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(3b,5a,6a,25R)-Spirostan-3,6-diol

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RBKing said:
Face it AX, PA owns ya'll in this argument. Even Dr. D, who I have a tremendous amount of respect for, will not answer the basic question of how the primary ingredient of MFX works. I am now trying to figure out what to do with the bottle of MFX I recently purchased. I am probably going to stack it with EPI and Tbol during my current pulse cycle and see if it potentiates my anabolics.
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Well, I made Epi too, so you better not use it either! lol

And yes, I have answered all these mechanism questions a million and a half times already! :gotsearch
 
I wish Patrick had brought this up before I purchased MFX, I could have spent the money on another bottle of EPI or 11- oxo, which I know works, Since I have a pharmaceutical background, explanations for mode of action like "dude's log says it works" don't fly with me. Even a theoretical mode of action would be enough to ease my mind. I hate to use MFX for the absorption agent it (pretty expensive GFJ).
 
PumpingIron said:
Quick question...why isn't anyone looking at all of Ergo's products right now and trying to pick them apart...???
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Because who gives a ****?! Some of us would rather focus on actually improving and advancing our own formulas, rather that cut down the next guy's to pretend we look better.
 
DR.D said:
It was a debate between BK and I about 6-Br. The thread was called "Pimp that AI" or something to that effect, on bb.com. I answered all these questions and then some.
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i answer the same f'in questions 50 times a day just about everyday

are so so goddam important that you only address a question once and then demand all others search through the amazon rain forest of posts to find the answer?
 
So what is the actual distance one needs to attain to win an internet pissing contest anyhow? :duel: :icon_lol:
 
mmowry said:
So what is the actual distance one needs to attain to win an internet pissing contest anyhow? :duel: :icon_lol:
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To be the best on the net you must play lots of World of Warcraft, watch dragonball Z and dream about suping up your Honda Civic with the latest in muffler technology!
 
RBKing said:
I wish Patrick had brought this up before I purchased MFX, I could have spent the money on another bottle of EPI or 11- oxo, which I know works, Since I have a pharmaceutical background, explanations for mode of action like "dude's log says it works" don't fly with me. Even a theoretical mode of action would be enough to ease my mind. I hate to use MFX for the absorption agent it (pretty expensive GFJ).
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Although PA attacked Epistane too and said it was crap and wasn't what it was, yet you say it works.

That is the point we are all trying to make is that PA bashes things for no reason. Try and find a large study conducted on Epistane for pure purposes of muscle building. YOU WON'T FIND IT. Most of the ingredients used in todays bodybuilding world are the same way. You can do some of the science as to way it works but there aren't true studies that prove or disprove anything. Same for 25r-diol.

That is why I try to say, see what people think of it. Obviously if a lot of people are saying they like it then it is working. Maybe through some unknown pathway that was overlooked. The human body is more complex then a + 1 = 3 therefore a = -2. There are a lot of things we overlook and a lot more that we do not yet understand. PA can preach all day long he knows this thing doesn't work but unfortunately PA is a chemist not a biologist or endocrinologist or any other ist' besides a chemist. I
 
Wow I just read all of this and the one thing that concerns me most is that HDx2 is being called a prohormone and JW is a prosteroid. This is a pretty big deal seeing that alot of people use these products with PCT. I don't see how people are getting pissed off at PA for bringing this up. I personally was planning on using JW and HDx2 as part of my upcoming PCT but I would definatly rethink it if the accusations about these products are true. Im not trying to bash AX or anything but it just seems like all they are saying is how childish it is for PA to say this stuff and not really defending their products with science. Wheather it was wrong or right for this to be brought up, now it has and now there are questions that need to be answered.
 
Every one of you is acting like a crybaby.

He said this, he said that...bunch of damn babies.

