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Best GDA for High Glycemic Carbohydrates

Hang on......before anyone jumps on the vanadyl bandwagon, read this:

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As an aside, there is an excellent explanation of insulin that in a way, invalidates SOME of the theories/uses of ALL GDA's. It's a nice read. Section: "Too Good to be True"

Whacked said:
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I've been meaning to post this but did not want to stir up any more drama. I would never use vanadyl as a healthy individual, personally.
 
I will not either now as well

mr.cooper69 said:
I've been meaning to post this but did not want to stir up any more drama. I would never use vanadyl as a healthy individual, personally.
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vanadium..

im looking for the one that shows saftey of inorganic vs organisc and absorption rates into vanadium sensitive tissue (kidney and bone).

basically VS from what ive seen in studies is superior due to lower tox, but still able to exert effects.
 
Vanadium, like any metal, can potentially be toxic at high levels. In the form of Vanadyl Sulfate it seems to be well tolerated in humans even at up to 300mg per day, while the recommended dose for diabetics I believe is around 100mg daily. In studies some people using this amount reported gastro problems.

While I wouldn't even recommend 100mg daily for the average person, as I think it's unnecessary, I myself have used 40mg daily for 8 weeks at a time with no problems at all (10mg, 4x daily).

VS is one of many GDA's, and has been shown to help diabetics significantly with insulin/blood glucose problems, and even has helped lower blood cholesterol levels in numerous studies. I wouldn't completely write it off as it's very effective and shown to be well tolerated in small amounts.

But again, I'm not here to defend VS. All I'm saying is from what I've read, in small amounts (VS, not VANADIUM) it doesn't seem to be toxic in humans.

10mg before and 10mg halfway through my 300g carb weekly cheat meal and I wake up lean and dry the next morning.
 
Good stuff SS

ssbackwards said:
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vanadium..
im looking for the one that shows saftey of inorganic vs organisc and absorption rates into vanadium sensitive tissue (kidney and bone).

basically VS from what ive seen in studies is superior due to lower tox, but still able to exert effects.
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Clem: Thats the kinda feedback that means the most! Good stuff! ;)

Are you a low carb guy?

Clemenza said:
10mg before and 10mg halfway through my 300g carb weekly cheat meal and I wake up lean and dry the next morning.
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Whacked said:
Good stuff SS



Clem: Thats the kinda feedback that means the most! Good stuff! ;)

Are you a low carb guy?
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I've always had a love/hate relationship with carbs. As I'm sure most people do. If I don't have enough carbs I get flat very easily. If I have too many or the wrong carbs I get soft and watery. It's a never ending battle lol. I like to carb cycle, and the amounts depend on if I'm cutting, bulking or maintaining.

I really love Anabolic Pump. Out of all the carb and GDA experimenting I've done over the years I've found AP the best at actually keeping blood sugar low and helping fill the muscle with glycogen without spillover.

But in all honestly, with that avi you got I should be asking you what you do. You're shredded!
 
Great book.I wish this dude was still alive to continue to push the envelope the unique, intelligent way with which he did and so successfully.

Clemenza said:
I've had this book sitting in my living room for a year and still haven't gotten a chance to read it. I heard there's some great info in there.
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Apparent absorption of [SUP]48[/SUP]V-BMOV was greater than that of [SUP]48[/SUP]VS. The primary route of elimination was via the feces. On the basis of compartmental analysis of combined data sets (experiments A andB), 75% of[SUP]48[/SUP]VS and 62% of[SUP]48[/SUP]V-BMOV were excreted unabsorbed in the feces within 24 h after oral gavage. Although the time frame of this experiment was too short to accurately determine absorption, the model-predicted apparent vanadium absorption was 25% for[SUP]48[/SUP]VS and 38% for[SUP]48[/SUP]V-BMOV. These values are most likely a considerable overestimate of vanadium absorption because they are based on estimates from 24-h data sets only. The model-predicted absorption values were adequate to indicate a trend toward greater absorption of [SUP]48[/SUP]V-BMOV compared with [SUP]48[/SUP]VS, ∼1.5 times greater.
The bone-to-kidney-to-liver ratios of[SUP]48[/SUP]V concentrations (in %AD/g) 24 h after oral gavage predicted by the model were 0.3265:0.1163:0.082 for[SUP]48[/SUP]V-BMOV and 0.1131:0.0856:0.0212 for [SUP]48[/SUP]VS (Table1). Thus the proportions of[SUP]48[/SUP]V taken up by bone, kidney, and liver after [SUP]48[/SUP]V-BMOV treatment were ∼3, 1.4, and 4 times, respectively, greater than those after[SUP]48[/SUP]VS treatment. Averaging the increased uptake into liver, kidney, and bone resulted in a ratio of[SUP]48[/SUP]V-BMOV to[SUP]48[/SUP]VS uptake of 2.7. With total tissue weight accounted for, the principal uptakes of[SUP]48[/SUP]V with use of an oral dose of BMOV vs. that of VS were 0.82 vs. 0.21% in liver, 0.23 vs. 0.17% in kidney, 1.14 vs. 0.67% in muscle, 3.55 vs. 2.73% in blood, and 8.62 vs. 2.99% in bone, on the basis of model-predicted compartmental masses at 24 h after gavage.


