reading in this thread about the rigorous testing by Patrick Arnold's companies and Applied Neutraceuticals.

Who else is trusted to do thorough testing? I assume Life Extension Foundation is also trustworthy but I do not know.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
so there is an enzyme which N-dealkylates PEAs? (alkyl meaning a hydrocarbon group i.e, methyl, benzyl, allyl etc)

i guess there has to be since deprenyl can convert to meth
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Yes, both n-benzylamphetamine and bezphetamine produce N-dealklyated products in humans (similar to selegiline). Technically, the alpha carbon pushes the rxn more towards n-dealkylated products, which n-benzyl-2-PEA is lacking, and so the yield of n-dealkylated products is probably less to some degree. Probably the easiest metabolic deactivation would be p-hydroxylation.
 
Cogrick2 said:
I've noticed a numbing effect in my mouth since I hold it there before swallowing.

Craze is an effective, powerful product but I might be sending my remaining amount back to Nutraplanet. The recent controversy has made me more cautious about supplements in general. I like what I am reading in this thread about the rigorous testing by Patrick Arnold's companies and Applied Neutraceuticals.

Who else is trusted to do thorough testing? I assume Life Extension Foundation is also trustworthy but I do not know.
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LEF definitely can be trusted
 
Mission1 said:
I second that notion on LEF. Been buying there for years. Enjoy there magazines.
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I like their articles on the FDA. Jarrow recently filed a complaint to the FDA.

This might sound dumb, but companies willing to go against the FDA would most likely have nothing to hide. I would trust these brands.
 
madchemist said:
Yes, both n-benzylamphetamine and bezphetamine produce N-dealklyated products in humans (similar to selegiline). Technically, the alpha carbon pushes the rxn more towards n-dealkylated products, which n-benzyl-2-PEA is lacking, and so the yield of n-dealkylated products is probably less to some degree. Probably the easiest metabolic deactivation would be p-hydroxylation.
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Do you see any potential role for this ingredient in the formula, as opposed to standalone?
 
rob112 said:
I like their articles on the FDA. Jarrow recently filed a complaint to the FDA.

This might sound dumb, but companies willing to go against the FDA would most likely have nothing to hide. I would trust these brands.
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when you are worth a billion plus dollars you arent so afraid to take on the fda
 
Patrick Arnold said:
when you are worth a billion plus dollars you arent so afraid to take on the fda
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Plus, you can probably afford proper in house testing, therefore unafraid to be looked at under a microscope.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Do you see any potential role for this ingredient in the formula, as opposed to standalone?
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The half-life should be longer vs. regular PEA, albiet with less direct CNS penetration, and the anesthetic effect is somewhat novel.

Supposedly, this product is also contaminated/spiked with N-ethyl-beta-methyl-PEA which would also enjoy a longer half-life, and with greater CNS penetration.

And speaking of an anesthetic effect, the label indicates it contains N,N-diethyl-PEA, which should also possess anesthetic properties (i.e. dimethocaine/lidocaine). Keep in mind that blocking sodium channels is not exactly the safest mechanism for drugs which reach systemic circulation.
 
madchemist said:
The half-life should be longer vs. regular PEA, albiet with less direct CNS penetration, and the anesthetic effect is somewhat novel.

Supposedly, this product is also contaminated/spiked with N-ethyl-beta-methyl-PEA which would also enjoy a longer half-life, and with greater CNS penetration.

And speaking of an anesthetic effect, the label indicates it contains N,N-diethyl-PEA, which should also possess anesthetic properties (i.e. dimethocaine/lidocaine). Keep in mind that blocking sodium channels is not exactly the safest mechanism for drugs which reach systemic circulation.
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I knew I wasn't crazy when my mouth would consistently go numb! Oddly enough, Superpump Max is the only other preworkout that makes my mouth numb. Go figure. So the PEAs would have a longer HL...but obviously the effects are different too, as this feels nothing like a traditional dose of PEA. Do you think the strong stimulation effect is from these ingredients?
 
madchemist said:
The half-life should be longer vs. regular PEA, albiet with less direct CNS penetration, and the anesthetic effect is somewhat novel.

Supposedly, this product is also contaminated/spiked with N-ethyl-beta-methyl-PEA which would also enjoy a longer half-life, and with greater CNS penetration.

And speaking of an anesthetic effect, the label indicates it contains N,N-diethyl-PEA, which should also possess anesthetic properties (i.e. dimethocaine/lidocaine). Keep in mind that blocking sodium channels is not exactly the safest mechanism for drugs which reach systemic circulation.
Click to expand...

It feels exactly the same as lidocaine. Quite disconcerting when you aren't expecting it.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
I knew I wasn't crazy when my mouth would consistently go numb! Oddly enough, Superpump Max is the only other preworkout that makes my mouth numb. Go figure. So the PEAs would have a longer HL...but obviously the effects are different too, as this feels nothing like a traditional dose of PEA. Do you think the strong stimulation effect is from these ingredients?
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bdcc said:
It feels exactly the same as lidocaine. Quite disconcerting when you aren't expecting it.
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Interesting. I have not noticed this at all after several tubs. You would think that if it were as substantial a LA effect as lidocaine then more users would be reporting the oral/pharyngeal numbness.

If what madchemist stated is true, cardiotoxicity could be a potential issue with this stuff.
 
quigs said:




Interesting. I have not noticed this at all after several tubs. You would think that if it were as substantial a LA effect as lidocaine then more users would be reporting the oral/pharyngeal numbness.

If what madchemist stated is true, cardiotoxicity could be a potential issue with this stuff.
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Cardio toxicity how? Not by any means saying your wrong ifs a genuine question as all of this stuff is interesting to me.
 
madchemist said:
The half-life should be longer vs. regular PEA, albiet with less direct CNS penetration, and the anesthetic effect is somewhat novel.

Supposedly, this product is also contaminated/spiked with N-ethyl-beta-methyl-PEA which would also enjoy a longer half-life, and with greater CNS penetration.

And speaking of an anesthetic effect, the label indicates it contains N,N-diethyl-PEA, which should also possess anesthetic properties (i.e. dimethocaine/lidocaine). Keep in mind that blocking sodium channels is not exactly the safest mechanism for drugs which reach systemic circulation.
Click to expand...

my testing of the stuff showed a peak that had a mass spectrum which looked like n,n-diethyl. nothing that looked like n-ethyl-beta-methyl
 
mr.cooper69 said:
I knew I wasn't crazy when my mouth would consistently go numb! Oddly enough, Superpump Max is the only other preworkout that makes my mouth numb. Go figure. So the PEAs would have a longer HL...but obviously the effects are different too, as this feels nothing like a traditional dose of PEA. Do you think the strong stimulation effect is from these ingredients?
Click to expand...

bdcc said:
It feels exactly the same as lidocaine. Quite disconcerting when you aren't expecting it.
Click to expand...

quigs said:




Interesting. I have not noticed this at all after several tubs. You would think that if it were as substantial a LA effect as lidocaine then more users would be reporting the oral/pharyngeal numbness.

If what madchemist stated is true, cardiotoxicity could be a potential issue with this stuff.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's because I'm used to just put the powder directly
down my throat and swallow it with a sip of water but I've never experienced
any mouth numbing feeling
 
AutoKal47 said:
Maybe it's because I'm used to just put the powder directly
down my throat and swallow it with a sip of water but I've never experienced
any mouth numbing feeling
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I have never experience that either. Had 1 scoop today.
 
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