VECTOR pre release leaks and info

[jmero2]

This is why I'm very selective with my supplementation. I know for sure FD2 works for me as well as glycoshield, I can see it in my blood glucose numbers which I track every day since I'm diabetic. I'm 47 years old, I've seen products come and go over the years, the ones that have an impact are few and far between. I'm not saying that Vector does not work, I'm saying it will take a few more months of people using it before I try it. BLR does put out some good products (I miss formeron) and I took some viron which gave me a nice libido boost.

 

[Ricky10]

Yes, 12. Day on in.
It may be possible actually. Last time I ran bloodwork was in January

Still nothing to report? No increase in appetite or feeling less full shortly after meals at least?

 

[Danes]

People also expect to.much from natural anabolics and supps in.general.
Its like "bah, I just gained 4l bs after 2 months.its crap".
If fat% is same and even lower, it is actually amazing results.

 

[Danes]

Still nothing to report? No increase in appetite or feeling less full shortly after meals at least?

Honestly, no increased appetite or anything.
The only thing I have experienced is:
Last 3 days I have some.lower stomach issues and loose stool. But I am not saying its due to Vector

 

[Ricky10]

People also expect to.much from natural anabolics and supps in.general.
Its like "bah, I just gained 4l bs after 2 months.its crap".
If fat% is same and even lower, it is actually amazing results.

Agreed.

On the other side of the coin...I find that many people do not give natty anabolics enough respect....without even trying them.
There have been some winners in the past (and epic fails), but everyone tends to react differently to natural extracts despite dietary factors.

 

[Ricky10]

Honestly, no increased appetite or anything.
The only thing I have experienced is:
Last 3 days I have some.lower stomach issues and loose stool. But I am not saying its due to Vector

I can relate to looser stools while on Vector..

Coincidently, I have had real bad GI distress since stopping Vector (not related). Just having random roadblocks lately...so I am holding off.

First the elbow (feels nice now) and for the past week, my lower back has flared up because I had been hitting legs harder than usual...then the runs kicked in....bad!

I just can't win!

 

[Danes]

Agreed.

On the other side of the coin...I find that many people do not give natty anabolics enough respect....without even trying them.
There have been some winners in the past (and epic fails), but everyone tends to react differently to natural extracts despite dietary factors.

Yes you are right.
We also need to understand people who like to run solid doses of AAS will be disappiinted of natural anabolics because the expectation wilø be to high.
Whats also good thing with Natural anabolics, they also provide many health benefits

 

[unitas27]

Yes you are right.
We also need to understand people who like to run solid doses of AAS will be disappiinted of natural anabolics because the expectation wilø be to high.
Whats also good thing with Natural anabolics, they also provide many health benefits

That's how I look at it, even if a natural anabolic doesn't live up to it's claims the medical research studies usually conclude positive general health benefits from the herbal components. I.e. improved cholesterol markers, glucose disposal, antioxidant benefits, improved blood pressure etc....

 

[mechka_grizli]

2nd week complete for me

-noticable mood improvement
-no hunger increases
-terrible smelling gas/loose stools
-noticeable strength increases
-massive stamina increase

 

[bigsmall]

5 weeks complete for me (50 year old male with over 30 years lifting and supplement experience)
- hunger was instatiable and is now more manageable
- no gas
- larger strength increase
- Alpha feeling
- And got to watch the hypo! Miss a meal and it wrecks my day lol...
(I am dosing one cap most of the time to avoid hypo cause I am not bulking)
- 4 lb increase (and I am really really trying not to gain weight / I am an easy gainer).
- Definitely lean mass gain - I look and feel leaner.
- Pump is crazy (I have stopped taking any pump products pre-workout cause its literally too much pump)
- Feeling better mentally overall.
- DOMS city though, but that's cause I am killing it. Able to really contract muscles hard (like nothing natural I have ever used)
- Better than 25mg Osta and in line with Andros / mild AAS effects (but with nothing but positive side effects (ie. Feeling of well being).
- Got 3 cans to go and will order more.
- Most outstanding and ground breaking product ever as far as I am concerned.
-Prior to Vector, I was running Folidrone for the better part of two years as well as TD Laxo. Still running Folidrone (Laxo is done).

