DOJ to announce actions against dietary supplements makers

[jp_x_type]

re the liver issues

i did read it, this is something that interests me.

i am not saying it was not down to the product. i merely stated i THINK in my opinion it cannot be said its 100% down to the product simply because these things are too complicated to say it was only down to the product that these people got liver issues.

i am not defending usplabs as you can see from my posts, quite the contrary actually. i am just taking the liver issues claims with a bit of doubt until the whole juridical process runs its course and the guys are judged guilty beyond doubt

 

[Tiocfaidh]

Did you even read the indictment?

They were absolutely down to the product itself.

that's if you believe the indictment 100%.

 

[VaughnTrue]

that's if you believe the indictment 100%.

you have to take everything at face value, however if they actually have the email chain they claim to, with the quoted parts included...pretty hard to dispute much.

 

[money0351]

So did everyone skip this in regards to the liver issues in HI?

http://anabolicminds.com/articles/mysterious-hawaii-liver-disease-case-naproxen-overdose-rather-than-oxyelite-pro-17293/

 

[Tiocfaidh]

you have to take everything at face value, however if they actually have the email chain they claim to, with the quoted parts included...pretty hard to dispute much.

i have no doubt they lied about their imports. they should be punished for that. i just wonder if the liver issues were something else. it's been alluded to before it was not oxyelite or any ingredient in there.

 

[Justlooking5]

I feel like someone in her or the ufcs management should have redflagged that endorsement immediately.

I wish more of the the retard couch potato sports fans out there who get all pissy about PEDs, yet simultaneously eat junk food, yell at the athletes to perform better, and go to GNC to buy the newest "weight loss shortcut" products realize that the whole PED thing in pro sports likely a situation where a lot of it is going on but everyone maintains their "innocence."

 

[thebigt]

usplabs and sk made the morning news his morning....now that it has gone mainstream, doj will have to slap some keister!!!

 

[mw1]

you have to take everything at face value, however if they actually have the email chain they claim to, with the quoted parts included...pretty hard to dispute much.

Especially when the emails go back over 5 yrs. Who knows what else they have on them.
What I don't understand is why they would be "laundering" over 200 million dollars

 

[Jiigzz]

i have no doubt they lied about their imports. they should be punished for that. i just wonder if the liver issues were something else. it's been alluded to before it was not oxyelite or any ingredient in there.

Given what we know now, I'd say they lied and tried to pass the blame to counterfeit oxyelite that didnt actually exist.

 

[Woody]

I wish more of the the retard couch potato sports fans out there who get all pissy about PEDs, yet simultaneously eat junk food, yell at the athletes to perform better, and go to GNC to buy the newest "weight loss shortcut" products realize that the whole PED thing in pro sports likely a situation where a lot of it is going on but everyone maintains their "innocence."

So you're okay with PED in pro sports bc everyone does it behind closed doors and the majority of people don't get caught?

I think it ruins the integrity of the game, but I suppose that is a conversation for another thread. Admin had a topic of the week about it a while back. Good points were made on both sides.

 

[thebigt]

Especially when the emails go back over 5 yrs. Who knows what else they have on them.
What I don't understand is why they would be "laundering" over 200 million dollars

1 example of e-mail was actually shown on the morning news!!!!

 

[De__eB]

1 example of e-mail was actually shown on the morning news!!!!

many examples of email are...in the indictment

 

[Woody]

My local supplement store has modern protein/bcaa/creatine for 9.99 ..........

 

[thebigt]

many examples of email are...in the indictment

call me a fool...but to me showing an example of email on morning news almost guarantees that doj MUST take action. not threats, but action this time-and swiftly!!!

 

[De__eB]

call me a fool...but to me showing an example of email on morning news almost guarantees that doj MUST take action. not threats, but action this time-and swiftly!!!

What do you think the news story was about...the DOJ taking ation...

 

[Justlooking5]

So you're okay with PED in pro sports bc everyone does it behind closed doors and the majority of people don't get caught?

