Wife Has COVID-19
- Thread starter GreenMachineX
- Start date
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
What's ADE? I have no idea what you just said here lol.
Kronic
Well-known member
antibody dependant enhancment. basically vaccines making you get sicker
Rostam
Well-known member
No it just says you have enough antibodies at the time you do the test. This is why Switzerland limit the validity of the pass only 3 months after the serology test.
Rostam
Well-known member
wrong-march of this year...if you would have read my whole post instead of cherry picking the part you wanted to see just for arguments sake, you would know that i have been tested twice since i recovered from covid when i was in contact with people who tested positive.
both my wife and i had such mild symptoms, neither of us have any fear of re-infection---out biggest fear of reinfection is to not have any symptoms and spread to others unknowingly...and this is why we will continue to be tested when we have been in contact with anyone we have been in close contact with who tests positive.
btw-just so that you and everyone else knows my wife and i ALWAYS wear masks when in public, i don't want to argue about effectiveness, we just personally think it is the responsible thing to do---although we both are against mandates.
MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS Sorry if you feel offended by my message. I’m not cherry picking but being tested negative doesn’t mean you have natural immunity. Myself I’ve been in close contact with confirmed covid positive people and tested negative several times.
Does it mean I have natural immunity? No.
Would I have my pass based on this negative test? No.
Would I have my pass for 3 months if I have a positive serology test? Yes.
This is the difference and why I asked you if you have a serology test.
Marry Christmas to you too.
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Rostam
Well-known member
Sorry don’t see your point here. There are a chance you can’t get it twice. But how would you proof this to your authorities to get the pass or
make them accept your immunity? Again until a test could valid immunity I don’t believe any authorities will give life long pass based on the fact that some can’t catch it twice.
Kronic
Well-known member
the point is that if you are not checking b cell or t cells, they are wasting everyone's time with antibody tests
HIT4ME
Well-known member
On another note:
My girlfriend has a part-time job at a supermarket bakery. Someone she works with closely in the department is against vaccines, doesn’t take COVID seriously, and often removes his mask while working/talking with my GF. He told her a few days ago at work that he had cold symptoms and lost his sense of smell and taste. He obviously didn’t report these symptoms to their employer as he would be sent home. My GF just kept her distance the rest of that shift and hoped for the best. Also taking comfort in the fact that she is fully vaccinated.
Tonight she was scheduled to work with him again, and I told her that I was going to call the store manager and report that this associate was being dishonest and needs to be pulled out of work due to being COVID symptomatic. Otherwise, don’t expect my GF to be showing up and you best pay her for the shift regardless. I am sick and tired of ignorant self centered people. Done!
My girlfriend said that she would take care of the situation herself and just go to work. She just texted me to let me know the symptomatic associate was sent home
Just because GreenMachine called me in on this - he has portrayed my view well - but I'm going to re-iterate that I am not advocating that people can just be stupid and that Covid is not a threat, not real, etc. People act as @Ricky10 describes above should be heavily admonished. It's just foolish and rude.
There are people on both "sides" who are just unwilling to have a legitimate discussion about this, and any questioning of their own view of this "novel" virus, how it is handled, or what we are being told is just shut out.
My point is actually that - hygiene, cleanliness, some social distancing and reasonable precautions are necessary and pretending that the vaccines are working and we don't need those things anymore is foolish. We need to improve treatments and start adapting to life with this virus and try to stop believing in myth.
No vaccine is ever administered to 100% of the population - so blaming unvaccinated for high death rates is believing in myth.
Very few vaccines have more than 50% efficacy - so believing that in 9 months we effectively discovered, tested, and readied for mass-deployment a vaccine - two based on a platform previously unused in humans - that is miraculously 90% effective without question is utterly ridiculous on its face. Anyone who believes this without pause and astonishment is literally acting foolishly.
I am listening to Ricky though - he is NOT seeing vaccinated people in his practice, which is a good sign for the vaccine and I hope it is true - but if that is the case it raises some serious moral issues with becoming vaccinated because it could literally mean that by getting the vaccine you are making the world a more dangerous place for the unvaccinated people out there.
