Clomid a TRT Alternative?

[AutoKal47]

Just ran into this article, what you guys say about it?
Clomid safer than TRT? Estrogen?
They don't mention dosage, what would the right dosage be for such
purpose?

Advanced Muscle Science: Clomid a TRT Alternative

 

[heavylifter33]

Nice find on that article man, hadn't seen or heard of that study being done. I like the idea that Clomid is much easier on the system and will most likely escape some of the long term negatives associated with TRT. It would be great to see the results of some of the patients after a month or 6 moths post clomid. For a non-bodybuilder, those levels reported would be fantastic in my opinion. Hell even for a bodybuilder that's great.

 

[fadi]

Very interesting article. It would be interesting to know the dose. Rhadam, do you suspect problems after stoping clomid or are you wondering if their levels would revert back to normal?

 

[heavylifter33]

Both actually. Would be keen to know how long it took for the levels to drop, and how low the levels end up. Especially to note whether they go below the original baseline or end up higher. Secondly, with such a long period of SERM use, i'd love to see clinical evidence of HPTA issues.

 

[AutoKal47]

Yeah the results are quite nice indeed.
Even the writer wonders about level once you stop it, but he had a point:
one needs to stay on TRT on a regular basis (am i wrong?) hence Clomid seems safer
I'd totally be curious about the dosage tho'..

And assuming one decides to go that route, what should be taken with Clomid to avoid sides?
(I'm a natty bb and I've never took Clomid or any prescription PTC like med so I know absolute nothing about
possible sides, but I'm 34 and about to get my test level checked so.. interested in the matter)

 

[fadi]

Here is the abstract

What's known on the subject? and What does the study add?


Hypogonadism is a prevalent problem, increasing in frequency as men age. It
is most commonly treated by testosterone supplementation therapy but in younger
patients this can lead to testicular atrophy with subsequent exogenous
testosterone dependency and may impair spermatogenesis. Clomiphene citrate (CC)
may be used as an alternative treatment in these patients with hypogonadism when
maintenance of fertility is desired.


This study shows that CC is a safe and efficacious drug to use as an
alternative to exogenous testosterone. Not only have we validated previous
findings of other papers but have proven our findings over a much longer period
(mean duration of treatment 19 months). This prospective study is the largest to
date assessing both the objective hormone response to CC therapy as well as the
subjective response based on a validated questionnaire.

[h=4]OBJECTIVE[/h]

• To prospectively assess the andrological outcomes of long-term
  clomiphene citrate (CC) treatment in hypogonadal
  men.

[h=4]PATIENTS AND METHODS[/h]

• We prospectively evaluated 86 men with hypogonadism (HG) as
  confirmed by two consecutive early morning testosterone measurements
  <300 ng/dL.
• The cohort included all men with HG presenting to our clinic
  between 2002 and 2006 who, after an informed discussion, elected to have CC
  therapy. CC was commenced at 25 mg every other day and titrated to 50 mg every
  other day. The target testosterone level was 550 ± 50 ng/dL.
• Testosterone (free and total), sex hormone binding globulin,
  oestradiol, luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone were measured
  at baseline and during treatment on all patients. Once the desired testosterone
  level was achieved, testosterone/gonadotropin levels were measured twice per
  year.
• To assess subjective response to treatment, the androgen
  deficiency in aging males (ADAM) questionnaire was administered before treatment
  and during follow-up.

[h=4]RESULTS[/h]

• Patients' mean (standard deviation [sd]; range) age was 29 (3; 22–37) years. Infertility was
  the most common reason (64%) for seeking treatment. The mean (sd) duration of CC treatment was 19 (14) months.
• At the last evaluation, 70% of men were using 25 mg CC every
  other day, and the remainder were using 50 mg every other day.
• All mean testosterone and gonadotropin measurements
  significantly increased during treatment.
• Subjectively, there was an improvement in all questions (except
  loss of height) on the ADAM questionnaire. More than half the patients had an
  improvement in at least three symptoms.
• There were no major side effects recorded and the presence of a
  varicocele did not have an impact on the response to
  CC.

[h=4]CONCLUSION[/h]

• Long-term follow-up of CC treatment for HG shows that it appears
  to be an effective and safe alternative to testosterone supplementation in men
  wishing to preserve their fertility.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Hey guys I actually wrote this article. The dosage was 25mg's EOD for most, but they worked up to 50mg's EOD for some of them though. It was never explained as to why they chose the dosing protocol.

 

[AutoKal47]

Awesome Roid

So, conclusion appears to be good?
Clomid can actually be used as an alternative to TRT?

