Finally. THE BLR PRE WORKOUT THREAD. New product leaks

Jeremyk1

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Honestly.. I didn't know what your approach was. When you say "I suspect I will add stims", to me, it means you're not sure that you will add stims to it. To assess the benefits of mystery ingredients, the formula should have been used the way it was designed to be used. So, the entire statement was confusing. Anyway, hopefully other reviewers will come up soon and use it standalone.
Honestly, I do feel that his review is still valid. By adding caffeine to keep it more in line with what he’s used to, he actually limited variables in a way. If he took it solo and got good pumps, is that because the product delivers pumps, or because he took a lower amount of vasoconstrictors?
 
Ricky10

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Honestly, I do feel that his review is still valid. By adding caffeine to keep it more in line with what he’s used to, he actually limited variables in a way. If he took it solo and got good pumps, is that because the product delivers pumps, or because he took a lower amount of vasoconstrictors?
Someone who gets it....right here ^^

It’s almost like you actually thoroughly read my posts too!
 
jtmass

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Honestly, I do feel that his review is still valid. By adding caffeine to keep it more in line with what he’s used to, he actually limited variables in a way. If he took it solo and got good pumps, is that because the product delivers pumps, or because he took a lower amount of vasoconstrictors?
I wasn't saying his review is invalid. But, simply stating my expectation. It's a preworkout afterall.. People use it differently all the time. Also, with your statement above, it should mean that a lot of heavy non-stim Preworkouts should give massive pumps. but, that's never the case as well. I have tried many of the heavy duty non-stims and didn't get anything extra ordinary. So, having less or no vasoconstrictors, doesn't really equate to greater pumps.
 
Ricky10

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I wasn't saying his review is invalid. But, simply stating my expectation. It's a preworkout afterall.. People use it differently all the time.
Yes, it would be naive of us to think that people aren’t ultimately going to end up playing around with this a bit. Adding in some of their own personal favorites etc....maybe even stims...haha!

I was looking forward to hearing back from other testers that were possibly lower stim or non-stim as well. I made it clear I was the high stim tester...yet still offered not to do so in the interest of what brundel preferred. Again, I truly thought that what I had to offer out of my experience was just going to be a piece of the puzzle from a variety of people. I didn’t expect things to turn out this way at all..
 
jtmass

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Yes, it would be naive of us to think that people aren’t ultimately going to end up playing around with this a bit. Adding in some of their own personal favorites etc....maybe even stims...haha!

I was looking forward to hearing back from other testers that were possibly lower stim or non-stim as well. I made it clear I was the high stim tester...yet still offered not to do so in the interest of what brundel preferred. Again, I truly thought that what I had to offer out of my experience was just going to be a piece of the puzzle from a variety of people. I didn’t expect things to turn out this way at all..
Nah man.. it’s fine. It’s just discussions.
 
Ricky10

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Nah man.. it’s fine. It’s just discussions.
Well, I do recommend that you purchase. You sound very interested, so I suspect you plan to anyway. I could definitely tell it had some great potential and the energy was definitely a different sensation than I am accustomed to. I was able to consume considerably less caffeine/stims than I normally do. I find that quite impressive..
 
jtmass

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Well, I do recommend that you purchase. You sound very interested, so I suspect you plan to anyway. I could definitely tell it had some great potential and the energy was definitely a different sensation than I am accustomed to. I was able to consume considerably less caffeine/stims than I normally do. I find that quite impressive..
From almost 1gm of stim usage (caffeine and exotics), now my stim usage is about 0-200mg. So, absolutely, I am a customer.
 
Ricky10

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From almost 1gm of stim usage (caffeine and exotics), now my stim usage is about 0-200mg. So, absolutely, I am a customer.
Nice work! There’s obviously an abundance of people out there that have abused high stim PWOs for years. I am certainly far from being alone in that regard, and I think more people like myself will take an interest in this product than even brundel may anticipate. The high stims feel great at first, then you need more and more for even less in return. Some products are certainly better than others though in regard to tolerance. I really think you are going to enjoy this, as are many others!
 

Jeremyk1

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I wasn't saying his review is invalid. But, simply stating my expectation. It's a preworkout afterall.. People use it differently all the time. Also, with your statement above, it should mean that a lot of heavy non-stim Preworkouts should give massive pumps. but, that's never the case as well. I have tried many of the heavy duty non-stims and didn't get anything extra ordinary. So, having less or no vasoconstrictors, doesn't really equate to greater pumps.
Well everyone seemed a little upset about the extra caffeine. I was just pointing out that he actually eliminated a variable by doing so. Anyway, personally I think vasoconstriction from stims is way overblown. No offense to brundel, but I strongly disagree with him on this point. Like when he says that stims will counteract everything in a preworkout. I just cannot believe that. I definitely agree with you there, I’ve had some stim free options that didn’t do much, and some high stim options that seemed to actually improve the pump.
 
