First Cycle
- Thread starter Dvill23
- Start date
Driven2lift
Legend
Likely looking at Epi or Halo for 6 weeks but before we get too far here what are your stats?
Age, height, weight, training level. BF%
You will want to research your compound to know what supports and PCT you are looking for. As was said though I tend to recommend Epi for a first run
Invalid Link Removed
Age, height, weight, training level. BF%
You will want to research your compound to know what supports and PCT you are looking for. As was said though I tend to recommend Epi for a first run
Invalid Link Removed
reps4jesus
Well-known member
No cycling till u loose some bf. high bf leads to side effects. You should be able to hit %14 easy. If you can't then your diet is off and will lead to a lot of fat gain on cycle and especially in pct.
g0hardorgohom
Well-known member
18% BF is not that high.
I agree with others, 6 weeker with Epi is perfect for first timer.
Check out EP15TANE Perfect Cycle stack from nutri-verse.com - it has everything you'll need (Epi, cycle support product with TUDCA, all-in-one PCT product) except a SERM like Nolva or Clomid.
I agree with others, 6 weeker with Epi is perfect for first timer.
Check out EP15TANE Perfect Cycle stack from nutri-verse.com - it has everything you'll need (Epi, cycle support product with TUDCA, all-in-one PCT product) except a SERM like Nolva or Clomid.
timper
Member
I would agree that his bf is on the high side for cycling but I'd say a compound like epistane wouldn't have escalated sides since high bf usually is related to estrogenic sides. It would work better with a lower bf but at the same time it's a compound that will get you to that lower bf with proper diet and training. I cannot push enough. PROPER DIET AND TRAINING. So eat clean and lift hard.
Shaun235
Banned
^^ I'd have to agree. I've ran cycles with higher bf% with no issues. But on my most recent got gyno from a mild run.
I'd drop a little bf before running one just to be safe. Or take extra measures to avoid the sides.
Dvill23
New member
I'll probably keep at cutting the body fat for another month then take it from there. I've gone from 250 march 2013 to 190 November 2013 and have stayed steady packing on more muscle and losing body fat so the diet shouldn't be a problem. EP15TANE Stack how would you guys run it? I'm getting a nolva for pct what dosage and should I add AI like formeron?
g0hardorgohom
Well-known member
Cycle and supports:
- EP15TANE 30/45/45/45/45/45
- AR1MACARE PRO 4/4/4/4/4/4 (you'd need two bottles so one extra bottle on top of that EP15TANE Perfect Cycle stack - there will be leftover caps for your next cycle too)
PCT:
- Nolva 20/20/10/10
- SUP3R PCT 4/4/3/3/2/1
No need for Formeron. SUP3R PCT comes in EP15TANE Perfect Cycle and it has already an AI in it.
Dvill23
New member
Thanks looks complete unless anyone else has more criticisms/suggestions more than welcome.
Until I start on this I'm going to keep reading up around the forums.
I'm also taking my normal supplements that consist of white flood, green magnitude, purple wraath, & orange triad + greens that shouldn't interfere with anything I'm assuming. (Mainly the orange triad I'm wondering about since the rest shouldn't mess with anything)
Until I start on this I'm going to keep reading up around the forums.
I'm also taking my normal supplements that consist of white flood, green magnitude, purple wraath, & orange triad + greens that shouldn't interfere with anything I'm assuming. (Mainly the orange triad I'm wondering about since the rest shouldn't mess with anything)
mw1
Sponsor
Hdrol would be the best choice for your goals with Epi being second. Neither cycle needs an AI on cycle so go with CEL Cycle Assist with either SNS DAA or PCT ASsist.
Growth factor xt is a new GH product that would be a great addition to any cycle
EVERYONE that does enough cycles will eventually develop some form of gyno
stann123
Active member
my fault. I agreed with him on the cycle assist and daa. But hdrol was my first cycle and I though it was awesome, I bulked on it though. like other have said epi is more suited for you since your looking to cut some fat
Shaun235
Banned
I've read a few reviews where guys have actually like Halo over Epi for cutting.
I think it's pretty much just diet dependent.