FULL STUDY

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been taking Vs since 2004 when I joined here. cant take it in too high doses, makes me run bad and BMOV works much better without the runs. Its kind of like yohimbine hcl and alpha yohimbine the comparison

our glycobol has BMOv along with many other insulin mimetics including my favorite na-r-ala. so maybe it wasnt the na-r-ala that caused the glucometer test to read parrell with taking real insulin, two glycobols read to where 10 ius read, on the glucometer test. In conclusion, it was all our insulin mimetics that caused the glucometer to
very much mimetic real insulin-glycobol is strong stuff. Buy it today at am store or Invalid Link Removed
and feel free to pm me for a code if you buy from our store that gets 30 % off

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In fact im posting all of our insulin mimetics in glycobol

Sodium R-Lipoate (Na-r-ALA)
ALA is naturally produced in the body as a mitochondrial enzyme cofactor. It is important to aerobic metabolism. ALA has been shown to increase cellular uptake of glucose to cell membranes by recruiting the glucose transporter GLUT4. ALA improves skeletal muscle glucose transport, resulting in desirable blood glucose disposal and increased muscle glycogen concentrations. (1) Studies also indicate that in muscle, ALA is a potent anti-oxidant which protects cells from oxidative stress-induced insulin resistance. (2) The ALA used in this formula is chemically stabilized and of the highest quality. It’s the most active isomer and the highest potency salt commercially available. ALA is an invaluable addition that offers a multitude of benefits plus countless extras for any serious athlete.
Bottom Line: Best way to describe this effect is that it almost adds a filter to the muscle fibers; Taking in what it needs to prepare for growth.
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Trigonella Seed isolate (standardized to 10% 4-hydroxyisoleucine)
Fenugreek has been successfully applied for thousands of years to improve health. It corrects blood sugar problems and improves cholesterol scores. Modern research also shows that it improves endurance and lowers blood lactate concentrations dramatically. Treatment with fenugreek seed can also significantly decreases fat accumulation. These results suggest that this improvement in endurance and reduction in body fat is caused by an increase in the utilization of fatty acids as an energy source. (3) Fenugreek supplements high in 4-HIL have also been demonstrated to increase post-exercise glycogen resynthesis in athletes, which promotes rapid recovery and helps prevent training fatigue. (4) The visible results of this glycogenic effect are big, pumped muscles that look extremely full and vascular.
Bottom Line: Helps you use fatty acids as an energy source, rather than store them as Fat!
Phellodendron extract (standardized to 90% berberine)
Phellodendron is one of the highly valued traditional Chinese herbs, used medicinally to treat a variety of health conditions. It is reported that some subjects show improved strength, lower blood pressure, and lower blood sugar in response to Phellodendron isolates. Laboratory studies suggest that one of these alkaloidal isolates called berberine may accomplish these benefits by enhancing insulin production. (5) There are also many studies that suggest berberine can reduce total serum cholesterol, dangerous LDL-cholesterol, and unhealthy triglycerides, which would obviously contribute greatly to increased athletic performance and good over-all health. (6) Improved health and increased physical performance translates into greater strength and muscle gains in the gym.
Bottom Line: Increased performance translates into greater strength and muscle gains.
Cinnamon Bark 20:1 extract (standardized for 16% flavonoids)
Cinnamon is a common spice used all over the world, but it’s not commonly known that the spice has significant therapeutic value. Cinnamon contains the element chromium, which is needed for proper glucose metabolism, and also compounds called flavonoids. Flavinoids are potent anti-oxidants which are known to provide protection against cancer and heart disease. The specific flavonoids found in cinnamon bark are shown to stimulate glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis similar to insulin. These flavonoids may activate receptors by direct insulin mimicking action, or indirect insulin potentiation, or both. (7) Studies also show that cinnamon improves lipid profiles for some subjects. (8) If you train consistently and have a healthy diet, your big muscular improvements from this powerful little cinnamon extract might surprise you.
Bottom Line: Insulin is very anabolic, so the insulin boosting action of cinnamon extract will be bigger, stronger muscles.
Bis(Maltolato)Oxovanadium (BMOV)
BMOV is an organic form of the mineral vanadium. Although elemental vanadium and inorganic salts of vanadium show significant biological potential, it has a poor therapeutic index due to low gastrointestinal absorbance. BMOV is recognized as safer, more absorbable, and able to deliver a therapeutic effect up to 50% greater than the inorganic forms. (9) Vanadium is one of the rare microelements that can promote a profound boost in endurance and strongly support anabolism. BMOV can give muscles a hardness like you have never experience before. The form of vanadium used in this formula is one of the very best you can find, if not the best.
Bottom Line: Makes your Muscle harder than ever, increases vascularity!
 
