Acetyl L-Carnitine (Alcar) and the Anarchy Stack...post in here!

[goin_big]

Hey breezed try some citrus, the oj might mix it up better.

 

[LunaHotel]

These studies seem to show that even small dosages of CLA will lower leptin, but doesn't change appetite. They also indicate that CLA will eventually induce insulin resistance, which is reversed by leptin administration...

Well there is a supplement called "leptigen" which is supposed to raise leptin. So I guess for someone ingesting close to 20g CLA a day, this is also required for long-term benefit... Or cycling the bloddy-expensive stuff, instead of adding another expensive supplement to this stack?


Conjugated linoleic acid supplementation reduces adipose tissue by apoptosis and develops lipodystrophy in mice.

Tsuboyama-Kasaoka N, Takahashi M, Tanemura K, Kim HJ, Tange T, Okuyama H, Kasai M, Ikemoto S, Ezaki O.

Division of Clinical Nutrition, National Institute of Health and Nutrition, Tokyo, Japan.

Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is a naturally occurring group of dienoic derivatives of linoleic acid found in beef and dairy products. CLA has been reported to reduce body fat. To examine the mechanism(s) of CLA reduction of fat mass, female C57BL/6J mice were fed standard semipurified diets (10% fat of total energy) with or without CLA (1% wt/wt). Terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase-mediated dUTP-biotin nick endlabeling (TUNEL) and DNA fragmentation analysis revealed that fat-mass decrease by CLA was mainly due to apoptosis. Tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha and uncoupling protein (UCP)-2 mRNA levels increased 12- and 6-fold, respectively, in isolated adipocytes from CLA-fed mice compared with control mice. Because it is known that TNF-alpha induces apoptosis of adipocytes and upregulates UCP2 mRNA, a marked increase of TNF-alpha mRNA with an increase of UCP2 in adipocytes caused CLA-induced apoptosis. However, with a decrease of fat mass, CLA supplementation resulted in a state resembling lipoatrophic diabetes: ablation of brown adipose tissue, a marked reduction of white adipose tissue, marked hepatomegaly, and marked insulin resistance. CLA supplementation decreased blood leptin levels, but continuous leptin infusion reversed hyperinsulinemia, indicating that leptin depletion contributes to the development of insulin resistance. These results demonstrate that intake of CLA reduces adipose tissue by apoptosis and results in lipodystrophy, but hyperinsulinemia by CLA can be normalized by leptin administration.


Conjugated linoleic acid supplementation in humans: effects on circulating leptin concentrations and appetite.

Medina EA, Horn WF, Keim NL, Havel PJ, Benito P, Kelley DS, Nelson GJ, Erickson KL.

Department of Cell Biology and Human Anatomy, School of Medicine, University of California, Davis 95616, USA.

Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) has been demonstrated to reduce body fat in animals. However, the mechanism by which this reduction occurs is unknown. Leptin may mediate the effect of CLA to decrease body fat. We assessed the effects of 64 d of CLA supplementation (3 g/d) on circulating leptin, insulin, glucose, and lactate concentrations in healthy women. Appetite was assessed as a physiological correlate of changes in circulating leptin levels. Analysis of plasma leptin concentrations adjusted for adiposity by using fat mass as a covariate showed that CLA supplementation significantly decreased circulating leptin concentrations in the absence of any changes of fat mass. Mean leptin levels decreased over the first 7 wk and then returned to baseline levels over the last 2 wk of the study in the CLA-treated group. Appetite parameters measured at around the time when the greatest decreases in leptin levels were observed showed no significant differences between supplementation and baseline determinations in the CLA-supplemented group or between the CLA and placebo-supplemented groups. There was a nonsignificant trend for mean insulin levels to increase toward the end of the supplementation period in CLA-treated subjects. CLA did not affect plasma glucose and lactate over the treatment period. Thus, 64 d of CLA supplementation in women produced a transient decrease in leptin levels but did not alter appetite. CLA did not affect these parameters in a manner that promoted decreases of adiposity.

