Protein Shake vs FOOD Source

[jbryand101b]

Now now, let's keep the logical discussion at a minimum meaning, none

 

[JudoJosh]

okay, what about bronchial response to allergens in general?
also ---> and then that leads me to..
Invalid Link Removed
questioning validity of markers used

studies..not the end-all/be-all for me
certainly interesting, and a basis to form discussion

While CRP is not reflective to BHR as your link points out, this still doesnt really say much.

How about we make your claim clear. If I'm not mistaken your claim is that dairy consumption leads to systemic inflammation which leads to negative effects on health. Is that correct?

Now as far as I know milk has no positive corelations with increased CRP (which unlike BHR is a marker of health) and intact there exist an inverse relationship between milk consumption and health. BHR is specific to those with asthma.

However, there does exist a theory that for those with an existing milk allergy, the consumption of milk may lead to increased BHR (asthma) but the research isn't really too conclusive as it is limited.

But we do have -

Invalid Link Removed - The researchers conclude that early exposure to cows milk was associated with less BHR

But as a said earlier the research is limited here but it isn't much of a stretch to say that one with a milk allergy should avoid milk and there might be the potential of increases chances of developing asthma.

That said, your previous statements implied a broad implication across all populations to avoid milk
Or am I misreading?



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[snagencyV2.0]

as goofy as it sounds if you take it out of context and plant it somewhere:
i will NEVER rely on science to shape and lead my direction
srs
and i don't peretend to understand what some of these studies delve into, or technical terms
i don't care - i have seen far too many studies spewed, with glaring faulty parameters in which they were constructed from the beginning..
with hidden agendas..
questionable "backgrounds" of ppl performing or funding them..

you could tailor practically any study to fit the conclusion you wish it to arrive at, if you are creative enuff

and then - there's the always the application in which these things are applied, and the conflicting results one study will have versus another

nah
science is cool, nice reference but -
the body is not a textbook!



(waiting for the uproar on that stance lulz................)

 

[jimbuick]

as goofy as it sounds if you take it out of context and plant it somewhere:
i will NEVER rely on science to shape and lead my direction
srs
and i don't peretend to understand what some of these studies delve into, or technical terms
i don't care - i have seen far too many studies spewed, with glaring faulty parameters in which they were constructed from the beginning..
with hidden agendas..
questionable "backgrounds" of ppl performing or funding them..

you could tailor practically any study to fit the conclusion you wish it to arrive at, if you are creative enuff

and then - there's the always the application in which these things are applied, and the conflicting results one study will have versus another

nah
science is cool, nice reference but -
the body is not a textbook!

(waiting for the uproar on that stance lulz................)

So why offer the opportunity for discussion?

 

[snagencyV2.0]

While CRP is not reflective to BHR as your link points out, this still doesnt really say much.

How about we make your claim clear. If I'm not mistaken your claim is that dairy consumption leads to systemic inflammation which leads to negative effects on health. Is that correct?

correct, would of course be contributing factor to such

Now as far as I know milk has no positive corelations with increased CRP (which unlike BHR is a marker of health) and intact there exist an inverse relationship between milk consumption and health. BHR is specific to those with asthma.

yes i know

However, there does exist a theory that for those with an existing milk allergy, the consumption of milk may lead to increased BHR (asthma) but the research isn't really too conclusive as it is limited.

But we do have -

Invalid Link Removed - The researchers conclude that early exposure to cows milk was associated with less BHR

But as a said earlier the research is limited here but it isn't much of a stretch to say that one with a milk allergy should avoid milk and there might be the potential of increases chances of developing asthma.

okay i'm with ya so far..

That said, your previous statements implied a broad implication across all populations to avoid milk
Or am I misreading?

nope, you got it - this is my opinion (but i am by no means alone with this .02)
milk, soy..oh i could go on

i feel there are a broad range of issues, that scientific study cannot prove (or there simply is no interest in proving specific applications)

and that pretty much sums it up, yes
good work JJ

 

[snagencyV2.0]

So why offer the opportunity for discussion?

you again :kicktocurb:

nah man, just because i have a stance, does not mean i am not op-en to discussion
it also does not mean i am not open to discussing scientific data - but i need to qualify it, strain it, filter it (personally), to see if it makes sense to me

i do not just say "oh look - there is study that supports my conclusion!" and be done with it

no sir


jim - this IS discussion!

 

[JudoJosh]

So what do you expect to base the disccusion off of?

You want to discuss the health implications of milk but at the same time only accept personal experience and discount clinical research?