This thread has totally gone the wrong way, and you all deserve to be in BB.com. :smite:

Give a kid a rep job and they think they have to fight every battle...
 
mike3107 said:
Wow I just read all of this and the one thing that concerns me most is that HDx2 is being called a prohormone and JW is a prosteroid. This is a pretty big deal seeing that alot of people use these products with post cycle therapy. I don't see how people are getting pissed off at PA for bringing this up. I personally was planning on using JW and HDx2 as part of my upcoming PCT but I would definatly rethink it if the accusations about these products are true. Im not trying to bash AX or anything but it just seems like all they are saying is how childish it is for PA to say this stuff and not really defending their products with science. Wheather it was wrong or right for this to be brought up, now it has and now there are questions that need to be answered.
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I totally agree looks like people will need to start and PCT for their PCT.

Although a JW/H2 stack is starting to look better.
 
LakeMountD said:
Although PA attacked Epistane too and said it was crap and wasn't what it was, yet you say it works.

That is the point we are all trying to make is that PA bashes things for no reason. Try and find a large study conducted on Epistane for pure purposes of muscle building. YOU WON'T FIND IT. Most of the ingredients used in todays bodybuilding world are the same way. You can do some of the science as to way it works but there aren't true studies that prove or disprove anything. Same for 25r-diol.

That is why I try to say, see what people think of it. Obviously if a lot of people are saying they like it then it is working. Maybe through some unknown pathway that was overlooked. The human body is more complex then a + 1 = 3 therefore a = -2. There are a lot of things we overlook and a lot more that we do not yet understand. PA can preach all day long he knows this thing doesn't work but unfortunately PA is a chemist not a biologist or endocrinologist or any other ist' besides a chemist. I
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:clap2:
 
Hyde12 said:
To be the best on the net you must play lots of World of Warcraft, watch dragonball Z and dream about suping up your Honda Civic with the latest in muffler technology!
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Well I dont stand a chance then so Ill be leaving:frustrate

Good luck to those that qualify to fight for the prize. :D
 
Patrick Arnold said:
some berries are lower in carbs then others. i think blueberries are supposed to be good

just go on the internet and find out what the nutritional facts are and then weigh your portions
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Thanks for the help with fruit. I'll have to definitely keep this in mind!
 
Sorry to antagonize you Dr D, I know you made EPI, and all your other products are solid, hell "pulsing" works like a charm and is revolutionary IMO. I've always found your advice spot on, I guess i was disappointed because you didn't seem to be intellectually engaging PA.
 
Jungle warfare did seem like it gave me prosteroid-like gains, but I didn't notice any suppression, actually my nuts seemed to grow on the stuff. This is a good thread. I like all the companies involved so I couldn't really pick sides.
 
LakeMountD said:
What I don't like however, is someone doing it just to be a **** and doing it directly. There is nothing wrong with saying "Mine is better than yours" or "Ours is better because of this". But to completely trash another persons products with absolute bullcrap is not fair.
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Doesn't sound like he's trashing them based on absolute bull crap though. They made specific claims, supposedly based on research. The research is not forthcoming. That's not bull crap no matter who it comes from, or if they're trying to be a **** or are genuinely interested in the answers.

PA is preaching this to mostly people that understand NOTHING about any chemistry, science, or scientific studies. I am not talking about a lot of the people who post here a lot, but this board mostly has guests that aren't even registered that you never hear from that read this stuff and they go on believing whatever it is they see.

It is more a matter of ethics than anything else and what "you" believe is wrong or wrong. I just wish everyone could walk around here with more class. I hate seeing people get picked on.
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Then we disagree. I definitely see some attitude in PA's postings, I can see your point about class there, but to my mind class would also include referencing the studies that supposedly prove the claims in the ads. If AX has a legitimate reason not to post them then that sucks for them. For some consumers the logs simply aren't enough.
 
BigSmith said:
There are several Russian studies that have these claims. Unfortunately they speak about other compounds were are trying to bring to the market. For that reason our company has chosen not to disclose them.

All of this has been stated before and unfortunately our legal team have advised us(AX owners) not to engage you.

You can wait for the study to be complete.
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:study:
 
LakeMountD said:
That is the point we are all trying to make is that PA bashes things for no reason. Try and find a large study conducted on Epistane for pure purposes of muscle building. YOU WON'T FIND IT. Most of the ingredients used in todays bodybuilding world are the same way. You can do some of the science as to way it works but there aren't true studies that prove or disprove anything. Same for 25r-diol.
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Except the MFX write-up makes claims to this effect and justifies those claims with "studies" that have not been produced... big difference. Also, the write-up claims 25R-diol actually agonizes the androgen receptor, but yet doesn't produce suppression. That is a novel mechanism to say the least, a pretty bold claim, and skepticism is warranted.