I've had much more stomach stress with BMOV then VS especially in terms of the runs. At 150mg VS I got just a little gas. When I went up to 300 then I had stomach issuesBmov from what I remember 20mg = 50mg VS. BUT more absorption into bone kidney spleen than VS. So yes lower dose more absorption into those tissues and lower dose will cause stomach issuesDon't get me wrong I liked glycobol. But IMO better options. That's not to say that its not a great product because it is.
 
No disrespect intended, but did you even read the posts?

NO ONE (including Mr Cooper) is disputing the efficacy of these GDA's and what they do. NO ONE

WE ALL AGREE THAT THEY ASSIST IN CLEARING GLUCOSE OUT OF THE BLOOD (albeit via different mechanisms but the end result is similar)

The issue is the end result of the MOA and related unvalidated CLAIMS that in an unexercised state, these GDA's will preferentially shuttle carbs into myocytes/muscle cells verses fat cells.

THAT has been at the epicenter of all arguments for PAGES now. Where is the proof that this glucose is directed exclusively towards muscle cells only. With that, you will also have to provide an argument that these supps ALSO increasing gylcogen storage capacity in muscle cells b/c after all, the glucose HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE (and if it is NOT in liver or fat cells, there's only one choice left). IF I were to chose to be uber objective in my assessment, I would argue that AT BEST, there is an equal distribution of glucose into all 3 (but this is NOT my position).

John Smeton said:
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here are Vt's glucometer results. I recommend you take the time to read this log, you seem well researched like me who has spent literally hours researching many many days for hours at a time since about 2001 on bodybuilding and has been large and in charge for ten years now.
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See below. If GDA's either ACT LIKE linsulin or release more insulin......then the results will be the same AS INSULIN.
Fat Storage

Insulin

Example: When you eat a meal that contains carbohydrates, the presence of glucose, amino acid, or fatty acids in the intestine stimulates the pancreas to secrete a hormone called insulin. Insulin acts on many cells in your body, namely muscle and fat tissue and in the liver as well. Insulin tells the cells to do the following:
Absorb glucose, fatty acids and amino acids and transport them into fat cells, muscle cells or the liver.
Stop breaking down glucose, fatty acids and amino acids; glycogen into glucose; fats into fatty acids and glycerol; and proteins into amino acids
Start building glycogen from glucose; fats (triglycerides) from glycerol and fatty acids; and proteins from amino acids
The fatty acids are then absorbed from the blood into fat cells, muscle cells and liver cells. In these cells, under stimulation by insulin, fatty acids are made into fat molecules and stored as fat droplets and in adipose tisse.

It is also possible for fat cells to take up glucose and amino acids, which have been absorbed into the bloodstream after a meal, and convert those into fat molecules.
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.
 
ssbackwards said:
I've had much more stomach stress with BMOV then VS especially in terms of the runs. At 150mg VS I got just a little gas. When I went up to 300 then I had stomach issuesBmov from what I remember 20mg = 50mg VS. BUT more absorption into bone kidney spleen than VS. So yes lower dose more absorption into those tissues and lower dose will cause stomach issuesDon't get me wrong I liked glycobol. But IMO better options. That's not to say that its not a great product because it is.
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150 vs gave me super bad stomach distress and runs. even 30 mgs did it-The vs I used was ultimate nutritions 10 mgs9back in 2004 when I played with vs)

Whacked said:
N


See below. If GDA's either ACT LIKE linsulin or release more insulin......then the results will be the same AS INSULIN.


