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I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

On second look, it appears the info for Epiq might be outdated? Nutrition info pasted above (from Epiq's own website) lists 30 servings of 5 caplets, while the ones I just purchased state 140 softgels on the front of the box.

Also, the Epiq site lists 3 retailers for purchase, and the PA is no longer available at any of them. Possibly discontinued? Hoping I just bought some remaining stock on the cheap, and didn't actually get ripped off.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Well, the dose in grams should remain the same for powder as with granules, assuming their the same thing, just one is a powder. Some say de-oiled (which is good, the granules/powder has more PA than liquid lecithin), and some are standardized for a minimum total phosphatidites, which is also nice. However, you should be looking at 4-7% PA from lecithin granules/powder. With that in mind, to be sure you get 750mg PA (the studied dose) you want at least 18.75g lecithin, which would give you between 750-1312mg PA. For the granules, that's about 2.5tbsp. The powder may need a little less, as it'd be tighter packed, but I'm not sure.
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Ok, so I asked the seller/manufacturer if it was standardized, here is what they replied with:

Question: Is it standardized for a minimum total phosphatidites? If so, what %? Thanks!
Answer: This product contains: AI Phosphatides 98% Phosphatidylcholine PC 22- 55%.

Since I see that Fearn is standardized to 97% Phosphadites, they are pretty much equivalent. And the powder is de-oiled, although a little more expensive than the granules (1kg for $28 shipped). But it does dissolve pretty fast. I may try the granules later, to see if they treat me any better/worse. So far no gas or other sides on the powder.

My understanding that the (standardized) total phosphadites does not guarantee a % of PA?

I have been taking 2 TBS with my PWO and also in the morning on non-workout days. So far it has treated me well.
 
Well, minimum is 4%, so I would target a minimum of about 18,75g or a little bit more. My 98% lecithine indicates this data on its label and seems to be in line with what can be found online
 
mbonheur said:
Well, minimum is 4%, so I would target a minimum of about 18,75g or a little bit more. My 98% lecithine indicates this data on its label and seems to be in line with what can be found online
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Thanks. 2 TBS of the powder is just shy of 18g, so if I rounded the TBS that should put me over.
 
ma70 said:
If you've never tried PA, you definitely should. It's good during cutting, bulking, recomping, and it can be found fairly cheap and has proven benefits via anecdote and studies.
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Yeah, I was just reading up on it. I'm thinking about getting Tr1umph by OL.
 
cbsharpe said:
Yeah, I was just reading up on it. I'm thinking about getting Tr1umph by OL.
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If you can find a good deal on it, go for it. I think if you're skeptical of the ingredient (which I assume so because you haven't tried it yet) then you should go with Fearn Soy Lecithin. ~12$ a month for a 750+mg dosage is very cost effective and makes it a no brainer. Also, if you want to test PA itself, then that is the best way to go. OL Tr1umph has a lot of ingredients in it, although they're only staples.
 
ma70 said:
If you can find a good deal on it, go for it. I think if you're skeptical of the ingredient (which I assume so because you haven't tried it yet) then you should go with Fearn Soy Lecithin. ~12$ a month for a 750+mg dosage is very cost effective and makes it a no brainer. Also, if you want to test PA itself, then that is the best way to go. OL Tr1umph has a lot of ingredients in it, although they're only staples.
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Yeah, thanks amigo. I've heard and read about PA before but just never tried it. You think I should try it by itself rather in a blend like Tr1umph? But yeah, the ingredient profile in OL's product is amazing.
 
cbsharpe said:
Yeah, thanks amigo. I've heard and read about PA before but just never tried it. You think I should try it by itself rather in a blend like Tr1umph? But yeah, the ingredient profile in OL's product is amazing.
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Tr1umph is great and the profile is good, but at the same time, if you really want to try PA itself and see how it works for you, it's best to eliminate the variables.
 
ma70 said:
Tr1umph is great and the profile is good, but at the same time, if you really want to try PA itself and see how it works for you, it's best to eliminate the variables.
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Makes complete sense. Do you have a good recommendation on where to get the Fearn Soy Lecithin?
 