You want to make broad statements on how X will negatively effect everyone and it should be avoided and this statement isn't based on clinical research but just your personal beliefs. Its fine if you want to base your own health decisions off your own gut feelings, thoughts, opinions, etc but to make statements saying it is gonna effect everyone and is based solely on this is wrong.

How's this for a personal anecdote, i drink milk have asthma and am allergic to casein, and I'm fine.



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[jimbuick]

So what do you expect to base the disccusion off of?

My thought exactly.....

 

[snagencyV2.0]

JJ - i am not dismissing you or your presentation man!
i am simply discussing how i intellectually absorb things..
to clarify: my stance does not exclude nor ignore established scientific study, and by no means am i saying i do not wish to view a study you bring up!
sheesh
in fact - if there ARE supporting (or non-supporting for that matter) studies that either prove or disprove the stance i make, please by all means - i WOULD like to view them!

you are good with these studies, very versed..i like that about you in fact

we on the same page now?

i simply add - this is not MY PERSONAL sole platform with which to base my stance, and theories outside of 'proven studies' fascinate me too - if i can attach some validity to them, in my head

ya dig?

 

[jimbuick]

JJ - i am not dismissing you or your presentation man!
i am simply discussing how i intellectually absorb things..
to clarify: my stance does not exclude nor ignore established scientific study, and by no means am i saying i do not wish to view a study you bring up!
sheesh
in fact - if there ARE supporting (or non-supporting for that matter) studies that either prove or disprove the stance i make, please by all means - i WOULD like to view them!

you are good with these studies, very versed..i like that about you in fact

we on the same page now?

Indeed he is.

Lol I'm just in on this one to learn a little either way (about dairy and people)

 

[JudoJosh]

nope, you got it - this is my opinion (but i am by no means alone with this .02)
milk, soy..oh i could go on

And that's cool. People are entitled to their beliefs. You can believe whatever you want to believe and make your own decisions based solely off your own experiences. That's fine. My problem is when you pass off your own personal beliefs as evidence of something and then tell others they should or shouldn't do something based off this without first disclosing its just your belief. When you make a statement that reads as if you are stating a fact when in reality you are only expressing your personal opinion, this is wrong.

i feel there are a broad range of issues, that scientific study cannot prove (or there simply is no interest in proving specific applications)

There certainly is. I was just replying to your post connecting milk with inflammation. There definetely exist a potential downside to milk consumption and we can elaborate on that if you like.



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[jimbuick]

And that's cool. People are entitled to their beliefs. You can believe whatever you want to believe and make your own decisions based solely off your own experiences. That's fine. My problem is when you pass off your own personal beliefs as evidence of something and then tell others they should or shouldn't do something based off this without first disclosing its just your belief. When you make a statement that reads as if you are stating a fact when in reality you are only expressing your personal opinion, this is wrong.

There certainly is. I was just replying to your post connecting milk with inflammation. There definetely exist a potential downside to milk consumption and we can elaborate on that if you like.

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Elaborate

 

[snagencyV2.0]

And that's cool. People are entitled to their beliefs. You can believe whatever you want to believe and make your own decisions based solely off your own experiences. That's fine. My problem is when you pass off your own personal beliefs as evidence of something and then tell others they should or shouldn't do something based off this without first disclosing its just your belief. When you make a statement that reads as if you are stating a fact when in reality you are only expressing your personal opinion, this is wrong.

i take no issue with this, whatsoever
rebuttal: i never imposed my own personal experience to the extent it should apply to everyone - you have inferred that
i simply offered my own anecdotal evidence, to a wider-held (and shared by many others) stance that deems dairy to be unhealthy, in the general sense
if there are studies that show this to unquestionably be false - then i would certainly like to view that
we can discuss environmental estrogens, xeno-estrogens, phytoestrogens in this same manner..(again let's not, just another example..i've got some theories, that are shared by others inc some you know, on the srs dangers culminating from exposure to certain things we eat etc etc, that i don't think are quite supported fully by exisiting scientific data..)

I was just replying to your post connecting milk with inflammation. There definetely exist a potential downside to milk consumption and we can elaborate on that if you like.

and that is exactly where i wanted to go

let me give a small example, if i may (anecdotal tho it may be, it has already been tabled, sort of anyway, itt):
nutrient timing
if i am not mistaken, there is no study in existence that will quantify nutrient timing as a valid approach to body composition..
in fact - quite the opposite
i will adamantly take the other stance - despite NO scientific evidence - that: in the proper context, and with the proper application, there most definitely IS value to nutrient timing (and by extension but let's not get sidetracked here, meal frequency <qualifier> combined w/ manipulation of cal/macro/micro load)

what do i base this on? >>> certainly my own experience (anecdotal), as i have noticed repeated patterns time & time again, thruout yrs and yrs of application
but not only my own experience, also what others have experienced as well..if you still wish to label this anecdotal, that is fine

scientific stance will tell me i'm nuts -- scientific stance also never throws all the variables/context into the realm that need be considered, when discussing this approach
but - can this be duplicated outside of myself, by others, time and time again?
sure - as long as we stay in the same context of discussion and application, i believe so

can i prove it scientifically?
that's a whole nother ballgame

i still enjoy you science guys tho, make no mistake
in a perfect world, science meets real world applications to blend an awesome product

 

[snagencyV2.0]

There definetely exist a potential downside to milk consumption and we can elaborate on that if you like.

please
your thoughts?

