Clomid a TRT Alternative?

lboston

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Lboston, you need to be off of TRT before you do anything else. Here is the problem I have seen over the years. Doctors, most are simply not trained to deal with the horomone issues associated with cycling nor do they have indepth knowledge of why your test, lh, fsh levels are off. .How E2 plays a role etc etc etc.. So they treat the symptom as usual.. They will give you test, or an ED drug and tell you test doesnt matter blah blah blah.. Even if you find an endo, their protocol is going to be a transdermal or a shot biweekly or some go every 3 weeks.. the way they treat the problem is sooo varied, you cant say that anyone one Dr. will do the same thing,... Having been on trt for as many years as I have, several of my bro's have went to primary care docs, urologist, endo's and all of them have a different treatment regimen than I do.. Only the ones that see my doc are following the same as me.. Go figure..
Clomid, should restore your lh, fsh and test levels.. It takes over 70 days I think, to make 1 healthy sperm.. I had a zero sperm count that was checked 3 times.. Im not a doctor and I dont claim to know all there is to know about this.. I have forgotten more about it then I can remember, but i researched what would work best for me and clomid therapy was it.. I have fathered 5 kids since, so obviously my research paid off ;-)
Good luck to you and enjoy the gift you already have.. Ecah one is precious in their own way
Thanks man- I appreciate it. I'm at a loss as of what to do really. Got a call back from an endo today...low normal T, but elevated liver and kidney enzymes. Of course, did not actually talk to a doctor--just his assistant that called. Doc doesn't want to do anything right now; said wait another 8 weeks and then get more bloodwork?? Not real sure why the wait. Told me to get with my PCP regarding the elevated enzymes.

I'm thinking of looking to the Clomid route for myself. I can get it offline and follow a plan-I just like the reassurance of a doc checking things I guess. However, I don't enjoy not getting any type of treatment for my symptoms.

LB
 
The Matrix

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Thanks man- I appreciate it. I'm at a loss as of what to do really. Got a call back from an endo today...low normal T, but elevated liver and kidney enzymes. Of course, did not actually talk to a doctor--just his assistant that called. Doc doesn't want to do anything right now; said wait another 8 weeks and then get more bloodwork?? Not real sure why the wait. Told me to get with my PCP regarding the elevated enzymes.

I'm thinking of looking to the Clomid route for myself. I can get it offline and follow a plan-I just like the reassurance of a doc checking things I guess. However, I don't enjoy not getting any type of treatment for my symptoms.

LB
You own your health no one else. Some times one needs to be proactive in doing what needs to be done. I do not advocate it, but you have to do what you have to do.
 
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mattrag

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I put up a Part II to the Part I that was originally posted in the OP. The researchers had a follow up study published that did a few things differently...summarized here:

http://www.advancedmusclesciencelab.com/2012/05/clomid-trt-alternative-part-ii.html
I also read on another forum about a guy who ran it for over a year and came off higher than normal. With no sides. If anything it shows that its not going to push you too far as far as e2 levels like some speculated or produce crazy sides. He ran it at 25mg ED and tapered off with 12.5mg for a month before stopping. He ran formestane around half way through and noticed great gains. No emo sides either. I'm not saying it's safe or suggesting it's use. Only that it's not as dangerous as some think.
 
The Matrix

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I also read on another forum about a guy who ran it for over a year and came off higher than normal. With no sides. If anything it shows that its not going to push you too far as far as e2 levels like some speculated or produce crazy sides. He ran it at 25mg ED and tapered off with 12.5mg for a month before stopping. He ran formestane around half way through and noticed great gains. No emo sides either. I'm not saying it's safe or suggesting it's use. Only that it's not as dangerous as some think.
Kept at moderate dosages 12-25 mg EOD I do not see issues with side effect, Shippens been doing it for a long time with people with no none reported sides effects.
 

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So jumping in late, but I am on TRT because I am 30 and was down to 259 bioavailable Test .5cc/wk and I am up to 800 or so. Wife and I Tryig to have kids, we thought she was having issues with insulin resistance, turns out I have sperm count of 0!! Anyone experienced this? Going to a urologist but if it's not structural, what pharmaceutical treatments have you seen?? Clomid w/HCG?
 