 

[brundel]

5 weeks complete for me (50 year old male with over 30 years lifting and supplement experience)
- hunger was instatiable and is now more manageable
- no gas
- larger strength increase
- Alpha feeling
- And got to watch the hypo! Miss a meal and it wrecks my day lol...
(I am dosing one cap most of the time to avoid hypo cause I am not bulking)
- 4 lb increase (and I am really really trying not to gain weight / I am an easy gainer).
- Definitely lean mass gain - I look and feel leaner.
- Pump is crazy (I have stopped taking any pump products pre-workout cause its literally too much pump)
- Feeling better mentally overall.
- DOMS city though, but that's cause I am killing it. Able to really contract muscles hard (like nothing natural I have ever used)
- Better than 25mg Osta and in line with Andros / mild AAS effects (but with nothing but positive side effects (ie. Feeling of well being).
- Got 3 cans to go and will order more.
- Most outstanding and ground breaking product ever as far as I am concerned.

So this is what a natural anabolic should do.
Strength
Some mass increase
Leaner
Performance enhancement= Pump, better contractions, endurance etc.
And look at it like this.....if it compares or surpasses SARMs and mild prohormones PLUS its non suppressive I think this is a huge win.
There will always be people who respond better or worse than others. This is the same for all drugs, supplements etc.

 

[justhere4comm]

5 weeks complete for me (50 year old male with over 30 years lifting and supplement experience)
- hunger was instatiable and is now more manageable
- no gas
- larger strength increase
- Alpha feeling
- And got to watch the hypo! Miss a meal and it wrecks my day lol...
(I am dosing one cap most of the time to avoid hypo cause I am not bulking)
- 4 lb increase (and I am really really trying not to gain weight / I am an easy gainer).
- Definitely lean mass gain - I look and feel leaner.
- Pump is crazy (I have stopped taking any pump products pre-workout cause its literally too much pump)
- Feeling better mentally overall.
- DOMS city though, but that's cause I am killing it. Able to really contract muscles hard (like nothing natural I have ever used)
- Better than 25mg Osta and in line with Andros / mild AAS effects (but with nothing but positive side effects (ie. Feeling of well being).
- Got 3 cans to go and will order more.
- Most outstanding and ground breaking product ever as far as I am concerned.
-Prior to Vector, I was running Folidrone for the better part of two years as well as TD Laxo. Still running Folidrone (Laxo is done).

Boooooooyahhhhh!!!

 

[dcoen21]

I’m a little over six weeks on it started March 8 weighed 188 on March 11th weighed myself this past Friday the 20th now weigh 200lbs. Still wear the same 30 inch waist pants I notice them tight on Monday’s which is my ab and yoga day! I recently started clear muscle this Thursday because I think my body will start to slow the gains down so I will add more sets and reps to my routine. Strength is up and deeper sleep is nice as well always have had a high libido so can’t attest to any changes in that.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

12lbs in 6 weeks?!! while barely adding fat, sounds too good to be true. yet, you are one of many claiming similar results!!
congrats on your gains~

 

[justhere4comm]

I’m a little over six weeks on it started March 8 weighed 188 on March 11th weighed myself this past Friday the 20th now weigh 200lbs. Still wear the same 30 inch waist pants I notice them tight on Monday’s which is my ab and yoga day! I recently started clear muscle this Thursday because I think my body will start to slow the gains down so I will add more sets and reps to my routine. Strength is up and deeper sleep is nice as well always have had a high libido so can’t attest to any changes in that.

That's great! Good on ya!
I'm trying to take my weight down, but at least the belt is getting looser around the waste, so I'm losing fat and retaining muscle. My libido is on he upward swing of the curve.

 

[dcoen21]

There’s just no way these people have the same waist line. I don’t get the need to embellish. I’m up about 3-4 pounds since starting Vector and on my 6th week. I know my body and how to clean bulk. If I was 6+ lbs heavier, my waistline would be seeing it. I just can’t imagine TWELVE lbs. Are you sliding the pants and belt buckle under some new fat and they just feel the same as a result? I would love for these people to take actual body fat measurements or at the very least use calipers bc I roll my eyes every time I read a post like this.

I am sorry u aren’t as gifted as I am sucks to suck. This is why i love the internet so many experts.

