Building Back Up

GreenMachineX said:
Weight: 204.6

Standing OHP 3 x 6 x 135
Pull-ups 4/4/4
Dips 8/12/9
NG pull-ups 5/4
Crossbody Lateral Raise 3 sets
Hammer OHP DC Method 13 reps

Meh. Good enough.
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Good enough is all it needs to be, you aren't testing strength today, just laying the bricks.
 
Weight: 205.2

Flat Bench 3 x 6 x 225
Cable Row 3 sets
Seated BBOHP 4 x 5 x 150
Pull-ups 3/3/3/3/3
Hammer Incline Press 2 x 8 x 180

Ran out of time for lateral raise which works because they were still very sore from something.

No deficit today. Starting again tomorrow.
 
I have been bringing extra protein shakes back into the routine lately as way to avoid temptation. either one scoop in coffee in the morning, or a full shaker the minute I get home from work at night (to help eliminate snacking) and its almost overpowering in that I'm simply not even hungry for breakfast or dinner when I do that, FWIW.
 
Dustin07 said:
I have been bringing extra protein shakes back into the routine lately as way to avoid temptation. either one scoop in coffee in the morning, or a full shaker the minute I get home from work at night (to help eliminate snacking) and its almost overpowering in that I'm simply not even hungry for breakfast or dinner when I do that, FWIW.
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Something I read from Jim Wendler that was very enlightening (even though I don’t eat this way), was that he said how he structured his food intake whether he was trying to gain or lose weight.

He would eat 3 food meals a day along with 3 protein shakes either way. If he was trying to lose weight, he would drink the shakes ahead of his meals with plenty of water to help curb his appetite so he could eat less food & still be satisfied. When bulking, he would eat as much food as he reasonably could, then have a shake soon after to tuck the extra drinkable calories in - you can always pound a shake if you absolutely have to.

This probably resulted in way more protein than he needed when gaining, but follows the same principle as being able to eat dessert even when you are full, without leaning on foods that are bad for you.
 
Hyde said:
Something I read from Jim Wendler that was very enlightening (even though I don’t eat this way), was that he said how he structured his food intake whether he was trying to gain or lose weight.

He would eat 3 food meals a day along with 3 protein shakes either way. If he was trying to lose weight, he would drink the shakes ahead of his meals with plenty of water to help curb his appetite so he could eat less food & still be satisfied. When bulking, he would eat as much food as he reasonably could, then have a shake soon after to tuck the extra drinkable calories in - you can always pound a shake if you absolutely have to.

This probably resulted in way more protein than he needed when gaining, but follows the same principle as being able to eat dessert even when you are full, without leaning on foods that are bad for you.
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makes sense, those are reasonable approaches. historically I got buy with just adding or removing carbs but these days I prefer to keep the carbs as much as possible for early morning mental faculties and find other life hacks, this protein shake approach seems about right. pushes first meal of the day off a bit, but doesn't fully delete carbs. by dinner time, I'm half as hungry as usual.
 
Hyde said:
Eat less cals earlier in the day if you are running into issues with choosing between being too hungry to sleep or overeating daily cals.
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It's the preworkout shakes messing me up when it's been too long since breakfast to when I workout. I've also been attempting to eat closer to maintenance the day before doing torso workouts or days I need to be in a good mood, which has been working, just need to trim kcal a bit more other days.
 
Dustin07 said:
I have been bringing extra protein shakes back into the routine lately as way to avoid temptation. either one scoop in coffee in the morning, or a full shaker the minute I get home from work at night (to help eliminate snacking) and its almost overpowering in that I'm simply not even hungry for breakfast or dinner when I do that, FWIW.
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It's not even snacking, I'm really just trying to ride that perfect line of feeling and performing decently while slowly losing. I literally never snack. When I go over calories it's due to the preworkout shakes. Need to figure that out.
 
what about the idea of more meals of smaller size throughout the day (in the way that protein shakes could help supplement) to maintain blood sugar etc? I never fully subscribed to the 6 meals per day approach, but at my leanest when performance was the highest (albiet weaker overall in terms of 1rm) I definitely was a 4 meal + snack a day person. I still was never "big" on protein shakes, but the snack was usually a thoughtful fruit + fat between breakfast and lunch. then gym, then dinner.