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It was my suspicion at the time because I had not officially heard back from brundel until he posted that he was “interested to see how it works with higher stims”

Like I just explained in post #198 ;)
Why not just take the sample and run it as a standalone
This way you understand how the product works exactly as advertised and designed

I mean I could drink a bang energy drink and take a pre-workout
But then it doesn't always mean that is how the original pre-workout should feel, does it?
The whole point of a review.. is to REVIEW that product. Anyone can add non-stims, other external stims, and things to skew what the feedback should be on the beta sample. That does not always help a company when they try to reformulate, tweak, or design their final product if other aspects are thrown into the mix.
 
jtmass

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Why not just take the sample and run it as a standalone
This way you understand how the product works exactly as advertised and designed

I mean I could drink a bang energy drink and take a pre-workout
But then it doesn't always mean that is how the original pre-workout should feel, does it?
The whole point of a review.. is to REVIEW that product. Anyone can add non-stims, other external stims, and things to skew what the feedback should be on the beta sample. That does not always help a company when they try to reformulate, tweak, or design their final product if other aspects are thrown into the mix.
I didn’t think about this angle. But a very valid point here. Only if brundel could tag the other members who got the sample and test it out. I think, we will get all perspectives depending on how people use it. That’s the best part about a PRE. You can play around with it to see what effect it has on the delivery..
 
Ricky10

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Why not just take the sample and run it as a standalone
This way you understand how the product works exactly as advertised and designed

I mean I could drink a bang energy drink and take a pre-workout
But then it doesn't always mean that is how the original pre-workout should feel, does it?
The whole point of a review.. is to REVIEW that product. Anyone can add non-stims, other external stims, and things to skew what the feedback should be on the beta sample. That does not always help a company when they try to reformulate, tweak, or design their final product if other aspects are thrown into the mix.
OK, so to repeat myself AGAIN..

That’s exactly the reason I asked him prior to taking it. Instead, I opted to limit the variables (in my case) to something closer to a constant as far as caffeine content, and brundel appeared to be interested in that too. Nor did any of us think I was going to the only person offering feedback at this stage. Bare in mind, the product I was sent was not even a complete beta version. Even if I had taken the sample as is, it technically would not have been a truly accurate reflection of the formula even at that time.

I think we all know that he didn’t send me 1 sample of an incomplete beta version with any intentions of tweaking it at this time based on my experience alone. Let’s not be silly..
 
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Ricky10

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I can say the comparison to whats on the market doesn't really do it justice. Its indeed on its own in several areas.
I didn’t think about this angle. But a very valid point here. Only if brundel could tag the other members who got the sample and test it out. I think, we will get all perspectives depending on how people use it. That’s the best part about a PRE. You can play around with it to see what effect it has on the delivery..
It appears that @TheMovement has tried the product? He could possibly add more feedback..

It is rather mysterious that nobody else has said anything. Maybe they weren’t AM members?
 
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Bare in mind, the product I was sent was not even a complete beta version. Even if I had taken the sample as is, it technically would not have been a truly accurate reflection of the formula even at that time.

I think we all know that he didn’t send me 1 sample of an incomplete beta version with any intentions of tweaking it at this time based on my experience alone. Let’s not be silly..
Bare in mind, if a company is tweaking or altering a product and if you continue to throw variables in the mix they will not know exactly how the beta sample works on its own.
That is what they are trying to gauge an environment of beta testers who all take the same sample packet and gather feedback to modify based on the reaction of the testers.

If Tester X decides to add a non-stim.. The outcome will be different
If Tester Y decides to add more stims ... The outcome will be different
If Tester Z decides to add both.. The outcome will be different.

Again. Too many variables and different outcomes when you take the sample and start to add additional things on your own taking away from what the company wants and what they are putting out. Therefore when people get their tubs or the product and don't see what you got out of it, they then realize oh Tester Y put more caffeine maybe I need to take an additional energy drink or stimulant pill to get my desired outcome.
 
Ricky10

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Yes, I certainly understand your approach is very X, Y, Z to everything...and I respect that. I didn’t hide the fact that I was tester Y either..

Trust me, if I had it to do over again, I would have taken the product without anything else to avoid all this.
 
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TheMovement

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It appears that @TheMovement has tried the product? He could possibly add more feedback..

It is rather mysterious that nobody else has said anything. Maybe they weren’t AM members?
I did indeed have the opportunity to test the product completely on its own and within parameters on a session and environment I was familiar with. Hence why I am buying. Acute effects are one thing and Long term effects are a whole other BEAST.

I did not and have not shared simply because the owner never asked or said to. Many companies wouldn't want too much info leaked outside of a small circle until doing so. If and we he does I most certainly will. Until then, Im awaiting the full product with the rest of the AM family.
 
mechka_grizli

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Bare in mind, if a company is tweaking or altering a product and if you continue to throw variables in the mix they will not know exactly how the beta sample works on its own.
That is what they are trying to gauge an environment of beta testers who all take the same sample packet and gather feedback to modify based on the reaction of the testers.

If Tester X decides to add a non-stim.. The outcome will be different
If Tester Y decides to add more stims ... The outcome will be different
If Tester Z decides to add both.. The outcome will be different.

Again. Too many variables and different outcomes when you take the sample and start to add additional things on your own taking away from what the company wants and what they are putting out. Therefore when people get their tubs or the product and don't see what you got out of it, they then realize oh Tester Y put more caffeine maybe I need to take an additional energy drink or stimulant pill to get my desired outcome.
I disagree with you and JT. If he is use to running stims, and then does not take them with the formula then that in itself is introducing another variable. Taking stims IS his baseline. He even mentioned that he didn't need to to take as much as he normally does, which means, the pre contributed to his energy levels. If he took NO stims then had a $hitty workout, that would lead to his review actually being less valid in my mind. No energy = $hitty workout.
 
