D Aspartic Acid & Negative side effects
- Thread starter StackedCop
- Start date
islandmagic
Well-known member
so now the question is Lit- safe-to use? I havebeen following along JJ thank you....
bdcc
Legend
I took DAA from NP after weighing up the excitotoxicity risks and thought I would give it a go at the lowest dosage.
I had stomach pain and diarrhoea, tried splitting the dosage, taking with food etc. After three days or so I stopped usage and sold it.
In retrospect the possible risks on the brain are not worth it for me and I wouldn't take it again and avoid formulas with it in.
StackedCop
Well-known member
^^x2
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
This is exactly my stance!
JJ - Your questions are valid questions, and ones you will not find a qualified answer for. You will find research on performance of DAA, but safety is lacking. As I said, we are elevating a known exitotoxin with the the severe ability to damage myelin. You will not find safety thresholds because everyone is different, especially with regard to brain chemistry. The problem with everyone's acute idea of saying "I was fine after two months of use" means nothing because the damage wouldn't show up till later in life with brain related disease. Alzheimers? Dimentia? Parkinsons? Who knows. But what I do know is all of these neural diseases are on the rise at a rapid pace, all that with the prior generations not touching stuff like this.
Everyone is free to do as they wish, it is your body.
Mrodz
Active member
I got the e-mail rolling along when I read Judo's post over at stakedcops Log and I have an answer now, gonna let u guys have it out on that one, here goes
"Questions 1-3
These cannot be quantitatively answered because there is no negative control, and in order to make even qualitative inferences, one would need to take a biopsy of the brain or testicles. (be my guest, somebody might pay you for the study)
As far as I can tell, DAA almost exclusively promotes the release of GnRH (Gonadotropin-releasing hormone) which is responsible for LH (Luteinizing-hormone) production which is THEN responsible for steroidogenesis. With all these steps and with all the communication that has to occur, I doubt anything will get accumulated to astronomical levels unless somebody has a medical condition.
Questions 4 and 5
If you are talking about calcium influx into a neuron then the limiting factor will become glycine, the ion channel is BOTH ligand and voltage dependent.
NMDA would have to bind AND glycine for calcium to enter the neuron, so even if there is an excess of NDMA it won't effect calcium ion influx into the cell unless there is also an excess of glycine as well. Glycine does not act exclusively as a neurotransmitter/hormone like DAA does so it will not necessarily accumulate in the brain more if you eat a ton of glycine.
Secondly, the channel is voltage dependent, so if the charge inside the neuron reaches a certain point due to calcium buildup there will be a repulsion effect (think of sticking the same pole of two magnets together)
I will say this.
Since DAA is not active directly and must be metabolized, the body's negative feedback system will likely kick in before anything accumulates to dangerous levels.
I hope this covers the information you wanted to cover."
I have been sitting on my butt reading and reading for quite awhile on all sorts of aspartame and glutamate and what nots (Dolly Parton's movie 9-5 playing n the background :/ .....twice) and i havent been thrown off of having my two packets of sweetener in the morning yet.
I have found on my own research, (even researching in Italian) a lot of evidence that back up the claims on the increased production of testosterone and it is used in Italy for fertility treatments. The truth I've seen is there seems to be a lot of info out there that verifies it really does what it's being marketed for in the supps industry and not much research on the negative effects although it does seem to be riding on the research done on aspartame.
this is me, I'm like u guys, I do bodywork not a scientist.
Now I've always had some ideas on the "increase" in neurological disorders (the quotation isn't because I don't believe it, it's because I haven't read up on like per capita or anything, so I'm not sure on it, or at least I haven't been convinced yet either way, but i will read up...anyway)
alleged causes:
plastic bowls, pill containers and water bottles etc... (basically a lot of plastic stuff)
tampons
fluorescent lights
wireless devices
*sunblock may cause chemical cancer
ok any way lots of stuff.....
Now I have no idea which way this goes in terms of the current discussion LOL but u know it's info that's out there.
I'm gonna stay away from google for awhile
well I'm sure more questions will pop up so lets keep reading
BurghHardcore
Well-known member
What is everyone's thoughts with Agmatine then? If I recall correctly Agmatine is a NMDA antagonist right? So basically it's doing the opposite of what DAA is doing. I can't imagine that's a good thing either.