Either of them should be good for your goals though.
stann123
Active member
Agree with everything you said. Also epi can be hit or miss
Shaun235
Banned
I'm already bald, so I don't have any advice for you on that subject. Although, I don't think it should be to much of a concern unless it's in your genetics.
Good Point.
kingjameskjf
Well-known member
Hdrol or Pmag are great first cycles. They work very well and are very low in sides in comparison. Epi is good too but I'd personally put it after those first two. I like to use CEL Cycle Assist while on or even SNS Liver Assist XT. PCT I like to add PCT Assist and DAA. I haven't tried SNS Growth Factor yet but I think this would be a great place to put it in. Oh and SERMs are great but not the only option. I've used OTC for all three of those compounds and had absolutely no issues. Doesn't mean you should take chances, just be observant and be prepared.
stann123
Active member
You can get by without a serm but I don't see a reason why you should risk it. Its only around $25, with otc products going alongside your serm, Daa, pct assist, etc.
kingjameskjf
Well-known member
Like I said, you don't need to take chances, such as having a SERM on hand, but there are many reasons to go the OTC route. OTC doesn't have the same endocrine interactions and associated side effects as do SERMs. Some people simply don't want to mess with the legalities of it either. Pharmacologically interactions are a concern for people especially if they are on any other kind of medications. Situational factors and personal preference should be taken into account. One route or method is not always ideal for all people.
stann123
Active member
Wasn't hating on what you said. You do have some good points that I agree with it. But if your willing to take phs and are okay with the possible side effects I don't see why serms should be a worry. I understand where you're coming from though
kingjameskjf
Well-known member
I know, I didn't mean to sound off defensive. I agree that SERMs are very effective and most certainly have their place. I'm just pointing out that they aren't the only effective option, as long as it is done smart and knowledgeably. PH's already make an impact on your body so sometimes it's nice to not add to the stress elicited by compounding pharmacological interventions. The amount of interaction and impact depends upon the compound(s) ran, the supports, timeframe, amount, interactions, and our individual physiology. It can also change over time. For example. I used to be able to take any PH oral without any problems and minimal sides. Now, certain orals will make me puke and poo my brains out. I know, lovely imagery!
Another consideration (this time for the more serious and lesser portion of the population) is in competing. In some organizations you can still use legal PH's and compete as a natural, as long as you don't take illicit or gray market items like SERMs or certain diuretics like thiazides. Options and education are great to have in determining what is right for you with the ability to tailor to your individual lifestyle, preferences, and needs.
timper
Member
Serms need to be a worry because without them your system won't be producing enough testosterone to maintain the gains you made. Also, bye bye testes and sperm production. So ya if you're good with taking steroids, being big for a month, losing all your gains and starting over with a messed up endocrine system that won't produce testosterone or sperm then by all means don't use a serm
stann123
Active member
Great post man. I wasn't aware there are still some shows that let you compete naturally even while on PH's. Out of curiosity what are the harshest compounds you've taken and followed it with an otc pct? and what does your pct look like?
kingjameskjf
Well-known member
So you're saying that unless I use a SERM that my endocrine system will be inept at recovering homeostasis and that I won't ever be able to utilize the increased muscle protein synthesis and be forever small? I guess I'm doing it all wrong. I would reinvestigate the incredible ability our body has in recovering homeostasis, even without any PCT. Yes, it's riskier and takes longer and has other potential effects but the ideology that you portrayed is not backed by clinical evidence.
kingjameskjf
Well-known member
I just think that too often we have the mind set that it's all or none, only black and white. The harshest PH I've used with OTC PCT was superdrol. This was also after I had done several other milder cycles and knew how my body responded and had SERM's on hand if I needed them. I love Torem and Exemestane, depending on what I'm doing. I actually hated SD due to the harsh side effects and nominal gains I had from it on cycle. However, it has been incredible for many others. One of my favorites was Pmag and I made and kept great gains with it. For OTC I like a good test booster like DAA. CEL PCT Assist and Formestane are a favorite combo of mine that always worked well. There are other good combos out there too. I'm not as up to date with the newer stuff as I haven't cycled in over a year.