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.
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The reason I like to think it does is because the glucometer test on glycobol, which is a powerful insulin mimetic in my opinion; although you might be right. Maybe I misunderstood something somewhere or still have lack of knowledge in this area, and maybe I dont. I am sticking by my guns untill I understand otherwise. One thing is for sure, glycobol works and it works well as an insulin mimetic.
 
dammit i have been making myself fat -___- time for some keto ill save glybol for my bulk
 
Uptake into liver and muscle are first priority.When uptake into fat cells happen one of 2 things occur storage or adipogenesis.Storage is temporary. Hyperplasia is permanent. These products reduce fat cell droplet size, and reduce adipogenesis.Uptake isn't the issue as it is temporary, when liver and muscle cells are full. And they won't always be full with things like banaba (increased glycogenolysis). So there is increased uptake. Also. There is increased burning due to AMPk activationAlso PI3k pathway without Akt will increase uptake and block adipogenesis
 
ssbackwards said:
Uptake into liver and muscle are first priority.When uptake into fat cells happen one of 2 things occur storage or adipogenesis.Storage is temporary. Hyperplasia is permanent. These products reduce fat cell droplet size, and reduce adipogenesis.Uptake isn't the issue as it is temporary, when liver and muscle cells are full. And they won't always be full with things like banaba (increased glycogenolysis). So there is increased uptake. Also. There is increased burning due to AMPk activationAlso PI3k pathway without Akt will increase uptake and block adipogenesis
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I always enjoy your posts.
 
Sup SS

1) "Uptake into liver and muscle are first priority" That was way oversimplified IMHO. This this deprends on a wide array of other related variables such as current fed/fasted state, exercised/unexercised state, glycogen storage capacity, genetic predisposition/programming for fat accumulation, k/cal intake, other supplements/drugs being used along with a whole host of other factors.

2) "Storage is temporary. Hyperplasia is permanent." Storage IS temporary (just as it is in the muscles and liver), however, if/when this "energy" is not needed, it will be stored permanently (fat tissue = FAT!); hence the argument.

3) "These products reduce fat cell droplet size, and reduce adipogenesis" Please provide pubmed or other respectable cites to validate this claim as again, it is not so straight forward; especially IF other complicating criteria as mentioned above are present.

4) "When uptake into fat cells happen one of 2 things occur storage or adipogenesis". Couldn't have said it better myself; hence my point of all of this.

5) "There is increased burning due to AMPk activation". This is NOT a direct activity of these substances but INDIRECT - it is only true downstream "if" the GDA's were even able to succesfully shuttle the glucose into the myocytes (which will only occur in the proper environment as described above). Then, does such a secondary reaction take place unless you are referring to non-GDA specific substances that are added to some of these blends (which would necessitate a whole new discussion as these are unrelated to this particular topic).

Again, please also include ingredient-specific reseach/studies because there is a myriad of different substances/agents used in these GDA blends.

Thanks :)

ssbackwards said:
Uptake into liver and muscle are first priority.When uptake into fat cells happen one of 2 things occur storage or adipogenesis.Storage is temporary. Hyperplasia is permanent. These products reduce fat cell droplet size, and reduce adipogenesis.Uptake isn't the issue as it is temporary, when liver and muscle cells are full. And they won't always be full with things like banaba (increased glycogenolysis). So there is increased uptake. Also. There is increased burning due to AMPk activationAlso PI3k pathway without Akt will increase uptake and block adipogenesis
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Why not just stick with exercise. I'm missing the pojnt of what the appeal is on these GDA's (other than perhaps assisting in a more expeditious removal of glucose from the blood stream, and thus a concomitant reduced insulin requirement - which IS beneficial in SOME and in SOME scenarios).

I am willing to concede that there IS a need for GDA's....somewhere....I am just not certain what exactly the application would/could be and how valuable it would be with respect to "fat reduction" or lipogenic inhibition ......while ingesting carbs (given that THIS is primarily the user's objectives).