To say that PA "bashes things for no reason" is pretty absurd in this case. If you re-read PA's original post that got this thread started, he makes basically three points:
1) 25R-diol's real name is 6alpha-hydroxydiosgenin
2) 6alpha-hydroxydiosgenin is not some revolutionary unknown compound, but was tried (with unsuccessful results) back in the 90's
3) Where are these studies?

These are all valid points. So far AX hasn't even attempted to refute #1 and #2 (which, if false, they could easily do), so I can only assume they are true. And #3 is also an excellent question, to which AX has unfortunately responded that they will not release the research.

So there you have it. Two extremely valuable pieces of information about 25R-diol which were previously overlooked, and a simple request to see the research. If you are criticizing PA for this post then you have little regard for knowledge, an axe to grind against PA, or both.
 
TeamSavage said:
Except the MFX write-up makes claims to this effect and justifies those claims with "studies" that have not been produced... big difference.

"Bashes things for no reason"?!? Let's go back to the source...
If you re-read PA's original post that got this thread started, he makes basically three points:
1) 25R-diol's real name is 6alpha-hydroxydiosgenin
2) 6alpha-hydroxydiosgenin is not some revolutionary unknown compound, but was tried (with unsuccessful results) back in the 90's
3) Where are these studies?

These are all valid points. So far AX hasn't even attempted to refute #1 and #2 (which, if false, they could easily do), so I can only assume they are true. And #3 is also an excellent question, to which AX has unfortunately responded that they will not release the research.

So there you have it. Two extremely valuable pieces of information about 25R-diol which were previously overlooked, and a simple request to see the research. If you are criticizing PA for this post then you have little regard for knowledge, an axe to grind against PA, or both.
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:study:
BigSmith said:
There are several Russian studies that have these claims. Unfortunately they speak about other compounds were are trying to bring to the market. For that reason our company has chosen not to disclose them.

All of this has been stated before and unfortunately our legal team have advised us(AX owners) not to engage you.

You can wait for the study to be complete.
Click to expand...
 
jeff k said:
Throwing dirty may indeed be true, but simply refuting those allegations would be all that was required if they were unfounded. That's not what's happening though. Us consumers have seen nothing but broscience from AX. If you think PA is wrong, or if his conclusions are unfounded, then refute them with credible arguments and I think that would go a long way...
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Exactly....

If I had a competitor that I thought was wrong and could provide evidence about the product's false claims, I would throw dirt on them....Are you kidding, I'd roll up the damn concrete truck and bury. So would most in the business world. Which leads me to believe many people here are living in fantasy land.
 
PumpingIron said:
wow, that really makes me rethink things about you.

Whatever PA might gain from this, questioning is good for the consumer.

you have some definite confidence issues...attacking people for having different views, not cool...

I didn't attack you but you insist on calling me a fool. get over it. BigSmith, you need to rethink your employment criteria and who you let talk for your company.

This is very very upsetting to me.
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Bro, the best thing that we can all do is relax and suspend our judgements. This is a heated thread and if we induce or deduct logic based on what we know as consumers and direct them at the people responsible for the products creation (consumer vs. the creator), we will open ourselves to criticism. Dr. D is not attacking you... atleast I don't think... maybe you do, but he clarified that for you.

The most we can do as educated consumers is continue to further educate ourselves and leave our minds open. We have a lot of intelligent people from the field giving input into a discussion, however, we can't really allow these statements to intersect in our minds.

This discussion board has a mixture of:
1. Intelligent chemists/scientists
2. Intelligent collegian consumers
3. Educated, athletic supplement consumers
4. Educated supplement marketers
5. Uneducated consumers
6. Completely oblivious consumers
7. Misc.