I think thats what I accomplish right now, having a morning protein shake with a hard boiled egg or two pushes out my breakfast a few hours but I don't feel foggy. by the time dinner arrives I'm barely hungry (vs famished). I think I recall eggs being a no go for you but of course they aren't the only easy option.
 
Dustin07 said:
what about the idea of more meals of smaller size throughout the day (in the way that protein shakes could help supplement) to maintain blood sugar etc? I never fully subscribed to the 6 meals per day approach, but at my leanest when performance was the highest (albiet weaker overall in terms of 1rm) I definitely was a 4 meal + snack a day person. I still was never "big" on protein shakes, but the snack was usually a thoughtful fruit + fat between breakfast and lunch. then gym, then dinner.

I think thats what I accomplish right now, having a morning protein shake with a hard boiled egg or two pushes out my breakfast a few hours but I don't feel foggy. by the time dinner arrives I'm barely hungry (vs famished). I think I recall eggs being a no go for you but of course they aren't the only easy option.
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Yes, I could do that. Eggs are necessity for me actually lol
 
GreenMachineX said:
It's not even snacking, I'm really just trying to ride that perfect line of feeling and performing decently while slowly losing. I literally never snack. When I go over calories it's due to the preworkout shakes. Need to figure that out.
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I might be over simplifying here but simply cut the additional 140-200 calories from dinner when you do that, or eat a smaller breakfast planning for the protein shake. It is simply a matter of moving calories around. If you need a bigger deficit early so you can stack calories for sleeping then do that.
 
MrKleen73 said:
I might be over simplifying here but simply cut the additional 140-200 calories from dinner when you do that, or eat a smaller breakfast planning for the protein shake. It is simply a matter of moving calories around. If you need a bigger deficit early so you can stack calories for sleeping then do that.
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Yes, clearly what I said wasn’t conveying the simplicity of the math.

Eat less calories . Take the calories from wherever they’ll be missed least.
 
MrKleen73 said:
I might be over simplifying here but simply cut the additional 140-200 calories from dinner when you do that, or eat a smaller breakfast planning for the protein shake. It is simply a matter of moving calories around. If you need a bigger deficit early so you can stack calories for sleeping then do that.
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Hyde said:
Yes, clearly what I said wasn’t conveying the simplicity of the math.

Eat less calories . Take the calories from wherever they’ll be missed least.
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Right, yeah, it's easy and I get it. When I'm in the moment is the issue..."uh oh, if I don't eat enough, I might be stuck awake at 3am...or willi feel like Garbage? Or will I not be able to perform later tonight (if you know what I mean)?" Those are the thought patterns.

I just looked at my average kcal the past month and it's at 3k. It was a good thing to see, actually. 3k is good for the past month, now locking in taking it a bit lower.
 
Weight: 204.2 today. New low.

Today will be one of those days I eat closer to maintenance, but I'll trim calories from lunch to make up for it. Dinner will likely be out at longhorn, steak and plain baked potatoes.
 
GreenMachineX said:
lol yeah, quite sure you’re ahead of me though in strength and body comp
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I'm in a race against a relentless ghost that doesn't exist to a finishline that never arrives in a league of one where the division changes based upon life's circumstances du jour. I'm not sure its entirely possible to be ahead of anyone given the scenario 😂
 
Dustin07 said:
I'm in a race against a relentless ghost that doesn't exist to a finishline that never arrives in a league of one where the division changes based upon life's circumstances du jour. I'm not sure its entirely possible to be ahead of anyone given the scenario 😂
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meh, some competition between men is healthy!
 
Seated BB OHP 4 x 6/6/6/5 x 150
NG Pullups 4x4
Dips 3x8
Dual Pulley Cable Row 3 sets
Crossbody Lateral Raise 3 sets
Triceps OH Extension 3 sets

I'm NOT* doing standing press for the rest of the cut and only doing seated BB OHP twice per week. Reasoning is I believe standing is too fatiguing for the lack of recovery. I'm also just having fun moving more weight with seated.

Edited. Autocorrect is garbage.
 