 

[Breezed_one]

is it the ala that burns the crap out of your throat......and does r-ala do the same...cause if it dont then I think Im going to have to switch as that stuff burns and makes my throat tender...

 

[windwords7]

is it the ala that burns the crap out of your throat......and does r-ala do the same...cause if it dont then I think Im going to have to switch as that stuff burns and makes my throat tender...

Yeah it can really burn, I HATE that!

 

[Breezed_one]

My girlfriend is trying this and she cant hang with downing all the powder...I know you can buy a capsule machine...Are the easy to use and what size should I get? And are they really only 10 bucks?

never mind did a search and went with size 1 from kilosports....

 

[Scottyo]

The ala...and powder r-ala do burn. Thus the reason most take it in cap form. ALCAR, biotin, even GT (bad taste but..) can be handled in powder, but with the conveince factor, I like the r-ala in caps. That said, I did do a 3 month stint of 2grams+ (sometimes 3 or 4) of ALA powder only, and must say that you do get used to it or at least perfect ways of minimizing discomfort.

 

[Breezed_one]

Im going to cap the ala and the cla...Cla doesnt mix in to liquids that I have tried and its butt flavor is way strong....I also see why the cla is dropped out...400 grams aint going last long between the 2 of us...

 

[wojo]

is it the ala that burns the crap out of your throat......and does r-ala do the same...cause if it dont then I think Im going to have to switch as that stuff burns and makes my throat tender...

ok this maybe a little unorthodox but try mixing ur ala and alcar powders in a DIET 7-up..seriously

 

[Scottyo]

I can see that wojo....the carbonation would probably help a lot. My trick is chasing with apple cider vinegar...especially post workout as it itself is a glucose disposal agent from the acetate.

 

[LunaHotel]

Good advice Scottyo, especially considering the powerful liver-detoxification properties of apple cider vinegar... I wonder if that does anything for the guys on androgens too?

 

[maggmaster]

An interesting alternative to CLA would be fish oil, which does not lower leptin or cause insulin resistance but does have many of the same chemical properties as CLA. The best part however is that you can get 500 capsules of it for like 16 bucks at walmart

 

[motleybreu]

An interesting alternative to CLA would be fish oil, which does not lower leptin or cause insulin resistance but does have many of the same chemical properties as CLA. The best part however is that you can get 500 capsules of it for like 16 bucks at walmart

i believe this was discussed about 10 pages ago lol...when did this get so long??? damn, i'd hate to have to read it all again

 

[Scottyo]

Yes...and fish oil's have no drawbacks that CLA might have. However, I think CLA has some unique benefits, but Ill stick to the fishies myself for price reasons. Plus daily supplies of salmon.

 

[maggmaster]

hmmm good call motleybrue I was merely restating for the people who just joined us....ahembullshit

 

[motleybreu]

s'all good bro, there's so much info in this it's hard to keep track unless you go all the way back...

i'm lovin it, everyone else doin aight with it? anybody not like it???

 

[tatortodd]

I like it well enough that I just bought another 60 days worth (LG this time!).

The only thing I'm doing different this time is:
* Doubling ALCAR from 1.5g to 3.0g
* Doubling Green Tea from 1.2g to 2.4g
* Switching from 1.2 mg Biotin to 5mg Biotin

The only thing that I don't like is that my elbows are killing me. I think it's from taking 600mcg of Biotin twice daily so hoping that hopping on the 5mg cap once daily bandwagon will take care of it.

~Todd

 

[tatortodd]

Interesting post over at bb.com in the post ww7 started.

