Building Back Up

[GreenMachineX]

Nice session, hopefully PEM is not too bad tomorrow. Tweak, Observe, tweak again until we figure out the best situation for your PEM issues.

Actually feel decent today. Very mild difficulty sleeping for a workout night. Still woke up way earlier then necessary, by only feeling very mild fatigue today...none of the garbage PEM side effects. Finally in a good mood to take my daughter to the bus stop!

So, yesterday's recipe for today's success was:

-plenty of kcal and carbs (still around maintenance though roughly)
-no b12
-no supplemental magnesium
-only 2 eggs
-keeping DL 1-2 RIR and low overall volume
-no food folate

Going to tweak each of those as I go. Those seem to be the most consistent factors resulting in insomnia, PEM and anxiety.

 

[Dustin07]

It will be interesting to see if your carb situation is similar to mine.
If I'm able to pull off some more successful fasting, and simultaneously keep carbs up on lifting days then life is good

I can tell you that my symptoms when low carb are severe enough that my wife even noticed, in fact I think she was the one that pointed out "your carbs have been really low lately", that's when I started making the connection between my own poor mood and exhaustion and low carb.

 

[MrKleen73]

Great to hear you are feeling pretty good today and in a good mood!

You might want to consider some Build and Burn Day type of caloric swing. Lower your calories by whatever you increase them on for training days, or even a little lower so you can easily continue your progress on leaning out with less PEM worries. You could even try IF on those days if you wanted. Not a full day but just a 16/8 type of thing where you wait until noon to eat any calories on non training days. That or just spread out throughout the day. Could be a way to incorporate PEM management with your weight loss goals.

 

[GreenMachineX]

It will be interesting to see if your carb situation is similar to mine.
If I'm able to pull off some more successful fasting, and simultaneously keep carbs up on lifting days then life is good

I can tell you that my symptoms when low carb are severe enough that my wife even noticed, in fact I think she was the one that pointed out "your carbs have been really low lately", that's when I started making the connection between my own poor mood and exhaustion and low carb.

How low was that? What's your minimum carb intake for mood?

 

[GreenMachineX]

Great to hear you are feeling pretty good today and in a good mood!

You might want to consider some Build and Burn Day type of caloric swing. Lower your calories by whatever you increase them on for training days, or even a little lower so you can easily continue your progress on leaning out with less PEM worries. You could even try IF on those days if you wanted. Not a full day but just a 16/8 type of thing where you wait until noon to eat any calories on non training days. That or just spread out throughout the day. Could be a way to incorporate PEM management with your weight loss goals.

Yeah, good points. That's kind of what I'm doing now, just not 100%. Guess i need to make more rice lol

 

[Dustin07]

Yeah, good points. That's kind of what I'm doing now, just not 100%. Guess i need to make more rice lol

I really love these pre workout! My wife gets them at Costco for me and I keep them stacked up at work

 

[MrKleen73]

I really love these pre workout! My wife gets them at Costco for me and I keep them stacked up at work View attachment 231341

Are these like the Uncle Ben's premade rice bags? You can leave them at room temp then nuke them for like 90 seconds and whallah!! I often keep a pack or two at work.

 

[Dustin07]

Are these like the Uncle Ben's premade rice bags? You can leave them at room temp then nuke them for like 90 seconds and whallah!!

Pretty much! I leave them in the cupboard then 60 seconds in the nuke machine, boom 71g of carbs

 

[MrKleen73]

Pretty much! I leave them in the cupboard then 60 seconds in the nuke machine, boom 71g of carbs

Quick response, I added that I keep some of those at work, they are a little more expensive, but I like the Uncle Ben's flavored ones a lot! The Spanish Rice one is really enjoyable.

 

[Dustin07]

Quick response, I added that I keep some of those at work, they are a little more expensive, but I like the Uncle Ben's flavored ones a lot! The Spanish Rice one is really enjoyable.

I might have to give that route a try!
We had picked these up at Costco one day sorta on a whim for the sake of pre-workout and then it just became routine that we'd top off with the same ones. I'm not picky if I can save money and get that extra 50-80g of carbs in preworkout then it's solid! I LOVE lifting carbed up.

 

[MrKleen73]

I might have to give that route a try!
We had picked these up at Costco one day sorta on a whim for the sake of pre-workout and then it just became routine that we'd top off with the same ones. I'm not picky if I can save money and get that extra 50-80g of carbs in preworkout then it's solid! I LOVE lifting carbed up.