I guess for me personally, I gave up trying to be a carb-burner and in a sense, that is ONE thing these GDA's claim to be able to do. I am genetically wired to be a fat burner and remain lean as a result of fostering this mentality as opposed to attempting to manipulate it unsuccessfully.

Conversely, some people do well on carbs and poorly on fats. Perhaps for those folks that are on the fence or are gifted enough to be able to efficiently use both fuel sources (carbs and fats), then these GDAs might be an excellent adjunct for them. Metabolically speaking, since these types are so gifted in other areas germane to bb'ing (great hormone levels throughout), would they even need such a product?

Exercise/training Many Invalid Link Removed adaptations of skeletal muscle that take place during a single bout of Invalid Link Removed or an extended duration of Invalid Link Removed, such as increased mitochondrial biogenesis and capacity,[SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP][SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP] increased muscle Invalid Link Removed,[SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP] and an increase in Invalid Link Removed which specialize in glucose uptake in cells such as GLUT4 and Invalid Link Removed II [SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP][SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP] are thought to be mediated in part by AMPK when it is activated.[SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP][SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP] Additionally, recent discoveries can conceivably suggest a direct AMPK role in increasing Invalid Link Removed to exercised/trained muscle cells by stimulating and stabilizing both Invalid Link Removed and Invalid Link Removed.[SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP] Taken together, these Invalid Link Removed most likely transpire as a result of both temporary and maintained increases in AMPK activity brought about by increases in the AMP:ATP ratio during single bouts of exercise and long-term training.
During a single Invalid Link Removed exercise bout, AMPK allows the contracting muscle cells to adapt to the energy challenges by increasing expression of hexokinase II,[SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP] translocation of GLUT4 to the Invalid Link Removed,[SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP][SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP][SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP][SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP] for glucose uptake, and by stimulating glycolysis.[SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP] If bouts of exercise continue through a long-term Invalid Link Removed regimen, AMPK and other signals will facilitate contracting muscle adaptations by escorting muscle cell activity to a metabolic transition resulting in an Invalid Link Removed dependent approach to Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed as opposed to a Invalid Link Removed approach. AMPK accomplishes this transition to the oxidative mode of metabolism by upregulating and activating oxidative enzymes such as GLUT4, hexokinase II, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed and Invalid Link Removed.[SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP][SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP][SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP][SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP][SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP][SUP]Invalid Link Removed[/SUP]
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ssbackwards said:
So there is increased uptake. Also. There is increased burning due to AMPk activationAlso PI3k pathway without Akt will increase uptake and block adipogenesis
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mr.cooper69 said:
Don't use GDAs postworkout IMO. Muscle insulin sensitivity is already exactly where you want it to be. IF you so choose to use a GDA, agmatine + Na-R-ALA would be best.
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So you're saying it cannot be improved even further with the use of a gda pwo? Dr norton did a big uncontrolled experiment years back on bodybuilding dot com that suggested otherwise.
 
Whacked said:
There's an abuandance of "proof" that these exotic insulin mimetics/GDA's work to clear the nutrients from the blood more rapidly or efficiently. Heck, even vinegar does this.

There are also studies that reflect either improved glucose tolerance or increased insulin sensitvity.

Insulin moves glucose out of the blood by increasing the presence of a glucose transporter (GLUT4) on the surface of MANY different cells (FAT CELLS included!)

That said.......As expressed in my post above, the problem is that I have yet to see ONE compelling study that validates all these bogus claims that you can eat above your daily k/cal amount [or carb threshold (since we all metabolize/assimilate carbs differently)] + pop a few GDA caps and BOOM - no fat gain because magically, somehow, these OTC supplement companies have figured out a way to get carbs into the muscles as opposed to fat while Big Pharma hasn't. LOL

On that note: Anyone hear of the Diabetes medication Avandia (THE mack daddy Insulin Sensitizer)? Read about how effective this stuff shuttles glucose out of the blood. THEN, read about WHERE IT GOES! lolol A strong argument could be made that you're better off with your Diabetes than to take this garbage. Sure, lower your post-prandial glucose readings and blow up your waistline AND damage your heart too. I'll pass.

Cycle your carbs, ditch the simple sugars, favor low glycemic index carbs to avoid the scary boogey man insulin spikes all the GDAs are allegedly supposed to assist with.

As an aside, since we are always discussing PPAR's for fat loss on this board- Avandia is a PPARγ(gamma) agonist. This is the one PPAR that you want to antagonize (for fat loss, etc) and NOT agonize. I think CLA is an antagonist but the results were always hit or miss.
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But 90% of GLUT4 is expressed in skeletal muscle.
 
