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DOJ to announce actions against dietary supplements makers

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gateway88 said:
i believe the lot numbers were confirmed and acknowledged by the fda on the last case. i think the other cases naproxen was found as the culprit as stated here. either way, they're ****ed for all the other stuff.

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I just got back to this. This appears to be just one patient, correct? It was also paid for by USP Labs' retained law firm Covington & Burling.

I think the liver thing is being overlooked on here. Going by memory, since I've read a ton of different web pages, there were something like 97 cases of liver problems that presented during the time frame in question. Obviously, regular people have liver problems every day, so they weren't *all* from Aegeline/Cynanchum Auriculatum ingestion. But IIRC, the analysis of all cases showed connection to USPL products in 72 of them, with 56 being "the only thing I took is OxyElite Pro". In that 56, there was one death and one transplant. Looking through the Hawaiian papers, there was later info that Pacific Islander genetics may have been an unlucky dice roll when it came to the ingredients.

If no one died or needed a transplant, I bet we wouldn't be talking about this today. Trying to move the stuff via telephone sure didn't help either.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I just got back to this. This appears to be just one patient, correct? It was also paid for by USP Labs' retained law firm Covington & Burling.

I think the liver thing is being overlooked on here. Going by memory, since I've read a ton of different web pages, there were something like 97 cases of liver problems that presented during the time frame in question. Obviously, regular people have liver problems every day, so they weren't *all* from Aegeline/Cynanchum Auriculatum ingestion. But IIRC, the analysis of all cases showed connection to USPL products in 72 of them, with 56 being "the only thing I took is OxyElite Pro". In that 56, there was one death and one transplant. Looking through the Hawaiian papers, there was later info that Pacific Islander genetics may have been an unlucky dice roll when it came to the ingredients.

If no one died or needed a transplant, I bet we wouldn't be talking about this today. Trying to move the stuff via telephone sure didn't help either.
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no. the case last year stated they took oxyelite pro and the batches were confirmed to be fake. labels were fake. but the fda still put out a press releases stating it was usplabs product.

the study was about a case in 2013 i believe when they said it was ageline. odd that no cases came up about pes though and they had the exact ingredient.

covington just hired former fda chief of staff. i doubt they are into the business of faking studies. funny eric holders pic comes up when you load the site.

lol. he's partner!

Eric H. Holder, Jr.
Partner
 
gateway88 said:
thats been confirmed but its not unusual at all. mike mccandless was talking about it on bb.com and how sk has done this for many companies and reportedly a very very large one. don't have a name though.
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if a company buys raws from another company being given a false COA then I think that company has 'plausible deniability'....but the company's who were caught with emails making them aware of questionable raws and then faking COA's are the ones who I hold most responsible...however I think it has come down to every company being responsible for their raws by testing them for themselves, trust has been thrown under the bus!!!!

it really pisses me off that some greedy companies are going to ruin it for everyone..... just like life, a few ruin it for the many!!!!

greed is a powerful thing!!!!
 
gateway88 said:
no. the case last year stated they took oxyelite pro and the batches were confirmed to be fake. labels were fake. but the fda still put out a press releases stating it was usplabs product.

the study was about a case in 2013 i believe when they said it was ageline. odd that no cases came up about pes though and they had the exact ingredient.

covington just hired former fda chief of staff. i doubt they are into the business of faking studies. funny eric holders pic comes up when you load the site.

lol. he's partner!

Eric H. Holder, Jr.
Partner
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Who confirmed them to be fake?
 
thebigt said:
if a company buys raws from another company being given a false COA then I think that company has 'plausible deniability'....but the company's who were caught with emails making them aware of questionable raws and then faking COA's are the ones who I hold most responsible...however I think it has come down to every company being responsible for their raws by testing them for themselves, trust has been thrown under the bus!!!!

it really pisses me off that some greedy companies are going to ruin it for everyone..... just like life, a few ruin it for the many!!!!