Sorry to repeat myself but, what are the common sides of Clomid (and what to do avoid/minimize 'em)?

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Awesome Roid

So, conclusion appears to be good?
Clomid can actually be used as an alternative to TRT?

Sorry to repeat myself but, what are the common sides of Clomid (and what to do avoid/minimize 'em)?

There were actually no major side effects reported with this study. There was also a big subjective part of the study and most men had at least one symptom improved and over half had at least three symptoms improved.

Still a lot of men have anecdotally reported that clomid makes them 'emotional'. I wonder if the every other day dosing protocol had something to do with minimizing these negative effects. Hard to say though. This is a good sign though that clomid can potentially be an alternative...

They should have had some fertility measures in there as well. But didnt unfortunately.

 

[ssbackwards]

There were actually no major side effects reported with this study. There was also a big subjective part of the study and most men had at least one symptom improved and over half had at least three symptoms improved.

Still a lot of men have anecdotally reported that clomid makes them 'emotional'. I wonder if the every other day dosing protocol had something to do with minimizing these negative effects. Hard to say though. This is a good sign though that clomid can potentially be an alternative...

They should have had some fertility measures in there as well. But didnt unfortunately.

probably due to effects on ERb,

id say take a lil aromasin every so often, problem is you dont wanna eradicate estrogen, but manage

 

[RawStrength]

Wow...

 

[JudoJosh]

Nice article Travis :thumbsup:

I have seen this suggested countless times by Ben on M&M, nice to it verified.

 

[JoHNnyNuTZ]

So, if clomid is an alternative to trt. It would then be possible to run cycles while on clomid???

 

[fadi]

Clomid won't prevent a shutdown

 

[ssbackwards]

So, if clomid is an alternative to trt. It would then be possible to run cycles while on clomid???

opiate antagonist, 7,8 benzo, and high dose fadogia (3x a week)


should reduce it greatly.

 

[The Matrix]

25 mg is still too high eod.for.most. I have suggested.to Dr.much much lower dosage with great results

 

[JudoJosh]

So, if clomid is an alternative to trt. It would then be possible to run cycles while on clomid???

Yes you can but it wont prevent shut down via the androgenic pathway. Anytime you are using a androgenic steroid you will get shut down. You would have to find a way to antagonise the androgen receptor at the hypothalamus/pituitary if you wanted to stop it.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

25 mg is still too high eod.for.most. I have suggested.to Dr.much much lower dosage with great results

Do you actually use this method for people?

 

[AZMIDLYF]

Very interested in this

 

[AutoKal47]

25 mg is still too high eod.for.most. I have suggested.to Dr.much much lower dosage with great results

Do you actually use this method for people?

+1, would be great to hear some real life feedback about this

 

[DGeez]

My endo has also recommended this treatment. I am considering giving it a shot this summer to try and come off trt

 

[JudoJosh]

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/showthread.php?t=36265

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/showthread.php?t=36119

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23940

 

[The Matrix]

My endo has also recommended this treatment. I am considering giving it a shot this summer to try and come off trt

Before coming off HRT you need to have all green lights go. If they are not they you will crash and not be able to restart. It take me 4 months to prep people helping their DR in order to even attempt a restart.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Before coming off HRT you need to have all green lights go. If they are not they you will crash and not be able to restart. It take me 4 months to prep people helping their DR in order to even attempt a restart.

Which consists of what exactly? Other drugs? Risk recognition?

 

[The Matrix]

Which consists of what exactly? Other drugs? Risk recognition?

Looking into why you are in it in the first place by examining neurological pathways, life styles, immune, GI, other endocrine imbalances, and identifying any other stressors which could be preventing the body from restarting on its own.

 

[AutoKal47]

Quicky:

would be a problem to run Clomid with DAA? I suppose not since lotsa PCTs look like this
but since the use of Clomid here would be different I thought was a good idea to ask first..
I mean, my guess is it should be ok since Clomid here is used to raise test and DAA also does that,
but again, *I* am guessing I'd appreciate an educated opinion

also, is Clomid ran 12.5mg ED going to be ok? too lil?

 

[The Matrix]

Quicky:

would be a problem to run Clomid with DAA? I suppose not since lotsa PCTs look like this
but since the use of Clomid here would be different I thought was a good idea to ask first..
I mean, my guess is it should be ok since Clomid here is used to raise test and DAA also does that,
but again, *I* am guessing I'd appreciate an educated opinion

also, is Clomid ran 12.5mg ED going to be ok? too lil?

I have a few guys running this along with clomid prescribed from their Dr and its working great. The thing I do not know is how one can run DAA long term as well as the side effects.

