Tomatidine (potent natural anabolic?)
- Thread starter Danes
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JakeAntaeus
New member
With respect to extraction vs. synthesis, the former is just more economical. You understand, I hope, that I can't go into more detail than that.
Patents on natural phytochemicals are always extremely weak. At best. (Were they otherwise, patent US9387168 would not be possible!) Note that the ingredient we use is listed as "tomatidine-shilajit complex." This is a totally novel ingredient/composition that is not, and now can never be, patented. This is especially the case as the complexation process is itself novel, unpatented, and is, in fact, a bonding process.
JakeAntaeus
New member
Yeah, Endothil-CR. But wasn't it something like 5-10mg of a non-standardized green tomato extract per Endothil-CR tablet? If so, then of course it wouldn't do anything. There'd be micrograms-to-nanograms of tomatidine per tablet.
But it's interesting to note that the mere existence of Endothil-CR may invalidate the aforementioned tomatidine patent, on grounds of prior art. Reasons being that Endothil was (a) marketed as an anabolic, (b) explicitly, and unusually, stated that green tomato extract is the active anabolic ingredient, and (c) may have contained more than 0.14% tomatidine. (Note that even 0.5% of 10mg is still only 50mcg, and it's extremely unlikely that an unstandardized extract would contain more tomatidine than that. It's unlikely that they contain half as much.)
De__eB
Well-known member
I understand of course that you can't go into too much detail, though I am actually even more curious now with you saying it was more economical to extract it to that degree of purity than to synthesize it.
Regarding natural patents, they generally are pretty weak, and almost always end up being reduced to use claims and not ownership of the ingredient itself, and you've certainly done an interesting job of insulating yourself against patent liability. I do fear the folks over at Emmyon might be on a pretty aggressive road to patent enforcement though, half of their employees are patent lawyers. And we've all seen the unfortunate impact of patent enforcement on companies even when those patents may not ultimately be defensible in court.
Smont
Legend
thebigt
Legend
De__eB
Well-known member
That's why we should all educate ourselves and read data while mostly ignoring marketing
Danes
Well-known member
Havent got it yet but soon
I tracked the parcel and its still in Oslo (capital of Norway)
Danes
Well-known member
Yes, Endothil-CR but have you ever looked at the label?
Proprietary Blend 9mg:
-Green Tomato SE
-Grape Seed SE
-Grean Tea SE
-Quercetin
-Rutin
5 ingredients in a 9mg blend !Do I need to say more ??
Danes
Well-known member
That's why we should all educate ourselves and read data while mostly ignoring marketing
But..but.. its so damn fun to try new things yes?
De__eB
Well-known member
But..but.. its so damn fun to try new things yes?
Trying new things is fun, but there's only so much life to spend, so try new things that are at least plausibly likely to work
Danes
Well-known member
Trying new things is fun, but there's only so much life to spend, so try new things that are at least plausibly likely to work
Haha true
Smont
Legend
Absolutely. They had that other 1 that was supposed to increase cardiovascular endurence. My brother bought it right after i finished the endothil crap and i snactched it right out his hand and brought it back to gnc for like 80 bucks n bought him 5lbs a whey and creatine
Smont
Legend
Of course, im bout to experiment with some weed wine right now, happy holidays???But..but.. its so damn fun to try new things yes?
JakeAntaeus
New member
There's something else that's interesting about that tomatidine patent -- and I can't help but wonder if Endothil had something to do with it. We know that the claims are the only legally enforceable part of any patent, and look at claim #1:
1. A method for promoting muscle health, normal muscle function, and/or healthy aging of muscle in skeletal muscle in an animal comprising administering to the animal a solution, dispersion, suspension or emulsion comprising not less than 0.14% by weight of a compound having a structure represented by a formula:
They specify liquid dosage forms, solely. Solid compounds in capsules and tablets are neither solutions, nor dispersions, nor suspensions, nor emulsions. You can't even call the complex a solid solution, on account of the fact that the complexation process is a bonding process, and the newly-formed chemical bonds totally alter tomatidine's crystal lattice configuration. (i.e. it's not tomatidine crystals in a shilajit matrix, but a bunch of bound individual molecules in an entirely new, and much more soluble, arrangement.)