It's great for a change up. The bags have anywhere from 70-90g of carbs depending on which bag you get. The cilantro and lime is good too, so is the garlic whole grain mix, it has quinoa in it too.

@GreenMachineX I posted up about an accountability thread in my log you might want to get in on. @Dustin07 already mentioned you in his thread but mentioning it again.

 

[GreenMachineX]

It's great for a change up. The bags have anywhere from 70-90g of carbs depending on which bag you get. The cilantro and lime is good too, so is the garlic whole grain mix, it has quinoa in it too.

@GreenMachineX I posted up about an accountability thread in my log you might want to get in on. @Dustin07 already mentioned you in his thread but mentioning it again.

Thanks. I saw it. I'm not nearly as committed as you guys, so I'll consider it, but unlikely I'll accomplish much.

 

[MrKleen73]

Thanks. I saw it. I'm not nearly as committed as you guys, so I'll consider it, but unlikely I'll accomplish much.

Got ya, I have actually had a hard time remaining committed which is why I decided to create the thread. It is far easier to stick to it with something like this going on for me.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Got ya, I have actually had a hard time remaining committed which is why I decided to create the thread. It is far easier to stick to it with something like this going on for me.

Gotcha. Make sense. Well, not sure what I did wrong yesterday, but still been up since 4:30 and hit with the PEM feeling even though kcal/carbs were in the right place and avoided known triggers. Going to bench through it though

 

[MrKleen73]

Gotcha. Make sense. Well, not sure what I did wrong yesterday, but still been up since 4:30 and hit with the PEM feeling even though kcal/carbs were in the right place and avoided known triggers. Going to bench through it though

Soldier On Sir!!!!
It might just be that there is no way to push yourself that far with Deads and not have some PEM. Could be a lift you just have to use a straight progression style set up, keeping RPE no higher than 8. Also keep in mind an RPE8 is not 2 RIR, it is an estimated/perceived 80% of maximum effort that normally results in 2-4 reps left in the tank. You are definitely quickly approaching an RPE9 if you get to 2 RIR. More like 8.5-8.75RPE. That is why they use RPE for strength training and typically use RIR for hypertrophy. They are not completely interchangeable although they do intersect in some ways.

 

[Hyde]

Are these like the Uncle Ben's premade rice bags? You can leave them at room temp then nuke them for like 90 seconds and whallah!! I often keep a pack or two at work.

The uncle bens have added vegetable seed oils /fats.

The Bibigo are awesome, pure sticky white rice with no added fat - much better than the Ben’s. You cannot get the Bibigo here, and I actually buy them off Amazon. 60-70 seconds and they are hot!

Bens is fine for regular eating as a backup food, but periWO the Bibigo are easily superior.

 

[MrKleen73]

The uncle bens have added vegetable seed oils /fats.

The Bibigo are awesome, pure sticky white rice with no added fat - much better than the Ben’s. You cannot get the Bibigo here, and I actually buy them off Amazon. 60-70 seconds and they are hot!

Bens is fine for regular eating as a backup food, but periWO the Bibigo are easily superior.

Do you prescribe to the low fat pre workout then? Looks like you do. I found a little fat in my preworkout meal to help keep me from going hypo during training but this is also when I am not using intra carbs. With the intra carbs, I am sure there is no benefit of a little fat since I am driving carbs into my system the whole time.

 

[MrKleen73]

Actually, it was when I was working with Alex Kikel I found this out. He started having me to eat a snickers bar preworkout because sometimes I would get a little hypo. The energy was so strong and consistent, and he said it was from having the fat to slow the release of the carbs during my workout plus getting in a little extra sodium.

 

[Hyde]

Do you prescribe to the low fat pre workout then? Looks like you do. I found a little fat in my preworkout meal to help keep me from going hypo during training but this is also when I am not using intra carbs. With the intra carbs, I am sure there is no benefit of a little fat since I am driving carbs into my system the whole time.

Not from vegetable oils, no; they are just inflammatory trash that do not stabilize energy that well.

Egg yolk, nuts, nut butter, saturated animal fat (meat, milk) are much better for my energy stability & satiety I’ve found. So a 2-cup bowl of Raisin Bran with Fairlife milk, or a Bibigo with a couple eggs, or a Cliffbar at home and then a Rice Krispy on the way to the gym are all things that I have found work very well for a morning session for me. And I drink 65g carbs intra over the next 2 hours.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Not from vegetable oils, no; they are just inflammatory trash that do not stabilize energy that well.