 

[AutoKal47]

I have a few guys running this along with clomid prescribed from their Dr and its working great. The thing I do not know is how one can run DAA long term as well as the side effects.

Thanks a lot for the feedback

I'm not planning on running DAA for long term, well not without cycling it,
I asked simply because my default/fav prewo has DAA in it (Lit-Up) and
I was wondering if it was ok to use it when on Clomid

I use it for 40 days max then cycle it off 4 to 6 weeks before using it again.

 

[The Matrix]

Thanks a lot for the feedback

I'm not planning on running DAA for long term, well not without cycling it,
I asked simply because my default/fav prewo has DAA in it (Lit-Up) and
I was wondering if it was ok to use it when on Clomid

I use it for 40 days max then cycle it off 4 to 6 weeks before using it again.

It has not been out for that long so there are only theories on how to cycle it. I would not use it long term either. One could look at it as an NO product and may be just take it with their workouts and still get the benefits and not cycle it since it is not taken every day. I know with herbs I recommend 5 on 2 off which prevents down regulation for long term use. I even have people do the same on multivitamin some time if it gets too expensive. Now DHEA I do not know about, but it may not be a bad idea for long term use.

 

[AutoKal47]

It has not been out for that long so there are only theories on how to cycle it. I would not use it long term either. One could look at it as an NO product and may be just take it with their workouts and still get the benefits and not cycle it since it is not taken every day. I know with herbs I recommend 5 on 2 off which prevents down regulation for long term use. I even have people do the same on multivitamin some time if it gets too expensive. Now DHEA I do not know about, but it may not be a bad idea for long term use.

I cycle it that way because I cycle all my prewo products,
and I only use/used DAA in "Lit-Up form", not for any other reason really.
It worked very well on me so far, but I workout 6days a week, so when i take it
I take it everyday because it seemed silly not to just for one day..

As for DHEA, I'm using transdermal magnesium oil, trynna raise DHEA naturally.

Sorry if I ask again, but, for the Clomid, 12.5mg a day is gonna be ok?

 

[The Matrix]

I cycle it that way because I cycle all my prewo products,
and I only use/used DAA in "Lit-Up form", not for any other reason really.
It worked very well on me so far, but I workout 6days a week, so when i take it
I take it everyday because it seemed silly not to just for one day..

As for DHEA, I'm using transdermal magnesium oil, trynna raise DHEA naturally.

Sorry if I ask again, but, for the Clomid, 12.5mg a day is gonna be ok?

Find out why DHEA is low usually due to immune system imbalance, or insulin issues. Majority its due to hidden inflammation in GI tract.
12.5 mgs is good to start then remeasure in 3 weeks. Some guys need it m,w,f and stay at 1000 TT

 

[PumpDogg]

For whoever has asked for real world results.. I was prescribed clomid 50 mgs per day 365 days a year!!!!!!!!!! I took this for about 5-6 years.. Anyways, I found that at the above dosing protocol, test levels always in mid range 600 or so give or take a 100 ngdl..
Mood was affected negatively also.. I seemed to be more emotional..
Sex drive was normal,.., Never extreme on either end of the spectrum
AST and ALT always came in the normal range


Overall it was a good run.. I did notice however as the years went by it seemed that my test levels and sex drive, erection strength etc was not as good as it was when I began the clomid treatment thearpy..

I got the idea from reading pubmed journals and it was the answer to a ZERO sperm count issue as I wanted to have children and had been on trt and was kinda screwed in that department..

Currently I am on TRT again using Androgel.. It works, but nothing works like a shot of test a week NOTHING!!!

 

[The Matrix]

For whoever has asked for real world results.. I was prescribed clomid 50 mgs per day 365 days a year!!!!!!!!!! I took this for about 5-6 years.. I would cycle in between doctor appointments, never more than 2 cycles a year.. and when i say cycle. I dont mean running an oral for 3 weeks either.. Anyways, I found that at the above dosing protocol, test levels always in mid range 600 or so give or take a 100 ngdl..
Mood was affected negatively also.. I seemed to be more emotional, to the point I began smoking weed as not to be quick to snap and go off on my wife and kids!!
Sex drive was normal,.., Never extreme on either end of the spectrum
AST and ALT always came in the normal range
Lipids unaffected for most part.. I take Niaspan and Zetia for that, so it was unchanged

Overall it was a good run.. I did notice however as the years went by and I would cycle test cyp or enath, it seemed that my test levels and sex drive, erection strength etc was not as good as it was when I began the clomid treatment thearpy..

