DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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D3Baseball said:
I don't think he'll ever understand. He believes we should take everything companies say for face value -- working and being legal and being safe are not all synonymous. Like Pat said, if there are no rules it's easy to make a good preworkout.
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Thank you, Gandolf.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
Trust me southpaw, if i chose to use synthetic ingredients and disregarded listing them on the label I could make a comparable product with one hand tied behind my back
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Subbed. Shall I Paypal you the money?
 
Patrick Arnold said:
I have no interest in taking away products that are legitimate. I will be damned though if i have to work my ass off trying to make a legitimate product only to see others cheat their way to the top (not saying that is the case here, being theoretical). I will not keep my mouth shut and quietly fail

If you cannot understand that then good luck with your life. You will be a failure in the business world
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^^^
 
wow, southpaw is a DS shill or a complete idiot who doesnt understand.... he's like the "leave brittany alone manchick"... he can only be one or hte other.
 
StangBanger said:
wow, southpaw is a DS shill or a complete idiot who doesnt understand.... he's like the "leave brittany alone manchick"... he can only be one or hte other.
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there was a thread on bb.com where people were making fun of paris hilton (i think it was her, or it could have been brittany or whoever)

then chuck diesel comes on and attacks everyone for being haters on the poor girl. we are like "chuck, wtf?"
 
Angelbolic said:
So basically you have no problems ingesting and recommending a product that's probably spiked with multiple ingredients with no known safety profile 'just because it works'?
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On the idealogical argument here, well, that's what I got out of it.
 
Angelbolic said:
So basically you have no problems ingesting and recommending a product that's probably spiked with multiple ingredients with no known safety profile 'just because it works'?
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While I'm interested in knowing if that's the case out of curiosity AND because
I want to know what i'm taking, how many things we take that are not healthy?
I'm with shouthpaw here, I like the product and it makes my training (and consequently, life)
better, does it have side effects? Ok, I'd be interested in knowing them then, but most likely
I'd keep using it unless there's proof that is gonna kill me in 2 years or so..

Do I care if the product is damaging other companies sales? Hell no I couldn't care less

Do I care if the product is better than the rest because of a specific ingredient and that
ingredient happens to be "outlaw" but only because of some market technicality, bureaucracy
or whatever supplements regulation that has nothing to do with consumer safeness? No way.

Is this a selfish behavior? Sure it is, I care about me not sups companies
The people who's trying to take craze off the market are much worse, at least I take my product
and that's the end of it, they are actually trying to take away the *option* for me to use it or not.
Screw that
 
I think the point saying it was selfish was because this argument is based on the idea the product is tainted (or whatever word you want to use for this episode of events). Therefore wanting the product to stay is being selfish because it would let others continue buying something that was tainted just so you can have a good workout.

I was sent a tub from a good friend and it is potent stuff, very distinguishable. I would use it again but if it was tainted I would want people to know, this is the only honest thing to do, even if I like it.
 
If its a DMAA situation we'd feel different. Where a basically innocuous ingredient is banned somewhat arbitrarily. The fear here is the unknown.

Take amphetamines -- you'll feel good right away and possibly feel fine afterwards. But there are serious consequences that could follow way down the line.

This is why we aren't comfortable with the unknown because sometimes things feel safe but aren't.
 
southpaw23 said:
Because the end goal is get an effective product taken off the market and replace it with what exactly? So far no company has been innovative enough to making something better, much less comparable to Craze. That's just the plain truth.
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Nobody had a problem when it was AX's Slim Xtreme

D2footballjrc said:
Southpaw are you a DS rep? Just about every post you post is about Craze. Every post of yours since the second has been about craze and a good majority of those before as well. I don't mind if you are, I like craze. You just seem more than a fan.
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DS rep? No, SMF member extremely likely. DS uses them to ATTACK anyone that has anything negative to say about them while pimping the product everywhere.
 
So according to southpaw, I could put serious f*ckyouinthea$$deadin1year-carcinogens in the product, not list on the label, and f*ck anyone who wants to take it off the market?

yeah.. good logic.
 
AutoKal47 said:
While I'm interested in knowing if that's the case out of curiosity AND because
I want to know what i'm taking, how many things we take that are not healthy?
I'm with shouthpaw here, I like the product and it makes my training (and consequently, life)
better, does it have side effects? Ok, I'd be interested in knowing them then, but most likely
I'd keep using it unless there's proof that is gonna kill me in 2 years or so..

Do I care if the product is damaging other companies sales? Hell no I couldn't care less

Do I care if the product is better than the rest because of a specific ingredient and that
ingredient happens to be "outlaw" but only because of some market technicality, bureaucracy
or whatever supplements regulation that has nothing to do with consumer safeness? No way.