Powercage said:
Every stack should have Na-R-ALA imo for anti-ox purposes. Just get some Geronova and be done with it.
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Gernova pimps na-r-ala and it's pk all the time. But then proceeds to say that sustained release ala is detrimental because of the longer half life. Thought it was odd, but i haven't had a chance to break it down.
 
I don't really see the need to use GDA's pwo. Either you want to spike insulin, making GDA's useless. Or you want to keep insulin low, in which you would just eat a low gi carb. And like mr. cooper said, muscle insulin sensitivity is already heightened.

I think GDA's are best used:

A) On a cut, to keep blood sugar even lower than you normally would.
B) On a cheat meal high in carbs
C) If the GDA shows evidence of increasing GLUT-4 in skeletal muscle, like AP.
 
Royd The Noyd said:
So you're saying it cannot be improved even further with the use of a gda pwo? Dr norton did a big uncontrolled experiment years back on bodybuilding dot com that suggested otherwise.
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That's, again, not the point. Do you not agree that postworkout is the worst/most-redundant time to use a GDA?
 
mr.cooper69 said:
That's, again, not the point. Do you not agree that postworkout is the worst/most-redundant time to use a GDA?
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No i do not agree, or disagree really. Do you have evidence that shows you cannot further enhance insulin sensitivity by coadministration of a gda + exercise vs exercise alone? I'm sure there is a benefit ceiling but it's difficult to say where.

Glucose uptake post workout is also not only a result of the insulin response. Muscle contraction stimulates glucose uptake and has a residual effect pwo depending on intensity. But more importantly exercise improves insulin sensitivity for an extended period of time pwo (significantly more so than muscle contraction stimulated glucose uptake, and completely independent of elevated muscle GLUT4 I should add). So why not apply your gda at this time and potentially mimic the effect of a more intense workout. There is nothing I have read that suggests this isn't possible. It's arguably a better time to sustain the improved insulin sensitivity you achieved by exercising.

Of course that's ignoring probably at least ten other factors that play a role in skeletal muscle glucose uptake as well as the 400 different moa's of "gda's".
 
John Smeton said:
Glycobol which contains NA-R_ALA and some other nice insulin mimetics

Invalid Link Removed

you can find it on nutraplanet store or at our website-I have a code that can save you 30% on all our products at our website Invalid Link Removed just message me for it
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Thats one epic product, I leaned down quite a bit on it, and my carb sources are nothing but sugars, white rice, white poatoes, fruits......(low glycemic carbs are for wimps that don't do any stressful physical activity on a daily basis!)
 
TheHardOne said:
Thats one epic product, I leaned down quite a bit on it, and my carb sources are nothing but sugars, white rice, white poatoes, fruits......(low glycemic carbs are for wimps that don't do any stressful physical activity on a daily basis!)
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As did i but now i wonder if it assisted or hindered
 
Oogaly_boogal 's Post #57:

"My first run around with it I had success but I was also using erase/alpha yohimbe/ec and an insane workout regime "

To be fair, he was also on several other potent lipolytic substances. How could he possibly attribute his resutls to Glycobol? At the same time, I suppose one 'could' make the same argument with respect to the other supps he was on but that sure would be a stretch IMO.

I'm with Cooper. I do not see the need to include these PWO for ANYONE.

As far as using them in an unexercised state, since there are so many other variables at play, results will depend entirely on the individual.

TheHardOne said:
You leaned down while your were on it and you wonder if it assisted or hindered?
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Royd The Noyd said:
No i do not agree, or disagree really. Do you have evidence that shows you cannot further enhance insulin sensitivity by coadministration of a gda + exercise vs exercise alone? I'm sure there is a benefit ceiling but it's difficult to say where.

Glucose uptake post workout is also not only a result of the insulin response. Muscle contraction stimulates glucose uptake and has a residual effect pwo depending on intensity. But more importantly exercise improves insulin sensitivity for an extended period of time pwo (significantly more so than muscle contraction stimulated glucose uptake, and completely independent of elevated muscle GLUT4 I should add). So why not apply your gda at this time and potentially mimic the effect of a more intense workout. There is nothing I have read that suggests this isn't possible. It's arguably a better time to sustain the improved insulin sensitivity you achieved by exercising.