I got the idea from reading pubmed journals and it was the answer to a ZERO sperm count issue as I wanted to have children and had been on trt and was kinda screwed in that department..

Currently I am on TRT again using Androgel.. It works, but nothing works like a shot of test a week NOTHING!!!

We have found high dosage of clomid can cause a down regulation of LH resulting in lower levels of testosterone over just a 2-3 month peroid. More is not better, but less is. 50 mgs daily too many potential side effect long term.

 

[AutoKal47]

Find out why DHEA is low usually due to immune system imbalance, or insulin issues. Majority its due to hidden inflammation in GI tract.
12.5 mgs is good to start then remeasure in 3 weeks. Some guys need it m,w,f and stay at 1000 TT

For me it comes from long term diet (as in pretty massive cal deficit) + crazy training intensity

M,w,f sounds even better to start with, didn't think about that.

 

[jdub1980]

I am interested in switching to clomid for TRT. I think that I am secondary hypogonadal because LH was 3.05 mIU/mL (reference range 1.24-8.62) and prolactin was 4.55 ng/mL (reference range 2.64-13.13) before starting TRT. From what I have read, LH and prolactin are higher if you are primary hypogonadal.

My question is, what would be a typical protocol for weening myself off of test cyp and onto clomid? Any input would be appreciated.

 

[lboston]

For whoever has asked for real world results.. I was prescribed clomid 50 mgs per day 365 days a year!!!!!!!!!! I took this for about 5-6 years.. I would cycle in between doctor appointments, never more than 2 cycles a year.. and when i say cycle. I dont mean running an oral for 3 weeks either.. Anyways, I found that at the above dosing protocol, test levels always in mid range 600 or so give or take a 100 ngdl..
Mood was affected negatively also.. I seemed to be more emotional, to the point I began smoking weed as not to be quick to snap and go off on my wife and kids!!
Sex drive was normal,.., Never extreme on either end of the spectrum
AST and ALT always came in the normal range
Lipids unaffected for most part.. I take Niaspan and Zetia for that, so it was unchanged

Overall it was a good run.. I did notice however as the years went by and I would cycle test cyp or enath, it seemed that my test levels and sex drive, erection strength etc was not as good as it was when I began the clomid treatment thearpy..

I got the idea from reading pubmed journals and it was the answer to a ZERO sperm count issue as I wanted to have children and had been on trt and was kinda screwed in that department..

Currently I am on TRT again using Androgel.. It works, but nothing works like a shot of test a week NOTHING!!!

Pump...or Matrix...

I'm 27 at recently put on TRT. Convened abut the fertility issues that it could cause. I have one daughter-1 yr-but my wife and I are wanting to try again in about 1.5 yrs.

I've never had a sperm count done, but know I'm fertile as we've had two pregnancies within about a 6-9 mo time frame (one unfortunately ended in miscarriage). Is TRT definitely a death sentence for fertility?

I am wondering if the clomid alternative would be good to consider and mention to an endo I am going to see at the end of the month. A urologist put me on TRT for TT levels of 192ng/dl, but I am wanting to search for a diff doc as he answered NEARLY NO questions for me.

Always appreciate the help!

 

[The Matrix]

I am interested in switching to clomid for TRT. I think that I am secondary hypogonadal because LH was 3.05 mIU/mL (reference range 1.24-8.62) and prolactin was 4.55 ng/mL (reference range 2.64-13.13) before starting TRT. From what I have read, LH and prolactin are higher if you are primary hypogonadal.

My question is, what would be a typical protocol for weening myself off of test cyp and onto clomid? Any input would be appreciated.

Before coming off HRT one needs to make sure there is optimal environment for hormones production to be continued. For people who take this approach, We usually take up to 4 months to prepare their bodies to come off of HRT to create the proper environment for their production to take over.

 

[jdub1980]

How about 12.5mg clomid eod or e3d for a few months while gradually lowering test dosage to none? Then staying on clomid long term?

 

[The Matrix]

How about 12.5mg clomid eod or e3d for a few months while gradually lowering test dosage to none? Then staying on clomid long term?[/QUObe

Need to have all ducks in a row then get base line reading 10 days off testosterone then you do closed challenge 7 days retest see if you hold.

 

[LMuscle]

Currently I am on TRT again using Androgel.. It works, but nothing works like a shot of test a week NOTHING!!!

I need to get off this Testim crap and onto test cyp. Testim really isn't doing **** for me. What do you feel like an hour after a shot of test?