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I disagree with you and JT. If he is use to running stims, and then does not take them with the formula then that in itself is introducing another variable. Taking stims IS his baseline. He even mentioned that he didn't need to to take as much as he normally does, which means, the pre contributed to his energy levels. If he took NO stims then had a $hitty workout, that would lead to his review actually being less valid in my mind. No energy = $hitty workout.
If you need stims to have a good workout, you should check your diet and sleep first. Nobody needs to have a massive stim bomb to pick up a weight or have a good workout. If you cant adjust your nutrition to put your body in an optimal state for a workout then you should go back to square one before investing in pre-workouts. That is the biggest issue with most on these forums they try to supplement a bad diet (not saying Ricky does, but it is a common theme).

If you want to give a company honest feedback on the product they are releasing throwing in multiple different variables or adjusting what is in the beta-test does not give the company proper feedback.

lets put out formula X for beta-testing, but having individuals add Y and Z. The feedback is all over the place and when trying to realize how good their own base is, it is impossible. So knowing from a company standpoint if they have to adjust, tweak, or modify the original formula won't help them because nobody has taken the product on its own, in a controlled environment.

If Brundel sent out 10 samples

2 people took them AS IS (Controlled and how they should be taken)
1 person added 100mg caffeine
1 person added 200mg caffeine
1 person drank a bang and took the pre-workout
2 people stacked a non-stim
2 People stacked with another pre-workout
1 Person added a non-stim + Caffeine

Tell me.. as a company owner when feedback is all over the place with various situations. How can you come to a conclusion if your base sample (what you sent out) needs to be adjusted it loggers continued to stack, modify, and skew the feedback?

Of course people will want to "Stack" other things, but that does not help BLR formulate a pre-workout when they can't get proper feedback due to multiple testers adjusting the beta-sample and leaving a "Controlled" Sample testing.
 
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Ricky10

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I did indeed have the opportunity to test the product completely on its own and within parameters on a session and environment I was familiar with. Hence why I am buying. Acute effects are one thing and Long term effects are a whole other BEAST.

I did not and have not shared simply because the owner never asked or said to. Many companies wouldn't want too much info leaked outside of a small circle until doing so. If and we he does I most certainly will. Until then, Im awaiting the full product with the rest of the AM family.
Gotcha! Thanks for chiming in to explain why you remained on the down-low.
I think we are all looking forward to experiencing the longer term effects as well!
 

Jeremyk1

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If you need stims to have a good workout, you should check your diet and sleep first. Nobody needs to have a massive stim bomb to pick up a weight or have a good workout. If you cant adjust your nutrition to put your body in an optimal state for a workout then you should go back to square one before investing in pre-workouts. That is the biggest issue with most on these forums they try to supplement a bad diet (not saying Ricky does, but it is a common theme).

If you want to give a company honest feedback on the product they are releasing throwing in multiple different variables or adjusting what is in the beta-test does not give the company proper feedback.

lets put out formula X for beta-testing, but having individuals add Y and Z. The feedback is all over the place and when trying to realize how good their own base is, it is impossible. So knowing from a company standpoint if they have to adjust, tweak, or modify the original formula won't help them because nobody has taken the product on its own, in a controlled environment.

If Brundel sent out 10 samples

2 people took them AS IS (Controlled and how they should be taken)
1 person added 100mg caffeine
1 person added 200mg caffeine
1 person drank a bang and took the pre-workout
2 people stacked a non-stim
2 People stacked with another pre-workout
1 Person added a non-stim + Caffeine

Tell me.. as a company owner when feedback is all over the place with various situations. How can you come to a conclusion if your base sample (what you sent out) needs to be adjusted it loggers continued to stack, modify, and skew the feedback?

Of course people will want to "Stack" other things, but that does not help BLR formulate a pre-workout when they can't get proper feedback due to multiple testers adjusting the beta-sample and leaving a "Controlled" Sample testing.
I don’t want to keep this back-and-forth going forever, but I want to give a quick example here. If someone were going to test out a joint formula when they already take fish oil every day, would you recommend they drop the fish oil simply to see how the formula works on its own? To me, no. Taking, say, 3 grams of fish oil is this person’s baseline, reducing that introduces a new variable. If Ricky has a “baseline” caffeine dose he takes each day, I would treat it the same.
 
Ricky10

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I don’t want to keep this back-and-forth going forever, but I want to give a quick example here. If someone were going to test out a joint formula when they already take fish oil every day, would you recommend they drop the fish oil simply to see how the formula works on its own? To me, no. Taking, say, 3 grams of fish oil is this person’s baseline, reducing that introduces a new variable. If Ricky has a “baseline” caffeine dose he takes each day, I would treat it the same.
I appreciate the fact that a few people like yourself have piped up that understand why I approached using my sample the way I did. I was honored to do so, and it was a carefully calculated decision on my part. It even took me a fair amount of time to chose which stimulant to pair it with. I wanted something that had zero risk of being overpowering, but was enough to keep my mood up. 150mg of an XR release caffeine blend, 100mg Dynamine, and 200mg Theanine is far from being a stim bomb by any stretch. It really falls into the category of a nootropic blend more than anything else.