Of course that's ignoring probably at least ten other factors that play a role in skeletal muscle glucose uptake as well as the 400 different moa's of "gda's".
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I am aware of all of this, but a simple protein shake creates a carbohydrate-independent, bi-phasic insulin response that elevates protein synthesis to the highest achievable level...a level that is NOT further augmented by administration of carbohydrates. Taking a GDA postworkout thus seems to be the worst time.

And yeah, Na-R-ALA does not act like insulin despite the constant "I can equate this to XX IUs insulin" bs. If it was strictly insulin, totally different story.
 
TheHardOne said:
Thats one epic product, I leaned down quite a bit on it, and my carb sources are nothing but sugars, white rice, white poatoes, fruits......(low glycemic carbs are for wimps that don't do any stressful physical activity on a daily basis!)
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honestly im the same way.. i use all whites.. except oatmeal.
 
Whacked said:
Why not just stick with exercise. I'm missing the pojnt of what the appeal is on these GDA's (other than perhaps assisting in a more expeditious removal of glucose from the blood stream, and thus a concomitant reduced insulin requirement - which IS beneficial in SOME and in SOME scenarios).

I am willing to concede that there IS a need for GDA's....somewhere....I am just not certain what exactly the application would/could be and how valuable it would be with respect to "fat reduction" or lipogenic inhibition ......while ingesting carbs (given that THIS is primarily the user's objectives).

I guess for me personally, I gave up trying to be a carb-burner and in a sense, that is ONE thing these GDA's claim to be able to do. I am genetically wired to be a fat burner and remain lean as a result of fostering this mentality as opposed to attempting to manipulate it unsuccessfully.

Conversely, some people do well on carbs and poorly on fats. Perhaps for those folks that are on the fence or are gifted enough to be able to efficiently use both fuel sources (carbs and fats), then these GDAs might be an excellent adjunct for them. Metabolically speaking, since these types are so gifted in other areas germane to bb'ing (great hormone levels throughout), would they even need such a product?
Click to expand...


Short and sweet, my thoughts are people want to keep there insulin levels normal through out the day, that's why the old sayings are multiple meals and complex carbs. With a GDA it allows you to "indulge" in carbs and try and keep your insulin levels balanced....


SLINshot :)



-I'm no expert by any means, just have my own belief to the posting I made above.
 
Wasn't there some study on having constant elevated blood sugar (i.e. constant insulin levels) bad for insulin sensitivity?
I can't remember correctly. I'll try to dig it out when I have access to a PC.
 
criticalbench said:
honestly im the same way.. i use all whites.. except oatmeal.
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Damn you're lucky! Too much white carbs and I start looking like a balloon. Its a shame because I love white potatoes. Loaded with potassium.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
And I hope people on this site realize that this is perfectly ok in the context of a micronutrient-rich diet. Combining carbs with any fat or protein lowers the GI right away, rendering it irrelevant.
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So very true...that's why all talk about GI is a red herring. Just some a small amount of fat and protein to a high GI meal it will bring it right down. A bar of snickers measuring only as moderate on the GI scale, ei 50 ish.
 
I have to say GDAs are helpful for those unlucky few, like me, who are of the skinny fat phenotype. You can't do without fats or carbs and cannot add muscle unless you eat, but when you do east you add more fat than muscle. GDAs have been invaluable for me. It allows me to eat maintenance or just above, add muscle with no or little fat.
 
UKNoko said:
Wasn't there some study on having constant elevated blood sugar (i.e. constant insulin levels) bad for insulin sensitivity?
I can't remember correctly. I'll try to dig it out when I have access to a PC.
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That is true, but thats why we have intense weight training sessions, HIIT cardio, and omega 3 oils to ensure we stay more insulin sensitive.
 