All of these categories of people are giving facts, opinions, and insights to a broad topic with infinite subcontents/subtopics. Since this is happening, we have to take each statement for what it is, who it's coming from, why it's being said, etc... and not take it to heart. It is very hard to make each post 'linear' when we have page after page of intersecting/adjunct remarks and posts, so if we don't know what we're saying or why we're saying it, we should just not post it.
 
macedaddy said:
:study:
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I've never said a bad word about AX, ever!

But how on earth can you point to a statement that reads:

"Sorry we can't give out the cited studies because they are a secret"

I mean how on earth do you view that as a logical answer. If I were to cop out and not have **** to back up my product that is the kind of answer I would give. Regardless of whether that statement is true or not, it reeks of BS and AX would be much better served backing up statements on a product that is ALREADY out rather than try and protect products that do not exist and may never exist. As we have seen with 3-AD, this is entirely possible.
 
LakeMountD said:
Why don't we attack your Stamin O2 product for charging people $40 for a product that contains only citrulline malate or maybe bash 6-oxo for being inferior to the newer ingredients like 6-bromo? We could easily go on all the boards and just start bashing it, but there is no reason for us to do that nor do we care to.
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You could, but unfortunately it wouldn't be the same type of claim. Saying a product is overpriced and/or less effective than X is not the same as calling on someone to produce research they claim to have that backs up public claims they have made. For example, if I remember right there was a claim that long term low dose 6 oxo use can boost testosterone levels singificantly without affecting estrogen levels. If that claim came from PA, then asking for the study and/or reasoning behind it would be analogous to what's going on here.
 
DR.D said:
Well, I made Epi too, so you better not use it either! lol

And yes, I have answered all these mechanism questions a million and a half times already! :gotsearch
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Why not put them in a FAQ to avoid current and future requests? If you do care about your customers, shouldn't the answers be easy to find, and not involve a machete and a few weeks wading through posts on message boards?
 
RBKing said:
Damn, I was "owned" by DR D, thats what I get for coming to a dymanite fight armed only with a wet match!
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No! I'm not an "owner". I am here to help freely, not own or rule or reign or whatever! I have always advised as best I could, and I'm honored I have been able to assist in your training goals.

I would engage Pat intellectually, but unfortunately, that doesn't work. He doesn't even acknowledge me as a scientist, so what's the point? Plus he has ulterior motives, so I lose automatically if I engage, PLUS I have now officially been gagged by the powers that be, so sorry but check out the info I spoon fed Bruce at BB if you're really interested. I broke it down well, a long time ago, and the same holds true now as then.
 
rpen22.....you da search king!!!:bow28:
 
Damn, I can't keep up with this thread! Reading these posts took up my entire late morning and early afternoon!
 
mmowry said:
rpen22.....you da search king!!!:bow28:
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After reading that I am even more at a loss for words on this subject.

My question is IF JW and HDx2 are in fact prosteroids or convert to this and that which are steroids then why did I not have any ill effects after use? I ran both for a month as standalones and took nothing but creatine before the use of each and after.

Great debate as long as it stays on course.
 
UNCfan1 said:
After reading that I am even more at a loss for words on this subject.

My question is IF JW and HDx2 are in fact prosteroids or convert to this and that which are steroids then why did I not have any ill effects after use? I ran both for a month as standalones and took nothing but creatine before the use of each and after.

Great debate as long as it says on course.
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If the active primary component in both of those are infact prosteroids/prohormones, they have secondary components that are utilized to minimize shutdown and to free up natural testosterone which would allow for very quick recovery and minimal to no loss of gains after the cycle is completed. Very cool in my own opinion.

That is... if indeed what is said is true... ;)
 
Force of Green said:
If the active primary component in both of those are infact prosteroids/prohormones, they have secondary components that are utilized to minimize shutdown and to free up natural testosterone which would allow for very quick recovery and minimal to no loss of gains after the cycle is completed. Very cool in my own opinion.

That is... if indeed what is said is true... ;)
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Thanks Force, lol I thought I read that but I got lost in all of the madness.
 
Force of Green said:
If the active primary component in both of those are infact prosteroids/prohormones, they have secondary components that are utilized to minimize shutdown and to free up natural testosterone which would allow for very quick recovery and minimal to no loss of gains after the cycle is completed. Very cool in my own opinion.