I only added the second stim after already working out for at least 1 hr (again baseline for me-did it today in fact), which was ample time to gauge how things were going. The second stim was a proprietary blend, but it is also did not contain anything that people would consider to be harsh or any exotic stims. The serving size is 3 pills, and I only took 1. I would divulge, but I don’t want to promote other companies in a BLR thread.

I do see where everyone is coming from though, including those who voiced their displeasure in my approach. I’m still not quite sure why people saved the criticism for after the fact. Bottom line though, it worked out quite well for me, and I was able to achieve this by taking significantly less product than my norm.

Yes, I hope we can all move beyond this now and get back to focusing on receiving more leaks from brundel, the next round of feedback on the complete samples, and all of us receiving our first tubs!
 
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Humble

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Been out of pocket on AM for a while. But I am interested in the new BLR pre-workout.

Just wanted to post my vote for Cherry LimeAid and Lemon drop flavors.

Thanks!
 
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I don’t want to keep this back-and-forth going forever, but I want to give a quick example here. If someone were going to test out a joint formula when they already take fish oil every day, would you recommend they drop the fish oil simply to see how the formula works on its own? To me, no. Taking, say, 3 grams of fish oil is this person’s baseline, reducing that introduces a new variable. If Ricky has a “baseline” caffeine dose he takes each day, I would treat it the same.
Tell me one pre-workout that has fish oil in it? None.

If you want a "Controlled" baseline and the fairest and most comprehensive way to test a formula you take it as is. This way Brundel and BLR know if they need to add X,Y,Z based off the feedback when it was taken as it was produced.

IF I add 4g Citrulline and 200mg caffeine to a pre-workout that is unlabeled and given to me for a beta-test that going to skew what another tester or a GROUP of testers may feel compared to just taking a beta sample of a pre.

Think of this beta-test like a scientific study. If you want the best and most optimal results what would you do? Compare a Placebo (Nothing) vs the Pre (BLR Pre-Workout) Give it to 10 samples, record the difference, and see how effective it is on resistance training. If the BLR Pre-Workout did not provide many benefits, the company has to go back to the drawing board and improve their doses, ingredients, or overall formula.

That is the issue. Adding in any kind of vasolidator, NO Enhancer, or added caffeine takes away from the baseline sample produced. Which then does not give a clear indication of how good the pre-workout is the company is producing. Look at it from the formulators shoes.
 
jswain34

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You missed the point with the fish oil example Bob. He clearly says "if someone is testing a joint formula".

If you want to test something you try to keep everything else constant (eg. stim intake, workout plan, peri-workout nutrition) in order to isolate that single variable that we want to look at (eg. this pre workout). If you dont keep all of the other inputs the same you have no idea whether the effect youre seeing is from the addition of X of the subtraction of Y.

In your example, you would have the placebo group continue with their regular supplementation and add an inert pill/mixture/whatever and compare that to the "treatment arm" where the subjects do their best to keep everything else in regards to their regular habits constant and then add in the new variable. You wouldnt have the treatment arm discontinue everything else that they had been doing because that actually leads you to having less of an ability to isolate the single variable and reliably state that the observed effect was from the new variable.

While i do get what you're saying, and you're correct that adding stuff takes away from the product, when given to someone who apparently has a huge baseline stim intake it really doesnt do the pre justice to have him take it without at least close to his level of baseline stims. I guarantee that if he didnt take any of his stims and came back saying "the pre sucked but i didnt take any of my baseline stims" everyone would have been saying the same things in regards to his review not meaning anything. Truthfully, he is just a bad test subject for a non-stim pre (no offense to Ricky).
 
Ricky10

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You missed the point with the fish oil example Bob. He clearly says "if someone is testing a joint formula".

If you want to test something you try to keep everything else constant (eg. stim intake, workout plan, peri-workout nutrition) in order to isolate that single variable that we want to look at (eg. this pre workout). If you dont keep all of the other inputs the same you have no idea whether the effect youre seeing is from the addition of X of the subtraction of Y.

In your example, you would have the placebo group continue with their regular supplementation and add an inert pill/mixture/whatever and compare that to the "treatment arm" where the subjects do their best to keep everything else in regards to their regular habits constant and then add in the new variable. You wouldnt have the treatment arm discontinue everything else that they had been doing because that actually leads you to having less of an ability to isolate the single variable and reliably state that the observed effect was from the new variable.

While i do get what you're saying, and you're correct that adding stuff takes away from the product, when given to someone who apparently has a huge baseline stim intake it really doesnt do the pre justice to have him take it without at least close to his level of baseline stims. I guarantee that if he didnt take any of his stims and came back saying "the pre sucked but i didnt take any of my baseline stims" everyone would have been saying the same things in regards to his review not meaning anything. Truthfully, he is just a bad test subject for a non-stim pre (no offense to Ricky).
Very well stated, and no offense taken!

Nonetheless, I was comfortable taking up the offer despite not technically being an ideal test subject for a non stim pre, because I thought the higher stim crowd that is also likely taking interest in the product would find value in my response. Just like how the low or no stim crowd will certainly find value in the pending responses from the next batch of samples that will likely (assumption on my part) go to testers that have a lower or no baseline stim consumption.

Take away message from the higher end stim tester (me), is that it performed VERY well with significantly less stims and product than I routinely consume PWO. I consider that to be notable info for anyone, and it is one of the reasons I am excited to get on this product routinely.