I agree that pushing vaccines on people has issues - and I know that natural inocculation is being overlooked. I would go one step further and throw out that more myth is being believed because the R0 of this virus was supposedly between 2-4 and that indicates that herd immunity would be achieved at 60-75% of the population, which we have achieved without a doubt at this point with just the vaccination status. Yet they are still pushing for more - suddenly we need 90%? 100%? It's just not based in science.
Having said that - natural immunity seems to wane, just like the vaccine - unless you are young. Pushing this so hard seems to border less on reason and somewhat on personal subjectivity/emotion and we have to be careful of that.
It seems that young people do somehow have long-term adaptations to the virus potentially which means that this is where vaccination may be good or it may be very bad. If the vaccines wane in the young still - natural inoculation may be a better alternative given that the risk is so low in them - it seems that only .03% of the covid cases in children become fatal.
@Ricky10 - this brings up another good point - have you ever seen anyone under 20 years old in your facility? Because in our region, 75% of the population is vaccinated and I have to imagine at least 10% of the population is below the age of 20. Add in the naturally inoculated/non-vaccinated individuals and we can probably agree that we are talking about 85-90% of the population int his group. So all these deaths you are seeing are in a mere 10-15% of the population?
This, if true, seems to raise a lot of issues that aren't being discussed.
Kronic
Well-known member
I think one thing people miss about natural immunity, is that you get an immune booster if you encounter the virus and don't get infected. Joe Rogan talks about this happening with his some Jamie. they test their antibodies regularly and his spiked eventually without getting sick again
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Now that's interesting. Raises the question for those of us who just got over it...should we not be wearing masks and being so over the top with social distance/hygiene? Of course, I'm not saying be a pig, but as everyone has seen in this thread, those OCD tendencies I have dominate...lol
Nodus1
Member
I'm having trouble following the logic here. This is like saying that people who wear seatbelts are making the roads more dangerous for drivers who don't wear seatbelts.
Even though it's far from established, let's entertain the theory that somehow the use of vaccines is making the virus more dangerous for the unvaccinated than it would be in the absence of any vaccines, where does the moral dilemma lie? Surely, laying guilt at those who took the protective measures available to everyone, would be misplaced. Perhaps there is a moral obligation of the unvaccinated to get vaccinated in order to lift that moral burden from the vaccinated innocents?
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
The unvaccinated taking a brand new drug without proven (read: well-established) safety data to lift the moral issue the vaccinated face? Nah.
And while I'm not saying I agree there is a moral dilemma, to compare it to wearing seat belts is way off and you know this.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
So, what we are seeing is, according to the party line that is being parroted, 75% of Americans are vaccinated and virtually NONE of them are being hospitalized (and presumably dying).
Yet the death rate has increased (the data posted earlier in this thread claiming it is lower than 2020 doesn't correlate with any of the reported data anywhere else, even Jen Psaki did not claim deaths were lower under Biden when asked by a reporter if Biden still believed "Any President who has last that many lives should step down.")
This means that, potentially, the burden of the 75% is being pushed onto the 25%.
This could simply be based on the fact that NO ONE is claiming the vaccine eliminates viral load or makes you less infectious. The very reason we were all told to stay home and where masks is because we could be infectious and not know it. Well, apparently you can now vaccinate and become even more likely to be infectious and not know it.
So I get vaccinated, go out in public because, what do I care now? and kill a bunch of unvaccinated people in the process.
And of course, I'm given kudos for doing this as well. Maybe even benefits - like being able to fly or not wear a mask, etc.
And of course, we don't care if minorities with less availability of health care are getting vax'd at a lower rate - that method of genocide is smart and acceptable (heavy sarcasm).
So, to use your seatbelt idea - it's like I know that if I crash into you I am very likely going to live because I have a seatbelt - so I just start crashing into people because I have a seatbelt and I'm immune to the crash. If you don't have one...oh well. You were stupid for not getting a seatbelt.
Kronic
Well-known member
are you talking about Delta? I'm pretty sure the death rate of omicron is not increasing
THOR 70
Well-known member
You absolutely need to stop saying that the vaccinated aren’t being hospitalized. Unless you have widespread reliable proof of this? Also please factor in the numerous vaccine deaths and injury into your calculations.