It looks like they were forced to cancel their "capsule or tablet" claims, which appear in one of their earlier unapproved -- later much modified -- applications. I can't help but wonder if we have Endothil to thank for that.
...And between that & the fact that the complex is something quite different from the unaltered molecule....
In any case, I appreciate the heads-up & your concern. Thanks!
As for synthesis vs. extraction, Derek Lowe of the Pipeline blog once said that it's almost always cheaper to grow stuff than to synthesize it. And this is, broadly speaking, true. But the supplement industry is an exception to the rule, for at least a couple of reasons:
-Most of the compounds on offer in our industry are chemically simple, and can be made from commercially-available, cheap intermediates in a couple of steps.
-There is a tremendous infrastructure for the manufacture of synthetic vitamins, amino acids, and steroids like DHEA and 7-Keto-DHEA. (Among others.) The supplement industry is piggybacking on larger industrial, agricultural, and pharmaceutical concerns.
When both don't apply -- when we're looking at compounds that are chemically complex or unusual, and where starting materials, processes, etc. are unknown, unavailable, or untried -- extraction, if possible, becomes preferable.
We see this, to some extent, with Huperzine A. It's a complex synthesis of 10+ steps, and the extraction process is fraught with severe difficulty on account of the rarity of that particular species of moss, so it's a very expensive raw material. Fortunately it's effective in microgram doses, or it wouldn't be commercially viable.
Cordycepin and cycloastragenol, which are both complex to synthesize and extremely difficult to extract in bulk, might serve as further examples. Exorbitantly expensive. Cordycepin has never been made available for just this reason, and cycloastragenol sells in small quantities to anti-aging and cosmetics firms for something absurd, in the six figures per kilogram.
Tomatidine is a very tough synthesis, but tomatoes are, fortunately, available everywhere, year-round. Extraction, though very difficult, was the only viable option. Still expensive, but viable. The process took a long time to develop, and we've gone through more tomatoes than the Campbell's Soup factory, but I think that we've figured it out at last.
Mixelflick
Active member
Recently finished a bottle (1 month) and here are my thoughts..
Bodyweight, composition, strength levels, resting heart rate either remain unchanged or the small strength increases I did make (+ 1-2 reps here/add 5lbs to the bar there) are typical insofar as my stage of the game. Worth noting I'm almost 47, so that may have played a role. I was using the suggested daily dose (2 caps/day - 100mg). I did note one of the studies cited went for 9 weeks, but I couldn't justify buying another bottle. Having said all of that, one thing that did increase (oddly) were my prowler sprints - more than usual.
I began the month loading 200lbs on it and sprint 200 feet. 10 trips up and back until I can sprint no more. Made it up to 250lbs (my bodyweight) at the end of the month. I usually increase 10lbs a week, so I should have been at just 230lbs. It just may be low dose Tomatidine delivers noticeable VO2 Max improvements, while a higher dosage favors LBM.
Then again, Shilajit also enhances the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood (1,2)
1. Dash B. Materia Medica of Ayurveda. New Delhi: B Jain Publishers; 1991.
2. Bhishagratna KK. Susruta Samhita. Vol 2. Varanasi, India: Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office; Varansi-1; 1998. Chapter XIII
I do have some expectations for a higher dosed product. And I'd like to commend Anataeus labs for running with this. It (still) has potential IMO. Also, I'd love to see feedback from other people running it, but haven't seen many updates?
Now, it's on to Hydra Head 6. The more I research this product, the better it looks IMO.
Bodyweight, composition, strength levels, resting heart rate either remain unchanged or the small strength increases I did make (+ 1-2 reps here/add 5lbs to the bar there) are typical insofar as my stage of the game. Worth noting I'm almost 47, so that may have played a role. I was using the suggested daily dose (2 caps/day - 100mg). I did note one of the studies cited went for 9 weeks, but I couldn't justify buying another bottle. Having said all of that, one thing that did increase (oddly) were my prowler sprints - more than usual.