 

[Spaniard]

Protein is whack, biceps aren't important, breakfast doesn't matter and you shouldn't cycle unless you get to 200lbs natural. Interesting week around here!

And you rep for PES I'd say its a great week!

- Valdez

 

[jbryand101b]

I believe in magic!

 

[Geoforce]

Now now, let's keep the logical discussion at a minimum meaning, none

Keep your science out of my religion.

 

[Spaniard]

I believe in magic!

Do you believe in magic?

- Valdez

 

[mr.cooper69]

Milk is a complex beast since all populations have some degree of lactose intolerance that progresses with age. This can lead to inflammatory GI conditions. Conversely, milk has specific components that aid in a variety of clinical issues, so you could really look at it from any perspective.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

Milk is a complex beast since all populations have some degree of lactose intolerance that progresses with age. This can lead to inflammatory GI conditions. Conversely, milk has specific components that aid in a variety of clinical issues, so you could really look at it from any perspective.

nail on head (anecdotally speaking, for me)
mine began with lactose intolerance, developed into full-blown allergy
i can still do some heavy whipping creams (limited basis) that do not have lactose, and get away with a slice of cheese here & there occasionally, but i have to watch it

 

[JudoJosh]

i take no issue with this, whatsoever
rebuttal: i never imposed my own personal experience to the extent it should apply to everyone - you have inferred that
i simply offered my own anecdotal evidence, to a wider-held (and shared by many others) stance that deems dairy to be unhealthy, in the general sense

I must have misread then. I apologize of that's the case

let me give a small example, if i may (anecdotal tho it may be, it has already been tabled, sort of anyway, itt):
nutrient timing
if i am not mistaken, there is no study in existence that will quantify nutrient timing as a valid approach to body composition..

Correct BUT we do have research looking at the physiological effects of various goods and macro combos take before and after workouts and from these we can make some pretty decent assumptions on what's optimal. There is tons of variables and individuality so that leaves us with a lot of wiggle room as to what exactly is optimal but we do have research which we should take into account while we are performing these "self experiments'

what do i base this on? >>> certainly my own experience (anecdotal), as i have noticed repeated patterns time & time again, thruout yrs and yrs of application
but not only my own experience, also what others have experienced as well..if you still wish to label this anecdotal, that is fine

Yup that is anecdotal evidence but just because it is anecdotal doesn't mean it is of less value to us. These kinds of evidence are invaluable to researchers, anecdotal evidence only really gets a bad rap in the supplement world since it is so filled with heavy marketing and let's face it, people are dumb.

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[JudoJosh]

Elaborate

please
your thoughts?

Sure. First there is lactose intolerance which effects some. Odd thing is lactose is present in breast milk so we have the capability to digest lactose but the problem is we see a down regulation of the enzymes needed to breakdown lactose. This just boils down to if your genetic ancestors have adapted to digest lactose or not.

Then there is casein which some may be allergic to. (I am, I breakout and get acid reflux after drinking a casein shake) then with regards to casein there is some evidence of it damaging the intestinal lining which leads to all sorts of other health problems. Invalid Link Removed

Finally there is the association of milk with various cancers. (I think prostate cancer was the most prominent one?). The idea is that betacellulin (which is found in milk) makes its way into circulation where it can bind to receptors and enhance cancer cell growth. The counter to this is that CLA (which is also found in milk) has anti cancer cell growth effects. The cancer research is still a little shaky as the data focuses on low fat milks and not full fat milks (which contain CLA). They also don't look at raw milk so this leaves a lot of unknown and grey area to it.

I don't know if you guys are familiar with the "paleo diet" but Cordain (one of the researchers and pushers of this diet) his very adament about the negative health effects of milk and has written about it if your interested in further readings.