Not trying to be a dick but this the the whole problem with this covid thing. We have had incredibly unreliable, unorganized and misleading data from the whole time. Obviously by design. It’s super shady
thebigt
Legend
on the flipside look how many in the WH have recently tested positive although having 2 vaccine shots plus booster shot...i am basing my immunity on not having been reinfected even though being around those that have tested positive.
of course i can't rule out that my wife and i have superior genetics and those working in WH have sub-par genetics?
MERRY CHRISTMAS
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Sorry, I was incorporating my prior explanations. If we believe the party line that virtually no one who is vaccinated is dying - then the death rate in the unvaccinated is dramatically increasing, and I mean dramatically - which is the crux of the potential moral issue.
You cannot reduce the effected population by 75% and have an equal or greater number of deaths in the remaining population unless, of course, the death rate has increased to compensate.
And of course, I am suggesting this isn't some sort of ADE or any kind of magic - but rather it is based in the exact idea that made us so scared of covid to begin with - people could be carriers and infect others who are susceptible to the virus. Only now people have chosen to protect themselves by making themselves almost immune to the virus (if you believe the myths being pushed about the vaccine) without reducing their ability to infect someone else at all, which even the scientists who made the vax have said was never a primary goal.
Not trying to be a dick, but you need to understand the context and meaning of my posts before having a knee-jerk reaction. Lmao. (Just playing brother...I live ya)
I am using the ideas being presented by the other side to show some issues and discrepancies in their thought process.
I don't need to factor anything else in because, just using the logic provided by the other side I could answer the question being asked about the potential moral issues of being someone who chooses to vaccinate. I didn't really make any calculations, and to your point t even the data on our side regarding side effects, etc. Is unreliable so why fight unreliable data with more unreliable data when I can just show the data being used by the other side is unreliable?
I mean, I did start the post with, "according to the party line that is being parroted...."
Nodus1
Member
On the other hand, forego vaccinations so you have exponentially higher risk of being hospitalized and dying, just like the unvaccinated? Nah. Sounds like a socialist shared misery racket. I know that's not what you are saying, but it has to be one of the options in this phony moral dilemma scenario.
Seatbelts were not mean to be a direct analogy but rather a challenge to the idea that the vaccinated are making the situation worse for the unvaccinated.
No. This is the problem I have with this line of thought. You are correlating two data points and inferring causation - and then constructing a (possible?) moral dilemma. I'd have to see that that theory undergo a lot more rigorous scientific scrutiny before even looking down that road.
[/QUOTE]
Just because I might have made a bad analogy doesn't mean you get to make a worse one.
For the record, I'm vaccinated (J&J) and I chose the J&J vaccine because I thought it was the least experimental of the three available to me. I spoke to my doctor and made a decision I thought smartest for me. BUT, I am NOT in favor of any vax mandates whatsoever. I think the authorities have screwed the pooch over and over with their messaging and general handling of the pandemic. I forgot about Biden's statement that a President who has lost so many lives should step down. I'd love to see his feet held to the fire continuously over this.
Kronic
Well-known member
I don't think youre being a dick, just closed minded. 75% vaccinated and we still have a pandemic? some countries literally have 90% of adults vaccinated. is it really not clear that they aren't working as intended? and with omicron being less of a threat, fear mongering has no place. most hospitalizations with omicron are not due to omicron, so let's stop with this **** about things getting worse.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Just because I might have made a bad analogy doesn't mean you get to make a worse one.
For the record, I'm vaccinated (J&J) and I chose the J&J vaccine because I thought it was the least experimental of the three available to me. I spoke to my doctor and made a decision I thought smartest for me. BUT, I am NOT in favor of any vax mandates whatsoever. I think the authorities have screwed the pooch over and over with their messaging and general handling of the pandemic. I forgot about Biden's statement that a President who has lost so many lives should step down. I'd love to see his feet held to the fire continuously over this.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, the "deadlier" delta variant didn't come about until after the vaccine rollout....could very well be the vaccinated (or the vaccine manufacturers more accurately) fault for that. There's only one hard and fast thing we all know about covid...and it's that still don't know much. And we know less about the vaccines (mRNA ones specifically).