Clemenza said:
Damn you're lucky! Too much white carbs and I start looking like a balloon. Its a shame because I love white potatoes. Loaded with potassium.
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criticalbench gets extremely lean and the leaner a person gets the more they can get away with fast acting carbohydrates

criticalbench said:
honestly im the same way.. i use all whites.. except oatmeal.
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are you using them right now two weeks out?

saggy321 said:
So very true...that's why all talk about GI is a red herring. Just some a small amount of fat and protein to a high GI meal it will bring it right down. A bar of snickers measuring only as moderate on the GI scale, ei 50 ish.
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You can use that if your not a contest bodybuilding or if your one in the offseason.

ever tried to diet down to sub par levels? I have done it both ways low gi and high gi only post workout and some in morning and if a person is not very lean or ripped, it very well helps fat-loss in my opinion and experience.

saggy321 said:
I have to say GDAs are helpful for those unlucky few, like me, who are of the skinny fat phenotype. You can't do without fats or carbs and cannot add muscle unless you eat, but when you do east you add more fat than muscle. GDAs have been invaluable for me. It allows me to eat maintenance or just above, add muscle with no or little fat.
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I disagree, ive always been a fan since day one , 2004 , they sure help. I mean have you ever taking yellow gold, or oslin , or r-ala or anabolic pump or glycobol at a moderate or even higher dose and waited? I have and I got the low blood sugar effect from insulin. try it out as an experiment one time, and make sure once you get this effect, make sure you get carbs in ASAP when you start to feel like this. Youll know when you feel it you cant talk right, you cant think right your fainy, dainty and dizzy, confused and your only goal is to get carbs in immediately. (ive done this on accident twice dosing pslin back in 2007, and glycobol back in 2011)
 
Actually would have to agree, glycobol makes me hypoglycemic if i don't eat.
 
oogaly_boogal said:
Actually would have to agree, glycobol makes me hypoglycemic if i don't eat.
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I don't think an OTC product can actually put you into a state of Hypoglycemia. You may get somewhat low blood sugar, but I doubt you can actually become hypo. I know people with diabetes that have actually gone into Hypoglycemia and they have to be hospitalized because other wise they can go into a coma....
 
T-Bone said:
I don't think an OTC product can actually put you into a state of Hypoglycemia. You may get somewhat low blood sugar, but I doubt you can actually become hypo. I know people with diabetes that have actually gone into Hypoglycemia and they have to be hospitalized because other wise they can go into a coma....
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try my experiment with any of the GDA's dont eat for 45-60 mins afterwards and take a moderate dose it makes you feel like ****

(the two I went into it were pslin and Glycobol)
 
T-Bone said:
I don't think an OTC product can actually put you into a state of Hypoglycemia. You may get somewhat low blood sugar, but I doubt you can actually become hypo. I know people with diabetes that have actually gone into Hypoglycemia and they have to be hospitalized because other wise they can go into a coma....
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There are varying levels of severity. Despite earlier posts in this thread, GDAs clearly aren't getting you anywhere near what insulin-induced hypogylcemia manifests itself as.
 
T-Bone said:
I don't think an OTC product can actually put you into a state of Hypoglycemia. You may get somewhat low blood sugar, but I doubt you can actually become hypo. I know people with diabetes that have actually gone into Hypoglycemia and they have to be hospitalized because other wise they can go into a coma....
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Nope i have passed out before, im not the kind of guy that goes to the doctors, unless i really have to.

That being said to each their own, i guess ill stick with my glycobol and just rotate my diet around it
 
Whacked said:
Sup SS

1) "Uptake into liver and muscle are first priority" That was way oversimplified IMHO. This this deprends on a wide array of other related variables such as current fed/fasted state, exercised/unexercised state, glycogen storage capacity, genetic predisposition/programming for fat accumulation, k/cal intake, other supplements/drugs being used along with a whole host of other factors.

2) "Storage is temporary. Hyperplasia is permanent." Storage IS temporary (just as it is in the muscles and liver), however, if/when this "energy" is not needed, it will be stored permanently (fat tissue = FAT!); hence the argument.

3) "These products reduce fat cell droplet size, and reduce adipogenesis" Please provide pubmed or other respectable cites to validate this claim as again, it is not so straight forward; especially IF other complicating criteria as mentioned above are present.

4) "When uptake into fat cells happen one of 2 things occur storage or adipogenesis". Couldn't have said it better myself; hence my point of all of this.

5) "There is increased burning due to AMPk activation". This is NOT a direct activity of these substances but INDIRECT - it is only true downstream "if" the GDA's were even able to succesfully shuttle the glucose into the myocytes (which will only occur in the proper environment as described above). Then, does such a secondary reaction take place unless you are referring to non-GDA specific substances that are added to some of these blends (which would necessitate a whole new discussion as these are unrelated to this particular topic).

Again, please also include ingredient-specific reseach/studies because there is a myriad of different substances/agents used in these GDA blends.

Thanks :)
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I will respond to this with adequate resources when i have time. i am in the caribbean now
 
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