TheLastRonin
Active member
I have used it 3 times so far. Once for a month bulk, once with pills and currently bulk 3 grams a day. I have never noticed any adverse effects. I do notice higher testosterone like sides(positive). I enjoy it and will keep using it.
bluehealer
Active member
I got the e-mail rolling along when I read Judo's post over at stakedcops Log and I have an answer now, gonna let u guys have it out on that one, here goes
"Questions 1-3
These cannot be quantitatively answered because there is no negative control, and in order to make even qualitative inferences, one would need to take a biopsy of the brain or testicles. (be my guest, somebody might pay you for the study)
As far as I can tell, DAA almost exclusively promotes the release of GnRH (Gonadotropin-releasing hormone) which is responsible for LH (Luteinizing-hormone) production which is THEN responsible for steroidogenesis. With all these steps and with all the communication that has to occur, I doubt anything will get accumulated to astronomical levels unless somebody has a medical condition.
Questions 4 and 5
If you are talking about calcium influx into a neuron then the limiting factor will become glycine, the ion channel is BOTH ligand and voltage dependent.
NMDA would have to bind AND glycine for calcium to enter the neuron, so even if there is an excess of NDMA it won't effect calcium ion influx into the cell unless there is also an excess of glycine as well. Glycine does not act exclusively as a neurotransmitter/hormone like DAA does so it will not necessarily accumulate in the brain more if you eat a ton of glycine.
Secondly, the channel is voltage dependent, so if the charge inside the neuron reaches a certain point due to calcium buildup there will be a repulsion effect (think of sticking the same pole of two magnets together)
I will say this.
Since DAA is not active directly and must be metabolized, the body's negative feedback system will likely kick in before anything accumulates to dangerous levels.
I hope this covers the information you wanted to cover."
I have been sitting on my butt reading and reading for quite awhile on all sorts of aspartame and glutamate and what nots (Dolly Parton's movie 9-5 playing n the background :/ .....twice) and i havent been thrown off of having my two packets of sweetener in the morning yet.
I have found on my own research, (even researching in Italian) a lot of evidence that back up the claims on the increased production of testosterone and it is used in Italy for fertility treatments. The truth I've seen is there seems to be a lot of info out there that verifies it really does what it's being marketed for in the supps industry and not much research on the negative effects although it does seem to be riding on the research done on aspartame.
this is me, I'm like u guys, I do bodywork not a scientist.
Now I've always had some ideas on the "increase" in neurological disorders (the quotation isn't because I don't believe it, it's because I haven't read up on like per capita or anything, so I'm not sure on it, or at least I haven't been convinced yet either way, but i will read up...anyway)
alleged causes:
plastic bowls, pill containers and water bottles etc... (basically a lot of plastic stuff)
tampons
fluorescent lights
wireless devices
*sunblock may cause chemical cancer
ok any way lots of stuff.....
Now I have no idea which way this goes in terms of the current discussion LOL but u know it's info that's out there.
I'm gonna stay away from google for awhile
well I'm sure more questions will pop up so lets keep reading
So basically we still don't know if it is safe or not.
Edit: Repped for your work smallfry.
hugeswole
Member
About 3 weeks in on PCT. About the same results.
bubsnt3
Member
Not here.. I have never had a problem with anything I eat or drink.. Nor some very questionable substances I have taken.. Although 10 days on DAA made me feel like I had been binging all night..
Young Gotti
Well-known member
am i the only one who didn't get jack from daa.....i didn't feel better, i didn't see any bb gains, balls didn't swell....the best part of the stuff was it tasted awesome for a bulk supplement
bubsnt3
Member
Can I just get some clarification also here.. Who said that the test boosting activity of DAA was due to its conversion to NMDA and it's activity on that receptor? Or is that theorized? I looked through the whole test and didn't see that information implied anywhere.. Although it was stated that some was converted to NMDA..