Egg yolk, nuts, nut butter, saturated animal fat (meat, milk) are much better for my energy stability & satiety I’ve found. So a 2-cup bowl of Raisin Bran with Fairlife milk, or a Bibigo with a couple eggs, or a Cliffbar at home and then a Rice Krispy on the way to the gym are all things that I have found work very well for a morning session for me. And I drink 65g carbs intra over the next 2 hours.

So for morning training, you might only get 20g protein?

 

[GreenMachineX]

Soldier On Sir!!!!
It might just be that there is no way to push yourself that far with Deads and not have some PEM. Could be a lift you just have to use a straight progression style set up, keeping RPE no higher than 8. Also keep in mind an RPE8 is not 2 RIR, it is an estimated/perceived 80% of maximum effort that normally results in 2-4 reps left in the tank. You are definitely quickly approaching an RPE9 if you get to 2 RIR. More like 8.5-8.75RPE. That is why they use RPE for strength training and typically use RIR for hypertrophy. They are not completely interchangeable although they do intersect in some ways.

It never occurred to me that the PEM might have been from DL 2 days prior. It used to only last 24 hours, so I just assumed. But I think your right. Guess i need to dial it back more. Ugh.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Weight: 219.4

BB Bench 4 x 5, 5, 5, 4 x 225
Incline Cable Press 12x17.5, 2 x 10 x 19
Cable Upright Row 3 x 10, 9, 9 x 42.5
Double Rope Pressdown 3 x 12, 12, 11 x 30

20 minutes incline walking, 3mph on 5.0 incline.

PEM doesn't stop performance it seems! Bench moving up nicely.

In this workout, I have 3 Cable movements. Anyone think I should swap either the Upright Row or Pressdown for noncable movements? The only other direct-ish triceps work I get is close grip bench, and DB Lateral Raise for Lateral delts.

 

[MrKleen73]

Weight: 219.4

BB Bench 4 x 5, 5, 5, 4 x 225
Incline Cable Press 12x17.5, 2 x 10 x 19
Cable Upright Row 3 x 10, 9, 9 x 42.5
Double Rope Pressdown 3 x 12, 12, 11 x 30

PEM doesn't stop performance it seems! Bench moving up nicely.

In this workout, I have 3 Cable movements. Anyone think I should swap either the Upright Row or Pressdown for noncable movements? The only other direct-ish triceps work I get is close grip bench, and DB Lateral Raise for Lateral delts.

The Cable press is going to be a little less intensive on triceps in my opinion. So if you feel your triceps are not getting what they need you can do that for sure. I forgot if you train at home or a gym but a good hammer Strength Style incline would be a great replacement for a little more drive in the triceps. You could also just add some cell swelling work to the end of another session. Just pick a weight and push for 100 continuous reps even if you have to go into partial to finish them. The weight is so light there really isn't muscular damage to speak of, just a lot of metabolic hypertrophy signalling, and cell swelling that stimulates hypertrophy as well. Another option is replace the Double Rope Press down with CG bench, JM Press or the like.

 

[GreenMachineX]

The Cable press is going to be a little less intensive on triceps in my opinion. So if you feel your triceps are not getting what they need you can do that for sure. I forgot if you train at home or a gym but a good hammer Strength Style incline would be a great replacement for a little more drive in the triceps. You could also just add some cell swelling work to the end of another session. Just pick a weight and push for 100 continuous reps even if you have to go into partial to finish them. The weight is so light there really isn't muscular damage to speak of, just a lot of metabolic hypertrophy signalling, and cell swelling that stimulates hypertrophy as well. Another option is replace the Double Rope Press down with CG bench, JM Press or the like.

Well, I wanted to keep the incline cable press to focus on that inner middle chest area. But maybe I should just add another tri exercise to a different day. I do CG Bench on Monday already, but I have considered moving it to after standing press, and doing something different on DL day. I don't know. For so many years, I was all "compounds only!!!@#", and now, well, I'm not but that feeling lingers.

 

[MrKleen73]

If you are doing them already on another day I would think you would be okay with your current set up. Also the reason I picked a Hammer Strength style incline press is that it will still hit the inner pecs hard since the hands still come into the centerline of the body with them. I think I go even more across the chest with them than I do with cable press, and with much heavier weights.