We just happened to get feedback from the higher end stim user first! It was just as surprising to me that I was apparently the ONLY person given the opportunity to offer feedback at the time.😲
 
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While i do get what you're saying, and you're correct that adding stuff takes away from the product,.
Bingo
As a formulator designing a product if you get skewed feedback it doesn’t help putting a product on the market . When you have multiple test subjects not on the same
Page the message you get in return takes away from tweaking the product to the masses.

With how long BLR will take to produce it I rather them nail the launch then go back to the drawing board
 
jswain34

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Bingo
As a formulator designing a product if you get skewed feedback it doesn’t help putting a product on the market . When you have multiple test subjects not on the same
Page the message you get in return takes away from tweaking the product to the masses.

With how long BLR will take to produce it I rather them nail the launch then go back to the drawing board
Okay...totally disregard the more important 95% of my post and respond only to what fits your narrative
 
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Okay...totally disregard the more important 95% of my post and respond only to what fits your narrative
So you are going to put out a non stim and just have a random 10-20 people automatically adjust all Variables to suit them and then throw in a beta sample.

Yeah that’s won’t work in the real world with honest feedback. If you want to get a general consensus on how well the product Is formulated, how effective it is and if anything needs varied put it in a controlled environment for your testing crew and have them take it as is. Record thoughts and adjust as needed.

So if client X needs 600mg caffeine, Y needs 300 and Z needs 0 you are going to get a vast variety of feedback that will skew the final output of what is “tested”. Let alone others who will add extra on top of these things and give you again more “skewed” feedback.

We live in a world where more
Is better so people will keep adding to the fire and take away from the item being reviewed, studied, or beta tested
 

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Okay...totally disregard the more important 95% of my post and respond only to what fits your narrative
Just a heads up this will go nowhere that’s how this always goes.
 
jswain34

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So you are going to put out a non stim and just have a random 10-20 people automatically adjust all Variables to suit them and then throw in a beta sample.

Yeah that’s won’t work in the real world with honest feedback. If you want to get a general consensus on how well the product Is formulated, how effective it is and if anything needs varied put it in a controlled environment for your testing crew and have them take it as is. Record thoughts and adjust as needed.

So if client X needs 600mg caffeine, Y needs 300 and Z needs 0 you are going to get a vast variety of feedback that will skew the final output of what is “tested”. Let alone others who will add extra on top of these things and give you again more “skewed” feedback.

We live in a world where more
Is better so people will keep adding to the fire and take away from the item being reviewed, studied, or beta tested
Just a heads up this will go nowhere that’s how this always goes.
Resolve, funny that you mentioned that. My next post to him was going to address that very thing lol. Bob, no disrespect intended here whatsoever, ive been on this forum long enough to know that having a difference in opinion with you gets nobody anywhere. Going around and around in circles with you accomplishes nothing and there is absolutely nothing we can do about what happened with Ricky's beta testing experience at this point. Lets just move on and see what other people's experiences were like. I do get what you're saying, but ive already made my responses to your points and am not going to beat the dead horse any more than we already have.
 
banjobounce

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Bingo Adding stims will skew the result of what he is actually trying to review.
That is the biggest issue I have with loggers on here. They throw in multiple variables or other supplements and try to give feedback on one item. Just run what you are reviewing solo, update with your progress and exclude any external factors which can change feedback.
Yup.
 
3clipseGT

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Im going to throw in votes for lemonade, grape and cherry limeade.
 
jtmass

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Grape, something coconuty and Cherry Limeade
 
TheVenom

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Is it crossing a line to say "about damn time"? 😀😀
 

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Tigers blood (watermelon/strawberry/coconut).
Strawberry colada
Sour Grape
Black cherry


Would love to see this release with no stims. I would pay more for two products ( a pre w/o stim +an adjunct stim product with nootropics) that way stim can be titrated or use as needed.

Right now I have been using a comprehensive pump focused pre that is stim free +creatine and BA. In addition I stack with Focus XT which after trying this stack works superior to DHMA and high caffiene products.
 
brundel

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I just wanted to clarify a few things.
First there is 0 change the formula is going to change at this point. We have tested it to death and already have the sourced materials enroute. We are just making sure it doesnt taste bad before we launch. My guess is within 10 days or so Ill have multiple samples of 3 different flavors. This is limited because we have 2g peak02 in the mix. We thought about pulling it because it effects taste so much ( and is fn expensive) but it is one of the few things I really seem to notice when I train and most agreed in testing. So itll stay and well work around it. The product is intended to work well and improve performance, not be a tasty beverage.

Second while we did send 2 limited samples out (Missing a major vasodilator) This was really just because I had a few available and wanted to give some guys here a chance to test it out. We have literally run hundreds of (complete) samples through a multitude of tests with around a dozen testers. I know this stuff works and works well so its really moot. You guys will see when you get ahold of a bottle. Ive been taking the full version and it works great acutely but also I seemed to notice endurance improve over a week or so. Maybe placebo maybe peak02 but it was noticeable for sure.