Number 5
I'm just wondering if CLA is completely safe.

below is a post by robertthoburn from and avant lab forum:

Spook: Check out this thread on CLA:

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=4761


In regards to CLA and insulin resistance, Dr. Michael McIntosh another CLA researcher, told me recently, "As you are aware, many groups are examining how CLA reduces body fat, using a variety of in vivo and in vitro models. Ultimately, determining if, and how, CLA safely reduces body fat in humans needs to be examined. Based on work by Riserus et al. (Diabetes Care), trans-10, cis-12 CLA could worsen insulin resistance in obese, diabetic patients, especially if they are not energy or fat-restricted. If this occurs via PPAR-gamma antagonism, then it would oppose the actions of glucose lowering agents such as rosiglitazone, which could contribute to hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia in obese, diabetic patients. So CLA supplementation may not be for everyone trying to lose weight or body fat."

 

[LunaHotel]

Good point tatortodd. We must keep in mind that most of us here are NOT obese and diabetic, and most of those who will use CLA will also use ALA which has such good insulin-mimetic properties that TEMPORARY insulin resistance would not be a problem.

Also on my post on this page, one study says "CLA supplementation decreased blood leptin levels, but continuous leptin infusion reversed hyperinsulinemia, indicating that leptin depletion contributes to the development of insulin resistance. These results demonstrate that intake of CLA reduces adipose tissue by apoptosis and results in lipodystrophy, but hyperinsulinemia by CLA can be normalized by leptin administration."

So, although it may not be COMPLETELY SAFE (well, actually, considering how ignorant the broad masses are, I'm sure for some of them it certainly is NOT) for us it must be... It reduces fat by apoptosis...

 

[meg1793]

Hey there, I can't believe how long this thread is! SInce I could barely put a dent in it the first time I read it, I actually had to save it to my favorites and go back. That was 3 days ago, and now I just skipped like 6 pages b/c I have too many questions and am way too impatient. First of all, WW7, you're almost my hero with your overflow of knowlegde and good attitude. I've read that some of these doods (here and at BB.com) have tried to call you out about some stuff, but they've all been punked , which I think is funny. Anyhoo, through all of this random Anarchy Stack talk, I have not read where one female has tried this stack yet. Unbelievable! I would love to be the first guinea pig w/ovaries to give this a shot. I need to know what dosage would be good for me, though. I dont' have a sensitive stomach and I can afford the CLA (for now anyway). Here is my plan, minus dosage: CLA, ALA, R-ALA, Biotin, ALCAR, a multi-vitamin, GT (hopefully, the low caffeine supplement). Now, Ive heard all kinds of people adding stuff to this. Q10, Vin-something, Betaine, I of course don't know what any of this stuff is. MY stats are 5'7" @ 170 with 22% BF, looking to kill about 20-25 lbs andget really cut, but not much bigger. Hook me up with some good feedback and answers...because..what do I know? Im just a newbie and a chick

 

[motleybreu]

either r-ala or ala, don't need both and i'd just stick with the stack and not go too crazy at first, see how it effects you. Dosage i'm not sure about, maybe the others can help you with that.

welcome to AM you'll love it here

 

[meg1793]

Ok, as I recall at the beginning of this forum, and on other forums, there were people that were taking both the ALA and the R-ALA. Now, refresh my memory, what is the difference between the 2? How many carbs are you allowed per meal when you are taking these supplements praytell? And, does anyone have a cheat day on this plan? I definitely need my cheat day or at least a cheat meal.

 

[Scottyo]

Sorry to say, but your not the first female, as many people on animal's board have been "supplying" it to their signif. otehrs. However, females have had just as much success from what I can tell, and from what others have reported, its more of a weight then gender issue on dosing. Since you are about 170 I would stick to the basic dosing that has been described here in the plan. Secondly, r-ala is supposedly better then the racemic (ie normal version) and if you can afford it I would definetly recommend the r-ala caps. Shoot for 200mg of r-ala a meal, and carbs are carbs....these are not anti-carb supplements. If your dieting, a cheat meal would be fine as long as the other days cals in<cals out.