greed is a powerful thing!!!!
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this was my thinking as to why they didn't get arrested. If company X bought or shared raws with USP during this time period, that doesn't mean they knowingly and intentionally were part of the fake COA and everything. They could have gotten duped just like the consumers. But hey who cares right? Lolz
 
Woody said:
this was my thinking as to why they didn't get arrested. If company X bought or shared raws with USP during this time period, that doesn't mean they knowingly and intentionally were part of the fake COA and everything. They could have gotten duped just like the consumers. But hey who cares right? Lolz
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right. who cares.
 
gateway88 said:
no. the case last year stated they took oxyelite pro and the batches were confirmed to be fake. labels were fake. but the fda still put out a press releases stating it was usplabs product.

the study was about a case in 2013 i believe when they said it was ageline. odd that no cases came up about pes though and they had the exact ingredient.

covington just hired former fda chief of staff. i doubt they are into the business of faking studies. funny eric holders pic comes up when you load the site.

lol. he's partner!

Eric H. Holder, Jr.
Partner
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The only counterfeit claim I've come across was in relation to the Prozac instance, nothing for liver. 1 case where the cause wasn't Aegeline/Cynanchum is all well and good, but 71 more cases makes it hard to believe they were all Naproxin - plus, they wouldn't be using that as evidence in the indictment if it was proven it was all AleveTM
 
I have liver issues, had them for some time now. I get bloods drawn frequently to check liver values. at 1st I was really pissed, usplabs had sent me 2 bottles of versa1 to run, then later 2 bottles of ultimate-t to run...plus in the past I have ran virtually every product in usplabs lineup.....I went to myhealthevet VA website and checked my results for the time periods where I would have ran both versa 1 and ultimate-t....in all honesty there was very little change....

I am not defending usplabs, just throwing some personal facts into the mix.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
The only counterfeit claim I've come across was in relation to the Prozac instance, nothing for liver. 1 case where the cause wasn't Aegeline/Cynanchum is all well and good, but 71 more cases makes it hard to believe they were all Naproxin - plus, they wouldn't be using that as evidence in the indictment if it was proven it was all AleveTM
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i didn't say they were all naproxen. what was said by many people is that ageline is not liver toxic, and that the bottles found locally in hawaii were not legit and there are instances where that was true.

there are instance on youtube of showing fake oxyelite and jack3d as well.
 
gateway88 said:
i didn't say they were all naproxen. what was said by many people is that ageline is not liver toxic, and that the bottles found locally in hawaii were not legit and there are instances where that was true.

there are instance on youtube of showing fake oxyelite and jack3d as well.
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I wonder if everyone purchased the products from the same vendor. Like an eBay seller.
 
T-Bone said:
I know someone who still has Mommy pay the bills so he spends an ass load on supplements!
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Are they taking applications for another brother? I need my bills paid. Do you think they'd pay the interest on my student loans? And pay my tuition too? Oh boy it's a Christmas miracle!
 
Woody said:
Are they taking applications for another brother? I need my bills paid. Do you think they'd pay the interest on my student loans? And pay my tuition too? Oh boy it's a Christmas miracle!
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uncle sam?
 
gateway88 said:
i didn't say they were all naproxen. what was said by many people is that ageline is not liver toxic, and that the bottles found locally in hawaii were not legit and there are instances where that was true.

there are instance on youtube of showing fake oxyelite and jack3d as well.
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The liver outbreak occurred after Cynanchum Auriculatum was added to the product from what is in the indictment time-line.

Proprietary Blend

Cynanchum auricalatum (root) extract, olea europaea (leaf) extract (standrized for oleuropein), aegeline, yohimbe (pausintalia johimbe) (bark) extract (standardized for full spectrum alkaloids), Coleus forskolii (root) extract (95% forskolin)
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The only thing I can find on "counterfeit" in Hawaii (contrary to the Prozac - ton's of stuff on that) is from a USPL Statement and one fitness enthusiast that was interviewed by a paper talking about the texture of an opened capsule. I've been on Google for over an hour, and can't find any confirmation from 2nd (Gov) or 3rd (anyone else not tied to USPL other than the fitness girl?) party that that all/most/some of the liver problems were because of counterfeit products.