Kinggrommet

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So jumping in late, but I am on TRT because I am 30 and was down to 259 bioavailable Test .5cc/wk and I am up to 800 or so. Wife and I Tryig to have kids, we thought she was having issues with insulin resistance, turns out I have sperm count of 0!! Anyone experienced this? Going to a urologist but if it's not structural, what pharmaceutical treatments have you seen?? Clomid w/HCG?
Clomid by itself is what I've normally seen. I don't know if the hcg injections have made their way to clinical usage yet. Im pretty sure not enough official studies have been done on it.
 
The Matrix

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So jumping in late, but I am on TRT because I am 30 and was down to 259 bioavailable Test .5cc/wk and I am up to 800 or so. Wife and I Tryig to have kids, we thought she was having issues with insulin resistance, turns out I have sperm count of 0!! Anyone experienced this? Going to a urologist but if it's not structural, what pharmaceutical treatments have you seen?? Clomid w/HCG?
50 mgs clomid i have used with drs to jump start low sperm. But you need to look at factors which is lowering it in the first place ..aka life style is the biggest one
 
supermanjow

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Has anyone experimented with Torem for this purpose?
 

v4lu3s

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Has anyone experimented with Torem for this purpose?
there is one study that shows it can increase testosterone.
http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(07)00070-2/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17412336

they had men who were not fertile and gave them 60mg a day of toremifene and at the end 22% of the men had achieved pregnancy. they state there was a statistically significant increase n testosterone, but that could mean as little as 5%.

if you decide to go with toremifene you will be your own science experiment.

Personally i would stick with Clomid, its cheaper, far more plentiful, more proven, and you can run a much smaller dose to be effective.
 

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there is one study that shows it can increase testosterone.
http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(07)00070-2/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17412336

they had men who were not fertile and gave them 60mg a day of toremifene and at the end 22% of the men had achieved pregnancy. they state there was a statistically significant increase n testosterone, but that could mean as little as 5%.

if you decide to go with toremifene you will be your own science experiment.

Personally i would stick with Clomid, its cheaper, far more plentiful, more proven, and you can run a much smaller dose to be effective.
What about Nolva? I would assume it would have the same effect. I prefer it over clomid for the sides.
 

v4lu3s

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What kind of side effects do you get at 12.5 mg clomid e3d? I have read that nolvadex is e even less effective than toremifene for elevating testosterone.
 

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What kind of side effects do you get at 12.5 mg clomid e3d? I have read that nolvadex is e even less effective than toremifene for elevating testosterone.

Yea I dunno if thats enough to see sides or not?. I hear from some guys that clomid messes with their eyes and I have bad eyes already so I dont want to chance it. Maybe its worth a shot at the low dose.
 
lboston

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Yea I dunno if thats enough to see sides or not?. I hear from some guys that clomid messes with their eyes and I have bad eyes already so I dont want to chance it. Maybe its worth a shot at the low dose.
I had slightly spotted vision, and random times, nothing significant or permanent though.
 
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I will be giving it a go for a PCT soon. I will be starting at 50mg ed first 2 weeks and 50 eod 3rd week, then 25mg eod for the 4th.
 

Bubbagump

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I had slightly spotted vision, and random times, nothing significant or permanent though.

Hmmm. Maybe Ill give it a try at the low dose. Im running nolva for pct right now. Any guess how long I shoul wait after pct is done to do the clomid? Go natty for as long as I cycled (after pct) then clomid?
 
lboston

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Hmmm. Maybe Ill give it a try at the low dose. Im running nolva for pct right now. Any guess how long I shoul wait after pct is done to do the clomid? Go natty for as long as I cycled (after pct) then clomid?
I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but i would think it wouldn't really make a difference.
You could even use Clomid in you PCT and then just carry on with the low dose for "TrT" purposes.
 

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I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but i would think it wouldn't really make a difference.
You could even use Clomid in you PCT and then just carry on with the low dose for "TrT" purposes.
Ok. I guess I was looking at it from the natural hormone balance standpoint.
 
lboston

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Ok. I guess I was looking at it from the natural hormone balance standpoint.
Well, even though Clomid can and will raise "natural" test levels by increasing LH, it is not quite the same as being natural. It's still a compound used to increase test, it's just not exogenous test.

Seems to be effective though!
 

