Dr. D... your thoughts on TUDCA for AAS/DS use

Rhadam

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What are your thoughts on Tauroursodeoxycholic acid (TUDCA)? Most of us here take NaC for liver support, but TUDCA seems to be a lot less talked about, if ever. Last i checked, it seemed as though the verdict was that it was in a grey area. Maybe you could shed some light on this? Much appreciated.
 

PuZo

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In for info as well.
 
Whacked

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Perhaps worthy of adding to this discussion is Tumeric/Curcumin which also stimulates bile production (same mechanism TUDCA utilizes to assist with liver detox)....with MANY more health benefits to boot!

TUDCA supports bile flow to remove these toxic metabolites from the liver. In this way, TUDCA protects you against cholestasis to ensure cholesterol metabolism. Because TUDCA ensures that you’re breaking down fat, it helps to prevent fatty liver disease. It also protects the liver against cell death. Not only do you get liver protection, but you’ve got a built in cholesterol fighter when you take TUDCA.
As an anti-oxidant turmeric works similarly to vitamins C and E, indeed turmeric is said to be as powerful an anti-oxidant as those two vitamins. As such it provides excellent protection to our cells against damage caused by oxygen carrying free radicals. In conjunction with the oil curcumin, turmeric acts as an anti-inflammatory if applied as a poultice or if used orally. The combined effects of being an anti-inflammatory and an anti-oxidant mean that it will also increase the secretion of bile and the production of enzymes in the liver. Subsequently, it will help to protect the liver from a build up of toxins. Finally the curcumin associated with turmeric is thought to stimulate the body’s natural production of cortisone from the adrenal glands, which will generally help the body to self-heal.
 

Neoamerican

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TUDAC is a staple 4 every 17a cycle IMO
Liver enxymes stay close to baseline even with heavy oral use. And the taurine molecule seems to help the B pumps
 
TomGreen

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glad i came across this post, was worried about my liver and was thnking of getting this but wasnt sure. im gonna order some for sure now. im running promag and i think this will be a good addition
 
Whacked

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Don't count Milk Thistle out just yet...

Hepatoprotective effects of silymarin in androgenic-anabolic steroid-induced liver damage.

Abstract


INTRODUCTION:

The use and abuse of anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) commonly induces liver damage.
MATERIAL AND METHODS:

The study included 40 male Wistar rats, divided into 4 groups of 10 rats each. Animals in the first experimental group (M), were subjected to progressive systematic forced swimming test, 5 days a week, during 8 weeks. Animals in this group were treated with AAS methandienone, 2 mg/kg BW/day, per os, before swimming, 5 d/w for 8 weeks. After swimming, animals were given three times more food than the laboratory animals of the same age and kind. Animals in the second group (M+S), were subjected to progressive forced swimming test, 5 d/w 8 weeks. Animals in this group were treated with methandienone equally as the experimental group M and received the same amount of food. Apart from that, they received silymarin 20 mg/kg BW/day. Animals in the third group (K), represented the control group, which was neither subjected to swimming test, nor treated with methandienone or silymarin. Animals in this group received the same amount of food as animals in groups M and M+S. Animals in the fourth group (C), also represented a control. This group was not exercised nor treated, and animals received a standard amount of food for laboratory animals of this kind and age. Quantitative analysis of obtained hemataxylin-eosin, periodic acid shift and enzymohistochemical preparations was processed using Digital Image Analysis System: Microimage 3.0.
RESULTS:

It was established that processes in the nuclei of animals in groups M and K were significantly more intensive (p<0.001) in relation to groups M+S and C. The investigation of glycogen showed significantly higher density in the cells of groups M and M+S in comparison to groups K and C. Also, there was a significant difference between groups M+S and M. Density of enzyme activity of glutamate dehydrogenase in hepatocytes of animals in the group M+S was significantly higher in relation to the remaining three groups. A statistically significant difference was not found in enzyme activity of succinate dehydrogenase and lactate dehydrogenase.
DISCUSSION:

In cell nuclei of animals in the experimental group M, in the absence of silymarin effect, methandienone causes damages which induce regenerative processes and in this way increase high intensity activity. Silymarin significantly increases the glycogen density in hepatocytes. Increased activities of GDH are attributed to cell vitality.
CONCLUSION:

The present results show hepatoprotective effects of silymarin in androgenic-anabolic steroid induced liver damage.