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GreenMachineX said:
Seated BB OHP 4 x 6/6/6/5 x 150
NG Pullups 4x4
Dips 3x8
Dual Pulley Cable Row 3 sets
Crossbody Lateral Raise 3 sets
Triceps OH Extension 3 sets

I'm doing standing press for the rest of the cut and doing seated BB OHP twice per week. Reasoning is I believe standing is too fatiguing for the lack of recovery. I'm also just having fun moving more weight with seated.
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If you’re shoulder pressing 3x/wk this way, there’s no way it can’t be effective! They don’t all need to be standing, just one should be enough to train the stability.
 
Hyde said:
If you’re shoulder pressing 3x/wk this way, there’s no way it can’t be effective! They don’t all need to be standing, just one should be enough to train the stability.
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Oh my goodness, autocorrect literally changes what I'm saying sometimes. I meant I’m not* doing standing OHP for the rest of the cut.
 
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GreenMachineX said:
Oh my goodness, autocorrect literally changes what I'm saying sometimes. I meant I’m not* doing standing OHP for the rest of the cut.
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Well, there’s definitely no way you’ll get small shoulders doing seated press twice per week still lol. You may lose some standing strength, but that will come back when you return to the pattern since you will keep your delt size.
 
usually a coffee at 5am, another around 7am then maybe a sugar free monster/redbull in the afternoon.
preWO on heavy days, none on deloads. thats about it. half that on weekends.
 
600-900

That would look like 1-3 cups of coffee, an energy drink between 140-300, and preWO consisting of 250-350mg.

Only 250-450 on Saturdays because no training and it’s my highest cal, hi carb day. Cup of coffee, mild energy drink in the afternoon, maybe a soda or two. I am not training and don’t need appetite suppression.
 
akboom87 said:
Around the 600 mark , 2 cups of coffee then a 300-350mg preworkout.
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Hyde said:
600-900

That would look like 1-3 cups of coffee, an energy drink between 140-300, and preWO consisting of 250-350mg.

Only 250-450 on Saturdays because no training and it’s my highest cal, hi carb day. Cup of coffee, mild energy drink in the afternoon, maybe a soda or two. I am not training and don’t need appetite suppression.
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Dustin07 said:
its not real consistent but maybe on the top end.

coffee = 100
coffee = 100
redbull = 80
preWO = 150-200 I think

but sometimes I have one of these alanis my wife found at costco which are pretty OK and they have 200mg I think.
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I should’ve also asked…how often do y’all do a reset?
 
Something to consider too is other stimulants in preWOs. Not that you need to count their mg up, more just to consider everything you take that pushes on the adrenals ultimately has a cumulative cost.

From what I have seen in competitive powerlifting, some people really use a lot of caffeine and/or stimulants. They do what they feel it takes to get an edge (or justify their desires). Coke or amphetamines used to be rampant in some circles - and there are also absolutely top guys that think a scoop of C4 is only for their heaviest days. Some people use no caffeine at all. Doesn’t really seem to be correlated to size either.

So take what you like, and what you feel is acceptable. I wouldn’t really go off other people. Them doing meth should not be a good justification for you to 😝
 
Hyde said:
Something to consider too is other stimulants in preWOs. Not that you need to count their mg up, more just to consider everything you take that pushes on the adrenals ultimately has a cumulative cost.

From what I have seen in competitive powerlifting, some people really use a lot of caffeine and/or stimulants. They do what they feel it takes to get an edge (or justify their desires). Coke or amphetamines used to be rampant in some circles - and there are also absolutely top guys that think a scoop of C4 is only for their heaviest days. Some people use no caffeine at all. Doesn’t really seem to be correlated to size either.

So take what you like, and what you feel is acceptable. I wouldn’t really go off other people. Them doing meth should not be a good justification for you to 😝
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Right, of course. I’m asking because I’m currently up to 150mg caffeine daily and considering a reset already LOL
 
GreenMachineX said:
I should’ve also asked…how often do y’all do a reset?
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Resets are internet non-sense. That’s not how your receptors work. You can take a very long period off, you add caffeine back, and it feels incredible for about 3 days. Then you begin to accommodate. Doesn’t mean it’s not working, just that you get used to the feel. Same as all kinds of brain stimuli.