 

[Oconns28]

It looks like next will be the pre workout supplement.
We hit some snags with anabolic 2. 1 of the ingredients doesnt seem to work well in the real world so I canned it and the other caused unwanted side effects at viable doses. So while I will continue forward other projects will come to the forefront.
The pre has been in development for years. Its time for it to come into the light.
Will be featuring an anabolic vasodilator, A mild opiate like stimulant and a number of VERY interesting ingredients.

I’d be happy to test it out!!!

 

[christ83189]

A mild opiate like stimulant? Why do i keep hearing about stuff like this? As an opiate addict i just dont understand it. Back in the day i wouldve been all about it but nowadays i gotta stear clear

 

[rowz4broz]

A mild opiate like stimulant? Why do i keep hearing about stuff like this? As an opiate addict i just dont understand it. Back in the day i wouldve been all about it but nowadays i gotta stear clear

While it may upset some it does excite others!

 

[rowz4broz]

I’d be happy to test it out!!!

Times 1 million

 

[christ83189]

While it may upset some it does excite others!

It doesnt really upset me. Just marketing like that pulled me back into addiction and cost me a few more years of my life

 

[rowz4broz]

It doesnt really upset me. Just marketing like that pulled me back into addiction and cost me a few more years of my life

Ooooooof..... You know your body brotha steer clear of what doesn’t mix with it

 

[justhere4comm]

A mild opiate like stimulant? Why do i keep hearing about stuff like this? As an opiate addict i just dont understand it. Back in the day i wouldve been all about it but nowadays i gotta stear clear

Respect for your issue with opiates, but let's wait and see the profile and the specific ingredient. If you have to steer clear, you just do. I've got an addictive personality, hence those cigarettes I used to smoke, but got rid of, thankfully. Other things don't seem to affect me as much. I don't mean to compare or reduce your issue, but let's wait and see what the final product is going to look like.

Additionally, I'm a little CDO.

 

[christ83189]

Respect for your issue with opiates, but let's wait and see the profile and the specific ingredient. If you have to steer clear, you just do. I've got an addictive personality, hence those cigarettes I used to smoke, but got rid of, thankfully. Other things don't seem to affect me as much. I don't mean to compare or reduce your issue, but let's wait and see what the final product is going to look like.

Additionally, I'm a little CDO.

Whats cdo? Lol and im not bashing i know blr is legit and putting out quality products. This is just the 3rd time in a few days ive heard about stuff like this and just had to say something. Whatever it is im probably just gonna stay away from it. Everyone else can enjoy it lol i wish i could but anything "opiate-like" is a no-go for me

 

[justhere4comm]

Whats cdo? Lol and im not bashing i know blr is legit and putting out quality products. This is just the 3rd time in a few days ive heard about stuff like this and just had to say something. Whatever it is im probably just gonna stay away from it. Everyone else can enjoy it lol i wish i could but anything "opiate-like" is a no-go for me

Oh, It's OCD but in the right order as nature intended. CDO.
I see what you're saying.

 

[bigsmall]

A mild opiate like stimulant? Why do i keep hearing about stuff like this? As an opiate addict i just dont understand it. Back in the day i wouldve been all about it but nowadays i gotta stear clear

Yep - me too. I was looking forward to this, but now I am leary. Is it really necessary to include this ingredient and why?

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

opiates represent a very large spectrum of metabolites.. just because the ingredient might look like and opiate on paper (the chemical structure), it doesn't mean a thing. not all opiates illicit pain killing, euphoria, or harbor addictive qualities. its a lot like cannibinoids... not all of them are in your body to facilitate you getting high. I recommend you have a look into both to get a better understanding on both these systems in the body and how they work.. its truly fascinating!

 

[christ83189]

opiates represent a very large spectrum of metabolites.. just because the ingredient might look like and opiate on paper (the chemical structure), it doesn't mean a thing. not all opiates illicit pain killing, euphoria, or harbor addictive qualities. its a lot like cannibinoids... not all of them are in your body to facilitate you getting high. I recommend you have a look into both to get a better understanding on both these systems in the body and how they work.. its truly fascinating!

Im just wary of anything like this because the things they were saying about kratom. Non-addictive opiate substitute, no withdrawals, healthy for you blah blah blah. Had the worst withdrawals ive ever had from kratom. Non-addictive my ass. Anyways ill be interested to see about this product and the ingredient profile. Highly doubt ill be buying it but hope everyone that does enjoys it. Sorry if i derailed the thread lol carry on

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

Im just wary of anything like this because the things they were saying about kratom. Non-addictive opiate substitute, no withdrawals, healthy for you blah blah blah. Had the worst withdrawals ive ever had from kratom. Non-addictive my ass. Anyways ill be interested to see about this product and the ingredient profile. Highly doubt ill be buying it but hope everyone that does enjoys it. Sorry if i derailed the thread lol carry on

no worries bud! the thread is safe!