Finally, I did in fact tell Ricky to just take whatever he normally takes because he told me that he regularly takes a ton of stims daily. Unfortunately this sort of defeats the purpose of some of the other ingredients because ~700mg of stims is gonna cause a **** ton of vasoconstriction. Even though caffeine is a mixed vaso(dilator/constrictor) the constrictor part will win out at these doses. Keeping in mind there is already some in the product and another stim.
I said to just take it because NOT taking it would cause more harm than good. For those of you who take 500+mg caffeine daily have you tried not taking it for a few days? Youll be on the couch sleeping all day. The body compensates by upregulating adenosine and youll wind up with a ton of adenosine present. Not taking the caffeine will leave you with an overabundance of adenosine and fierce sleepiness. Not great for pre workout. So.....we got what we got.

Ultimately it wont effect anything either way.
The product will remain the same and we are still aiming for June launch.

I do like the conversation though ;)
 
brundel

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Tigers blood (watermelon/strawberry/coconut).
Strawberry colada
Sour Grape
Black cherry


Would love to see this release with no stims. I would pay more for two products ( a pre w/o stim +an adjunct stim product with nootropics) that way stim can be titrated or use as needed.

Right now I have been using a comprehensive pump focused pre that is stim free +creatine and BA. In addition I stack with Focus XT which after trying this stack works superior to DHMA and high caffiene products.
I seem to find there is a line where benefits from stimulants tend to conflict with other ingredients. There are multiple reasons of course.
1. vasoconstriction ( ESPECIALLY WITH NON CAFFEINE STIMS) because caffeine can be vasodilating at lower doses but I dont know of many other stims that are this way. I HIGHLY doubt DMHA, AMP citrate, BMPEA etc are vasodilating. In fact its almost certain they are not. DMAA is viciously vasoconstrictive. As are most stims.
2. Many stims cause a similar biological response as a ton of stress. Cortisol rises, Noradrenaline rises etc etc and while this can acutely give some benefit to training over time this leads to burnout and you need the stims just to get through the day with a major net loss in training.
So if you take stims, by themselves once a week or twice a week. Fine.
But daily= no.
And with vasodilators and other things that are contradicted= no.

I agree that its best to just keep a pre low stim. Stim junkies can add whatever they want and non stim junkies reap the benefits vs only being able to take half a scoop.
 
Ricky10

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I just wanted to clarify a few things.
First there is 0 change the formula is going to change at this point. We have tested it to death and already have the sourced materials enroute. We are just making sure it doesnt taste bad before we launch. My guess is within 10 days or so Ill have multiple samples of 3 different flavors. This is limited because we have 2g peak02 in the mix. We thought about pulling it because it effects taste so much ( and is fn expensive) but it is one of the few things I really seem to notice when I train and most agreed in testing. So itll stay and well work around it. The product is intended to work well and improve performance, not be a tasty beverage.

Second while we did send 2 limited samples out (Missing a major vasodilator) This was really just because I had a few available and wanted to give some guys here a chance to test it out. We have literally run hundreds of (complete) samples through a multitude of tests with around a dozen testers. I know this stuff works and works well so its really moot. You guys will see when you get ahold of a bottle. Ive been taking the full version and it works great acutely but also I seemed to notice endurance improve over a week or so. Maybe placebo maybe peak02 but it was noticeable for sure.

Finally, I did in fact tell Ricky to just take whatever he normally takes because he told me that he regularly takes a ton of stims daily. Unfortunately this sort of defeats the purpose of some of the other ingredients because ~700mg of stims is gonna cause a **** ton of vasoconstriction. Even though caffeine is a mixed vaso(dilator/constrictor) the constrictor part will win out at these doses. Keeping in mind there is already some in the product and another stim.
I said to just take it because NOT taking it would cause more harm than good. For those of you who take 500+mg caffeine daily have you tried not taking it for a few days? Youll be on the couch sleeping all day. The body compensates by upregulating adenosine and youll wind up with a ton of adenosine present. Not taking the caffeine will leave you with an overabundance of adenosine and fierce sleepiness. Not great for pre workout. So.....we got what we got.

Ultimately it wont effect anything either way.
The product will remain the same and we are still aiming for June launch.

I do like the conversation though ;)
Yes, nobody can say it didn’t elicit some conversation!

I for one was never under the impression that the product was still at a point where it was potentially being tweaked based on user feedback from myself, or any of the upcoming sample reviews. That time and testing was clearly already invested in my eyes from the start.

As far as the taste, I am surprised to hear that it is causing any major issues. I used my raw sample with a serving of a strawberry/banana BCAA product topped off with a bit of lemonade crystal light, and all I tasted was artificial fruit. Maybe you can just toss some crystal light in all these tubs and put the first round up for sale tomorrow!

My chronic stim consumption would be a story in itself, but on days I don’t have to work or have the opportunity to go to the gym, my stim consumption is usually a very reasonable 200-300mgs caffeine content just in the morning (usually). My job is a mental and physical marathon of ridiculousness that should require that my employer provide me with a portable IV drip of fluids and electrolytes. This hasn’t happened yet, so my stims have certainly become something I rely on too much. I often experiment with new products that contain smoother stims and nootropic blends, which have also been helpful alternatives. My first goal is to get myself further away from regular use of fat burner type stimulant products.