 

[Dustin07]

Got ya, I have actually had a hard time remaining committed which is why I decided to create the thread. It is far easier to stick to it with something like this going on for me.

since today is my rest day i'm on a 24hr fast till dinner and for whatever reason this short fast has been the hardest. I could really go for a burrito right now lol

In this workout, I have 3 Cable movements. Anyone think I should swap either the Upright Row or Pressdown for noncable movements? The only other direct-ish triceps work I get is close grip bench, and DB Lateral Raise for Lateral delts.

Why not dips?
I love cable work for hypertrophy and I feel like I can "over do it" because it's just so much less taxing long term than barbell work. recovery is insane but I'm not convinced they really make me much stronger.

 

[GreenMachineX]

since today is my rest day i'm on a 24hr fast till dinner and for whatever reason this short fast has been the hardest. I could really go for a burrito right now lol



Why not dips?
I love cable work for hypertrophy and I feel like I can "over do it" because it's just so much less taxing long term than barbell work. recovery is insane but I'm not convinced they really make me much stronger.

What do you mean by recovery is insane? And not convinced what make your stronger?

 

[GreenMachineX]

If you are doing them already on another day I would think you would be okay with your current set up. Also the reason I picked a Hammer Strength style incline press is that it will still hit the inner pecs hard since the hands still come into the centerline of the body with them. I think I go even more across the chest with them than I do with cable press, and with much heavier weights.

Thanks, I'll look into the hammer Strength incline press. I'm not sure my gym has that. But i workout both at home and the gym.

Edit: Oh that! Yes, they do have that. I'll switch to that. Thanks.

 

[Dustin07]

What do you mean by recovery is insane? And not convinced what make your stronger?

I don't get doms or fatigue from machines or cables. I can get a hella good pump from some tricep rope push downs etc and I enjoy them but in a few hours I'm recovered. I enjoy it but I think 99% of my strength gains come from the barbell and from rest. (or dumbbell).

I mean for example monday I couldn't get a squat rack so I tried to destroy my legs with machines. I was crawling out of the leg press after 20-40 rep sets but yesterday and today, no doms. Had I done that many reps with a light way front squat or back squat I'd still be dead today.

Yesterday I blasted the hell out of my triceps after benching with all cable work, which I enjoyed and got a killer pump, but I feel great today, had I done that with dips and incline or db work, kickbacks etc I'd still be wrecked today probably

 

[GreenMachineX]

I don't get doms or fatigue from machines or cables. I can get a hella good pump from some tricep rope push downs etc and I enjoy them but in a few hours I'm recovered. I enjoy it but I think 99% of my strength gains come from the barbell and from rest. (or dumbbell).

I mean for example monday I couldn't get a squat rack so I tried to destroy my legs with machines. I was crawling out of the leg press after 20-40 rep sets but yesterday and today, no doms. Had I done that many reps with a light way front squat or back squat I'd still be dead today.

Yesterday I blasted the hell out of my triceps after benching with all cable work, which I enjoyed and got a killer pump, but I feel great today, had I done that with dips and incline or db work, kickbacks etc I'd still be wrecked today probably

Oh i gotcha, yeah same here. Well, kind of. I still get doms from almost everything, just not as much from cables

 

[MrKleen73]

since today is my rest day i'm on a 24hr fast till dinner and for whatever reason this short fast has been the hardest. I could really go for a burrito right now lol



Why not dips?
I love cable work for hypertrophy and I feel like I can "over do it" because it's just so much less taxing long term than barbell work. recovery is insane but I'm not convinced they really make me much stronger.

Dips are an amazing option!

I don't get doms or fatigue from machines or cables. I can get a hella good pump from some tricep rope push downs etc and I enjoy them but in a few hours I'm recovered. I enjoy it but I think 99% of my strength gains come from the barbell and from rest. (or dumbbell).

I mean for example monday I couldn't get a squat rack so I tried to destroy my legs with machines. I was crawling out of the leg press after 20-40 rep sets but yesterday and today, no doms. Had I done that many reps with a light way front squat or back squat I'd still be dead today.