Nevermind, google is my friend. I've found some good places and prices for the Fearn product. Thanks for your advice ma70!
 
ma70 said:
Tr1umph is great and the profile is good, but at the same time, if you really want to try PA itself and see how it works for you, it's best to eliminate the variables.
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Went ahead and grabbed Fearn's SL during my lunch break. Sprinkled 2TBS on my chicken and rice that I had. We'll see how it goes.
 
cbsharpe said:
Oh yeah. My plan was and is to have 2tbs for lunch and another 1-2tbs during my dinner. Today is my off day at the gym.
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I would stay at 3 tbs if you are just starting it for the first time. See how 3 tbs treats you then you can go up to 4 tbs if you feel it's necessary. Higher doses can cause some mild side effects.
 
ELROCK said:
I would stay at 3 tbs if you are just starting it for the first time. See how 3 tbs treats you then you can go up to 4 tbs if you feel it's necessary. Higher doses can cause some mild side effects.
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Roger that! Thanks for the tip ELROCK!
 
warpyfunch said:
Wait, doesn't 2 tbsp of Fearn granules already have like 1200mg PA? Even if that's a high estimate, 2 tbsp should still provide at least 750mg, no?
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The label is incorrect....or makes "assumptions". SL granules are anywhere from 4-7%...which means you MAY get 1200...or much less.
 
ma70 said:
The label is incorrect....or makes "assumptions". SL granules are anywhere from 4-7%...which means you MAY get 1200...or much less.
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Ah got it... thanks. Also, I'm a little outdated on this, but just to confirm... more PA is still better, right? 750mg minimum, but 1.5mg doubly good? Thinking of using tr1umph and epiq together.
 
warpyfunch said:
Ah got it... thanks. Also, I'm a little outdated on this, but just to confirm... more PA is still better, right? 750mg minimum, but 1.5mg doubly good? Thinking of using tr1umph and epiq together.
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A select few have tried 2200+ mg. I would say diminishing returns past 1500mg, but it is your money :)
 
warpyfunch said:
Ah got it... thanks. Also, I'm a little outdated on this, but just to confirm... more PA is still better, right? 750mg minimum, but 1.5mg doubly good? Thinking of using tr1umph and epiq together.
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I don't recall any dose response curve studies. Wilson just used 750mg, check the new MaxxTor study for what they used. You can't increase mTOR infinitely - but I think 1500mg is within reason.
 
I had great success on 4-5 tbs, side effect slight abdominal bloat. Wondering if that is a pa or granules thing? Realizing increase in muscle glycogen has that effect.
 
ma70 said:
A select few have tried 2200+ mg. I would say diminishing returns past 1500mg, but it is your money :)
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The_Old_Guy said:
I don't recall any dose response curve studies. Wilson just used 750mg, check the new MaxxTor study for what they used. You can't increase mTOR infinitely - but I think 1500mg is within reason.
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Got it, as long as it's not a waste... I thought I remembered reading in this thread several months ago that more PA is better, but just wanted to check if opinions had changed since then. (will try to dig up the old posts.)

I'm understanding 750mg minimum, 1500mg even better, and beyond that diminishing returns.

So I'm considering 1 scoop tr1umph (913mg) + 4 caps epiq (600mg).

Also, has there been any concern that tr1umph doesn't seem to use Mediator brand PA?
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I don't recall any dose response curve studies. Wilson just used 750mg, check the new MaxxTor study for what they used. You can't increase mTOR infinitely - but I think 1500mg is within reason.
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No studies in particular, but anecdote has shown that you get more increased glycogen retention and muscle fullness per higher dosage (via both caps or granules). Also, awhile back, Danes discussed this with Wilson and Wilson agreed that more would definitely be better, but it was only a matter of diminishing returns. Me, personally, I hated granules, so I just did the minimum "guaranteed" dosage of 3 TbSp.
 
warpyfunch said:
Also, has there been any concern that tr1umph doesn't seem to use Mediator brand PA?
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They use standardized soy lecithin. There's no concern (or even difference) between Tr1umph and Soy Lecithin Granules except you know exactly how much PA you're getting.
 
mase1 said:
Granules are fine, but a pill would be better. Just not cost effective yet for me.
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I'd argue that this little Epiq BOGO is very cost effective for now. 2 months worth of 750mg PA for 30 bucks, pretty damn good.
 
Found it...
Danes said:
Not only Stout but Dr Wilson too :)

I used 1.5g from april and i clearly felt 750mg was nothing to brag of. But 1.5g was much better..

Increase in apetitte
Musclefulness
Size and strength

I asked wilson would 3g PA be more beneficial than regular 750mg ..