Seems to me that your performance/vasodilation blend holds up very well to some additional kick. I remain confident that PWO consumers with varying stim preferences will be quite pleased with your product 😁
 
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TheVenom

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Stawberry Melonaide sounds great if ya wanna get freaky
 
TheVenom

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And jeez I'd do anything for white cherry with SensaCool, like RCSS used to use in their green apple.
 
mechka_grizli

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If you need stims to have a good workout, you should check your diet and sleep first. Nobody needs to have a massive stim bomb to pick up a weight or have a good workout. If you cant adjust your nutrition to put your body in an optimal state for a workout then you should go back to square one before investing in pre-workouts. That is the biggest issue with most on these forums they try to supplement a bad diet (not saying Ricky does, but it is a common theme).
This statement alone I draw issue with. I wake up at 3 AM, start work at 4:30, work 10 - 12 hrs of a physically demanding job, pick my son up from daycare, help him with homework, and then im able to make it to the gym between 530 and 6. Do I NEED caffeine to lift the weights? No......Can I have a productive workout without caffeine? Yes..... But after working long @$$ hours in this GA heat, are my workouts BETTER with caffeine somewhere along the way? Yes they are! You can not blame it on diet and sleep when there are other factors included. Just cause YOU don't need or require stims doesn't mean someone else doesnt. This isnt a one size fits all scenario and to insinuate someone needs to "go back to square one" just because they have better workouts with caffeine comes off entirely the wrong way
 
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brundel

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I also dont want to say that stimulants cant help. They can and we do include some. Just not super high doses.
Also like stated above some people just need the stims to be able to drag ass into the gym because their life's workload is so high.
What I am saying is OPTIMALLY, low stims is ideal for performance when in a combination with things like vasodilators. Many guys think that because you "Feel" the stimulant the pre workout product must work well. Not so.
It just means the stimulants work well.
I also think that many people have lost sight of what these supplements are for and are just addicted to the stims.

Recently I went to deliver a sample of the pre to someone I know. I met him at his work, explained the formula and that we are using a low stim model so as to get the most out of the other ingredients. I turned to talk to someone else at the office and when I went back to my friend he had already mixed it up and was halfway through drinking it.
At work.
0 intention to go to the gym. He was like "cant wait for this to kick in!!"
First hes a moron or just didnt hear a word I said but we can leave that alone.
WHats interesting is that more and more people are just using pre workout supplements specifically for the stimulant boost. Not bad for supp sales but not the smartest choice of mid day pick me ups.
Pre=30-45$ Many of these have less than 30 doses.
Bag of caffeine that will last you months 20$
Plus your wasting (but still paying for) all the other performance enhancing stuff.

Better to utilize the performance enhancing stuff in the gym and drink some coffee or caffeine. Or a mixed stim product.
 
TheVenom

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I also dont want to say that stimulants cant help. They can and we do include some. Just not super high doses.
Also like stated above some people just need the stims to be able to drag ass into the gym because their life's workload is so high.
What I am saying is OPTIMALLY, low stims is ideal for performance when in a combination with things like vasodilators. Many guys think that because you "Feel" the stimulant the pre workout product must work well. Not so.
It just means the stimulants work well.
I also think that many people have lost sight of what these supplements are for and are just addicted to the stims.

Recently I went to deliver a sample of the pre to someone I know. I met him at his work, explained the formula and that we are using a low stim model so as to get the most out of the other ingredients. I turned to talk to someone else at the office and when I went back to my friend he had already mixed it up and was halfway through drinking it.
At work.
0 intention to go to the gym. He was like "cant wait for this to kick in!!"
First hes a moron or just didnt hear a word I said but we can leave that alone.
WHats interesting is that more and more people are just using pre workout supplements specifically for the stimulant boost. Not bad for supp sales but not the smartest choice of mid day pick me ups.
Pre=30-45$ Many of these have less than 30 doses.
Bag of caffeine that will last you months 20$
Plus your wasting (but still paying for) all the other performance enhancing stuff.

Better to utilize the performance enhancing stuff in the gym and drink some coffee or caffeine. Or a mixed stim product.

I used to just be a stim junkie, myself, and wouldnt put anyone down for it, but then I started asking myself...

What do i want out of a pre? A better workout? Or am I just trying to get high?
 

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I just wanted to clarify a few things.
First there is 0 change the formula is going to change at this point. We have tested it to death and already have the sourced materials enroute. We are just making sure it doesnt taste bad before we launch. My guess is within 10 days or so Ill have multiple samples of 3 different flavors. This is limited because we have 2g peak02 in the mix. We thought about pulling it because it effects taste so much ( and is fn expensive) but it is one of the few things I really seem to notice when I train and most agreed in testing. So itll stay and well work around it. The product is intended to work well and improve performance, not be a tasty beverage.

Second while we did send 2 limited samples out (Missing a major vasodilator) This was really just because I had a few available and wanted to give some guys here a chance to test it out. We have literally run hundreds of (complete) samples through a multitude of tests with around a dozen testers. I know this stuff works and works well so its really moot. You guys will see when you get ahold of a bottle. Ive been taking the full version and it works great acutely but also I seemed to notice endurance improve over a week or so. Maybe placebo maybe peak02 but it was noticeable for sure.

Finally, I did in fact tell Ricky to just take whatever he normally takes because he told me that he regularly takes a ton of stims daily. Unfortunately this sort of defeats the purpose of some of the other ingredients because ~700mg of stims is gonna cause a **** ton of vasoconstriction. Even though caffeine is a mixed vaso(dilator/constrictor) the constrictor part will win out at these doses. Keeping in mind there is already some in the product and another stim.
I said to just take it because NOT taking it would cause more harm than good. For those of you who take 500+mg caffeine daily have you tried not taking it for a few days? Youll be on the couch sleeping all day. The body compensates by upregulating adenosine and youll wind up with a ton of adenosine present. Not taking the caffeine will leave you with an overabundance of adenosine and fierce sleepiness. Not great for pre workout. So.....we got what we got.