Yesterday I blasted the hell out of my triceps after benching with all cable work, which I enjoyed and got a killer pump, but I feel great today, had I done that with dips and incline or db work, kickbacks etc I'd still be wrecked today probably

There is a difference between systemic fatigue caused by a squat, DL or Pull up that can hit you for a couple of days as mentioned, and doing something that is far less systemically fatiguing. This does not actually mean that it is not stimulating the muscle as successfully. Also you might find that while a 20 rep set of leg press didn't make you sore 3-5 heavier harder sets of 10 might get you there. Load has more of a chance of doing muscular damage that needs repair.

The point of the isolation triceps movements for strength training is actually volume accrual to drive hypertrophy. So the strength increase you realize from these are much slower and come from actually having bigger triceps instead of neural efficiency in heavy lifts. However, a bigger muscle is going to be stronger, and then having neural efficiency on top of that will be that much stronger. That is why you often see PL guys doing sets of 3-5 on the big 3, but the accessories tend to be in the 6-12 range for growth. Now if you simply don't have time for them then shaving them off makes more sense than limiting strength stimulation by doing less sets of the compound movements. However the point of them in "your" training is additional volume for hypertrophy specifically.

Oh i gotcha, yeah same here. Well, kind of. I still get doms from almost everything, just not as much from cables

I barely get DOMS now, if I do it is almost always gone by the end of the following day. Typically for a new movement, or newly rotated back in movement. My body just got very efficient at clearing the metabolic factors that cause it to stick around over the 38 years I have been lifting. My adductors are something this still happens with but to be fair I never did direct adductor training until recently so that particular muscle has not been exposed to that stuff enough to be efficient at removing it yet.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Hey you’d asked about getting Thiamine intake. I picked this up today for my son to occasionally sprinkle “golden pixie dust” on his food for the extra B vitamins - it tasted really good, very subtle but if like anything like cheese flakes. It’s in the umami class of flavors. I put it on my eggs and potatoes & will continue to use it. He was wetting his fingers and eating it straight off of them!

View attachment 228729
View attachment 228730

3g of this stuff hits most of your B needs for the day, and 9mg Niacin.

Just ordered some of this, but the nonfortified type. How much do you use per day?

 

[MrKleen73]

Just ordered some of this, but the nonfortified type. How much do you use per day?

Looks like he does 3g, or at least recommends 3 grams a day from the post.

 

[Hyde]

So for morning training, you might only get 20g protein?

I usually drink a cup of Bone Broth with 9g collagen protein. 2 cups of Raisin Bran and 1 cup Fairlife is 23g, and 2 eggs with a Bibigo is 20g if I go that route. 2 Cliffbars is 18-22g if I wanted that.

Then there’s 10g BCAA in my intra which is loaded with carbs (releasing insulin which suppresses cortisol & drives nitrogen retention). Then as soon as I get home I have 48g of whey and 11g collagen peptides.

So I consume ~70g complete protein periWO, along with 20g collagen and 10g BCAAs, and 130-250g carbs. It’s an anabolic storm ️

Looks like he does 3g, or at least recommends 3 grams a day from the post.

Yeah, that was showing him what he could take potentially. I don’t use it basally. I have red meat most days, eat a couple eggs several times a week, and take a B50 complex from Swanson most days currently so I’m pretty covered in the B vitamin department.

 

[GreenMachineX]

BB Row 12x95, 3 x 10 x 115
Squat Top Set 5 x 235
EZ Curl 3 x 10 x 50

20 minute incline walking, 3.0mph, alternating 5.0 to 8.0 incline every minute or so.

After the deload week, I decided to stick with the very slow controlled barbell Row form, instead of my usual mild "heave" up. Didn't push squats too hard either to work back up to where I was. I'll start 5's week on that next week based on 325 1rm squat.

 

[Resolve10]

Soldier On Sir!!!!
It might just be that there is no way to push yourself that far with Deads and not have some PEM. Could be a lift you just have to use a straight progression style set up, keeping RPE no higher than 8. Also keep in mind an RPE8 is not 2 RIR, it is an estimated/perceived 80% of maximum effort that normally results in 2-4 reps left in the tank. You are definitely quickly approaching an RPE9 if you get to 2 RIR. More like 8.5-8.75RPE. That is why they use RPE for strength training and typically use RIR for hypertrophy. They are not completely interchangeable although they do intersect in some ways.

Probably semantics and it depends on who is prescribing, but RPE in (at least powerlifting circles) predated the RIR nomenclature (from my memory). RPE 8 had always been 2 reps left in the tank, 8.5 was maybe 2, 9 was 1, 9.5 was maybe 1 in the tank, etc.