I began the month loading 200lbs on it and sprint 200 feet. 10 trips up and back until I can sprint no more. Made it up to 250lbs (my bodyweight) at the end of the month. I usually increase 10lbs a week, so I should have been at just 230lbs. It just may be low dose Tomatidine delivers noticeable VO2 Max improvements, while a higher dosage favors LBM.
Then again, Shilajit also enhances the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood (1,2)
1. Dash B. Materia Medica of Ayurveda. New Delhi: B Jain Publishers; 1991.
2. Bhishagratna KK. Susruta Samhita. Vol 2. Varanasi, India: Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office; Varansi-1; 1998. Chapter XIII
I do have some expectations for a higher dosed product. And I'd like to commend Anataeus labs for running with this. It (still) has potential IMO. Also, I'd love to see feedback from other people running it, but haven't seen many updates?
Now, it's on to Hydra Head 6. The more I research this product, the better it looks IMO.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
I thought the recommended dose was 4 caps?
Experimenter
New member
If you can somehow live with the fact that this is only my 2nd post on these forums and that unfortunately I have not built up any rep points (power?) yet, here's my thoughts after finishing a bottle of Titan (and going onto bottle #2...bought 3 of them at one time):
- Took 2 caps/day per instructions; 1 AM, 1 PM. Took with meals
- Unfortunately, I also took Hydra Head 6 (HH6 as I've seen abbreviated on these boards) at the same time; 2 AM, 2 PM..with the Titan and with meals.
- No other supplements other than staples: creatine (5 grams/day), casein/whey protein combo + heavy whipping cream, casein hydrolysate + HBCD pre and during workouts
- Caloric intake unchanged or more precisely, no different than normal
Results (so far):
Training: unlike Mixelflicks (thanks for your report on this supplement by the way), I did experience some minor strength gains in terms of weights feeling a bit lighter and able to get a couple more reps than normal on working sets. It should be noted that this was NOT everytime, but more times than not. Was reasonably impressed so far as my perceived effort to accomplish normal training work was lower than normal. Note: I did not necessarily gain strength in terms of poundages lifted or did tremendously more reps than before...it's more like matching those workouts where you performed significantly better than normal but can't really explain it. And matching it more often.
Body Composition: After the 1st week (there was NOTHING noted of any significance during the 1st week for me). But something happened on the 2nd week and on...all I can describe it as is I got harder. I also felt fuller and look fuller....not anything out of the ordinary but it is like my tissues are "holding the pump" for a longer period of time. Hope that makes sense. Leanness wise? Can't really tell. Bodyweight went up slightly over the 1 bottle course, up 3 lbs but I can't attribute this maining to the supps as there might be some other explanation plus I really didn't weight myself before I 1st started (doh!). My bodyweight doesn't usually fluctuate that much though which is the only reason why I mention it.
Other effects:
Now here is where I really want to "believe" in Antaeous Labs but where I might be a little skeptical.....I am a former steroid user who has done many cycles (safely I believe) and know the feeling of effects from exogenous hormone use. There are tell tale signs that only those who use know when you are on. I have been off all anabolics since 2008 but still maintained a excellent training regimen (for me) that for the most part, helped me maintain alot of what I had gained from anabolic use (no, you don't lose it all when you stop...at least not in my case). What I DID LOSE was that feeling you get when on.
There have been some supplements I have used where I felt this same feeling (to a much lesser extent of course, but it was there), and felt, frankly, that the supp was probably 'spiked'. I have to say, the combo of Titan and HH6 gave me somewhat that same feel. I don't want to accuse AL of spiking, but something is interesting with this combo (for me. I gotta say that, because we are all so different in our responses to practically anything I think).
Is it the shilajit? My response to vitamin-c 2-phosphate? Ursolic acid in cyclodextrin complex? Or is it spiked? I'm continuing my run of both products to see. But I am very interested in everyone's else's experiences here.
- Took 2 caps/day per instructions; 1 AM, 1 PM. Took with meals
- Unfortunately, I also took Hydra Head 6 (HH6 as I've seen abbreviated on these boards) at the same time; 2 AM, 2 PM..with the Titan and with meals.