Ultimately it wont effect anything either way.
The product will remain the same and we are still aiming for June launch.

I do like the conversation though ;)
2g PeakO2 is a solid dose and should produce some benefit relatively quick (not necessarily acute but I also notice it within a week to start).

Think it’s a great addition and should be able to still mask its flavor I find it’s more a texture thing and it is a bit “nutty”.
 
The Solution

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I also dont want to say that stimulants cant help. They can and we do include some. Just not super high doses.
Also like stated above some people just need the stims to be able to drag ass into the gym because their life's workload is so high.
What I am saying is OPTIMALLY, low stims is ideal for performance when in a combination with things like vasodilators. Many guys think that because you "Feel" the stimulant the pre workout product must work well. Not so.
It just means the stimulants work well.
I also think that many people have lost sight of what these supplements are for and are just addicted to the stims.

Recently I went to deliver a sample of the pre to someone I know. I met him at his work, explained the formula and that we are using a low stim model so as to get the most out of the other ingredients. I turned to talk to someone else at the office and when I went back to my friend he had already mixed it up and was halfway through drinking it.
At work.
0 intention to go to the gym. He was like "cant wait for this to kick in!!"
First hes a moron or just didnt hear a word I said but we can leave that alone.
WHats interesting is that more and more people are just using pre workout supplements specifically for the stimulant boost. Not bad for supp sales but not the smartest choice of mid day pick me ups.
Pre=30-45$ Many of these have less than 30 doses.
Bag of caffeine that will last you months 20$
Plus your wasting (but still paying for) all the other performance enhancing stuff.

Better to utilize the performance enhancing stuff in the gym and drink some coffee or caffeine. Or a mixed stim product.
People thrive off the stimulant kick.
The more you use it, the more it will build up, therefore leading to need more and more (accumulated effect). That is why you see the industry pushing 300-400mg a serving now compared to around 200mg in the past on top of adding other stimulants.

We live in a day and age where people correlate more = better. Which is not always the case as you explain for "optimal performance".

I wish more companies would take the approach of a lower stim and focus on more performance, endurance, and recovery enhancing properties. Why do we buy pre-workouts? To optimize and improve our performance in the gym. Your last statement is gold.
 
Studhorse

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I just wanted to clarify a few things.
First there is 0 change the formula is going to change at this point. We have tested it to death and already have the sourced materials enroute. We are just making sure it doesnt taste bad before we launch. My guess is within 10 days or so Ill have multiple samples of 3 different flavors. This is limited because we have 2g peak02 in the mix. We thought about pulling it because it effects taste so much ( and is fn expensive) but it is one of the few things I really seem to notice when I train and most agreed in testing. So itll stay and well work around it. The product is intended to work well and improve performance, not be a tasty beverage.

Second while we did send 2 limited samples out (Missing a major vasodilator) This was really just because I had a few available and wanted to give some guys here a chance to test it out. We have literally run hundreds of (complete) samples through a multitude of tests with around a dozen testers. I know this stuff works and works well so its really moot. You guys will see when you get ahold of a bottle. Ive been taking the full version and it works great acutely but also I seemed to notice endurance improve over a week or so. Maybe placebo maybe peak02 but it was noticeable for sure.

Finally, I did in fact tell Ricky to just take whatever he normally takes because he told me that he regularly takes a ton of stims daily. Unfortunately this sort of defeats the purpose of some of the other ingredients because ~700mg of stims is gonna cause a **** ton of vasoconstriction. Even though caffeine is a mixed vaso(dilator/constrictor) the constrictor part will win out at these doses. Keeping in mind there is already some in the product and another stim.
I said to just take it because NOT taking it would cause more harm than good. For those of you who take 500+mg caffeine daily have you tried not taking it for a few days? Youll be on the couch sleeping all day. The body compensates by upregulating adenosine and youll wind up with a ton of adenosine present. Not taking the caffeine will leave you with an overabundance of adenosine and fierce sleepiness. Not great for pre workout. So.....we got what we got.

Ultimately it wont effect anything either way.
The product will remain the same and we are still aiming for June launch.

I do like the conversation though ;)
Glad you are sticking with adding peak02!
 
3clipseGT

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I love Peak02 as well so I am glad that’s being included.

@brundel - Is the Quercetin-Niacin co-crystal still a go? I remember reading that in another thread.
 
jswain34

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Caffeine is one of the most effective acute ergogens known to man, at a pretty hefty dose (3-5mg/kg most studies but up to 8mg/kg or 800mg caffeine in others). So to sit here and act like stims dont improve performance is simply, undeniably false. Now, do we need exotic stims IN ADDITION to a hefty caffeine dose? No, probably not - i know I sure as shît dont. Thats where we likely get into the realm of "too much of a good thing".

But i love the idea of a stim free formula geared towards performance - anyone can buy caffeine tabs at a pharmacy for <10$ and dose it however they like if they feel it to benefit them.
 
Ziyo

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I’m relatively new here but I was just wondering..
what is the deal with Reishi( peak02) and dht?
 

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