 

[PumpDogg]

Lboston, you need to be off of TRT before you do anything else. Here is the problem I have seen over the years. Doctors, most are simply not trained to deal with the horomone issues associated with cycling nor do they have indepth knowledge of why your test, lh, fsh levels are off. .How E2 plays a role etc etc etc.. So they treat the symptom as usual.. They will give you test, or an ED drug and tell you test doesnt matter blah blah blah.. Even if you find an endo, their protocol is going to be a transdermal or a shot biweekly or some go every 3 weeks.. the way they treat the problem is sooo varied, you cant say that anyone one Dr. will do the same thing,... Having been on trt for as many years as I have, several of my bro's have went to primary care docs, urologist, endo's and all of them have a different treatment regimen than I do.. Only the ones that see my doc are following the same as me.. Go figure..
Clomid, should restore your lh, fsh and test levels.. It takes over 70 days I think, to make 1 healthy sperm.. I had a zero sperm count that was checked 3 times.. Im not a doctor and I dont claim to know all there is to know about this.. I have forgotten more about it then I can remember, but i researched what would work best for me and clomid therapy was it.. I have fathered 5 kids since, so obviously my research paid off ;-)
Good luck to you and enjoy the gift you already have.. Ecah one is precious in their own way

 

[ohiostate2827]

I thought clomid wasnt good for the liver long term

 

[Blergs]

I would never rec that over acual TRT. if you have low test you have low test. clomid has lots of side effects also, more than TRT dosed test.
but for those not willing to take a shot 2 times a month i guess they will praise this one...

 

[Blergs]

Lboston, you need to be off of TRT before you do anything else. Here is the problem I have seen over the years. Doctors, most are simply not trained to deal with the horomone issues associated with cycling nor do they have indepth knowledge of why your test, lh, fsh levels are off. .How E2 plays a role etc etc etc.. So they treat the symptom as usual.. They will give you test, or an ED drug and tell you test doesnt matter blah blah blah.. Even if you find an endo, their protocol is going to be a transdermal or a shot biweekly or some go every 3 weeks.. the way they treat the problem is sooo varied, you cant say that anyone one Dr. will do the same thing,... Having been on trt for as many years as I have, several of my bro's have went to primary care docs, urologist, endo's and all of them have a different treatment regimen than I do.. Only the ones that see my doc are following the same as me.. Go figure..
Clomid, should restore your lh, fsh and test levels.. It takes over 70 days I think, to make 1 healthy sperm.. I had a zero sperm count that was checked 3 times.. Im not a doctor and I dont claim to know all there is to know about this.. I have forgotten more about it then I can remember, but i researched what would work best for me and clomid therapy was it.. I have fathered 5 kids since, so obviously my research paid off ;-)
Good luck to you and enjoy the gift you already have.. Ecah one is precious in their own way

if tryign to have kids while on TRT then i think its a nice idea t use. but life long i would not rec the clomid.

 

[The Matrix]

I thought clomid wasnt good for the liver long term

Low dosage 12.5 mgs every so often one will be fine. >25 mgs then you may be increasing risk of sight issues and other side effect

 

[The Matrix]

if tryign to have kids while on TRT then i think its a nice idea t use. but life long i would not rec the clomid.

HMG is what I suggest to dr's for guys you want to increase their chances if HCG does not work. Ageless guy been on hrt for 20 years fathered a child at age of 61 !!

 

[PumpDogg]

I would never rec that over acual TRT. if you have low test you have low test. clomid has lots of side effects also, more than TRT dosed test.
but for those not willing to take a shot 2 times a month i guess they will praise this one...

I agree, Im not advocating clomid over standard trt nor am I advocating clomid for life.. However for the short term it works quite well..

HCG.. Great drug, but those that are sensitive to Estrogen can get gyno from it, Ive seen it.. So clomid keeps that at bay also.. To each their own.. It worked for me.. I dont take clomid any longer btw

 

[ohiostate2827]

I agree, Im not advocating clomid over standard trt nor am I advocating clomid for life.. However for the short term it works quite well..

HCG.. Great drug, but those that are sensitive to Estrogen can get gyno from it, Ive seen it.. So clomid keeps that at bay also.. To each their own.. It worked for me.. I dont take clomid any longer btw

why do you take cyp? instead of androgel?

 

[The Matrix]

why do you take cyp? instead of androgel?

Some people prefer shots over gels due to possible contamination of loved ones esp small childern.

 

[braf]

I have been able to maintain a T level of over 700 while taking 12.5mg EOD, without it my levels are around 350... Doing this and taking matrixs other advice i have been able to hold over 700,,,just tested last week my tt was 737

i know dr. shippen is a big fan of using low dosage clomid for some of his patients,

im interested in seeing if my levels go back down after stopping clomid though