- No other supplements other than staples: creatine (5 grams/day), casein/whey protein combo + heavy whipping cream, casein hydrolysate + HBCD pre and during workouts
- Caloric intake unchanged or more precisely, no different than normal
Results (so far):
Training: unlike Mixelflicks (thanks for your report on this supplement by the way), I did experience some minor strength gains in terms of weights feeling a bit lighter and able to get a couple more reps than normal on working sets. It should be noted that this was NOT everytime, but more times than not. Was reasonably impressed so far as my perceived effort to accomplish normal training work was lower than normal. Note: I did not necessarily gain strength in terms of poundages lifted or did tremendously more reps than before...it's more like matching those workouts where you performed significantly better than normal but can't really explain it. And matching it more often.
Body Composition: After the 1st week (there was NOTHING noted of any significance during the 1st week for me). But something happened on the 2nd week and on...all I can describe it as is I got harder. I also felt fuller and look fuller....not anything out of the ordinary but it is like my tissues are "holding the pump" for a longer period of time. Hope that makes sense. Leanness wise? Can't really tell. Bodyweight went up slightly over the 1 bottle course, up 3 lbs but I can't attribute this maining to the supps as there might be some other explanation plus I really didn't weight myself before I 1st started (doh!). My bodyweight doesn't usually fluctuate that much though which is the only reason why I mention it.
Other effects:
Now here is where I really want to "believe" in Antaeous Labs but where I might be a little skeptical.....I am a former steroid user who has done many cycles (safely I believe) and know the feeling of effects from exogenous hormone use. There are tell tale signs that only those who use know when you are on. I have been off all anabolics since 2008 but still maintained a excellent training regimen (for me) that for the most part, helped me maintain alot of what I had gained from anabolic use (no, you don't lose it all when you stop...at least not in my case). What I DID LOSE was that feeling you get when on.
There have been some supplements I have used where I felt this same feeling (to a much lesser extent of course, but it was there), and felt, frankly, that the supp was probably 'spiked'. I have to say, the combo of Titan and HH6 gave me somewhat that same feel. I don't want to accuse AL of spiking, but something is interesting with this combo (for me. I gotta say that, because we are all so different in our responses to practically anything I think).
Is it the shilajit? My response to vitamin-c 2-phosphate? Ursolic acid in cyclodextrin complex? Or is it spiked? I'm continuing my run of both products to see. But I am very interested in everyone's else's experiences here.
JakeAntaeus
New member
Thanks very much for the feedback, and for your support. Very interesting feedback!
Whatever the case, I can certainly confirm that the products aren't spiked. We've never done that sort of thing, and never will. Let me know what data you'd like to see & I'll hasten to provide it.
Please keep us updated!
AdelV
Well-known member
This^
Way too many good deals lately, and no sale at all for AL is their loss.
I'm actually keen to try Titan, and HH6 but their very expensive. Especially convert that to Australian, we lose 30% automatically.
I'd consider LipoMorph as-well, but no sale sucks. If anything it boosts sales, and logs/reviews so I see it as a positive.
I'll keep track on the logs on both products.
TheIronAsylum
Active member
supressive?
JakeAntaeus
New member
To the contrary, I should think. There's interesting, if not exactly conclusive, data which claims to show that shilajit supplementation can increase testosterone levels in males. And I don't think that tomatidine should do anything to affect that, one way or the other.
In any case, I know of some testers who plan to run Titan /w before-and-after blood tests. It'll be some weeks until they're done with their run, but I'll make sure that their results are reported here.
Experimenter
New member
I'm unfortunately putting up responses to 2 different threads on this subject, some here and some in the supplement logs portion. I just posted in that thread that might be an important note and very relevant regarding my personal experience with the products; here's a copy and paste:
"I think it should be noted that I really think there are potentially other factors that tie into why I'm getting the type of results I'm getting from this combo....and I think a very important piece of data here is the fact that I was a juicer. Since coming off awhile back (in 2008), my natural testosterone levels have never really come back to their average before I started taking. It is not in low testosterone range (clinically), but it is not what my ranges were before. Somehow, the combo of Titan and HH6 "could" be compensating for this, and those who are not having lower than normal (for them) hormone levels might not get the same response as I have. PURE speculation, but I feel I need to add this data in. I hate to be "that guy" who spouts wonderous things about any supplement, drug, or training regimen all the time....I'm not that guy."