 

[kisaj]

I’m a little over six weeks on it started March 8 weighed 188 on March 11th weighed myself this past Friday the 20th now weigh 200lbs. Still wear the same 30 inch waist pants I notice them tight on Monday’s which is my ab and yoga day! I recently started clear muscle this Thursday because I think my body will start to slow the gains down so I will add more sets and reps to my routine. Strength is up and deeper sleep is nice as well always have had a high libido so can’t attest to any changes in that.

Seriously?? That is what I gain during an 8 week blast of 300mg test cyp.

 

[kisaj]

Yep - me too. I was looking forward to this, but now I am leary. Is it really necessary to include this ingredient and why?

No one knows if kratom will be in it, but it is the only stimulating opioid I can think of. Personally, I have yet to find a better PWO than a gram of white Maeng Da.

 

[jameschoi]

No one knows if kratom will be in it, but it is the only stimulating opioid I can think of. Personally, I have yet to find a better PWO than a gram of white Maeng Da.

Not to hijack, what does the white maeng da do to you in the gym.

 

[kisaj]

Probably should move this to PM as this isn't my thread and I don't want to steer it off course.

 

[justhere4comm]

Yep - me too. I was looking forward to this, but now I am leary. Is it really necessary to include this ingredient and why?

A kind word
brundel has yet to put out any product that was not able to be taken by anyone with an addictive nature to it, aside from the obvious results.

opiates represent a very large spectrum of metabolites.. just because the ingredient might look like and opiate on paper (the chemical structure), it doesn't mean a thing. not all opiates illicit pain killing, euphoria, or harbor addictive qualities. its a lot like cannibinoids... not all of them are in your body to facilitate you getting high. I recommend you have a look into both to get a better understanding on both these systems in the body and how they work.. its truly fascinating!

Well stated broblrski! It will be groundbreaking; novel, and worth not only waiting for but I'm getting rid of all my pre workouts.

Im just wary of anything like this because the things they were saying about kratom. Non-addictive opiate substitute, no withdrawals, healthy for you blah blah blah. Had the worst withdrawals ive ever had from kratom. Non-addictive my ass. Anyways ill be interested to see about this product and the ingredient profile. Highly doubt ill be buying it but hope everyone that does enjoys it. Sorry if i derailed the thread lol carry on

It's true! You nailed that because it's so common we are desensitized when something comes out that may fill that bill as sold. I can assure you however, this is going to be the one that makes the statement absolutely true. The profile should be interesting for sure. Let's wait and see.

no worries bud! the thread is safe!

Safe, for sure!

Seriously?? That is what I gain during an 8 week blast of 300mg test cyp.

Pretty amazing, no?

No one knows if kratom will be in it, but it is the only stimulating opioid I can think of. Personally, I have yet to find a better PWO than a gram of white Maeng Da.

It won't be kratom, and it's really not for everyone. I've got a bag of it sitting in my drawer that I've never tried, and probably won't.

It was part of a trade a while back that was tossed in as an extra. I don't even remember the strain. The container broke and I had to put it in a baggie, so it now looks like dried ground pulped spinach. Smells interesting.

\\

 

[kisaj]

It won't be kratom, and it's really not for everyone. I've got a bag of it sitting in my drawer that I've never tried, and probably won't.
It was part of a trade a while back that was tossed in as an extra. I don't even remember the strain. It's green... j/k.

\\

Thanks for clarifying that as it would be a natural assumption for many I believe.

 

[dcoen21]

Seriously?? That is what I gain during an 8 week blast of 300mg test cyp.

Yea It’s working nice for me I’m just giving my review of what I am experiencing. Before my sleep schedule was pretty bad I couldn’t get to sleep or stay asleep now i am sleeping a lot better, my mood is greatly improved as well.