I think it ruins the integrity of the game, but I suppose that is a conversation for another thread. Admin had a topic of the week about it a while back. Good points were made on both sides.

Personally, I don't give a sh*t other than that I sympathize with the fact that athletes who don't want to take them might feel pressured to take them to perform at a competitive level.

Aside from that, I don't think pro sports have the importance many people place on them. If my home football team wins or loses a game, it literally changes nothing meaningful in the world ... people get a vicarious sense of accomplishment/identity from being fans of successful pro sports teams, but that doesn't mean it's not mostly illusory and basically a kind of distraction.

On the other hand, most of the stuff people place their confidence in is kind of absurd anyway, from where you went to school or the size of your home, or even the size of your biceps ... most of the time your genetics/the socioeconomic status your were born into/other things you had nothing to do with has a lot of influence on this sort of thing. That said, at least bicep size actually takes work and persistence and other qualities, which is more than can be said for the typical sports fan's contribution to the win/loss ratio of the team whose jersey they wear on on Sundays.

 

[thebigt]

What do you think the news story was about...the DOJ taking ation...

jacked is still available at vitamin shop, I just put one in my cart for ****s and giggles.

 

[De__eB]

jacked is still available at vitamin shop, I just put one in my cart for ****s and giggles.

Because nothing about the current generation jack3d was questioned in any way?

 

[thebigt]

Because nothing about the current generation jack3d was questioned in any way?

that rationale seems questionable for a large national retailer, at least, imo!!!

 

[De__eB]

Well seeing that they faked other documentation and "studies" the likely hood of this being fake is high as well.

Lets say there's a mid-range 10mg/serving dose of BMPEA. (The actual doses range from 27mg in Fasti-XR to 1mg in Stimerex as quantitified in the Cohen study)

Hi-Tech alleges to have sold 200,000,000 doses of BMPEA.

2,000,000 grams of BMPEA.

That's 4,409 pounds of BMPEA.

The highest possible natural occurence of BMPEA in Acacia that Hi-Tech cited in their own court filings is 12.4 parts per million.

To extract 4,409 pounds of BMPEA at a starting ratio of 12.4 parts per million would require processing 355,564,516 pounds of Acacia leaves and stems.

So is the BMPEA in Hi-Tech products synthetic BMPEA, or an extract as they claim on their labels and marketing?

Because I have a hard time believing that Hi-Tech has processed that much Acacia raw material.

And wouldn't labeling synthetic BMPEA as Acacia extract be exactly the crime USPLabs is accused of committing?

--

Note: I'm not strictly against BMPEA in supplements, and I think the industry should be free to use whatever they want if it's safe. But this sort of situation is exactly where the industry runs foul of FDA interpretation/enforcement. There are MANY ingredients where the math comes out the same (the doses used and raw materials that would have been required to source the ingredient naturally just do not add up)

 

[thebigt]

Lets say there's a mid-range 10mg/serving dose of BMPEA. (The actual doses range from 27mg in Fasti-XR to 1mg in Stimerex as quantitified in the Cohen study)

Hi-Tech alleges to have sold 200,000,000 doses of BMPEA.

2,000,000 grams of BMPEA.

That's 4,409 pounds of BMPEA.

The highest possible natural occurence of BMPEA in Acacia that Hi-Tech cited in their own court filings is 12.4 parts per million.

To extract 4,409 pounds of BMPEA at a starting ratio of 12.4 parts per million would require processing 355,564,516 pounds of Acacia leaves and stems.

So is the BMPEA in Hi-Tech products synthetic BMPEA, or an extract as they claim on their labels and marketing?

Because I have a hard time believing that Hi-Tech has processed that much Acacia raw material.

And wouldn't labeling synthetic BMPEA as Acacia extract be exactly the crime USPLabs is accused of committing?