Is this a selfish behavior? Sure it is, I care about me not sups companies
The people who's trying to take craze off the market are much worse, at least I take my product
and that's the end of it, they are actually trying to take away the *option* for me to use it or not.
Screw that
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i wouldnt want to see the stuff be taken off the market for petty reasons, because everyones products could pretty much be taken off the market for petty reasons

I should mention that part of the motivation of me testing it is curiousity and if I figure out what makes it work and the ingredient(s) are legit then i may very likely then utilize that technology for my product. As far as I know there is no intellecutal property protection on anything in this stuff
 
mw1 said:
Nobody had a problem when it was AX's Slim Xtreme


DS rep? No, SMF member extremely likely. DS uses them to ATTACK anyone that has anything negative to say about them while pimping the product everywhere.
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what is smf?
 
3clipseGT said:
I took a UA hours after i ingested craze and was fine. I also took a home UA to see and did not test positive.

Also some people are comical who show up in a thread and are nobodies to this board and start calling people retards when there is no need.
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Glad to see u did a UA. I was reading this thinking the same thing. I get tested all the time and don't need to be worrying about something else. As soon as I get to a CPU your repped. This all should really enable repping lol.
 
Angelbolic said:
That's your personal choice and I'd actually agree with it if the ingredients were correctly labeled. In that case it's up to you to make a decision wether you take the gamble or not. In this case however, you can't make an educated decision at all because the ingredients are unknown. Maybe you still don't care because you love the product, but what if it was spiked with heroin and you took it for 6 months straight?
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Agree, and that's why I'm interested in knowing how this will end up.

Angelbolic said:
Protecting consumers from taking SPIKED supplements has nothing to do with consumer safeness? Come on now. We can argue all day long wether several parts of DSHEA are in the best interest of the consumer, but it should be clear that prohibiting companies from putting undeclared ingredients in their products is definetely one of them.
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Eh, kind of. If the ingredient is *unsafe*, then ok.
If the not listed ingredient is safe, then it has nothing to do.
As Patrick wrote some lines above replying/quoting me, if the product is taken off for petty reasons (that's what i meant
when i said bureaucracy/technicality etc..) that would be bs. Big time

Angelbolic said:
They're worse in your perspective because you love the product and fail to see their perspective. If I would have a company that's following all the rules and some competitor is trying to cut corners I'd be pissed too.
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No I do see their perspective, I just don't give a damn about it because I'm not a competitor.
I'm a customer, I'm the consumer, and I want to be able to chose if I want to use a product or not.
I don't want something I like to be pulled off the market because some other company ain't making enough money,
I don't care what the reason for that is, I don't want that to affect me because if the given company WILL make more money
with craze off the shelves is not gonna do any good to me.
This is *not* connected with the consumer safeness if you follow me, that matter is my (the consumer) choice,
sure I'd like all ingredients to be listed so i can actually make an educated decision, but also, I'm not even sure the stuff
I buy from the supermarket has everything listed on..
 
southpaw23 said:
Not at all. In fact I buy all my supps. If they're good, I'll say so, and if they aren't I'll do the same. I'm not a rep, nor have I ever been for any company. All I'm saying is don't be naive as to why you "think" this product is being tested. It's being tested because it's been a blockbuster since it came out of the gate, that goes for the effectiveness of the product, in addition to the the most important category...SALES.
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Haha, let's get real. It's a blockbuster because people like the high feeling it provides. People would be buying up Adderal or coke if it was sold over the counter in a workout supplement.
 
996ttelise said:
Haha, let's get real. It's a blockbuster because people like the high feeling it provides. People would be buying up Adderal or coke if it was sold over the counter in a workout supplement.
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It doesn't provide high feeling, at least not for me. I feel like I can go longer in the gym, some focus, but I can still be yawning and sleepy at times.

I really don't get what all the fuss is about. There are steroids on the market marketed as supplements and people go up in arms when FDA targets them, yet Craze gets attacked.

Anyway, hopefully companies bring out better products to bring veriaty to the market. I like Craze personally and will continue to use it until I find a better product.
 
fadi said:
It doesn't provide high feeling, at least not for me. I feel like I can go longer in the gym, some focus, but I can still be yawning and sleepy at times.

I really don't get what all the fuss is about. There are steroids on the market marketed as supplements and people go up in arms when FDA targets them, yet Craze gets attacked.

Anyway, hopefully companies bring out better products to bring veriaty to the market. I like Craze personally and will continue to use it until I find a better product.
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Def there's no high feeling whatsoever
 
Angelbolic said:
So basically you have no problems ingesting and recommending a product that's probably spiked with multiple ingredients with no known safety profile 'just because it works'?
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And you're inferring that based on what exactly? Because I won't buy into the frenzy that's being whipped up by certain individuals who have questionable motives for getting Craze taken off the market? THERE IS NO TANGIBLE PROOF YET OF ANY WRONGDOING.
 