That is... if indeed what is said is true... ;)
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there are many anti-estrogenic or aromatase inhibiting androgens. yes you get less suppresssion than you would with aromatizing steroids but its not the holy grail by any stretch
 
UNCfan1 said:
Thanks Force, lol I thought I read that but I got lost in all of the madness.
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No problem UNCfan... there's a lot of madness going around in this discussion, but for sure there're many good facts and lessons to be learned if you can sift through everything. I hope your training and all continues to go well.
 
Force of Green said:
If the active primary component in both of those are infact prosteroids/prohormones, they have secondary components that are utilized to minimize shutdown and to free up natural testosterone which would allow for very quick recovery and minimal to no loss of gains after the cycle is completed. Very cool in my own opinion.

That is... if indeed what is said is true... ;)
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So restore by ALRI is a prohormone ?
 
Patrick Arnold said:
there are many anti-estrogenic or aromatase inhibiting androgens. yes you get less suppresssion than you would with aromatizing steroids but its not the holy grail by any stretch
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This is true for sure... Formestane being one of my FAVORITES by far. Formestane being moderately/highly anti-estrogenic and mildy anabolic while only being slightly suppressive at high doses, but also has helped many recover from HTPA suppression. Formestane's main target being OH-testosterone, making it prosteroidal, however, with this compound the benefits GREATLY outweigh the sides (which are pretty much non-existant IMO)...

But, indeed... the marketing for many of these compounds and formulas should be modified to avoid being misleading or re-directing the consumer from the fact that, "yes this is still a prosteroid much like the recently banned ones, only this one won't shut you down as much and will allow for quicker recovery."

My opinion, stating the cold, hard truth about the endogenous activity will still attract the market. People will just have more respect for the company doing such and not beating around the bush about it.
 
wheels said:
So restore by ALRI is a prohormone ?
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I don't know. Here are my credentials and qualifications that back the opinions and statements I make:

B.S. psychology from RSCNJ (high honors grad)
dual degree in education, minor focus in psychopharmacology


Experience working in customer service for Cytodyne, Bioquest, and Prosource

NESTA certified personal trainer, certified lifestyle and weight management counselor, biomechanic specialist, certified group fitness instructor

Certified Massage Therapist

**********************************
Restore appears to be a prosteroidal aromatase inhibitor with a superior cortisol modulator and a few other things to help maximize optimal male hormonal health.
 
Force of Green said:
Bro, the best thing that we can all do is relax and suspend our judgements. This is a heated thread and if we induce or deduct logic based on what we know as consumers and direct them at the people responsible for the products creation (consumer vs. the creator), we will open ourselves to criticism. Dr. D is not attacking you... atleast I don't think... maybe you do, but he clarified that for you.

The most we can do as educated consumers is continue to further educate ourselves and leave our minds open. We have a lot of intelligent people from the field giving input into a discussion, however, we can't really allow these statements to intersect in our minds.

This discussion board has a mixture of:
1. Intelligent chemists/scientists
2. Intelligent collegian consumers
3. Educated, athletic supplement consumers
4. Educated supplement marketers
5. Uneducated consumers
6. Completely oblivious consumers
7. Misc.

All of these categories of people are giving facts, opinions, and insights to a broad topic with infinite subcontents/subtopics. Since this is happening, we have to take each statement for what it is, who it's coming from, why it's being said, etc... and not take it to heart. It is very hard to make each post 'linear' when we have page after page of intersecting/adjunct remarks and posts, so if we don't know what we're saying or why we're saying it, we should just not post it.
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I was reacting to a comment Dr. D made...but we worked it out privately...like it should've been done in the first place and it was my fault for bring it to the public forum in the first place.
 
xjsynx said:
Let's settle this once and for all

Invalid Link Removed
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. I officially challenge him to a Octagon style cage match! Put it on pay per view and we can settle this once and for all in front of everybody. Winner take all, loser STFU.
 
DR.D said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I officially challenge him to a Octagon style cage match! Put it on pay per view and we can settle this once and for all in front of everybody. Winner take all, loser STFU.
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Got dibs on being a corner man!
 