PMID:15510919
 
TomGreen

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Don't count Milk Thistle out just yet...
i could feel the strain that my oh was causing on my liver so i ordered the TUDCA, but i also started taking the ai life support with my first and last meal and an extra milk thistle mid day. you cant really ever tell by feel but it definately seems to be working well. once i get the TUDCA can i just take them with my life supoirt in the morning and at night? that was my plan
 
Rhadam

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I've always been very happy with Liver Assist XT from SNS, NAC and milk thistle. But for stronger cycles i was really looking in to TUDCA. Seems as though now it's basically gone off the net. Can't find it anywhere.
 
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PM's ;)
 
Rhadam

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We are having an UDCA/TUDCA discussion over on the anabolic board, some great stuff going on there.'

I didn't realize that Antaeus Labs had a prodcut with TUDCA and PPC in it, looks good if those two ingredients synergistically work together. TUDCA dose for 2 caps of Aegis is only 250mg, which is low, unless PPC really helps out.

UDCA seems obtainable from those pharma clone sites, but i've always stayed away from them.
 
3clipseGT

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We are having an UDCA/TUDCA discussion over on the anabolic board, some great stuff going on there.'

I didn't realize that Antaeus Labs had a prodcut with TUDCA and PPC in it, looks good if those two ingredients synergistically work together. TUDCA dose for 2 caps of Aegis is only 250mg, which is low, unless PPC really helps out.

UDCA seems obtainable from those pharma clone sites, but i've always stayed away from them.
Thats why they put 120 caps in a bottle. So you get 500mgs of the TUDCA a day.
 
Rhadam

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Thats why they put 120 caps in a bottle. So you get 500mgs of the TUDCA a day.
Odd. The site i ordered from (legit site) has is mis-labeled then. Saw 60 caps per bottle. This is fantastic news.
 
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n87

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He is risen indeed! :)

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
Whacked

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..... :D

Where is DrD?
 

dinoiii

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I think it is promising; however, TUDCA is frankly underdosed in most supplements. Best liver effects are seen in GRAM dosages; especially acutely where there is a significant dose-response relationship (and estimated to only begin efficacy at greater than 11mg/kg or - for ease - the average 220 lb bodybuilder or 100 kg for ease needs about 1.1 grams acutely) for hepatobiliary disease like cholestatic pictures of C17-alpha-alkylated PH/PS/DS/AAS.

From a chronic perspective (where some people take orals - defined as probably greater than 8-12 weeks),

A 2 gram per day (in two divided 1gram doses) trial was just concluded this month...http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00877604

Why? Because smaller doses were simply ineffective.

So - if not cost-prohibitory to you...then why not? But I would make certain that most on this board are getting anywhere from 1-2 grams per day orally if you chose to embark upon this as your hepatoprotectant of choice.


D_
 
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haha!!!!!!!!!!! I can only imagine

GREAT to see you back Doc!
 
AaronJP1

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Im going to give it a shot... going to run it along side my organ shield...
$40 to save my liver is pennies in my eyes...
 
dumbhick3

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TUDCA + NAC + silymarin
Ursodiol 300mg BID + Aegis 2 caps BID + 1 Gallon H20 a day = I should have just bought more Urso...

Maybe I will half my Ursodiol dose and stack with Aegis since I am the proud owner of an opened bottle. I do commend Antaeus for making a not complete garbage liver support supplement (that's a long list), but UDCA 600mg/day is hard to beat. Let the body conjugate it with taurine or glycine and save money. Or...

Test IM + Tren IM + hCG + Aromasin = orals not necessary, nor liver support (IME)
 
HereToStudy

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Ursodiol 300mg BID + Aegis 2 caps BID + 1 Gallon H20 a day = I should have just bought more Urso...