 

[brundel]

I’m a little over six weeks on it started March 8 weighed 188 on March 11th weighed myself this past Friday the 20th now weigh 200lbs. Still wear the same 30 inch waist pants I notice them tight on Monday’s which is my ab and yoga day! I recently started clear muscle this Thursday because I think my body will start to slow the gains down so I will add more sets and reps to my routine. Strength is up and deeper sleep is nice as well always have had a high libido so can’t attest to any changes in that.

This one is awesome!
12lbs is legit man.

Look.....how many "natural anabolic" supplements or non steroid supplements are available that can do this?
Nice 6 weeks brother.

 

[brundel]

A mild opiate like stimulant? Why do i keep hearing about stuff like this? As an opiate addict i just dont understand it. Back in the day i wouldve been all about it but nowadays i gotta stear clear

I understand how you feel. Trust me on this. I get it as I have personally been down this road.
However, most people dont lose control when they see a post regarding opiates. This isnt meant to insult or berate you in any way. It just is what it is.
For most a new, mildly euphoric stimulant that also has some opiate activity is HIGHLY interesting and for a non addict there is little or no risk for the compound in question.
Im going to make a suggestion bro. Ill preface this by saying I lecture at rehabs on a pretty regular basis about health, nutrition, hedonic threshold etc etc. So Im not coming from a place of judgement or ignorance but from experience.
If hearing this causes you to feel the need to relapse there is still something working against you and you should seek assistance.
Meaning talk to a well educated therapist and have them help you pull out whatever **** is making you want to turn to substance to cope and develop new coping mechanisms. It sucks to go through life having things trigger you man. The sooner you deal with it the better.
Again, not judging or meaning negativity in any way. Just dont like to see people suffering when there are options.

 

[brundel]

Seriously?? That is what I gain during an 8 week blast of 300mg test cyp.

Lol I wish 8 weeks at 300mg would give me 12 lbs
What is your cruise dose? 150?
Where does 300 put you on a lab? Over norm range?
Everyone is different as you know. Some guys run 300mg and are still well within normal range.

I would probably doubt it as well but we have seen similar results from dozens of guys. Many of our initial test subjects gained 7-12lbs in 4 weeks.
These were guys not knowing what they were taking or what it was supposed to do. Just taking and monitoring everything.
Studhorse I think gained 10lbs in 21 days with no changes in food intake or anything as he didnt know was in the caps.

Have you taken a look at the list of chemical constituents? Its like 20 of the best bodybuilding supplements all in one place.
Epicatechin
ursolic acid
corosolic acid
chlorogenic
oleanolic
Catalpol
eetc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Its the combination of ingredients that works the magic. We say Vector but there is ALOT within.

 

[Studhorse]

This one is awesome!
12lbs is legit man.

Look.....how many "natural anabolic" supplements or non steroid supplements are available that can do this?
Nice 6 weeks brother.

dcoen21 Nice job! 12lbs is for real. I'm glad someone else packed on 12 lbs.and kept the waist line the same! Most thought I was making it up! lol

 

[kisaj]

Lol I wish 8 weeks at 300mg would give me 12 lbs
What is your cruise dose? 150?
Where does 300 put you on a lab? Over norm range?
Everyone is different as you know. Some guys run 300mg and are still well within normal range.

The labs don't indicate, but it is well outside of physiological range as I inject 150mg 2x weekly and the labs I've taken in the past were on day of injection to find my blast trough and it consistently comes back >1500 (328-1320 ref). Normal cruise is 120 weekly.

 

[christ83189]

I understand how you feel. Trust me on this. I get it as I have personally been down this road.
However, most people dont lose control when they see a post regarding opiates. This isnt meant to insult or berate you in any way. It just is what it is.
For most a new, mildly euphoric stimulant that also has some opiate activity is HIGHLY interesting and for a non addict there is little or no risk for the compound in question.
Im going to make a suggestion bro. Ill preface this by saying I lecture at rehabs on a pretty regular basis about health, nutrition, hedonic threshold etc etc. So Im not coming from a place of judgement or ignorance but from experience.
If hearing this causes you to feel the need to relapse there is still something working against you and you should seek assistance.
Meaning talk to a well educated therapist and have them help you pull out whatever **** is making you want to turn to substance to cope and develop new coping mechanisms. It sucks to go through life having things trigger you man. The sooner you deal with it the better.
Again, not judging or meaning negativity in any way. Just dont like to see people suffering when there are options.