--

Note: I'm not strictly against BMPEA in supplements, and I think the industry should be free to use whatever they want if it's safe. But this sort of situation is exactly where the industry runs foul of FDA interpretation/enforcement. There are MANY ingredients where the math comes out the same (the doses used and raw materials that would have been required to source the ingredient naturally just do not add up)

you are too damned smart...want to do my taxes for me????

 

[Adizzle1]

That would be about 13,000 tons of raw acacia per year but we must take into account its being manufactured for countless very large companies like Nutrex, VPX, IForce, Hi-Tech so that amount of material may be plausible considering jsut 1 company itself(USP) was bringing in 2 tons of material in a single shipment.

 

[Tiocfaidh]

Given what we know now, I'd say they lied and tried to pass the blame to counterfeit oxyelite that didnt actually exist.

i believe the lot numbers were confirmed and acknowledged by the fda on the last case. i think the other cases naproxen was found as the culprit as stated here. either way, they're ****ed for all the other stuff.

http://www.jscimedcentral.com/Liver/liver-2-1013.pdf

 

[Woody]

So hi tech buys up a bunch of companies and sues a bunch of other companies but is legit and not doing anything sketchy.

Sure ya are, pal.

 

[VaughnTrue]

So hi tech buys up a bunch of companies and sues a bunch of other companies but is legit and not doing anything sketchy.

Sure ya are, pal.

what companies are we currently suing? I honestly don't know of any supplement companies, only the FDA currently.

if you know of any that we are suing right now, I'd love to read the info/links if you have them

 

[De__eB]

what companies are we currently suing? I honestly don't know of any supplement companies, only the FDA currently.

if you know of any that we are suing right now, I'd love to read the info/links if you have them

You're countersuing Jared Wheat's best friend in the world Ron Kramer right now

You're also suing IronMagLabs over their sale of alleged non-compliant products, as well as patent violations for sale of 1&4-DHEA

 

[VaughnTrue]

You're countersuing Jared Wheat's best friend in the world Ron Kramer right now

You're also suing IronMagLabs over their sale of alleged non-compliant products, as well as patent violations for sale of 1&4-DHEA

ah, I forgot about all the fun Jared and RK have. Those two sure bring a lot of excitement to the table

 

[carmaf]

Hmmm, I have 2 bottles of Ultimate-T, not sure if I'll try them.

Don't do it. I can't have anything happening to you...bc I need your hilarious posts in my life!

Why not? To my knowledge, other than the discontinued products (Oxy and Jacked) nothing else has been tainted.

So they poisoned people once, and A) you think that's acceptable and B) you're gonna gamble to see if they are going to do it again or not??? You are a bold man.

Not that I've tried any of their products but why do I get the sense Hi-Tech is shady.

I agree 100%. They sell nonsense labelled with names such as "Anavar", which makes them seem like the typical shady supp company from the 90s ie. Ultimate Orange etc.

Given Jared's past, are you actually surprised at the FDA scrutiny? Is anybody surprised?

Do elaborate good sir.

Why are so many people down playing the liver issue? How does that not concern you? They knew it could cause issues, used it anyways. Then when people got sick they allegedly provided false press releases and tried to sell off remaining inventory.

I agree 100%. It is absolutely ****ing disgusting

Especially when the emails go back over 5 yrs. Who knows what else they have on them.
What I don't understand is why they would be "laundering" over 200 million dollars

Sounds like shady criminals just doing criminal sheet imo.

 

[The1WhoKnocks]

which makes them seem like the typical shady supp company from the 90s ie. Ultimate Orange etc.

Care to elaborate on Ultimate Orange/Next Nutrition? Obviously I know Duchaine was batty, but I never heard anything about this being a shady product.

 

[dave39]

Looks like bb dot com has stopped supplying USP products for now

 

[rtmilburn]

Looks like bb dot com has stopped supplying USP products for now

Lol bb.com doesn't sell anything close to shady anymore because they have been sued sooooo many times so that doesn't surprise me that they stop selling usplabs

 

[carmaf]

Care to elaborate on Ultimate Orange/Next Nutrition? Obviously I know Duchaine was batty, but I never heard anything about this being a shady product.