Invalid Link Removed
Here we demonstrated that D-aspartic acid, which occurs as a physiological compound in the mammalian pituitary and testis, has a role in the regulation of the release and synthesis of LH and testosterone. In humans and rats, sodium D-Asp treatment enhances the release of LH and testosterone. The experiments that we carried out on rats have permitted us to understand that this amino acid regulates the synthesis of LH and testosterone in the pituitary and the testis respectively. This action is mediated in the pituitary by cGMP and in the testis by cAMP, which act as the second messengers in the signal transduction in the pituitary and testes respectively. The pituitary and testis possesses a D-Aspartate racemase, which provides the necessary production of D-Asp.
Invalid Link Removed
Here we demonstrated that D-aspartic acid, which occurs as a physiological compound in the mammalian pituitary and testis, has a role in the regulation of the release and synthesis of LH and testosterone. In humans and rats, sodium D-Asp treatment enhances the release of LH and testosterone. The experiments that we carried out on rats have permitted us to understand that this amino acid regulates the synthesis of LH and testosterone in the pituitary and the testis respectively. This action is mediated in the pituitary by cGMP and in the testis by cAMP, which act as the second messengers in the signal transduction in the pituitary and testes respectively. The pituitary and testis possesses a D-Aspartate racemase, which provides the necessary production of D-Asp.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Yeah, aspartic acids have a sweet taste.
Studies are showing that it increases testosterone by about a third. What sort of gains were you expecting from daa?
thebigt
Legend
at what dose and after how long. also how long will this last after stopping, plus will it put you in the negative after. the study i saw was based on 3 gm for 12 days, will higher dose and longer use increase or decrease effect. mostly i am concerned about what happens after taking-will it continue to keep test level raised for a significant amount of time, or will test levels drop to lower than before using level.
i had great bb'ing effect from daa, strength and appetite both went way up-less than when i started test cyp but in the ballpark. difference was libido tanked.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Now we're getting into the complexities of new product development.
The benefits of early acceptence are to obtain the edge from a new product, the risk are the limited research on long-term use.
While your questions are valid, they're expensive to verify.
I would imagine test levels increase slowly, then rapidly, then begin to level off, and slowly start to wain with continued usage. This would require a lot of really expensive blood tests. Usually in doing a clinical study, the results are compromised by limited funds. There's an order of operations these tend to follow. You can see the same trend with creatine monohydrate in the 90's. First it's a matter of determining if the product does anything. When this is accomplished, then things progress to determine long-term use.
thebigt
Legend
my biggest concern is does test levels fall off the chart after using. lol-do you need a pct for daa?
StackedCop
Well-known member
If I recall grambo had bloods and said his test levels were normal after use. I'm not 100% sure but I was using 6 grams for a month and stopped once I read all the **** about NMDA but I kept taking my 2 erase. Can't be sure without bloods but my lady poker works fine still. I miss the every lasting sexual desire daa gave me... I still have a huge appetite for woman but man I was unreal while I daa!!
jaydollars
Well-known member
Well I was planning on running DAA in my summer cut, very happy I found this thread the knowledge dropped has been awesome, now I will not be running DAA, sucks too because it works but I'm not wanting to mess with my brain, its already unstable enough
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
The mechanism seems a bit indirect to cause significant negative feedback on a single outlet. When feedback happens over so many iterations, it takes a long time for the signal to get back to the source, and by that point it's usually pretty muffled. Kind of like when you were 6 and played the game "telephone".
My guess is that the natural formation from the L-isomer isn't all too significant. Too pick up the slack, you probably have a high receptor density, and thus the capacity for more more activation through external DAA supplementing.
thebigt
Legend
thanks...i think.:think:
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
In all fairness, on a molar basis, 3g of DAA is equal to 3.8g of MSG.
I'm not sure what that converts to in terms of packages of Top Ramen.
CobbledPath
Member
I started getting really bad anxiety on DAA and I've never had it before.. I've since stopped but am still getting it, but noticeably less often.. I don't suggest DAA is solely to blame for this, however it is interesting that it's declined since I stopped taking it.
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
So to sum up what I've read thus far. DAA has been shown to increase test in in vivo studies, but nobody can produce a single study showing this excitotoxicity that some are stating as "fact." Please, if you have a study, post it, otherwise that is worse than bro science...it's bad science.