AutoKal47 said:
No I do see their perspective, I just don't give a damn about it because I'm not a competitor.
I'm a customer, I'm the consumer, and I want to be able to chose if I want to use a product or not. n..
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well buddy you should care, because if the industry does not regulate itself uncle sam will come in and regulate it into the stone age
 
Patrick Arnold said:
well buddy you should care, because if the industry does not regulate itself uncle sam will come in and regulate it into the stone age
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I was thinking this exactly but was afraid to say it and get flamed. Glad you said it as I think you have a better flame shield then I have :-)
 
The conversation should remain a pragmatic one. Ideologically speaking people should be able to put anything in their bodies. Supplement companies should be able to use anything they want.

That said full disclosure should be there, further more, since their is a playing field laid out(right or wrong) companies should abide by the rules.

I am really enjoying the convo, and as a newb to these forms, I really appreciate people like PA who test products.
 
rob112 said:
The conversation should remain a pragmatic one. Ideologically speaking people should be able to put anything in their bodies. Supplement companies should be able to use anything they want.

That said full disclosure should be there, further more, since their is a playing field laid out(right or wrong) companies should abide by the rules.

I am really enjoying the convo, and as a newb to these forms, I really appreciate people like PA who test products.
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The world has never functioned well on Ideological ideas though. Also the problem with having open reigns to an extent is some supplement companies (not calling any out on this board) just throw whatever into their supplements and see what sticks. I mean look at all already underdosed products on the market. Do you really want them to have access to even more dangerous compounds. Now some supplement companies could handle, formulate, and bring amazing things to the market. The problem would be for every PA compound there would be a company like Sc***t who gets busted for bunk caffiene and then a lawsuit for saying they are using a type of creatine then the company of said creatine saying they are just using the name. If everyone could be trusted, laws and regulations would be a lot less strict.

I agree with full disclosure, if you look in the past, the lack of full disclosure has caused Uncle Sam to step in a few times and ruin things for all of us. (Not always a full disclosure issue, but there have been some in the past!)
 
D2footballjrc said:
The world has never functioned well on Ideological ideas though. Also the problem with having open reigns to an extent is some supplement companies (not calling any out on this board) just throw whatever into their supplements and see what sticks. I mean look at all already underdosed products on the market. Do you really want them to have access to even more dangerous compounds. Now some supplement companies could handle, formulate, and bring amazing things to the market. The problem would be for every PA compound there would be a company like Sc***t who gets busted for bunk caffiene and then a lawsuit for saying they are using a type of creatine then the company of said creatine saying they are just using the name. If everyone could be trusted, laws and regulations would be a lot less strict.

I agree with full disclosure, if you look in the past, the lack of full disclosure has caused Uncle Sam to step in a few times and ruin things for all of us. (Not always a full disclosure issue, but there have been some in the past!)
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Well said, and I agree completely. Instances like you refer to make me wonder about quality control. Said company makes bank at a store level, and they were fraudulent with an already inexpensive substance...but I digress.
 
i don't think everyone will agree on the same point because everyone has a different "level" there willing to go with supplements and chemicals. I'm personally the type thats never done drugs or anything like them and this bothers me that there might be something pretty intense (by my standards) in craze and if so i won't take it anymore. Some people are like f$@# it i wanna get big and have fun gimmie the roids and the cocaine too. those people are probably like "dam we go something that good enough to use and we might loose it because of this law bulls&^%t" so the way i see it is your never going to meet somewhere in the middle. For me i just wanna know whats in there so i can make my decision for me and you(everyone) can make your decision for you.
 
FL3X MAGNUM said:
It appears then, that this is in close relation to ecstasy?
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that little methyl coming off the carbon next to the nitrogen makes a night and day difference. the compound i found in craze has no such methyl. if it did then mr. cahill would be in a world of trouble!
 
southpaw23 said:
I find it questionable at best as to why said individuals can't spend more of their time and resources on making something comparable or better, rather than taking away another option for consumers. MAKE SOMETHING BETTER.
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They can only make something better if it also has non-dshea or illegal ingredients in it. It is like a juiced up bodybuilder competing against all natural athletes. Of course the guy on the gear says he isn't taking anything but protein and creatine.....If they don't test the competitors before entering the contest nobody will ever know if he was/is on gear and he has/had an unfair advantage.
 
T-Bone said:
They can only make something better if it also has non-dshea or illegal ingredients in it. It is like a juiced up bodybuilder competing against all natural athletes. Of course the guy on the gear says he isn't taking anything but protein and creatine.....If they don't test the competitors before entering the contest nobody will ever know if he was/is on gear and he has/had an unfair advantage.
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Right.
 
I haven't skimmed through this whole thread, but it looks like the substance in question is PEA related? They better not take PEA off the market!!

Designer stims, I could care less about though, but pure PEA is the goods in terms of nootropics.
 
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