Now I do periodize stim usage based on need somewhat. Right now coming off the meet, before training I took a 2/3 scoop of Focus XT, a cup of coffee, and there was 50mg EJ in my carnitine blend shot. That’s maybe 200mg if you count the Eria even.

During the heaviest peaking sessions last month, stims were 3/4 scoop of Hooligan (so 350mg total), 2 caps Neurogize XT, 12.5mg ephedrine, plus the BP increase & stimulation of 100mg orals. That is not counting anything later in the day.
 
GreenMachineX said:
I should’ve also asked…how often do y’all do a reset?
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Hyde said:
Resets are internet non-sense. That’s not how your receptors work.
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are we talking about like a ban on caffiene for a while? that sounds horrible 😂 😂

pretty sure they linked caffiene to lower mortality. coffee at least.

its like fried foods, alcohol, calories, or anything else in general. if you think you've had a bit too much, cut back.

Like................... I'm not pounding 6 redbulls before bed. but no part of me is going to feel bad about having coffee in the morning. I admit though, I do feel a bit good about the fact that I don't need, or even want, caffiene / preWO during deload weeks. so I guess that would be a 'reset' but if I'm in a deficit, I will usually have an extra coffee to enterain me when I can't eat or am fasting.
 
Hyde said:
Right now coming off the meet, before training I took a 2/3 scoop of Focus XT, a cup of coffee, and there was 50mg EJ in my carnitine blend shot. That’s maybe 200mg if you count the Eria even.
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I think Layne posted a study that showed that caffiene intake had a direct impact on strength training.
Mark Bell (I know you're not a fan, but...) said something about how you can't take a preWO, wait 30 minutes, then lift that car off the baby.. which I get. and I like when I'm strong without it, but studies do show that caffiene impacts strength with a strong positive correlation IIRC.

as long as my chest isn't palpitating weird and I'm sleeping OK I truly don't care or worry about caffiene or fake sweetners tbh. we work so hard to cut so many things out of our life, if one of those kill me than criminy, so be it.
 
Dustin07 said:
are we talking about like a ban on caffiene for a while? that sounds horrible 😂 😂

pretty sure they linked caffiene to lower mortality. coffee at least.

its like fried foods, alcohol, calories, or anything else in general. if you think you've had a bit too much, cut back.

Like................... I'm not pounding 6 redbulls before bed. but no part of me is going to feel bad about having coffee in the morning. I admit though, I do feel a bit good about the fact that I don't need, or even want, caffiene / preWO during deload weeks. so I guess that would be a 'reset' but if I'm in a deficit, I will usually have an extra coffee to enterain me when I can't eat or am fasting.
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No, but 100mg or whatever doesn’t do what it used to right? Eventually, it only brings you up to “normal”, so you’re just operating at a deficit until it had enough caffeine to get back to normal. Or, just keep increasing until…when?

This was for @Hyde really.
 
Dustin07 said:
I think Layne posted a study that showed that caffiene intake had a direct impact on strength training.
Mark Bell (I know you're not a fan, but...) said something about how you can't take a preWO, wait 30 minutes, then lift that car off the baby.. which I get. and I like when I'm strong without it, but studies do show that caffiene impacts strength with a strong positive correlation IIRC.

as long as my chest isn't palpitating weird and I'm sleeping OK I truly don't care or worry about caffiene or fake sweetners tbh. we work so hard to cut so many things out of our life, if one of those kill me than criminy, so be it.
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Caffeine absolutely is a PED. It’s well documented - I believe force output was found to continue to increase through 600mg! And the LD50 is something like multiple grams, so even that big acute dose is generally “safe” for most. The problem being that for most people side effects like jitters, elevated heart rate, anxiety, sweats etc can be counterproductive to technical execution in sport and lifting. But IF you can tolerate the dose & execute, you will be stronger.

WADA actually has a fairly low caffeine limit on their doping policy, which the IPF & USAPL tested powerlifting allegedly adheres to. Unfortunately, the powerlifting feds do not actually test or enforce this - they’re only looking for hormonal modification drugs generally. There are many top tested lifters who privately admit to competing on loads of caffeine.