Many did move to RIR because that tends to be how it is in the literature more often and RPE has so much literature in regards to endurance training that wires do seem to get crossed a bit when people read it.

At the end of the day RIR, RPE, or any type of nomenclature is really just about trying to get the proper prescription across. I use both interchangeably in MY training (for certain lifts), but I also have some specific different build up or approaches depending on what is written and a lot of times a good coach will select the wording, terms, or ideas based on how an athlete interprets them so that they can make the athlete shoot for the adequate intended stimulus of the training.

Sorry for the pedantry.

 

[MrKleen73]

Probably semantics and it depends on who is prescribing, but RPE in (at least powerlifting circles) predated the RIR nomenclature (from my memory). RPE 8 had always been 2 reps left in the tank, 8.5 was maybe 2, 9 was 1, 9.5 was maybe 1 in the tank, etc.

Many did move to RIR because that tends to be how it is in the literature more often and RPE has so much literature in regards to endurance training that wires do seem to get crossed a bit when people read it.

At the end of the day RIR, RPE, or any type of nomenclature is really just about trying to get the proper prescription across. I use both interchangeably in MY training (for certain lifts), but I also have some specific different build up or approaches depending on what is written and a lot of times a good coach will select the wording, terms, or ideas based on how an athlete interprets them so that they can make the athlete shoot for the adequate intended stimulus of the training.

Sorry for the pedantry.

No problem at all, the people I trust with this stuff like EliteFTS guys say RPE8 is 2-4 reps left in the tank. So that is what I go by. For a long time I treated them as the same too. Honestly though you can find charts that say it is 2 reps as well. Either way if you are getting within 2-4 reps within failing you are providing a good stimulus to the muscles. As long as increasing the intensity or volume you are going to make good progress.

This article is a great little refresher on RPE, and how to use it. https://www.elitefts.com/education/training/rate-of-perceived-exertion-rpe/ which I am sure is pretty much just as applicable to RIR as well.

In the end like you said it is really all a way of measuring the intensity of the set or rep, and keeping it within a very productive range for your training and goals.

 

[Resolve10]

Ya it can definitely be subjective to a degree and again the semantics don’t really matter if you stay consistent between yourself and what you mean by your descriptors.

That’s some of Mikes initial writings and he definitely refined it a bit more since writing that book. Even making specific RPE charts for percentages based on meet performance, but it’s still a great resource for those getting into using methods like that.

His work and philosophies have definitely come a long way tho and continue to shape my mindsets with training quite a bit.

 

[MrKleen73]

Ya it can definitely be subjective to a degree and again the semantics don’t really matter if you stay consistent between yourself and what you mean by your descriptors.

That’s some of Mikes initial writings and he definitely refined it a bit more since writing that book. Even making specific RPE charts for percentages based on meet performance, but it’s still a great resource for those getting into using methods like that.

His work and philosophies have definitely come a long way tho and continue to shape my mindsets with training quite a bit.

Oh, good to know! Thanks!

 

[GreenMachineX]

Alright...3 days in a row I've woken up at 3;30am and stuck awake, so only getting 5-6 hours again. I will say those hours feel like quality though. But it's getting to me. I need more. The things I've changed or messed with or suspected contributors in the past:

-went up to 8mg daily for a few days, but brought it back down around this starting
-egg consumption down to 2 usually in the morning, sometimes 3. I've thought in the past I needed 4 pee day for sleep
- haven't taken b12 orally in a couple weeks, only the shots, but this suspected made early morning wakeups worse
-nut and seed consumption-will stop eating so much pumpkin seeds
-too much beef?
-too much berries?

Can't decide if I'll workout today, but I'm supposed to. Guess we'll see how I feel by 6am and if I ever fall back asleep before then...or just train through it..

I should also mention I'm only taking:
-5k iu vit d3, sometimes 7500iu
-180iu mk7 vit k2 (a few times per week)
-200mg vit C magnesium ascorbate twice per day
-750mg epa/dha fish oil (maybe I need to bump up to 1.5g
-50mg niacin when irritability gets out of hand

These sleep issues are also happening even taking 3mg lunesta.

