Tomatidine (potent natural anabolic?)

Danes

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Tomatidine is a steroidal alkaloid found in skins and leaves of tomatoes which can :

-Increase skeletal muscle mTORC1 signaling
-Reduce skeletal muscle atrophy
-Enhanced recovery
-Stimulate skeletal muscle hypertrophy, and
increase strength and exercise capacity

http://ergo-log.com/tomatidine-the-anabolic-in-tomatoes.html

I have personaly been very interested to try Tomatidine/GTE in many years now and Antaeus Labs released Titan which contain Tomatidine.
 
Danes

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I plan to use Orig1n for at least 3 more months. Might stack this with it for 8 weeks or so though.
I will run or1gin 6 months so first 3 months just or1gin and 3 last months with Tomatidine/Shilajit
 
Danes

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Hell yeah from what I've heard your test levels will get to like 1500 in that time lol
Honestly I am not interested to waste my time on that kind of BS, but it is time to crush those BS claims !

muscleupcrohn , clear your inbox :)
 
jh1

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That sounds like a good plan. I will more than likely pick up a few more bottles of Orig1n during one of the upcoming sales to extend my run (only bought 4 bottles initially). Will be running Kings Blood with it for 8 weeks starting in a few days. Thinking Tomatidine will likely follow that.
I will run or1gin 6 months so first 3 months just or1gin and 3 last months with Tomatidine/Shilajit
 
Danes

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That sounds like a good plan. I will more than likely pick up a few more bottles of Orig1n during one of the upcoming sales to extend my run (only bought 4 bottles initially). Will be running Kings Blood with it for 8 weeks starting in a few days. Thinking Tomatidine will likely follow that.
Sounds like a good plan to me :)
 
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ma70

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Tomatidine is a steroidal alkaloid found in skins and leaves of tomatoes which can :

-Increase skeletal muscle mTORC1 signaling
-Reduce skeletal muscle atrophy
-Enhanced recovery
-Stimulate skeletal muscle hypertrophy, and
increase strength and exercise capacity

http://ergo-log.com/tomatidine-the-anabolic-in-tomatoes.html

I have personaly been very interested to try Tomatidine/GTE in many years now and Antaeus Labs released Titan which contain Tomatidine.
Shilajit complex looks very good. I hear it is better than cyclodextrins, etc
 
mmorso

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Shilajit complex looks very good. I hear it is better than cyclodextrins, etc
It's in kings blood right? I'm finally getting my order of KB tomorrow... hopefully it works.. I feel like dog sh1t and just finished PCT
 

ma70

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It's in kings blood right? I'm finally getting my order of KB tomorrow... hopefully it works.. I feel like dog sh1t and just finished PCT
It is in King's Blood I believe, but it is not complexed. The Shilajit complex in AL Titan is used to increase the absorption of Tomatadine.
 
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Synapsin

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I believe it is out :)
Definitely worth a try!
Out later this month I believe.

It will probably be one of those sups that work but you won't really notice it.. like betaine or cla...
We'll see :) Jake was kind enough to provide a bottle (thank you Jake), but obviously I'll give an honest review.
 
Danes

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Complexing with Shilajit is very interesting and a "new" way to enhance bioavailability of compounds.
Main component in Shilajit is Fulvic acid. "Fulvic acid's low molecular weight helps render cellular walls more penetrable by reducing their surface tension, thus allowing cells to more easily and efficiently respirate, hydrate, absorb minerals, amino acids and other nutrients, and eliminate waste."
 
Danes

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Out later this month I believe.



We'll see :) Jake was kind enough to provide a bottle (thank you Jake), but obviously I'll give an honest review.
Honest review is what Uncle Danes love <3 :)
 
mmorso

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Out later this month I believe.



We'll see :) Jake was kind enough to provide a bottle (thank you Jake), but obviously I'll give an honest review.
Tag me when you do bro... honestly I'm getting increasingly skeptical about all these sups... only natty that I really like is PA. Laxogenin is worthless (for me) and I'm not sure about epicatechin yet...
 