timper
Member
My main point was that it would take a longgg time for your body to fully recover to homeostasis. And by the time it is almost done without a proper pct a lot of people are jumping back on another cycle. I never said it wouldn't ever go back to normal. I meant to insinuate starting another cycle over. So your body wouldn't recover
kingjameskjf
Well-known member
Yes I agree that it can take longer to recover. However, it's a balance of risk vs reward. What are you willing to sacrifice to obtain your end goal? Is there a better way to do it? Is there a safer way to do it for you individually? Is there a way to do it both effectively and safely to ensure positive results while minimizing adverse effects? These are the questions we need to ask ourselves and then determine what is appropriate for what we want. I don't mind a 6 week PCT when it's coupled with less pharmacological side effects, depending on the strength and severity of the compound being used as well as the length of time used. The moral is, there are effective alternatives to SERMs while realizing that they still most certainly have their place. One SERM doesn't fit all needs for all people. We are dynamic with different goals, though the attainment of LBM and retention are the key end game. I'm certainly not ascribing to the OTC for all and everything philosophy, but neither am I overlooking their value.
Dvill23
New member
Do I need the cycle assist & daa if I'm buying the EPI5STANE stack mentioned earlier?
00S4Boy
Active member
King James do you even comprehend what a serm is or does?
It's not some crazy chemical, it's a estrogen substitute. Your body has estrogen, serm's simply bind selectivly to the estrogen receptor of the tissues they are designed to and agonize or antagonize it. In the case of Clomifene being that it is a fertility drug, it is an agonist of the hypothalamus causing an increased release of LH which then goes to the leydig cells of the testes and causes them to make testosterone. Nolva is an antagonist at the breast tissue so it binds to it, doesn't cause it to grow and prevents estrogen from binding to it, while not as effectively as clomifene rebooting test production but saving us from out greatest fear gyno.
Estrogen is an antagonist of the hypothalamus which reduced release of LH. So if you just come off of synthetic non aromatizing androgens, your body starts to produce testosterone, that testosterone gets bombarded by a horde of aromatase enzyme turns into estrogen which inturn binds to the hypothalamus antagonizing it causing less of a LH release, causing less testosterone production, until the point where all the the aromatase enzyme is metabolized out then you slowly increase test levels.
Or you could just do the smart thing and run a serm.
It's not some crazy chemical, it's a estrogen substitute. Your body has estrogen, serm's simply bind selectivly to the estrogen receptor of the tissues they are designed to and agonize or antagonize it. In the case of Clomifene being that it is a fertility drug, it is an agonist of the hypothalamus causing an increased release of LH which then goes to the leydig cells of the testes and causes them to make testosterone. Nolva is an antagonist at the breast tissue so it binds to it, doesn't cause it to grow and prevents estrogen from binding to it, while not as effectively as clomifene rebooting test production but saving us from out greatest fear gyno.
Estrogen is an antagonist of the hypothalamus which reduced release of LH. So if you just come off of synthetic non aromatizing androgens, your body starts to produce testosterone, that testosterone gets bombarded by a horde of aromatase enzyme turns into estrogen which inturn binds to the hypothalamus antagonizing it causing less of a LH release, causing less testosterone production, until the point where all the the aromatase enzyme is metabolized out then you slowly increase test levels.
Or you could just do the smart thing and run a serm.
kingjameskjf
Well-known member
Do some research into pharmacology, drug interactions, and MOA and potential sides each has. Anytime you introduce a chemical into your body, you have the potential for adverse effects. Doesn't mean it will happen but you need to be aware that it can happen. Just because you like it doesn't mean it won't happen to you. It's all a balance of risk versus reward. Obviously they are not all on the same level as to how much of an impact it'll have on the body, the endocrine system, homeostasis, and negative feedback loops. For example, Prednisone has horrid side affects that can be very dangerous but it's still prescribed according to need. Before you get all crazy, SERMs are not on that level, just an example. The key to note is that you can't just focus on the positives and be blind to the negatives. When comparing a prescription chemical to a natural herbal extract, it is obvious which one holds the potential for much less side effects. Now go reread my posts. I never said SERMs don't have their place. But it also doesn't mean it should be thrown around and abused with every single thing. If there's a safer and still effective way to do something then isn't that worth consideration?