Maybe I will half my Ursodiol dose and stack with Aegis since I am the proud owner of an opened bottle. I do commend Antaeus for making a not complete garbage liver support supplement (that's a long list), but UDCA 600mg/day is hard to beat. Let the body conjugate it with taurine or glycine and save money. Or...

Test IM + Tren IM + hCG + Aromasin = orals not necessary, nor liver support (IME)
Ursodiol has been my choice as of late as well, and I really don't see a reason to choose otherwise.
 
dumbhick3

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Ursodiol has been my choice as of late as well, and I really don't see a reason to choose otherwise.
Having tried them all but Aegis solo, and with bloodwork for all, I have to agree.

@H2S-if Aegis + 600mg/day of UDCA adds additional value by way of keeping my TA's in the sub 3x ULN range, I'd pay the extra cost. I've thought of trying 900mg/day of UDCA, but I think side effects may become more of an issue at that level, and that is pushing $2 a day as well. Most seem to be able to gobble down Superdrol and similar without any issues though, so UDCA solo for most would likely be the best choice for 17aa collateral damage control (HDL notwithstanding).

Ursodiol - less filler, tastes great* :D

*I lied
 
3clipseGT

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Ursodiol has been my choice as of late as well, and I really don't see a reason to choose otherwise.
Ursodiol? Havnt heard of that, i 'spose ill have to look it up.
 
HereToStudy

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Having tried them all but Aegis solo, and with bloodwork for all, I have to agree.

@H2S-if Aegis + 600mg/day of UDCA adds additional value by way of keeping my TA's in the sub 3x ULN range, I'd pay the extra cost. I've thought of trying 900mg/day of UDCA, but I think side effects may become more of an issue at that level, and that is pushing $2 a day as well. Most seem to be able to gobble down Superdrol and similar without any issues though, so UDCA solo for most would likely be the best choice for 17aa collateral damage control (HDL notwithstanding).

Ursodiol - less filler, tastes great* :D

*I lied
Agreed on all fronts, except for the bolded lie, lol. My first run of it utilized an RC preparation in powder form, caps are definitely more appropriate...
 
AaronJP1

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What sides from UDCA & TUDCA?
 

dinoiii

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so what is the most effective liver protectant product in your view?
If this was directed at me and we are really talking "any expense;" the versatility of that added by SAMe + BCAAs is surely superior and you get MUCH, MUCH more collective efficacy on other pathologies during an oral C17AA cycle. Nothing wrong, however, with NAC (although studies haven't really shown a lot of ORAL superiority and efficacy for things outside of tylenol toxicity when really looking at toxicology data) or Milk Thistle (provided you can actually get a good Silymarin concentration / labeling is incorrect in 95% of cases). I also am a fan of LOLA, but good quantities of this can also get expensive.


D_
 
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stankyleg

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If this was directed at me and we are really talking "any expense;" the versatility of that added by SAMe + BCAAs is surely superior and you get MUCH, MUCH more collective efficacy on other pathologies during an oral C17AA cycle. Nothing wrong, however, with NAC (although studies haven't really shown a lot of ORAL superiority and efficacy for things outside of tylenol toxicity when really looking at toxicology data) or Milk Thistle (provided you can actually get a good Silymarin concentration / labeling is incorrect in 95% of cases). I also am a fan of LOLA, but good quantities of this can also get expensive.

D_
What kind of SAMe dosage are we talkin?
 
muad33b

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What kind of SAMe dosage are we talkin?
I'll help D_ out as I'm sure he's pretty busy as usual. write up: http://bit.ly/KOvGxF dosage: http://bit.ly/NukQUS Couldn't find the link to where he tested brands, but I know this is on the list, it's what I take, and honestly, I just take 1 pill/day (400mg active) pretty much all the time (on, pct, whenever) for all the benefits, since it's so cheap. Now, I honestly never worry about my liver, even run 8 wk long double methyls are strong dosages and my values always come back right in range whenver I check. I had my father dose 2/day (800mg active) for a month after he got diagnosed with a fatty liver from drinking too much, and his fatty liver went away and his values went back in range... and while he cut back I think, he didn't even quit drinking. So yea, I'm a SAMe fan.
 