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
Anxiety can indeed be caused by activation of the NMDA receptor, which is why supplementing with Magnesium (which blocks the channel) can help aleviate anxiety symptoms. Of course, using DAA and Mg together would defeat the purpose of each, so if you're having anxiety issues, I wouldn't use DAA.
bubsnt3
Member
It is actually good science. No studies have been performed for the safety in humans.. DAA is a PROVEN EXITOTOXIN with agonist activity at the NMDA receptor.. And NMDA toxicity is not someones theory but proven science.. You are saying to ignore both anecdotal reports and available scientific literature because it is not "fact." That is rediculous when this substance has never been tested for it's toxicity in humans.. That is like saying taking the proline analog that was in Slim Xtreme is safe because noone has proof that the specific proline analog is neorotoxic.. Although 2DPMP is and they are as close as two sides of the same coin.. If you are basing your faith in the studies or information that supplement companies produce you are a retard.
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
The amino acid, D-aspartate, exists in the mammalian brain and is an agonist at the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) subtype of ionotropic glutamate receptors.
Invalid Link Removed
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Beat me to it. DAA also converts to N-Methyl-D-Asparate through SAMe methyl-transferese.
Young Gotti
Well-known member
just expected to see some of the stuff i was reading in reviews.....alpha male feeling, overall well being increased, leaning and hardening, possibly some strength gains
edvanp
Active member
I've run DAA on 3 seperate occasions. I've used bulk from NP & TCF-1. Minimum run was 2 weeks, max was a month. Each time I've noticed the following:
Positives:
-Better workouts & recovery
-More of an "alpha male" mentality when working out
Negatives
-dull headache
-sleep wasn't as sound or as good as it normally is
-bloating. I seem to hold water when taking it
-mood is off just a bit
Does it work? I think it does raise "T" levels for me. I do get some acne on my back but I didn't experience any crazy rise in libido though.
Positives:
-Better workouts & recovery
-More of an "alpha male" mentality when working out
Negatives
-dull headache
-sleep wasn't as sound or as good as it normally is
-bloating. I seem to hold water when taking it
-mood is off just a bit
Does it work? I think it does raise "T" levels for me. I do get some acne on my back but I didn't experience any crazy rise in libido though.
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
Your first citation is a study in the slice which they intentionally use a large amount of NMDA, NOT DAA to lesion the cells in their study. This is common practice and is not proof in any way, shape or form. The second citation is wikipedia...shooting that one down is too easy.
Your third citation shows that DAA is an agonist of NMDA, BUT never once shows it to be excitotoxic. Just because something is an agonist, does not make it excitotoxic! DAA is a precursor to the biosynthesis of NMDA, but even that does not mean it will lead to excitoxicity. If any compound in use today has been shown to have excitotoxic properties, it is nitric oxide, but even that is not always the case and the mass amounts of arginine you would need to ingest to actually make this possible across the blood brain barrier make it a moot point.
You're talking about endogenous neurotransmitters in relation to an event like excitotoxicty which requires a unique set of circumstances to occur. The simple act of increasing neurotransmission will not cause excitotoxicity.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to keep you honest because I keep seeing this said with no evidence. So I will repeat my challenge. Can anybody show a single in vivo study where DAA causes excitotoxicity?
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
And just to address this direct attack on me. I'm asking an honest question as somebody that has a PhD in neuroscience. I do not work for or rep any company nor do I believe anything that anybody says without seeing studies that back it up. So I find your accusation of me being a "retard" to be quite funny and await you actually addressing my question.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
I do not personally care for attacks as such, but please spare us your E-Resume.
All the science leads to what has been stated, being a neuroscientist I would assume you would provide a word of caution given the facts presented. As I have yet to see you provide in vivo studies proving to the contrary I can only assume you have some vested interest, even after the aforementioned statement. In our PM you even agreed with me about DAA converting to N-Methyl-D-Aspartate, but then gave a "Yes, but" that something that is a known excitotoxin is no long an excitotoxin in this instance?!
As a neuroscientiest I would expect you to err on the side of caution. Seems incongruous to your self proclaimed profession.
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
I have no vested interest and will not be pulled into a name calling match as you have now jumped on board with that one. I have NOT said that DAA is completely safe and everybody should use it.
This is real easy and let me talk slow so even my "retard" brain can keep up. Can anybody show one single study where DAA causes excitotoxicity?