I actually take less caffeine on meet day usually, because of the extra BP I already have from being extra bloated and the extra androgens, plus game day adrenaline.
 
GreenMachineX said:
meh, some competition between men is healthy!
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And ghosts! Apparently in @Dustin07 case.

GreenMachineX said:
How much caffeine are you guys using per day including coffee?
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On average my guess is around 600mg.

For me a typical day could be,

PreWO: 150-300mg caffeine
AM coffee (80-100mg)
PM soda (
Hyde said:
Now I do periodize stim usage based on need somewhat. Right now coming off the meet, before training I took a 2/3 scoop of Focus XT, a cup of coffee, and there was 50mg EJ in my carnitine blend shot. That’s maybe 200mg if you count the Eria even.

During the heaviest peaking sessions last month, stims were 3/4 scoop of Hooligan (so 350mg total), 2 caps Neurogize XT, 12.5mg ephedrine, plus the BP increase & stimulation of 100mg orals. That is not counting anything later in the day.
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Similar here. As in this week I'm on a deload week, so my stim pre is only 150mg of caffeine.

On my heavier 5/3/1 days I might use a high stim pre, so 300-350mg +/- additional exotic stim ingredients in it.

I also don't use high stim intake on my cardio only days pre, but might have a full on energy drink in the afternoon - but candidly I'm not as high on those as much lately. A PM cup of coffee is more my speed lately.
 
I guess I don’t really do anything much different year round stays about the same.

Also weird how some of the stuff works, like I can do a preworkout for my evening sessions and go to sleep just fine. I can drink a cup of coffee in the evening sleep no problem.

Now if I drink ice tea past 4pm I’m wide awake until 1-2am 🤣
 
akboom87 said:
I guess I don’t really do anything much different year round stays about the same.

Also weird how some of the stuff works, like I can do a preworkout for my evening sessions and go to sleep just fine. I can drink a cup of coffee in the evening sleep no problem.

Now if I drink ice tea past 4pm I’m wide awake until 1-2am 🤣
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That’s bizarre. Today was the first day I had caffeine past 3pm (diet coke at 8pm), but I’m sure it’ll be fine.

You haven’t noticed tolerance to doing the same thing all year?
 
GreenMachineX said:
That’s bizarre. Today was the first day I had caffeine past 3pm (diet coke at 8pm), but I’m sure it’ll be fine.

You haven’t noticed tolerance to doing the same thing all year?
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Can’t say that I notice any difference. There is one preworkout I can’t do in the evening and that is edge of insanity, other then that seem to be fine.
 
TBDL 3 x 345/355/365, 2 singles at 370
BB Shrugs 3 sets
Cable Shrugs 2 sets
Leg Curls 3 sets
EZ Curls 2 or 3 sets
Alternating DB Curl 2 or 3 sets
Walking Lunges 1 set
Rear Delt Cable Fly 2 sets

Doesn’t seem like a lot of work but took forever. Probably resting too long.

Need to start working on my rear delts…definitely a weak point.
 
GreenMachineX said:
No, but 100mg or whatever doesn’t do what it used to right? Eventually, it only brings you up to “normal”, so you’re just operating at a deficit until it had enough caffeine to get back to normal. Or, just keep increasing until…when?

This was for @Hyde really.
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I honestly don't think about it a whole lot. I think about it enough to not pound energy drinks before bed, and I think about it in the same way that I think "I need to eat a salad" after three days of tater tots and onion rings, but otherwise I kinda just grab what I'm craving when I'm craving it.

The only caveat to that would be the morning coffee. It is an absolute requirement. It's the most important ritual of the day and I'm pretty sure it's the greatest contributor to the first dump of the day too, so there's that.

Oh and if I'm on a cut or fasting then I treat caffeine as a zero calorie "treat" to reward myself for the deficit. So

images (26).webp
 
Weight: 204.4

Still haven’t consistently pulled my calories down to 2800, but still losing fat anyway at ~3000 average, just slower than I’d like…although it’s nice to have minimal cutting side effects. Libido is fair, mood is decent, cognitive performance is fair and strength is only mildly impaired. Sleep is also minimal impaired.
 
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