TomGreen

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im starting my aegis a week before i start my pmag. Should i not also supplement AI lifesupport (which has nac and milk thistle)? i wasnt sure if itd be too much and should just take a aegis.
 
Whacked

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If you're running a barbaric cycle, I would ad it. If not, it's probably overkill but it's going to hurt anything. Perhaps you gain a little better peace of mind, some added detox properties and sme anti-oxidant activity as well.
 

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What kind of SAMe dosage are we talkin?

I'm not sure if people caught the links because of the foreign forum **** - age, but

400mg SAMe (not binding component) dosed about 4 hours from C-17 alpha-alkylated oral agents.

In other words...a dosing schedule might look like this:

6 am - C17 Alpha-alkylated Agent
10 am - SAMe dose 1
2 pm - C17 Alpha-alkylated Agent
6pm - SAMe dose 2

For anyone that thinks this is too complex; abort use of these agents and deal with the fact that you are not ready.


D_
 
Whacked

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LOL :p

For anyone that thinks this is too complex; abort use of these agents and deal with the fact that you are not ready.


D_
 
Rhadam

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Could we try to get the links for SAMe re-posted? Would really like to read them. Could try putting them in to ******* which would then copy over to this forum instead of the link being censored.
 
muad33b

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Could we try to get the links for SAMe re-posted? Would really like to read them. Could try putting them in to ******* which would then copy over to this forum instead of the link being censored.
post edited to use shortened url's that aren't getting *****ed - that said if you want to read up on D_'s writings, I would peruse the rest of that subsection.
 
muad33b

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I'm not sure if people caught the links because of the foreign forum **** - age, but

400mg SAMe (not binding component) dosed about 4 hours from C-17 alpha-alkylated oral agents.

In other words...a dosing schedule might look like this:

6 am - C17 Alpha-alkylated Agent
10 am - SAMe dose 1
2 pm - C17 Alpha-alkylated Agent
6pm - SAMe dose 2

For anyone that thinks this is too complex; abort use of these agents and deal with the fact that you are not ready.


D_
heya D_, long time... Question for you on this... I used to go to the trouble of separating the doses in time, but I've gotten lazy lately (as I take Doctor's Best SAME 400mg active - one of your approved brands every day, year round now) while on-cycle as I take vitamins/pills 3x/day and when dosing orals 3x/day I started just throwing SAMe in with one of those doses - I know it's bad, but sometimes when there's so many rules to follow, I forget what things are important. This has reminded me to separate the dosages of heptaprotectants and C17 orals, but I went and looked and couldn't find a good answer as to "why" - and knowing why will help me keep this good habit in place - is this to prevent the SAMe from "strengthening" the liver such that less active steroid makes it past it's enzymes, or to make the SAMe more effective in repairing the liver during a time when there's less "stress" on it? i.e. when making this mistake am I making my oral less effective or my SAMe less effective? I know these are laymen's terms/ideas, I'm just trying to get a feeling of what's been happening when I haven't been following this rule. Thanks.
 
lboston

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heya D_, long time... Question for you on this... I used to go to the trouble of separating the doses in time, but I've gotten lazy lately (as I take Doctor's Best SAME 400mg active - one of your approved brands every day, year round now) while on-cycle as I take vitamins/pills 3x/day and when dosing orals 3x/day I started just throwing SAMe in with one of those doses - I know it's bad, but sometimes when there's so many rules to follow, I forget what things are important. This has reminded me to separate the dosages of heptaprotectants and C17 orals, but I went and looked and couldn't find a good answer as to "why" - and knowing why will help me keep this good habit in place - is this to prevent the SAMe from "strengthening" the liver such that less active steroid makes it past it's enzymes, or to make the SAMe more effective in repairing the liver during a time when there's less "stress" on it? i.e. when making this mistake am I making my oral less effective or my SAMe less effective? I know these are laymen's terms/ideas, I'm just trying to get a feeling of what's been happening when I haven't been following this rule. Thanks.
Bump, as I'm interested as well...
 

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