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I had slightly spotted vision, and random times, nothing significant or permanent though.
Screw that noise. When I heard from my endo that vision problems can be a common side effect, it was immediately off the table.
 

v4lu3s

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Screw that noise. When I heard from my endo that vision problems can be a common side effect, it was immediately off the table.
Common over the counter medications can cause permanent liver damage and death. Clomid Is a lot safer in small sensible doses. If you want the side effects follow bro science dosing schedules such as 50,100, or 150 milligrams per day.
 

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Yeah, I appreciate the knowledge- I get it. Still...screw that.
 

vassille

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There is a reason ppl get prescribed test for HRT and not clomid. Short term clomid is ok but I wouldnt take for any length of time.
 

v4lu3s

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Then how come drs are starting to use clomid for trt since it maintains the hormone cascade in a more intact manner than straight test?
 

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How many doctors do you believe are actually doing that, first of all. Secondly, we know how many doctors don't understand anything about HRT, so this wouldn't really be surprising if it was actually happening. Even the most incompetent doctors I saw knew that clomid was only to try to "kickstart" natural production and if it didn't work in a couple months, it was time to come off.

Also, if someone plans to be on TRT/HRT, it's for life anyway. Why would you not choose to go the most natural route with the greatest success- test? I don't get the point of experimenting with other things that mimic test if it is lifelong.
 

vassille

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Then how come drs are starting to use clomid for trt since it maintains the hormone cascade in a more intact manner than straight test?
Because many doctors dont want to deal with a scheduled drug. It has a stigma attached to it.So they try the micky mouse approach they figure why not.Some dont even deal with injectibles only patches and gels which doent really work all that well either.
Fact is that I have plenty of clomid around and everytime I take it I feel like ****, as simple as that. I choose HCG which I dont really like either but is the better of the 2 for me anyway and I only take it sparingly.
Im not trying to give you a hard just giving you a bro science real life example;)
 

vassille

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Then how come drs are starting to use clomid for trt since it maintains the hormone cascade in a more intact manner than straight test?
Because many doctors dont want to deal with a scheduled drug. It has a stigma attached to it.So they try the micky mouse approach they figure why not.Some dont even deal with injectibles only patches and gels which doent really work all that well either.
Fact is that I have plenty of clomid around and everytime I take it I feel like ****, as simple as that. I choose HCG which I dont really like either but is the better of the 2 for me anyway and I only take it sparingly.
Im not trying to give you a hard just giving you a bro science real life example;)
 
The Matrix

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Because many doctors dont want to deal with a scheduled drug. It has a stigma attached to it.So they try the micky mouse approach they figure why not.Some dont even deal with injectibles only patches and gels which doent really work all that well either.
Fact is that I have plenty of clomid around and everytime I take it I feel like ****, as simple as that. I choose HCG which I dont really like either but is the better of the 2 for me anyway and I only take it sparingly.
Im not trying to give you a hard just giving you a bro science real life example;)
The problem is that many drs are not taking care of the proper issues before putting people on clomid to get maxium benefit. People I have worked with Dr's had them do clomid challenge then failed. I suggested dr to put them back on TRT till we explore why then correct it. After the imbalance was found 4 months later, the body was now ready to get the green light to try again. Bingo !! success...some people have been on it 12.5 mgs every 2-3 days holding at 700 plus feeling great due to body and mind was completely balanced.
 

vassille

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The problem is that many drs are not taking care of the proper issues before putting people on clomid to get maxium benefit. People I have worked with Dr's had them do clomid challenge then failed. I suggested dr to put them back on TRT till we explore why then correct it. After the imbalance was found 4 months later, the body was now ready to get the green light to try again. Bingo !! success...some people have been on it 12.5 mgs every 2-3 days holding at 700 plus feeling great due to body and mind was completely balanced.
Clomid is not for everyone. Many ppl exibit emotional issues on it and personally I dont think is safe to use long term.
 

v4lu3s

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Clomid is not for everyone. Many ppl exibit emotional issues on it and personally I dont think is safe to use long term.
Based on what science? I have yet to see a study showing problems or side effects in low doses. Most people do not see side effects until overdose at 50-150 mg a day.
Testosterone is not always the answer especially since its use can cause shutdown of multiple systems.
If you ask me there should be long term studies done specifically for male hormone therapy because it does have great potential and is a VERY cheap drug.
 