 

[goin_big]

What would you guys think of just adding a gram a day of alcar in with some ucp-1, since I'll already be taking ala, would it be worth it?

 

[primal1]

would it be alright to put the ingrediients in some oil or alchohol and drink it. i want to get the powders from B A C since they are cheaper, but i can't find any info on if they would break down or something. i think this has been asked but i could not find an answer.

 

[Sanosuke]

Originally posted by primal1
would it be alright to put the ingrediients in some oil or alchohol and drink it. i want to get the powders from B A C since they are cheaper, but i can't find any info on if they would break down or something. i think this has been asked but i could not find an answer.

 

just get one of these.. works a lot better than the cap-em-quick.. even though its only 24 at a time onstead of 50 like cap-em-quick.. i found this device way easier to use

http://2line.com/CapsuleMachine.html 

 

[goin_big]

sanosuke, I just wanna say I love your name, that show rocks

 

[Sanosuke]

Originally posted by goin_big
sanosuke, I just wanna say I love your name, that show rocks

 

lol thanks.. probably the only other person here thats seen it.. but yeah its the ****

 

[primal1]

&nbsp;

just get one of these.. works a lot better than the cap-em-quick.. even though its only 24 at a time onstead of 50 like cap-em-quick.. i found this device way&nbsp;easier to use

http://2line.com/CapsuleMachine.html&nbsp;

link does'nt work

 

[pinoy]

link does'nt work

try this, worked for me

http://www.2line.com/CapsuleMachine.html

 

[JCG]

Great thread.

Wondering if there is a *major* disadvantage to mixing ALCar with water and downing it as compared to popping the pills?

also, since it is a little on the bitter side, would tossing a splenda in the water/ALCar have any adverse effects on the ALCar?

thanks.

 

[bigbadboss101]

Ok, I got some extra bottles. So the R-ALA should be keep in the fridge, and the ALCAR, GT extract, and CLA can be kept at room temperature for months?

BTW, custom opened my package and the green tea, CLA, ALA, and ALCAR came thru. It cost me $16 Cdn, but I got what I ordered. On the other hand, a few days prior to this I ordered AbSolve and Vendetta and that one is NOT here.
I am in Canada if you haven't figured it out...

 

[meg1793]

Ok, this is for WW7 who asked this question, probably ages ago by now, about the EGCG levels of GT Extract. I don't know where the question is nor do I have the patience to look for it or if anyone already answered it, but this is some good stuff that I just found:

Life Extension Super Green Tea Capsules
Life Extension Green Tea Extract (350 mg capsules) are standardized to 95% polyphenols and 35% EGCG. 100 capsules per bottle.

Each capsule contains: 332.5 mg of polyphenols and 122.5 mg of EGCG.
Each capsule contains (decaffeinated): 285 mg of polyphenols and 105 mg of EGCG.

 

[motleybreu]

how much $$?

i use vitamin shoppe's 75% Polyphenols 187.5 Mg Including 30% Epi Gallo Catechin Gallate 75 Mg

 

[meg1793]

how much $$?

i use vitamin shoppe's 75% Polyphenols 187.5 Mg Including 30% Epi Gallo Catechin Gallate 75 Mg

Here is a whole price list that I found for green tea extract:http://www.drumlib.com/supp/prod/green-tea_01.htm

I hope you can pull it up. The spectrum is prices is rather large.

Meg

 

[JWest0926]

Nice capping machine.... any place to get the gel caps cheaper?

 

[Sanosuke]

Originally posted by JWest0926
Nice capping machine.... any place to get the gel caps cheaper?

 

1000 "00"'s for 15 is the cheapest ive seen

 

[intv]

1fast400 has 750 00 for 7.99, and has 750 0 listed as 7.99, but the bag of 0 I got had 1000 caps.