I have been seeking help for years bro. Ive been dealing with it. Still don't understand why i get set off or why i have such a hard time with it but im sober and have been for a while. So dont worry about me. Ive got plenty of wise people giving me advice and talking with me on a regular basis and have committed myself to healthy living and Being a father and husband. So way ahead of you bro. I didnt lose control i was just speaking my mind cause i hate addiction. You cant fault me for that

 

[bigsmall]

I understand how you feel. Trust me on this. I get it as I have personally been down this road.
However, most people dont lose control when they see a post regarding opiates. This isnt meant to insult or berate you in any way. It just is what it is.
For most a new, mildly euphoric stimulant that also has some opiate activity is HIGHLY interesting and for a non addict there is little or no risk for the compound in question.
Im going to make a suggestion bro. Ill preface this by saying I lecture at rehabs on a pretty regular basis about health, nutrition, hedonic threshold etc etc. So Im not coming from a place of judgement or ignorance but from experience.
If hearing this causes you to feel the need to relapse there is still something working against you and you should seek assistance.
Meaning talk to a well educated therapist and have them help you pull out whatever **** is making you want to turn to substance to cope and develop new coping mechanisms. It sucks to go through life having things trigger you man. The sooner you deal with it the better.
Again, not judging or meaning negativity in any way. Just dont like to see people suffering when there are options.

Way to harsh a response for what the guy said.

 

[kisaj]

Way to harsh a response for what the guy said.

Agreed. It was a simple question/observation. I don't get where the comment about loss of control is coming from.

Edit- I missed follow up posts indicating that marketing brought him back into addiction. My fault and I would retract my comment, but it's already quoted so I'll leave it here.

 

[justhere4comm]

Way to harsh a response for what the guy said.

Harsh? Well, I'd offer an alternative viewpoint because I'm familiar with Brundel. It comes from his heart. He's got a very big one. Heart. // Sh1t, that came out wrong.... so did that.. Seriously though.

:afro:

Agreed. It was a simple question/observation. I don't get where the comment about loss of control is coming from.

Cone on guys. It comes from a good place.

 

[mechka_grizli]

Agreed. It was a simple question/observation. I don't get where the comment about loss of control is coming from.

Way to harsh a response for what the guy said.

While it was a strong response, if you look at what the guy said, he literally said marketing like that pulled him back into addiction in regards to Kratom. If all it takes is marketing to pull someone back into addictive behavior then I think Brundel's response is warranted

Also the both of you have been around long enough (I think) that Brundel has disclosed some of his own personal struggles. He isnt trying to put the guy down, only help

 

[kisaj]

While it was a strong response, if you look at what the guy said, he literally said marketing like that pulled him back into addiction in regards to Kratom. If all it takes is marketing to pull someone back into addictive behavior then I think Brundel's response is warranted

Also the both of you have been around long enough (I think) that Brundel has disclosed some of his own personal struggles. He isnt trying to put the guy down, only help

Yes, you are correct and I was wrong about Brundel's response. I missed the post that followed up where christ83189 mentioned that marketing brought him back into addiction. I've edited my comment and I feel that Brundel's comment was not harsh based on this.

 

[christ83189]

While it was a strong response, if you look at what the guy said, he literally said marketing like that pulled him back into addiction in regards to Kratom. If all it takes is marketing to pull someone back into addictive behavior then I think Brundel's response is warranted

Also the both of you have been around long enough (I think) that Brundel has disclosed some of his own personal struggles. He isnt trying to put the guy down, only help

I was talking about the mild opiate like thing. Thats what they said about kratom mild, non-addictive, opiate like that made me try it cause nothing i found at that time said anything about its addictive properties. I was looking for a little energy, mood boost at the time and it was the non-addictive part that drew me in. It being opiate like isnt what made me lose control. It was being told its non addictive mhich got me to try it and after trying thats when the control was lost.

 

[christ83189]

Its cool that some people like it and can do it moderately and enjoy it. Awesome. All im saying is that stuff like this is popping up alot and this sh1t ruins peoples lives. Obviously i know nothing about what is in brundels pwo and cant say it about that. Im talking about opiates and opiate like substances popping up and some of the ones fully legal and readily available to anyone that wants em.

 

[horizons]

So claims to have 0 effects on hormones or estrogen

Then someone gets 100% increase of test and heaps of people getting hormone effects

This is why I don’t really trust supplements anymore