Now, I am not on HRT and I have tried Test boosters in the past to no real avail (thus I really don't believe in them). I also think, based upon input from many people I train with or around, that there is a relationship between how one trains and ones test levels when natural. Too hard of a training protocol or regimen results in lower than normal test for that trainer. I know this only because I'm one of several folks in my training circle who do a lot of blood work mostly because we are all getting advanced in age (in our 50's, 60's, or 70's but have been in the iron game for decades) and true enough, when training naturally and on tough (for us) training protocols (high volume, heavy weight, medium frequency) our hormone levels predictably go DOWN after a short time.
"I think it should be noted that I really think there are potentially other factors that tie into why I'm getting the type of results I'm getting from this combo....and I think a very important piece of data here is the fact that I was a juicer. Since coming off awhile back (in 2008), my natural testosterone levels have never really come back to their average before I started taking. It is not in low testosterone range (clinically), but it is not what my ranges were before. Somehow, the combo of Titan and HH6 "could" be compensating for this, and those who are not having lower than normal (for them) hormone levels might not get the same response as I have. PURE speculation, but I feel I need to add this data in. I hate to be "that guy" who spouts wonderous things about any supplement, drug, or training regimen all the time....I'm not that guy."
Now, I am not on HRT and I have tried Test boosters in the past to no real avail (thus I really don't believe in them). I also think, based upon input from many people I train with or around, that there is a relationship between how one trains and ones test levels when natural. Too hard of a training protocol or regimen results in lower than normal test for that trainer. I know this only because I'm one of several folks in my training circle who do a lot of blood work mostly because we are all getting advanced in age (in our 50's, 60's, or 70's but have been in the iron game for decades) and true enough, when training naturally and on tough (for us) training protocols (high volume, heavy weight, medium frequency) our hormone levels predictably go DOWN after a short time.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
The chart on PP used in the write-up, uses 250mg of PS (Purified Shilajit) BID (twice per day), where-as Titan only has 200mg (PS?). And in that chart, they only show an increase in Total T of 99 points (move decimal two places to the right for ng/dl). Free T actually drops for 60 days, then goes up to net a 2.94 point increase. I doubt anything hormonal is happening re: any strength improvements. Most Natty "Boosters" will get you between 100-200 points Total, and a good boost in Free (going by all the recent blood work posted for them).
Attachments
Mixelflick
Active member
Maybe Anateus Labs can confirm.
Says take 1 cap twice daily. I took that to mean 2 caps/day total*. The bottle has 60, so I assumed each bottle was a month's supply. Maybe I mis-interpreted? If I did, my apologies. If that's true, then 1 bottle = two weeks supply and you'd need two bottles a month.
If it IS 4 caps/day, I guess my review is null and void..
*OTOH, it looks like Experimenter interpreted instructions as I did, as he was taking 2/day too..
Says take 1 cap twice daily. I took that to mean 2 caps/day total*. The bottle has 60, so I assumed each bottle was a month's supply. Maybe I mis-interpreted? If I did, my apologies. If that's true, then 1 bottle = two weeks supply and you'd need two bottles a month.
If it IS 4 caps/day, I guess my review is null and void..
*OTOH, it looks like Experimenter interpreted instructions as I did, as he was taking 2/day too..
Mixelflick
Active member
Nice find..
Shilajit has long been held in high regard by the Indians, and likewise its Russian cousin Moomiyo. As a test booster, it has stronger evidence than most but its real value lies in upping work capacity IMO. It s an excellent pick for tomatidine for bio-availability but also the other reasons I just stated. However it pans out the thought put into this formula is impressive. I just wish we had more logs. Saw mention here of bloodwork being done and that'd be huge. Not just test levels but hopefully 24 hr cortisol and CK level (creatine kinase). The latter speaking to (hopefully) lower levels of muscle damage..
dcoen21
Active member
Finished a bottle of Titan about a week ago I will not buy this in the near until probably the product dosage is increased. Have been on fd2 for about three months and know what I am getting out of tha, added in PA about a week and a half ago and I will stick with this for quit awhile, taking 5 tbs of granules is nuts.