I'm asking for my own personal knowledge and don't care if the study was performed in humans, rats or trees. Just one!
bubsnt3
Member
Sorry, I don't mean to sound rude.. But having a PhD means no more than you went to school.. Unfortunatly that doesn't mean you have a brain.. That is why companies like Google do IQ tests before hiring people.. Sorry if I am not impressed.. I am an engineer and have a masters degree, does that somehow validate my points more??
The above studies I posted show that DAA is an NMDA agonist itself, is converted to NMDA, and that excesive NMDA stimulation is excitotoxic.. Until some studies are done on humans I will draw my own conclusions based on the available scientific literature..
bubsnt3
Member
That is like saying "can you show me one study that shows neorotoxicity using Methylenedioxypyrovalerone." No studies have been completed; however, beings it is a norepinephrine-dopamine reuptake inhibitor we can gather that excesive use is going to produce effects similar to Ritalin, Adderall, etc..
You have not posted any studies to the contrary and all scientific literature points in the opposite direction so until you produce some safety studies you really have no point.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Actually if you reread my post I did not call you a name. Every PM, and now every post you keep stating you have a Ph.D in neuroscience and just so happen to be a researcher in that field. Which is quite convenient in this circumstance. All due respect but I do not see to many Ph.D visiting a site named AnabolicMinds, nor have the respectful time to do so at 9:30am (CST) on a Friday. Do we really need to post the numerous studies showing N-Methyl-D-A is an excitotoxin? Which DAA converts to, but somehow it is not an excitotoxin any longer?
If I was so far off base you wouldn't get so defensive and begin providing studies to the contrary.
bubsnt3
Member
Honesly noone is saying not to use DAA. I think we are just trying to educate people so that they can make an informed decision on use and possible risks.. Methamphetamine is neorotoxic but some people use it for years and have no long term side effects.. Others do.
I believe that this thread is about exposing potential effects so that users can make their own decision on the benefits/risk.. Honestly, the test boost that has been shown is hardly enough to produce effects beyond what an AI would. AI tests showed test was raised far beyond what DAA does and there are not the same exitotoxic risks involved.
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
The fact that I study glutamatergic neurotransmission every single day is exactly why I am taking the time to address this issue. Just because I do have a PhD does not make my opinions any more valid than yours and I did not state that ever for that intention. Opinions are opinions and your opinion is that I'm a liar and that a straw man debate will somehow prove your point rather than answering my question. So, let me leave on this.
1) I never once said DAA is safe or should be used by anybody
2) I never once said DAA does increase test levels and in fact I have yet to see convincing evdidence that it does (those boar testicle studies do little to convince me)
3) I simply asked if DAA has been shown to cause excitotoxicity because I looked and could not find a single study and thought perhaps you all could point me in the direction of one
4) When answered with studies that did not actually answer my question, I said why they did not and asked again
So everybody have a wonderful day. I need to get back to my imaginary job with my imaginary degree.
StackedCop
Well-known member
I agree
I started this thread after the whole NMDA issue was brought up several times in random DAA threads, but were quickly ignored. I myself ignored them till I was set to run a long cycle of DAA and a certain member took the time to explain to possible side effects.
I'm very glad I was made aware of what I could do to myself and that's why I started this thread, so other could be aware. I could care less if some kills their body with supplements, steroids or drugs. It's their body go for it. I just don't want to see anyone use something while they're unaware of the sides....
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
What I'm simply getting at is that if your total test is say, 500 ng/dL. That's about middle of the road in terms of healthy test levels. If it increases by a third, you're total test going up by a third leads to 667 ng/dL, which is still about middle of the road in terms of healthy test levels.
In the end, it's only going to help increase test levels a bit. I think Bubsnt hit the nail on the head. It's an excitotoxin, which may raise test levels a little bit. I have a feeling that in a few years this substance will be like creatine monohydrate to a lesser degree. Some people love it, some people only get side effects, and some people are 'non-responders'.
bluehealer
Active member
What about this?
MORE Testosterone? †
You bet. The key ingredient in ----, D-Aspartic Acid, has been clinically demonstrated to increase mens' natural testosterone production by up to 84% in less than 2 weeks. †