Synapsin

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Complexing with Shilajit is very interesting and a "new" way to enhance bioavailability of compounds.
Main component in Shilajit is Fulvic acid. "Fulvic acid's low molecular weight helps render cellular walls more penetrable by reducing their surface tension, thus allowing cells to more easily and efficiently respirate, hydrate, absorb minerals, amino acids and other nutrients, and eliminate waste."
Indeed :)

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/antaeus-labs/287021-antaeus-labs-titan.html#post5566644

Honest review is what Uncle Danes love <3 :)
Of course! I'm nothing but honest. I don't recommend products I wouldn't use myself

Tag me when you do bro... honestly I'm getting increasingly skeptical about all these sups... only natty that I really like is PA. Laxogenin is worthless (for me) and I'm not sure about epicatechin yet...
For sure. I haven't tried PA yet, but I'm not big on laxo. Epi I've never tried and I feel the research is somewhat coming along (better research available now than when it first came out).
 
BigGame84

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Just purchased a bottle of Titan. Will report back...
 
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Danes

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When something is "Complexed" for better absorption, it is usually listed somewhere on the label, ie. Meriva Curcumin and OL Epic Unleashed both list Phosphatidylcholine for example. How is this complexed? How does one "Complex" the Tomatadine with the Shilajit? Certainly it's not just taking both at the same time?
It more complexing with fulvic acid :)
 
The_Old_Guy

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It more complexing with fulvic acid :)
So the Tomatidine is inside the FA molecule? Or attached, and that's how it gets carried through? Somebody is going to have to explain what complexed exactly means in this case. With Phytosomes or Cyclosomes, you stick something inside the Phospolipid or Cyclodextrin. I didn't know you could stick something inside Fulvic Acid?
 
Danes

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So the Tomatidine is inside the FA molecule? Or attached, and that's how it gets carried through? Somebody is going to have to explain what complexed exactly means in this case. With Phytosomes or Cyclosomes, you stick something inside the Phospolipid or Cyclodextrin. I didn't know you could stick something inside Fulvic Acid?
No, with cyclodextrin and phospholipid, you are not putting anything inside it.
Bonding means linking two or more things together chemically. This is different than simply mixing things together. It is also different from liposomes. Liposomes is basically a ball of fatty acids and inside the ball you have the compound you have encapsulated. Your body doesn't try to break down the liposome (depending on the type of liposome) until it gets into circulation where enzymes will break it down.

If you just bond compounds to phospholipids (PC is a phospholipid) or Cyclodextrin, you improve bioavailability by "sneaking" some of the compound into the intestinal track. I'm not sure on this but I think that you still have the issue of stomach acids damaging the compound so even though you get better bioavailability it's still not great (if your bioavailability is let us say 5%, you triple that and you're still only getting 15%, even if you make it 6x, that's still only 30% in the best case scenario). Liposomal delivery however, you encapsulate the compound inside the liposome. The liposome protects the compound from the stomach acids. You're body also allows liposomes to pass easily through the intestinal walls (to you body, it just sees the liposome, it doesn't see the compound inside yet, when the liposome gets into your system and is circulating, that's when you have the enzymatic actions freeing the compound from the liposome, since the liposome is already circulating in your blood, when the compound is freed, the compound in turn is also in your blood).

This is something I have learned from a guy who is extremely knowledgeable :)
 
The_Old_Guy

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This is something I have learned from a guy who is extremely knowledgeable :)
Since none of "enhancers" you and I have discussed so far, are mentioned in relation to this new product - Just tell me how the Tomatidine and Fulvic Acid are "complexed" ;)
 
Danes

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Since none of "enhancers" you and I have discussed so far, are mentioned in relation to this new product - Just tell me how the Tomatidine and Fulvic Acid are "complexed" ;)
honestly, I am not 100% sure what method they used :)
I will find out :)
Maybe they have placed Tomatidine inside Shilajit. Tomatidine has low molecular weight.
 
JakeAntaeus

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Since none of "enhancers" you and I have discussed so far, are mentioned in relation to this new product - Just tell me how the Tomatidine and Fulvic Acid are "complexed" ;)

Before releasing the product, we carefully tested tomatidine in cyclodextrin complexes, phospholipid complexes, and shilajit complexes. In terms of dissolution, the cyclodextrin (HPBCD) and shilajit complexes were roughly equal -- but the shilajit complex dissolved much more rapidly in water, which is a major plus. The use of shilajit also brings with it additional benefits, and it is more clearly DSHEA compliant. Shilajit isn't cheap, but it was clearly the best choice for use with tomatidine.