I just used that as an example of a product from that 90s that apparently worked, but you didn't really know how much of anything was in it, or what was REALLY in it. There were no thoughts about safety or compliance or anything like that. The supp industry is still very shady but back in the day it was the wild west. USPLabs reminds me of that.

 

[BlockBuilder]

I like how USPLabs has a government allegations statement on their website

 

[Justlooking5]

From back in the day I remember Ultimate Orange was rumored to have some kind of "extra" ingredient in the early formulations, I think it may have even been gear. I remember taking it in the early 2000s

 

[De__eB]

A bold statement indeed:

On November 17, 2015, the government announced charges against USPlabs and its owners relating to dietary supplements sold in the past. None of the allegations relates to any of the Company’s current formulations of any of its products. The Company stands firmly behind the safety and integrity of its products. The announced charges have done nothing to change that.


Regarding the government’s allegations, the Company and its owners vehemently deny that the Company ever attempted to defraud its retail customers or consumers, sold any unsafe products, or engaged in any wrongdoing.They expect to be fully vindicated and look forward to their day in court.

It's hard to reconcile this statement with the indictment unless some of the quotes in the indictment are just entirely fabricated which seems unlikely.

 

[BeardedBreast]

From back in the day I remember Ultimate Orange was rumored to have some kind of "extra" ingredient in the early formulations, I think it may have even been gear. I remember taking it in the early 2000s

It was the best pre-workout ever made. The original formula was unbelievable

 

[carmaf]

A bold statement indeed:



It's hard to reconcile this statement with the indictment unless some of the quotes in the indictment are just entirely fabricated which seems unlikely.

I can only imagine the content of the full emails. I also doubt the DoJ would embarrass themselves like this without solid proof.

In regards to Ultimate Orange: it was well before my time but things like that, Hot Stuff, Ripped Fuel etc. are the stuff of legends. Seems like USPLabs has been learning their formula for "innovation" from those products, and hopefully this indictment will leave those shady supp practices in the past.

 

[kboxer7]

So who's ready to stock up on the USPlabs clearance sale?

I kid....kind of lol ; )

 

[carmaf]

So who's ready to stock up on the USPlabs clearance sale?

I kid....kind of lol ; )

https://blog.priceplow.com/industry-news/usplabs-doj-indictment/business-as-usual

they are being rather nonchalant about all this

 

[kboxer7]

https://blog.priceplow.com/industry-news/usplabs-doj-indictment/business-as-usual

they are being rather nonchalant about all this

Even if all leaders go to jail it's possible the company will survive.

Additionally, they'll need to continue business as usual in order to keep cash coming in for legal fees, potential fines, and to live up to contractural obligations.

Remember, these things can drag out for years and years.

However, most likely they will cut a deal within the next two years. And the sweeter they can make that deal (I.e large gov fine + something like setting up a fund for victims, etc), the less sentence they are likely to get.

The above is all speculation though.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Brave souls if you take USPL products after reading that indictment (particularly the email quotes - it appears DoJ has 7 years of email). You have no idea what's in there, and even if that's prop blend BS 'normal', you now have quotes from the company proving that "extracts" may not be, could be chemicals in there, ineffective amounts, etc... How much better do think any of this stuff is, compared to the other 78,000 supplements out there? Worth your health at worst, or your money for grass clippings at best?

Looks like Korea had a problem with Cynanchum Auriculatum, and it's in the FDA Poison Plant Database for Pig Abortions:

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/Plantox/Detail.CFM?ID=11513

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20150430001107

http://english.kca.go.kr/brd/m_11/view.do?seq=278

http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/Article.aspx?aid=3004650

 

[jp_x_type]

couldnt agree more with what the old guy said.

which makes me wonder whether other companies might be doing what usplabs did. i mean, usplabs was one of the leading brands. if they did it, god only knows what smaller brands MIGHT be doing. more reason to always stick to trusted brands i guess...
for sure this will make me more selective with regards to brands...