Danes
Well-known member
Appreciate your honest review. But 1 month is actually not enough . 2-3 months and then you can say if it worked or not.
Even some PHs need 2-3 weeks to "kick" in.
Danes
Well-known member
Danes
Well-known member
Understand for being skeptical but you should not underestimate the power of nature
My package is sent from customs
will get it in the beginning of next week
thebigt
Legend
My package is sent from customs
soon you will be leaping tall buildings at a single bound!!!
Danes
Well-known member
Oooh yes
I will not run Titan solo. Will stack it with Hydra Head 6. I will drop Phosphatidic acid, HMB FA and other supplements while running this new stack.
Will definitely be honest as always
bb333
Well-known member
Oooh yes
I will not run Titan solo. Will stack it with Hydra Head 6. I will drop Phosphatidic acid, HMB FA and other supplements while running this new stack.
Will definitely be honest as always
Danes sorry but I do not agree
I think you should run solo, Titan, to have after a sincere report.
question:
Hydra Head you've never tried before?
ma70
Well-known member
Well, he can run whatever he wants and how he wants it because it is his money.Danes sorry but I do not agree
I think you should run solo, Titan, to have after a sincere report.
question:
Hydra Head you've never tried before?
Lendo
New member
Interesting how Shilajit works.
I would assume taking Titan with other supps would make those other supps more effecive (or absorbed better) due to the effect of Shilajit?
rtmilburn
Well-known member
No! shilajit to increase absorption has to be BONDED to the ingredient. That's how Titan is, it won't effect other products.
bb333
Well-known member
Obvious! do not mention it
I do not question that!
Context the fact that, to give a "sincere vote" (on Titan, the topic is about this), for a product that will be used for the first time, I think it would be advisable not to pile other supplements (in turn also these ever tested - Hydra Head - ??)
Am I wrong?
As I understand it, - and I apologize if I have "translated" evil, "Danes will try / test for the first time, two new products for it ...
the conclusion is that it will be difficult to give a good feedback, if necessary, to Titan ...
maledetto traduttore!
smith_69
Well-known member
i know i mentioned 1 month wasnt enough; several times. the only gripe i have is the cost of 1 bottle, i really wanted AL to offer a discount on 2 bottles, because that is what is needed.
ma70
Well-known member
Oops. I should have read who posted that. Sorry, I forgot you rely on translations! While I agree with you, in the end, it is his choice.Obvious! do not mention it
I do not question that!
Context the fact that, to give a "sincere vote" (on Titan, the topic is about this), for a product that will be used for the first time, I think it would be advisable not to pile other supplements (in turn also these ever tested - Hydra Head - ??)
Am I wrong?
As I understand it, - and I apologize if I have "translated" evil, "Danes will try / test for the first time, two new products for it ...
the conclusion is that it will be difficult to give a good feedback, if necessary, to Titan ...
maledetto traduttore!
smith_69
Well-known member
didnt say it takes a month bro- i said you would need more than a month- if it takes 2 weeks or a week and few days to start kicking in, 1 month is too short.
test dont work in a week man- lol sounds like your looking for the fountain of supplements here
bb333
Well-known member
No problem, I realized the error of the translationOops. I should have read who posted that. Sorry, I forgot you rely on translations! While I agree with you, in the end, it is his choice.
thebigt
Legend
it is surprising how confusing that concept can be, lol.
thebigt
Legend
I dont have time to run them one by one. 3 month of both is enough.
I will drop PA and other supps and my workout routine and diet will be the same.
If it works, I will recommend the stack, If not, I will not recommend Titan or HH6
I don't think anyone would question your honesty or integrity.....unless they are a noob!!!:cool2:
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Danes is as honest as it gets!!!!! Love the man straight forward, no bs, nice guy, who knows a TON!