There was also information that tracing back all the purchase points, showed the bottles came from both different Online and Brick & Mortar sources. That would be amazing coincidence that they were all/most counterfeit - especially since some cases were on the mainland too. Another coincidence would be that the counterfeits were using an ingredient that caused liver problems, but the "real" product using an ingredient known to cause an almost 100% abortion rate in pigs (Cynanchum), didn't.

Ah well, dead horse and all that. We'll see what gets proven in court, as I and everyone else, are just speculating (except for the qouted emails).
 
The_Old_Guy said:
The liver outbreak occurred after Cynanchum Auriculatum was added to the product from what is in the indictment time-line.
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i'm not going by the indictment timeline. i remember it when it happened.


The only thing I can find on "counterfeit" in Hawaii (contrary to the Prozac - ton's of stuff on that) is from a USPL Statement and one fitness enthusiast that was interviewed by a paper talking about the texture of an opened capsule. I've been on Google for over an hour, and can't find any confirmation from 2nd (Gov) or 3rd (anyone else not tied to USPL other than the fitness girl?) party that that all/most/some of the liver problems were because of counterfeit products.
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there are people on youtube as well as many blogs that show the counterfeits from various foreign countries. they show the powder and labels being different. this is for both oxyelite and jack3d. many are in spanish.

There was also information that tracing back all the purchase points, showed the bottles came from both different Online and Brick & Mortar sources. That would be amazing coincidence that they were all/most counterfeit - especially since some cases were on the mainland too. Another coincidence would be that the counterfeits were using an ingredient that caused liver problems, but the "real" product using an ingredient known to cause an almost 100% abortion rate in pigs (Cynanchum), didn't.
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this is been talked about at depth before at the time it happened. the conclusion was that the ingredient was not liver toxic at all. the fact that pes used the same exact ingredient for years and not one case was ever mentioned is odd. fda says usplabs has ingredient that causes liver damage. they include it in their indictment. pes has the same ingredient. no cases of liver damage with their product is found. they are not even mentioned.

Ah well, dead horse and all that. We'll see what gets proven in court, as I and everyone else, are just speculating (except for the qouted emails).
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everyone knew there were fakes. they were all over ebay and amazon.
 
PES never used Cynanchum Auriculatum as far as I know.
 
gateway88 said:
i was talking about aegeline which the fda said was the "causal connection" of the original liver issues from 2013.
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We know now Cynanchum Auriculatum is the issue so who cares about that. Also USP could have easily made those posts about the "counterfeits" as damage control, still not an official source.

I don't know why you keep bringing up counterfeits when there are emails about them discussing liver toxicity....and liver toxicity then occurred. What do counterfeits have to do with them KNOWINGLY putting in a dangerous ingredient into the product?
 
carmaf said:
We know now Cynanchum Auriculatum is the issue so who cares about that. Also USP could have easily made those posts about the "counterfeits" as damage control, still not an official source.
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we care because that is what the fda said caused the original issue. so they uploaded dozens of videos in spanish for damage control? i hope you are joking. if they committed criminal activities, send them to prison but my posts have never been about that. they simply are exploring what the real cause of the liver issues are and that story seems to change every 6 months. ask pes if they care when they are forced to recall a product because the fda believed it was aegeline. but now thats wrong?

I don't know why you keep bringing up counterfeits when there are emails about them discussing liver toxicity....and liver toxicity then occurred. What do counterfeits have to do with them KNOWINGLY putting in a dangerous ingredient into the product?
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you do understand that both can happen? it sold 400 million dollars of the supplement and you don't think people in asia and south america are pumping fakes with who knows what in them. you seem to think everything comes down to one possibility and that counterfeits and tainted supps can't harm you.

the story changes about what cause the injuries. thats what i'm talking about. if you don't care about that, don't post then.
 
So the FDA, who didn't have access to these emails most probably bc the DoJ was still building the case, got the ingredient wrong, and this means what in the end? It has no bearing on the emails, and won't save USPLabs. If it was the DoJ saying it was Aegeline then we would be having a different conversation.