AdelV
Well-known member
Alot of people are testing positive in Australia at the moment, 2 people on my Facebook, they said theyve had worse hayfever than Covid! They only got tested due to being a close contact, people here are getting pretty angry.
People are testing positive, and literally feel fine.
More lockdowns, everyone's over it. I think more people have died from the standard Flu than Covid in Australia.
I have Asthma, and I'm not even vaccinated! My gym has been a Hot Spot multiple times and if I had Covid I haven't noticed
My day to day symptoms from Asthma are basically the same as Covid
Hope everyone stays safe.
People are testing positive, and literally feel fine.
More lockdowns, everyone's over it. I think more people have died from the standard Flu than Covid in Australia.
I have Asthma, and I'm not even vaccinated! My gym has been a Hot Spot multiple times and if I had Covid I haven't noticed
My day to day symptoms from Asthma are basically the same as Covid
Hope everyone stays safe.
Nodus1
Member
That isn't correct. The delta variant was identified in India in late 2020 - around the same time as vaccines were being announced. It wasn't named "Delta" until May 2021. Saying it "very well could be the [vaccine's] fault for that" is even less credible than calling ivermectin "horse medicine" at this point. I'm not saying it's impossible - I'm saying the theory needs to be put under far more scientific scrutiny before I take it seriously.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Oh, I'll take that back then. Quite unlikely given that. Although, now the theory that vaccines caused delta is on par with calling ivermectin horse medicine. Just as silly. Ivermectin is house medicine...and human medicine...and dog medicine. In fact, gave my dog his Heartgard this morning which has ivermectin in it this morning! lol
thebigt
Legend
if one were to look up the list medicines that are prescribed to both humans and animals it would be a long list...the list becomes only somewhat shorter for 'FOOD' animals for obvious reasons.
i was curious and looked up 'OFF LABEL' uses for several of the drugs i have been prescribed over my 63 years, very interesting indeed.
isn't it fascinating that Harvard Health says that the anti-depressant fluvoxamine prevents severe illness and hospitalizations from covid-19...who would have thunk it?
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Agreed on all accounts. Off label use of prescriptions is nothing new...happens all the time. Only a big deal now when ivermectin treatment is being suppressed-
thebigt
Legend
considering the FACT that many vaccinated had previously been infected and many vaccinated WILL get infected, AND that the vast number of those who are both vaccinated and UNVACCINATED have, and will continue to survive....you can tell your grandpa that there is a 3rd and by far larger group---THOSE WHO HAVE HAD COVID AND SURVIVED!!!
Kronic
Well-known member
he got heart problems from moderna too lol
thebigt
Legend
very sorry to hear this!!!
Kronic
Well-known member
I was too at first. but he just invited my unvaccinated cousin over for Christmas, but then last minute uninvited him in favor of hanging out with friends. me and him are the only people in the family who aren't vaccinated, and we are also the only ones into bodybuilding
thebigt
Legend
very unfortunate situation...i am still sorry to hear he developed heart problems.
Kronic
Well-known member
I appreciate the sentiment, but he's basically wishing the same illness on me and my cousin. kinda seems like he deserves it at this point.
thebigt
Legend
or it could be he is suffering from some sort of age related mental illness?
seems kind of extreme for a grandpa to wish harm on grandson....just sayin.
Kronic
Well-known member
maybe idk. lotta vaccinated folks feel like others need to take the risk because they did. I think that's why. but fuktard is so stubborn I can't even have a conversation with him (or grandma) anymore. I was supposed to inherit a gun or two from him, but I think I'm good with never seeing him again.
thebigt
Legend
the divide is deep!!!
rob112
Well-known member
My brother went to my aunts and she asked if he was vaccinated at the door and when he said no they made him wear a mask. Needless to say he didn’t stay long and I just called and didn’t go. As if only unvaccinated spread Covid.
Whoever started this crap that vaccines stop the spread of Covid should be fired immediately. It’s sad bc it’s family, but he said they looked like ****. They completely sheltered their lives from the start of the pandemic and it shows.