DR.D said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I officially challenge him to a Octagon style cage match! Put it on pay per view and we can settle this once and for all in front of everybody. Winner take all, loser STFU.
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:icon_lol:
 
PumpingIron said:
I was reacting to a comment Dr. D made...but we worked it out privately...like it should've been done in the first place and it was my fault for bring it to the public forum in the first place.
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Sorry to say this, but your posts and reaction made you look like an ass - which is normally not your normal style - usually you come across as pretty smart on the subjects. Also normally, your input is accepted by many of us who may not have a lot of experience with PH's etc., but have lifted for awhile. However, today, your posting was hostile, immature, rude, not thought out, and worst of all, you brought insult to the company you rep for. Normally, I really listen to what you print, and I take your comments as pretty reliable. However, after today, I have to say, what your posts will be scrutinized because of your ranting and raving.

However, you were one of the least offenders, others, including but not limited to PA, Dr. D, also abandoned all professionalism and started to insult a lot of us readers in their posts. Dr. D really fell outside of his usually protocol, his input is readily taken in by myself and others. But today he really displayed an unusual lack of professionalism, something way far outside his credentials as an expert in this field. Even PA fell way outside of his raole as an expert and professional. Bad form people...

Also, you were by far not as bad as the IBE rep. His Epistane attack, seriously insulted everyone, including himself. I have far less incentive in giving IBE my money after reading his dumb ass postings.

Last, I think everyone (including you), and especially Dr. D, and PA owe everyone in the AM community an apology for their behavior in this post. Especially the IBE rep Lake MountD. I mean who the hell are you (talking to the IBE rep) to blatantly insult one of the founding experts in the steroid and prohormone fields, your barely old enough to drink a beer.

I really hope that this thread gets lost in the system, because as you are so fond of slamming on BB.com, you all have brought it to a level below BB.com.

Thanks, and the soap box goes to another...
 
Erik2003 said:
Sorry to say this, but your posts and reaction made you look like an ass - which is normally not your normal style - usually you come across as pretty smart on the subjects. Also normally, your input is accepted by many of us who may not have a lot of experience with PH's etc., but have lifted for awhile. However, today, your posting was hostile, immature, rude, not thought out, and worst of all, you brought insult to the company you rep for. Normally, I really listen to what you print, and I take your comments as pretty reliable. However, after today, I have to say, what your posts will be scrutinized because of your ranting and raving.

However, you were one of the least offenders, others, including but not limited to PA, Dr. D, also abandoned all professionalism and started to insult a lot of us readers in their posts. Dr. D really fell outside of his usually protocol, his input is readily taken in by myself and others. But today he really displayed an unusual lack of professionalism, something way far outside his credentials as an expert in this field. Even PA fell way outside of his raole as an expert and professional. Bad form people...

Also, you were by far not as bad as the IBE rep. His Epistane attack, seriously insulted everyone, including himself. I have far less incentive in giving IBE my money after reading his dumb ass postings.

Last, I think everyone (including you), and especially Dr. D, and PA owe everyone in the AM community an apology for their behavior in this post. Especially the IBE rep Lake MountD. I mean who the hell are you (talking to the IBE rep) to blatantly insult one of the founding experts in the steroid and prohormone fields, your barely old enough to drink a beer.

I really hope that this thread gets lost in the system, because as you are so fond of slamming on BB.com, you all have brought it to a level below BB.com.

Thanks, and the soap box goes to another...
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Interesting point, although I find nothing wrong with people being expressive of perfectly normal human emotions. As a professional, I've done many things that are unprofessional. I tend to lose grasp of my emotions many times... sometimes I question if I'm bipolar!? Who knows...

I think that the comments made by the select individuals you've mentioned 'humanizes' us. There will always be opposing forces at one another and there will always be a conflict of opinion and fact, however, the views and statements expressed in everyday life (including this board) will not always be done so in a way that appeals to every active reader/poster.

I look at the comments that were made by certain people and just think... "What if he/she had been having a really bad day?" "What if the person isn't feeling too well at the moment and a certain comment with a context that we don't know, really hit home?" People make mistakes, people overreact, and people sometimes lose control.

Isn't life all about losing control?

I speak for myself on this, but no apology is necessary from ANYONE to me.
 
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