Edit: Eventually feel back asleep for about 30 minutes, so totaled a bit less than 6 hours last night.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Standing OHP 4 x 8, 6, 6, 7 x 135
Pullup 3, 3, 3, 2 + 1 negative
DB Lateral Raise 3 x 10 x 17.5
BB Shrugs 12x135, 3 x 10 x 155
DB Curl 3 x 8 x 22.5

 

[MrKleen73]

Glad to see you chose to plow through it my man! Just so you know, I for one and impressed with your continued efforts through all of this. Lack of sleep, PEM, all of that sounds like a horrible experience so I commend you for keeping your head down and plowing through. That is how you win in the end, so you are on the right track. At risk of sounding fatherly... I am proud of how you keep on going even though it really has nothing to do with me. I wanted to let you know your continued efforts are inspiring!

 

[GreenMachineX]

Glad to see you chose to plow through it my man! Just so you know, I for one and impressed with your continued efforts through all of this. Lack of sleep, PEM, all of that sounds like a horrible experience so I commend you for keeping your head down and plowing through. That is how you win in the end, so you are on the right track. At risk of sounding fatherly... I am proud of how you keep on going even though it really has nothing to do with me. I wanted to let you know your continued efforts are inspiring!

Thanks. I appreciate that. I'm going to keep driving on!

 

[Hyde]

Most of the time, to progress actually in training, you have to go when it’s hard or you don’t feel great. It’s that discipline that gets you the results! No one day matters; it’s the consistency that does it.

 

[akboom87]

Standing OHP 4 x 8, 6, 6, 7 x 135
Pullup 3, 3, 3, 2 + 1 negative
DB Lateral Raise 3 x 10 x 17.5
BB Shrugs 12x135, 3 x 10 x 155
DB Curl 3 x 8 x 22.5

Glad to see you went!! Nice overhead work!!

 

[GreenMachineX]

Thanks for the support all. I plan to keep driving on through the muck and mire.

Interesting article: https://www.strongerbyscience.com/frequency-muscle/

Some stuff in there addressed things I felt uneasy on, particularly things like training again before being recovered and training the same muscle consecutive days in a row. I'm considering increasing frequency of certain body parts to 3x per week, such as chest, delts, arms and traps, especially since my kcal are a bit over maintenance now while dealing with the worsened insomnia.

Edit: I should note however, my muscle recovery is greatly enhanced. I was recovered in about 48 hours from 7 sets of chest on Thursday as an example. I think if I keep it cool with lower body cns fatigue, I can get more out of upper body training without digging myself in a hole. I don't recall at the moment who said this here, but I believe they were right. Too much tax from DL might be holding me back.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Slept a little better last night. Laid down and fell asleep right away, slept hard about 4 hours, then in and out of consciousness several times until 5:30, so the total was likely 7 hours. I know if it's not deep sleep they say it's not restorative, but several minisleeps in a row over a few hours feels better than none.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Slept a little better than the day before, so improving. Only difference was increasing vitamin C the past 2 days. Could be coincidence, who knows, but even my mood is better with about 1g vitamin C spread throughout the day, but I also know PEM is far worse with doses above 2g.

Workout later. Might start DL round 3 of 5/3/1, or go back to 3x3 80-90% like I did for years.

 

[Dustin07]

At risk of sounding fatherly... I am proud of how you keep on going even though it really has nothing to do with me. I wanted to let you know your continued efforts are inspiring!

Totally agree, the vibe in his thread has been a phenomenal improvement, it's been great to see things really picking up momentum

Most of the time, to progress actually in training, you have to go when it’s hard or you don’t feel great. It’s that discipline that gets you the results! No one day matters; it’s the consistency that does it.

I think almost all of my PRs happened on days where I felt like absolute crap but went through the motions out of discipline, then found myself flirting with, then attempting, and smashing a PR. It's so consistent for me that if I head into the gym feeling great I almost have a negativity gnawing at the back of my mind saying no way you're hitting PRs today, you feel way to good to be here lol

 

[MrKleen73]

Totally agree, the vibe in his thread has been a phenomenal improvement, it's been great to see things really picking up momentum




I think almost all of my PRs happened on days where I felt like absolute crap but went through the motions out of discipline, then found myself flirting with, then attempting, and smashing a PR. It's so consistent for me that if I head into the gym feeling great I almost have a negativity gnawing at the back of my mind saying no way you're hitting PRs today, you feel way to good to be here lol

That doesn't happen to me all that often, but it is such a let down when I feel like I am going to have a hell of a workout due to how I feel then as soon as I start training I feel weak and can't get much going at all. It's like I peaked for the workout before I got started and was already on the downside of training when I started.