A lot of people died during Covid that are still walking around every day. Truly sad.
Kronic
Well-known member
I actually have been mostly safe since the start of the pandemic. but I have been lifting the whole time and also spending it with my gf. I work from home and lift from home. not gonna lie, the fact that the pandemic made me able to go full remote work allowed me to eat a lot better. unfortunately most people don't take that advantage it seems.
I'm lacking a bit in social interaction because I'm unvaccinated and most of the people I know are closed minded hard left leaners. good ole tech industry
as for who told people that the vaccines would prevent you from getting covid... I think only biden has said that lmao
thebigt
Legend
'if you get the vaccine you won't get covid'-joe biden july 2021
LeanEngineer
Legend
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Just to be clear here - one of the things I'm saying is that the more effective the vaccine becomes, has no influence on whether the mandate is moral or not.
For instance, washing hands is a very effective means of preventing the transmission of communicable disease - particularly for the one washing their hands.
If you choose not to wash your hands, you will spread disease - and if I am privy to the knowledge that you don't wash your hands I may avoid shaking hands with you. Given the fact, however, that I will have very little knowledge of most people's hand washing schedule or technique - I can protect myself quite a bit by washing my own hands. Would it be moral for me to mandate that everyone wash their hands on the same schedule as me? Or do I have no right to tell them what to do, since I have a choice that can protect me in a reasonable fashion and thus their choice will have little effect on me?
If I am essentially immune to a choice that you make, why do I have any right to tell you what choice you are allowed to make?
Personally, I like the seatbelt angle (sure it is imperfect, but what analogy isn't?)- if you choose not to wear a seatbelt it does not endanger me anymore, because I have a seatbelt of my own that does provide a benefit. It is just smart to wear so most people have adopted wearing a seatbelt and have little concern over whether or not the person next door has a seatbelt.
And if I get in a car and the driver puts his seatbelt on with haste....you better believe I am going to be a bit nervous of riding in the car with them. What are they trying to make themselves immune to with such fervor?
On the other hand, forego vaccinations so you have exponentially higher risk of being hospitalized and dying, just like the unvaccinated? Nah. Sounds like a socialist shared misery racket. I know that's not what you are saying, but it has to be one of the options in this phony moral dilemma scenario.
Seatbelts were not mean to be a direct analogy but rather a challenge to the idea that the vaccinated are making the situation worse for the unvaccinated.
No. This is the problem I have with this line of thought. You are correlating two data points and inferring causation - and then constructing a (possible?) moral dilemma. I'd have to see that that theory undergo a lot more rigorous scientific scrutiny before even looking down that road.
Just because I might have made a bad analogy doesn't mean you get to make a worse one.
For the record, I'm vaccinated (J&J) and I chose the J&J vaccine because I thought it was the least experimental of the three available to me. I spoke to my doctor and made a decision I thought smartest for me. BUT, I am NOT in favor of any vax mandates whatsoever. I think the authorities have screwed the pooch over and over with their messaging and general handling of the pandemic. I forgot about Biden's statement that a President who has lost so many lives should step down. I'd love to see his feet held to the fire continuously over this.
I'm not sure why you think the moral dilemma is "phony"? If it seems phony, I based it entirely on the logic of the people pushing for vaccines and claiming they are super effective - so if you believe that vaccines are showing effectiveness and/or that mandating them is an option, but this seems phony - maybe you should consider your analysis of the viewpoint. Maybe this isn't your stance, and things have just gotten confused...it seems easy to take a post by itself and forget the context in this thread. Understandably so.
And of course, you follow the same pattern - throwing out a seatbelt analogy to prove your point, but when you see that logic of the analogy doesn't go in the direction you actually wanted - oh, well suddenly it's not such a great analogy and we should forget it. (I'm poking you for fun here....)
I'm also not sure what correlation I am using here?? I'm using simple math. Not even calculus - just basic algebra and reason.
Given that the vaccines are super effective and almost no one (supposedly) shows up in a hospital if they are vaccinated - we can assume that at least 95% of the current covid deaths are unvaccinated individuals.