The Matrix

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Clomid is not for everyone. Many ppl exibit emotional issues on it and personally I dont think is safe to use long term.
At dosages of 25-50 mgs it can cause long term side effects agreed, but using dosages at 12.5 mgs every few days I see it having more benefits then risk. Again the protocol are individualized and based upon bioindivduality. Clomid may not work for certain people why they need to be under proper medical supervision while using it.
 

vassille

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Based on what science? I have yet to see a study showing problems or side effects in low doses. Most people do not see side effects until overdose at 50-150 mg a day.
Testosterone is not always the answer especially since its use can cause shutdown of multiple systems.
If you ask me there should be long term studies done specifically for male hormone therapy because it does have great potential and is a VERY cheap drug.
Based on the science that I have not yet seen a person on clomid treatment 10+ years. Show me examples and I would like talk to them to comfirm your theory.
On the other hand there are plenty of ppl on testosterone therapy for 10+years.
Besides I have not seen any long term studies on clomid of 10-20years and it's funny the drug has been around for many years...wonder why!
What Im concerned about is that ppl start jumping on something without doing their due diligence. Much like ppl taking statins for high cholesterol without understanding what cholesterol does and the sides of those statins.
Listen, I've taken clomid and I cant, from my personal use, recommend it long term.
 

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I have been on 12.5mg eod for about five weeks. I have responded very well so far. Strength and endurance are up. Recovery is solid. sleeping better. Up a few lbs and down 1.5 inches on the waist. Will get blood work in 3 wks. Overall I feel a lot better than I did before. More like I did in my late 20s.
 
lboston

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I have been on 12.5mg eod for about five weeks. I have responded very well so far. Strength and endurance are up. Recovery is solid. sleeping better. Up a few lbs and down 1.5 inches on the waist. Will get blood work in 3 wks. Overall I feel a lot better than I did before. More like I did in my late 20s.
Nice. If you don't mind sharing, how young are you?
 
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At dosages of 25-50 mgs it can cause long term side effects agreed, but using dosages at 12.5 mgs every few days I see it having more benefits then risk. Again the protocol are individualized and based upon bioindivduality. Clomid may not work for certain people why they need to be under proper medical supervision while using it.
Really? Like what? Because over 3 years there are no documented side effects. Please post something other than "my doctors office..."

Based on the science that I have not yet seen a person on clomid treatment 10+ years. Show me examples and I would like talk to them to comfirm your theory.
On the other hand there are plenty of ppl on testosterone therapy for 10+years.
Besides I have not seen any long term studies on clomid of 10-20years and it's funny the drug has been around for many years...wonder why!
What Im concerned about is that ppl start jumping on something without doing their due diligence. Much like ppl taking statins for high cholesterol without understanding what cholesterol does and the sides of those statins.
Listen, I've taken clomid and I cant, from my personal use, recommend it long term.

3 years...safe. That was just done this year. Just because it's been a drug for a long time does not mean it was originally intended to treat hypogonadism. Most people don't care what x=1 recommends, especially on the internet. What they care about is how it performs over significantly more people subjected to controls.

BJU Int. 2012 Mar 28. doi: 10.1111/j.1464-410X.2012.10968.x. [Epub ahead of print][h=1]Clomiphene citrate is safe and effective for long-term management of hypogonadism.[/h]Moskovic DJ, Katz DJ, Akhavan A, Park K, Mulhall JP.
[h=3]Source[/h]Sexual & Reproductive Medicine Program, Urology Service, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY, USA.

[h=3]Abstract[/h]Study Type - Therapy (population cohort) Level of Evidence 2a What's known on the subject? and What does the study add? Clomiphene citrate (CC) has previously been documented to be efficacious in the treatment of hypogonadism. However little is known about the long term efficacy andsafety of CC. Our study demonstrates that CC is efficacious after 3 years of therapy. Testosterone levels and bone mineral density measurement improved significantly and were sustained over this prolonged period. Subjective improvements were also demonstrated. No adverse events were reported.
[h=4]OBJECTIVE:[/h]•  To assess the efficacy and safety of long-term clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in symptomatic patients with hypogonadism (HG).
[h=4]PATIENTS AND METHODS:[/h]•  Serum T, oestradiol and luteinizing hormone (LH) were measured in patients who were treated with CC for over 12 months. •  Additionally, bone densitometry (BD) results were collected for all patients. Demographic, comorbidity, treatment and Androgen Deficiency in Aging Men (ADAM) score data were also recorded. •  Comparison was made between baseline and post-treatment variables, and multivariable analysis was conducted to define predictors of successful response to CC. •  The main outcome measures were predictors of response and long-term results with long-term CC therapy in hypogonadal patients.
[h=4]RESULTS:[/h]•  The 46 patients (mean age 44 years) had baseline serum testosterone (T) levels of 228 ng/dL. •  Follow-up T levels were 612 ng/dL at 1 year, 562 ng/dL at 2 years, and 582 ng/dL at 3 years (P < 0.001). •  Mean femoral neck and lumbar spine BD scores improved significantly. •  ADAM scores (and responses) fell from a baseline of 7 to a nadir of 3 after 1 year. •  No adverse events were reported by any patients.
[h=4]CONCLUSIONS:[/h]•  Clomiphene citrate is an effective long-term therapy for HG in appropriate patients. •  The drug raises T levels substantially in addition to improving other manifestations of HG such as osteopenia/osteoporosis and ADAM symptoms.