 

[BCseacow83]

couldnt agree more with what the old guy said.

which makes me wonder whether other companies might be doing what usplabs did. i mean, usplabs was one of the leading brands. if they did it, god only knows what smaller brands MIGHT be doing. more reason to always stick to trusted brands i guess...
for sure this will make me more selective with regards to brands...

Enron was one of the big boys and just because they were a turd does not = all companies in the same business are using the same practices.

 

[JudoJosh]

De__eB

I have been away from the forums for a while now, but last I remember RE: OEP -> Liver failure, wasn't the defense that the cases were localized to just Hawaii and as a result there was suspicion that these bottles were counterfeit and not actually OEP. Did this not pan out?

 

[carmaf]

Brave souls if you take USPL products after reading that indictment (particularly the email quotes - it appears DoJ has 7 years of email). You have no idea what's in there, and even if that's prop blend BS 'normal', you now have quotes from the company proving that "extracts" may not be, could be chemicals in there, ineffective amounts, etc... How much better do think any of this stuff is, compared to the other 78,000 supplements out there? Worth your health at worst, or your money for grass clippings at best?

Looks like Korea had a problem with Cynanchum Auriculatum, and it's in the FDA Poison Plant Database for Pig Abortions:

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/Plantox/Detail.CFM?ID=11513

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20150430001107

http://english.kca.go.kr/brd/m_11/view.do?seq=278

http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/Article.aspx?aid=3004650

This is crazy. Some people just don't care. I understand supporting trusted companies who make products you enjoy, but why support them if they break that trust....repeatedly? Hahaha some people act as if their dad owns the company with their blind loyalty.

 

[jp_x_type]

Enron was one of the big boys and just because they were a turd does not = all companies in the same business are using the same practices.

of course. and i did not come to that conclusion in my head either. BUT allow me to start asking questions to myself. i mean, im already one big paranoid mfer by nature anyway LOL
seriously though, the average joe will start asking questions...
this doesnt hurt usplabs only, but the whole industry

 

[The_Old_Guy]

This is crazy. Some people just don't care. I understand supporting trusted companies who make products you enjoy, but why support them if they break that trust....repeatedly? Hahaha some people act as if their dad owns the company with their blind loyalty.

Agree... BUT to be fair (yes, I am LOL!) Wait until something is proven in court or they plead out with some admission statement. Gov't indictments are uber best case scenario situations. They just need a True Bill from a Grand Jury with no opposing evidence presented. THEY DON'T LIE, as they must have some (what they believe is) evidence to withstand discovery and rules of evidence, but have in the past TOTALLY GONE OFF THE CHAIN in regards to prosecution - look up Thomas Drake.

But like De__eb said, they have actual email communication - hard to dispute "Send chemicals, don't label them, mark the box as coffee"

 

[Woody]

Enron was one of the big boys and just because they were a turd does not = all companies in the same business are using the same practices.

After Enron, other companies were caught or went bankrupt for the same practices.

 

[Tiocfaidh]

After Enron, other companies were caught or went bankrupt for the same practices.

not really. a token few. others just turned around and fueled the housing bubble with the same type of fraud. actually worse.

 

[Woody]

Agree... BUT to be fair (yes, I am LOL!) Wait until something is proven in court or they plead out with some admission statement. Gov't indictments are uber best case scenario situations. They just need a True Bill from a Grand Jury with no opposing evidence presented. THEY DON'T LIE, as they must have some (what they believe is) evidence to withstand discovery and rules of evidence, but have in the past TOTALLY GONE OFF THE CHAIN in regards to prosecution - look up Thomas Drake.

But like De__eb said, they have actual email communication - hard to dispute "Send chemicals, don't label them, mark the box as coffee"

Regarding the label as coffee 1, 2, 3... I wonder if there is more to the context, whether good or bad. Just seems... Odd.

The fake COA without context speaks for itself. Of course, context could change things. But that seems unlikely.