If A = % of the unvaccinated population
If B = Population Death Rate
If C = Total # of Deaths in the population
And given that A*B = C
And Given that 100%*(B) = 350,000 deaths
You cannot have .25(100%)*B = >350,000 deaths unless the death rate in the unvaccinated population increased.
As a matter of fact, .25(100%)*B cannot even be greater than 87,500 unless B increases.
There is no magic there, there is no argument to be made. The death rate in the unvaccinated population has gone up, IF you believe the vaccine is anywhere near as effective as claimed.
Now, I laid out one possible cause, which is also the second most likely - but there are others.
1. It could be magic (I don't believe in magic so I admittedly discount this heavily).
2. The vaccine may not be so effective after all (I think this is the #1 scenario)
3. It could be that the vaccinated are carrying the disease, potentially at even higher loads, and spreading it but the unvaccinated - lacking the extraordinary protection afforded by a year old vaccine with no controlled human trials - are falling victim to contact with such individuals. It's akin to getting into the car with the driver who hastily ensures he's putting on his seatbelt because he doesn't care if he crashes into the tree - but you don't have one. He is going to do all kinds of stupid things driving because, whatever, he's good. But you're in greater danger because he has immunity that allows him to do things he wouldn't do without that immunity and you don't have that benefit but are still exposed to his actions. (I would say this is my #2)
4. It could be some kind of vaccine-enhanced function of the virus - which I think leans a little in the direction of magic but in either case is not as simple/effective of an answer as #2 or #3.
Either way, I have not correlated or constructed anything. I believe #2 is the most likely scenario. I believe #3 is the 2nd most likely scenario. Both lead to some moral dilemas around mandates and even, potentially, getting the vaccine as it is today. It may be placing a burden on the have-nots. Maybe the mandate is that all vaccinated individuals should stay home to prevent them from unknowingly spreading the disease?
Now, your last paragraph we are in complete agreement with. I think part of the issue here is - I'm using the logic from one side of the argument and allowing it to stand on its own - and the people making those claims find it to be utterly ridiculous but refuse to realize I'm just following their logic - and the people who are even on my side don't realize I'm using the other side's logic to show how ridiculous the thought process is?
Not sure how I'm being closed minded? I'm arguing quite a bit in your favor here -
Is it really not clear that the vaccines aren't working? (The crux of my arguments to date)
Some people have found it to be inconsistent to say the vaccines are not working - stating that the majority of the cases in hospitals are in unvaccinated people.
So I've gone along and presented the case using the assumptions that:
1. The vaccine is super effective as suggested,
2. That we've vaccinated 75% of the population, as we have
3. We still have an equal or greater number of deaths in 2021 under this scenario as we did in a 100% unvaccinated population.
And of course - those assumptions, if we choose to accept them as true, lead to some really big concerns - including potential moral complications for the vaccinated population placing additional burden on the unvaccinated population.
Nodus1
Member
I thought I made myself pretty clear by now, but just to clear any confusion:
1.) I think vaccines are effective at reducing the severity of infection and likelihood of hospitalization or death. (A simple, straightforward statement. No need to read anything more, or less, into it.)
2.) I am against all covid vaccine mandates. (Same as above)
In all of the scenarios and formula you laid out, unless I missed it, you neglected to include the possibility that the emergence of the Delta variant is responsible for the increased death rate. It is not disputed that Delta is a more virulent strain of the virus. Did you simply forget about Delta?
rob112
Well-known member
Good for you man. I work in a department with 3 people. Only time I’m around more than that is breaks which ironically is when I can take the mask off.
Kronic
Well-known member
my GF wants to hang out on New year's Eve, she will be 9 days since showing symptoms then. still not confirmed if actually it's actually covid.
I'm glad I bought her a thermometer gun before we left. she's 98 degrees now. so I'm thinking it might be safe to see her New year's eve
I'm glad I bought her a thermometer gun before we left. she's 98 degrees now. so I'm thinking it might be safe to see her New year's eve
rob112
Well-known member
She’s a boy band from the early 2’s? Lol
Around me it’s a pain to get tested Bc everyone thinks everything is Covid it’s nuts. I had to call around for at home for the boy and luckily found one. Even urgent cares said like 2 days out.