You are going off on tangents about red herrings, plain and simple.
 
I'm also sure a company that launders 100s of millions of dollars illegally can also hire people to make Spanish videos talking about fakes. Probably didn't, but they easily could. Spanish Youtube videos are not an official source.
 
carmaf said:
So the FDA, who didn't have access to these emails most probably bc the DoJ was still building the case, got the ingredient wrong, and this means what in the end? It has no bearing on the emails, and won't save USPLabs. If it was the DoJ saying it was Aegeline then we would be having a different conversation.

You are going off on tangents about red herrings, plain and simple.
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the fda found the emails. they are the ones who raided them, several times. you might want to get the timeline correct first before you start telling everyone else what they should or should not question.
 
carmaf said:
I'm also sure a company that launders 100s of millions of dollars illegally can also hire people to make Spanish videos talking about fakes. Probably didn't, but they easily could. Spanish Youtube videos are not an official source.
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you might want to read the indictment. the wire fraud and money laundering are charges added on simply because they were actions taken after they lied on their import docs.

you criticize me for simply wondering why the story changes yet you come at me with usplabs hiring spanish people to make fake videos. and I'm the one going off on tangents.
 
gateway88 said:
the fda found the emails. they are the ones who raided them, several times. you might want to get the timeline correct first before you start telling everyone else what they should or should not question.
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I'm not going to argue about this all day but you are confused. This thread is about the DoJ indictments in 2015 and what they contain/their implications, not what the FDA did in 2013 or whenever. There are old threads about the Aegeline stuff.

You are arguing about an incident in the past using only past information, completely disregarding what is happening now. I am arguing about emails that shed a new light on an incident that OCCURED in the past, but can now possibly be explained in the present with new information.

As far as the DoJ is concerned, the story hasn't changed. Maybe the FDA changed the story, it still doesn't affect the DoJ indictment.
 
carmaf said:
I'm not going to argue about this all day but you are confused. This thread is about the DoJ indictments in 2015 and what they contain/their implications, not what the FDA did in 2013 or whenever. There are old threads about the Aegeline stuff.
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the doj case in 2015 is about issues from 2009-2013. the information the doj is using to charge usp came from the FDA!!!!!! FDA handed over evidence to the doj! you don't seem to get that basic fact.

You are arguing about an incident in the past using only past information, completely disregarding what is happening now. I am arguing about emails that shed a new light on an incident that OCCURED in the past, but can now possibly be explained in the present with new information.

As far as the DoJ is concerned, the story hasn't changed. Maybe the FDA changed the story, it still doesn't affect the DoJ indictment.
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the source of the information for the case came from the FDA!!!!!!!!!! the case is about what they did for 2008-2013 and in 2013 the fda said it was aegeline!!!! its relevant!!!!
 
The DoJ is not claiming it is Aegeline, and the emails are not claiming it is Aegeline....which is all that matters. You can go necro one of the Aegeline threads if you want to keep discussing Aegeline. "Hey guys we are poisoning people, but not with the ingredient they are claiming, so we are in the clear."

Where does it say these emails came only from the FDA? With the Snowden revelations we now know that obtaining emails is no big deal.

The DoJ case is concerning past events but has brought to light so much new information it has changed the discussion completely, hence the thread about this new information. We once thought it was Aegeline, but we now know different, bc we have more pieces of the puzzle.
 
How it went, according to a legal document:

OEP w/DMAA - Great (Best) Seller. DMAA comes under fire. DMAA pulled out and Aegeline put in for 2012. Disappointing sales of Aegeline only OEP. Reformulated with the addition of Cynanchum Auriculatum for 2013. Liver outbreak occurs in 2013.

I won't call Aegeline a Red Herring, but we really need to get off that despite whatever any agency said, and look at the Cynanchum, IMO.
 
carmaf said:
The DoJ is not claiming it is Aegeline, and the emails are not claiming it is Aegeline....which is all that matters. You can go necro one of the Aegeline threads if you want to keep discussing Aegeline. "Hey guys we are poisoning people, but not with the ingredient they are claiming, so we are in the clear."