The mechanism of complexation is not terribly straightforward. It involves a combination of hydrogen bonding, inclusion in humic acid cavities, and particle amorphization. There are some details in the studies I've referenced in the product's writeup.

Aside: Phospholipid complexation does not mean sticking anything "inside" phospholipid envelopes. Dane is absolutely right.

The word "Phytosome" is actually sneaky. It piggybacks on the word "liposome" -- but phytosomes are not liposomes. Liposomes actually are phospholipid envelops which contain active drugs.

Liposomes are far from ideal for supplement products. Their production requires a tremendous excess of phospholipid/sterol. If I'm not mistaken, loading is typically around 3-4% -- so 100mg of liposomal curcumin would deliver quite a negligible amount of curcumin. (It would be no mistake to simply visualize this as trapping curcumin molecules inside a large envelope of phospholipid/sterol. It doesn't even make sense as a concept, from first principles, without a huge excess of phospholipid.)

Another thing to consider is that liposomes, practically by definition, are colloidal suspensions. For e.g., Wikipedia's list of approved liposomal drugs is a list of liquid formulations. And I'm not aware of any exceptions that are commercially available.

Solid liposome formulations are, of course, possible, but they are very difficult to make, and seem to be very difficult to stabilize. They are generally freeze-dried from the aforementioned colloidal suspensions, and require lyoprotectants, storage in low-humidity conditions, etc. Not terribly practical.

So, with all that said, phytosomes are not liposomes. Which is not to say that they're bad; phospholipid complexation is a valid and effective technique. But it's a "bonding" technique, not an "inclusion" technique. I can't post links, but see figure 7 at PMC4914027 for an idea of how this would look; it's all H-bonding.

H-Bonding is the basis of shilajit complexation, as well. (Though there's more to it than that!)
 
Danes

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Before releasing the product, we carefully tested tomatidine in cyclodextrin complexes, phospholipid complexes, and shilajit complexes. In terms of dissolution, the cyclodextrin (HPBCD) and shilajit complexes were roughly equal -- but the shilajit complex dissolved much more rapidly in water, which is a major plus. The use of shilajit also brings with it additional benefits, and it is more clearly DSHEA compliant. Shilajit isn't cheap, but it was clearly the best choice for use with tomatidine.

The mechanism of complexation is not terribly straightforward. It involves a combination of hydrogen bonding, inclusion in humic acid cavities, and particle amorphization. There are some details in the studies I've referenced in the product's writeup.

Aside: Phospholipid complexation does not mean sticking anything "inside" phospholipid envelopes. Dane is absolutely right.

The word "Phytosome" is actually sneaky. It piggybacks on the word "liposome" -- but phytosomes are not liposomes. Liposomes actually are phospholipid envelops which contain active drugs.

Liposomes are far from ideal for supplement products. Their production requires a tremendous excess of phospholipid/sterol. If I'm not mistaken, loading is typically around 3-4% -- so 100mg of liposomal curcumin would deliver quite a negligible amount of curcumin. (It would be no mistake to simply visualize this as trapping curcumin molecules inside a large envelope of phospholipid/sterol. It doesn't even make sense as a concept, from first principles, without a huge excess of phospholipid.)

Another thing to consider is that liposomes, practically by definition, are colloidal suspensions. For e.g., Wikipedia's list of approved liposomal drugs is a list of liquid formulations. And I'm not aware of any exceptions that are commercially available.

Solid liposome formulations are, of course, possible, but they are very difficult to make, and seem to be very difficult to stabilize. They are generally freeze-dried from the aforementioned colloidal suspensions, and require lyoprotectants, storage in low-humidity conditions, etc. Not terribly practical.

So, with all that said, phytosomes are not liposomes. Which is not to say that they're bad; phospholipid complexation is a valid and effective technique. But it's a "bonding" technique, not an "inclusion" technique. I can't post links, but see figure 7 at PMC4914027 for an idea of how this would look; it's all H-bonding.

H-Bonding is the basis of shilajit complexation, as well. (Though there's more to it than that!)
Glad you could post this :)
 
emiliozapata

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I will run or1gin 6 months so first 3 months just or1gin and 3 last months with Tomatidine/Shilajit
Be careful, a lot , if not most, shilajit has been found to be laden with heavy metals
 
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thebigt

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interesting!!!
 
Alex281

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Will be running Titan at 3-4 caps a day, will report back.
 

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