© 2012 THE AUTHORS. BJU INTERNATIONAL © 2012 BJU INTERNATIONAL.
 

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Really? Like what? Because over 3 years there are no documented side effects. Please post something other than "my doctors office..."




3 years...safe. That was just done this year. Just because it's been a drug for a long time does not mean it was originally intended to treat hypogonadism. Most people don't care what x=1 recommends, especially on the internet. What they care about is how it performs over significantly more people subjected to controls.
Clomid does have sides maybe you the lucky one who can tolerate it.
2nd, it doesnt work for ppl who have gonad problems.
Over all does not address the entire picture in regards to low test.
So with it's sides and limited use only appeal to very few ppl.
Not to forget clomid is a SERM which is not something our bodies make, so it does act like a weak estrogen and attach itself to certain receptors where clomid has no business attaching itself to, which prevents other hormons from doing their job.
I would like to hear from more ppl who takes it for HRT.
 

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I would say that most every time I have read about side effects with clomid the doses were way higher than 12.5mgs eod. It appears the low dose option has not led to side effects. I am no expert but I feel I have reviewed every single forum post I could find using google. So far I have experienced no unwanted side effects. However, I am only on week five....
 

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I would say that most every time I have read about side effects with clomid the doses were way higher than 12.5mgs eod. It appears the low dose option has not led to side effects. I am no expert but I feel I have reviewed every single forum post I could find using google. So far I have experienced no unwanted side effects. However, I am only on week five....
Please continue to update good sir!
 
The Matrix

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I would say that most every time I have read about side effects with clomid the doses were way higher than 12.5mgs eod. It appears the low dose option has not led to side effects. I am no expert but I feel I have reviewed every single forum post I could find using google. So far I have experienced no unwanted side effects. However, I am only on week five....
Point I was making.....
 

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Matrix - you were the first person i came across to discuss the low dose option and turned me onto the idea. After much research my doctor and I decided it was a viable option and so far so good. Thanks for all you do to pass information along. Educating yourself and having a good relationship with a doctor are the key to long term health in my opinion.
 
The Matrix

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Matrix - you were the first person i came across to discuss the low dose option and turned me onto the idea. After much research my doctor and I decided it was a viable option and so far so good. Thanks for all you do to pass information along. Educating yourself and having a good relationship with a doctor are the key to long term health in my opinion.
You need to keep digging because there are still underlying issues which may come back to haunt you. If your Dr is interested I be glad to speak to him to see about what it is that I do. With each Dr I work with these are all explored to prevent this from happening. The end result is it compliments the current treatment and may resolve other lagging issues this approach does not. I have just begun...I have been invited over to europe by the owner opening up a center who has MD on staff. We plan on taking what I do over here to across the pond . Most centers over there are out dated or just push hormones on people never resolving the issue potentially causing more problems. As I get more detailed with cases actually starting to get one on one with the specialists then things are really going to take off. For now the client notified me which Dr or Dr's they are working on their cases, but getting stagnant looking for other alternatives. Not mentioned names or anything due to professional courtesy because they are doing their best. In no way am I talking trash on any one.
 

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I would think that Repros Inc, who is in the midst of their next phase of testing enclomiphene citrate (Androxal) for the long term treatment of secondary hypogonadism, says enough about lower doses and the safety of such, in addition to this other study in the TS post.

If they get this approved, maybe by 2014 if the FDA doesn't get in the way, the protocol is daily dosing forever basically 12.5/25mg.
 

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