Where does it say these emails came only from the FDA? With the Snowden revelations we now know that obtaining emails is no big deal.

The DoJ case is concerning past events but has brought to light so much new information it has changed the discussion completely, hence the thread about this new information. We once thought it was Aegeline, but we now know different, bc we have more pieces of the puzzle.
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you can't be this clueless over how this works and expect to argue your point.

the fda raided usp several times. the doj did not raid usp labs. for the doj to even come into the case, they need evidence. for the doj to have evidence they would have to be given emails from the fda raid. for the fda to even contact the doj about criminal activity, they would have to READ THE EMAILS FIRST. the emails are from BEFORE 2013!!!!

if you are going to tell someone else they are confused then at least know wtf you are talking about first.
 
I'm saying you are confused about Aegeline. Just bc the FDA got it wrong before, it doesn't discredit what is being said now, especially not with a more complete picture being revealed.
 
carmaf said:
I'm saying you are confused about Aegeline. Just bc the FDA got it wrong before, it doesn't discredit what is being said now, especially not with a more complete picture being revealed.
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no, i'm not confused. you are thoroughly confused. the investigation is for activities up to 2013. the emails the fda read are from 2008-2013. if the emails indicate its something else, why did the fda release press releases stating it was aegeline as late as 2014. so they raided usp. found emails about cynanchum auriculatum and being liver toxic, then proceeded to state from 2013-2014 it was aegeline. and if its cynanchum curiculatum, where are the press releases about that ingredient being toxic?
 
The_Old_Guy said:
How it went, according to a legal document:

OEP w/DMAA - Great (Best) Seller. DMAA comes under fire. DMAA pulled out and Aegeline put in for 2012. Disappointing sales of Aegeline only OEP. Reformulated with the addition of Cynanchum Auriculatum for 2013. Liver outbreak occurs in 2013.

I won't call Aegeline a Red Herring, but we really need to get off that despite whatever any agency said, and look at the Cynanchum, IMO.
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problem there is when the products were examined, the common denominator was oxyelite with aegeline or they would never put out multiple press releases and forced pes to recall their products.
 
I don't think an FDA Form 482 AIW (Administrative Inspection Warrant) is legally allowed to obtain a lot of what was in those emails - pursuant to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDC). I'd think it was a Criminal Search Warrant, which would have required US Marshals, DEA, FBI, etc... Who knows when that was executed? Then, with the information gained from that, a case is put together for a Grand Jury, and then an indictment is obtained and arrests are made, with further evidence obtained for trial.
 
We don't know when they got the information that it wasn't Aegeline. Perhaps when they read those emails is when they realized they can take these guys down for good, so why bother with a press release? This indictment is your "press release". There you go.

You are arguing the minutiae and I'm arguing the big picture. The end result has nothing to do with Aegeline, it has to do with Cynanchum Auriculatum.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I don't think an FDA Form 482 AIW (Administrative Inspection Warrant) is legally allowed to obtain a lot of what was in those emails - pursuant to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDC). I'd think it was a Criminal Search Warrant, which would have required US Marshals, DEA, FBI, etc... Who knows when that was executed? Then, with the information gained from that, a case is put together for a Grand Jury, and then an indictment is obtained and arrests are made, with further evidence obtained for trial.
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the only time that multiple organizations raided usp was last tuesday. up until that point, it was all fda. all the raids were public and had press releases.
 
carmaf said:
We don't know when they got the information that it wasn't Aegeline. Perhaps when they read those emails is when they realized they can take these guys down for good, so why bother with a press release? This indictment is your "press release". There you go.

You are arguing the minutiae and I'm arguing the big picture. The end result has nothing to do with Aegeline, it has to do with Cynanchum Auriculatum.
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and how do you know that? by believing the same organization that said it was aegeline for the last 2 years? jesus you're clueless.
 
I think this one has run its course. If any new information arises we will clean it up and procede.
 
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