 

[motleybreu]

shhh don't tell anyone intv

 

[wojo]

what machine r u using and r u guys using scales this is one thing i always wanted to learn how to do ..lol

 

[Sanosuke]

Originally posted by wojo
what machine r u using and r u guys using scales this is one thing i always wanted to learn how to do ..lol

 

i use the capsule machine i posted back up a few posts.. also as far as measuring.. the 00's hold about 500mg each.. so for alcar and green tea extract i dont even measure i just fill the caps.. even if its over or under just slightly i dont see a big deal.. as for biotin and r-ala i set the caps up and just use the scoop bac gives to measure out the dose and scoop it into each cap individuallly.. its doesnt take very long at all..  i would get the 0 capsule machine.. but since i make 100mg r-ala caps i'd have to do this anyway since 0 is like 300mg i think... all in all it doesnt take much time and is way cheaper than buying the stuff precapped.. im also gonna add that Huperzine Vinpocetine mix bac sells.. ill let u guys know how it works out!

 

[Sanosuke]

oh i forgot to mention 00 is about 500mg per cap only if you dont use the tamper piece that comes with the capsule machine.. if you use the tamper you can squeeze about 800mg or so into 1 cap..

 

[pinoy]

i'm gonna get that capsule machine to cap alcar, green tea, and ala in one pill !

 

[Sanosuke]

Originally posted by pinoy
i'm gonna get that capsule machine to cap alcar, green tea, and ala in one pill !

 

that would work i guess.. only thing is since u dont have to measure out the alcar and green tea.. it would be a lot faster to just cap em seperatly.. since ala will be the only one you gotta actually dose each cap seperatly

 

[tatortodd]

Unquenchable Thirst

I like it well enough that I just bought another 60 days worth (LG this time!).

The only thing I'm doing different this time is:
* Doubling ALCAR from 1.5g to 3.0g
* Doubling Green Tea from 1.2g to 2.4g
* Switching from 1.2 mg Biotin to 5mg Biotin

The only thing that I don't like is that my elbows are killing me. I think it's from taking 600mcg of Biotin twice daily so hoping that hopping on the 5mg cap once daily bandwagon will take care of it.

~Todd

I just finished my first week at my new dosages.

Positive:
Elbows already feel better.

Negative:
I felt great the first few days, but Thursday night I started to feel insanely thirsty. I woke up in the middle of the night with my tongue stuck to the roof of my mouth (not normal for me), and despite drinking over 2 gallons of water per day (normally only drink 1-1/2 gallons per day) I felt dehydrated. There were no other changes to my dieting and supplementing. Any thoughts?

Personally, I'm suspecting the green tea so yesterday afternoon I went back to my old dosage, but no difference yet. Although, it's probably too soon to tell.

~Todd

 

[LunaHotel]

How's your salt intake, meaning sodium/potassium? Add some sea salt to your foods, see if that helps.

 

[Scottyo]

I think it might be the ALCAR...stuff always makes me more thirsty. Others have noticed the same at animal's.

 

[tatortodd]

Today, I finally started feeling normal thirst levels again. The only change I've made (I eat a regular, boring diet) is going back to my old dosage of green tea (1 capsule 3 times daily plus a cup or two at work).

~Todd

 

[cashiertan]

guys, got a qns to ask the pros here. as i am on low carb diet, basically the ala/r-ala will not be of much use as. therefore i would like to replace the ala/r-ala wif 7-keto. than i can also take out the biotin and put in 5-htp. but i noe that anti-ox of ala/r-ala will help negate the pro-ox of the alcar. therefore i wondering if the anti-ox of the green tea is enough for the alcar. correct me if i am wrg. thks

 

[windwords7]

I would always take ALA/R-ALA when taking Alcar.

 

[Scottyo]

Like Ive said before...the MAIN function of ALA is its anti-ox abilities protecting against the pr-ox of ALCAR. Like WW I would be very cautious of using ALCAR without it. Simply use a lower dose on low carb days (400-500mg of r-ala) and you'll be fine. Also, ALA increases the efficacy of the ALCAR so....