Answer:
To be honest based on our cell culture data I think it would work better

Those who dont feel anything from PA i recommend to increase at least to 1.5g but really should play with even higher dosages
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ma70 said:
I'd argue that this little Epiq BOGO is very cost effective for now. 2 months worth of 750mg PA for 30 bucks, pretty damn good.
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Agreed... $15/month is only a couple bucks more than the Fearn granules after all, plus it's the concentrated mediator stuff.
 
ma70 said:
No studies in particular, but anecdote has shown that you get more increased glycogen retention and muscle fullness per higher dosage (via both caps or granules). Also, awhile back, Danes discussed this with Wilson and Wilson agreed that more would definitely be better, but it was only a matter of diminishing returns. Me, personally, I hated granules, so I just did the minimum "guaranteed" dosage of 3 TbSp.
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Yeah, I hear you my friend. I was talking more along the lines of "How much more mass will I put on if I eat 500g of protein, vs 250g?" There's a point where more won't matter. Like you said - diminishing returns.
 
mase1 said:
At 1.5g pa that is still $30/month. Still feel granules is half that price of not better.
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The math also depends heavily on how much PA you believe is actually in a 15g serving of granules, despite the label claim. As briefly discussed earlier, the typical range often cited is 4-7%, which would be anywhere from 600mg to 1050mg. 1200mg as claimed on the label would be 8%.

so, for a $12 tub of granules...

600mg per serving = $1 per 1500mg
750mg per serving = $0.80 per 1500mg
1000mg per serving = $0.60 per 1500mg
1200mg per serving = $0.50 per 1500mg

The Epiq caps at current BOGO price of $15 per bottle = $1.07 per 1500mg

So yes, more expensive, but not super clear exactly how much more expensive without knowing the exact amount of PA in the granules.
 
warpyfunch said:
The math also depends heavily on how much PA you believe is actually in a 15g serving of granules, despite the label claim. As briefly discussed earlier, the typical range often cited is 4-7%, which would be anywhere from 600mg to 1050mg. 1200mg as claimed on the label would be 8%.

so, for a $12 tub of granules...

600mg per serving = $1 per 1500mg
750mg per serving = $0.80 per 1500mg
1000mg per serving = $0.60 per 1500mg
1200mg per serving = $0.50 per 1500mg

The Epiq caps at current BOGO price of $15 per bottle = $1.07 per 1500mg

So yes, more expensive, but not super clear exactly how much more expensive without knowing the exact amount of PA in the granules.
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Agree. Great post
 
cbsharpe said:
Can I just chug or chase down the granules in a liquid? Has anyone done this?
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That's how most do it. When I was on the granules previously, I would actually mix it in with my preworkout for flavor, and then let it sit for like 20min. Letting it sit caused the granules to dissolve a bit and made it less of a chore to drink down.
 
warpyfunch said:
That's how most do it. When I was on the granules previously, I would actually mix it in with my preworkout for flavor, and then let it sit for like 20min. Letting it sit caused the granules to dissolve a bit and made it less of a chore to drink down.
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Oh okay. Yeah, I've been mixing it in my food like rice and even in my oatmeal, but you're right, it does dissolve after a few minutes. I'm going to try chugging it this evening. For some unknown reason, the taste doesn't bother me. Thanks warpy!
 
cbsharpe said:
Oh okay. Yeah, I've been mixing it in my food like rice and even in my oatmeal, but you're right, it does dissolve after a few minutes. I'm going to try chugging it this evening. For some unknown reason, the taste doesn't bother me. Thanks warpy!
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Wayyy back in this thread I asked if mixing granules into hot food would degrade the PA content at all, and was advised that it very well might. That's why I stuck with a drink rather than putting them into oatmeal. Still not sure if it was ever true or not.
 
warpyfunch said:
Wayyy back in this thread I asked if mixing granules into hot food would degrade the PA content at all, and was advised that it very well might. That's why I stuck with a drink rather than putting them into oatmeal.
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Oh really? Okay, good to know. I'll keep it away from anything hot.
 
cbsharpe said:
Oh really? Okay, good to know. I'll keep it away from anything hot.
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Yup, you're hearing it 3rd hand though, and I don't even remember who originally told me that. Tried to find the old post just now, but came up empty. At the time I had no idea if it was even true, but figured better safe than sorry.
 
Thanks for the heads up on the Epiq BOGO, gents. Now for 4 tbsp + 750mg Mediator instead of 5 tbsp. Save them fat macros.
 
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