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[snagencyV2.0]

I must have misread then. I apologize of that's the case

eh, no worries

Correct BUT we do have research looking at the physiological effects of various goods and macro combos take before and after workouts and from these we can make some pretty decent assumptions on what's optimal. There is tons of variables and individuality so that leaves us with a lot of wiggle room as to what exactly is optimal but we do have research which we should take into account while we are performing these "self experiments'

huh how bout that..
well, it's about time!
was the first big issue i ever had with science, insofar as it relates to dietary discretion
i've argued this for years, and been continually beat down by 'science' pushers (not extending this terminology to you so don't trip ) who claim nutrient timing in any form is irrelevant
i think coop has seen me in a few of these arguments in past times, in fact..
well. this is good news
(i would feel vindicated, if it were that important to me lol..does make me smile tho ahahaa)
srs, is good news, as i think science has sometimes pushed things backwards, with it's cutting-edge studies

Yup that is anecdotal evidence but just because it is anecdotal doesn't mean it is of less value to us. These kinds of evidence are invaluable to researchers

i'm liking you more & more the more i read from you JJ! :kiss: (obligatory no homo)
such a balanced outlook, refreshing

anecdotal evidence only really gets a bad rap in the supplement world since it is so filled with heavy marketing and let's face it, people are dumb.

ohhh i like that too
okay - all homo now

 

[snagencyV2.0]

Sure. First there is lactose intolerance which effects some. Odd thing is lactose is present in breast milk so we have the capability to digest lactose but the problem is we see a down regulation of the enzymes needed to breakdown lactose. This just boils down to if your genetic ancestors have adapted to digest lactose or not.

Then there is casein which some may be allergic to. (I am, I breakout and get acid reflux after drinking a casein shake) then with regards to casein there is some evidence of it damaging the intestinal lining which leads to all sorts of other health problems. Invalid Link Removed

Finally there is the association of milk with various cancers. (I think prostate cancer was the most prominent one?). The idea is that betacellulin (which is found in milk) makes its way into circulation where it can bind to receptors and enhance cancer cell growth. The counter to this is that CLA (which is also found in milk) has anti cancer cell growth effects. The cancer research is still a little shaky as the data focuses on low fat milks and not full fat milks (which contain CLA). They also don't look at raw milk so this leaves a lot of unknown and grey area to it.

I don't know if you guys are familiar with the "paleo diet" but Cordain (one of the researchers and pushers of this diet) his very adament about the negative health effects of milk and has written about it if your interested in further readings.

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awesome stuff

sure, know of paleo diet, lots of good stuff in there - see whenever i refer to stuff like this after i bring it up in yrs past, i always get the "appeal to authority" thing and "lack of scientific validity" blah blah blah, so i quit trying to bring up examples like this (which could be termed agendized by some) long ago

very nice man, and great examples

 

[Jiigzz]

Nice posts JJ. It's important to note that lactase generally declines with age because (like snag pointed out earlier) most mammels only need it when young (i.e. breast milk) and the evolutionary need for lactase decreases as overall consumption of lactose decreases. That being said, it must be possible to offset this if milk consumption is kept high throughout life; I tend to drink around 1.6 litres of milk a day purely out of enjoyment.

Oh, and I love it for the calcium.

Edit: Nevermind, already pointed out what I said.

 

[JudoJosh]

Nice posts JJ. It's important to note that lactase generally declines with age because (like snag pointed out earlier) most mammels only need it when young (i.e. breast milk) and the evolutionary need for lactase decreases as overall consumption of lactose decreases. That being said, it must be possible to offset this if milk consumption is kept high throughout life; I tend to drink around 1.6 litres of milk a day purely out of enjoyment.

Oh, and I love it for the calcium.

Edit: Nevermind, already pointed out what I said.

If I remember correctly gene expression for the ezymes required to break down lactose (lactase) starts to down regulate at around age 6 or so.

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[southsideguy]

If I remember correctly gene expression for the ezymes required to break down lactose (lactase) starts to down regulate at around age 6 or so.

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Life is math and science. I pay attention to you're posts in the science discussion section Judo; you're a smart dude

In my opinion, Scott Conley's Physique 2.0 is the best protein I've ever taken ( Ultra Peptide 2.0 is good too). Physique 2.0 specifically contains whole milk but its lactose free. The profile of the product is phenomenal (in my opinion). Ever used it? Thoughts on the product?

 

[JudoJosh]

I appreciate that but really I'm not smart, just am curious and believe in healthy skepticism.

That protein sounds interesting but also sounds like the price is gonna be a turn off for me

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[jimbuick]

I appreciate that but really I'm not smart, just am curious and believe in healthy skepticism.

That protein sounds interesting but also sounds like the price is gonna be a turn off for me

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Indeed, JJ is a big dumb dummy.

Dude doesn't even lift either.

 

[southsideguy]

I appreciate that but really I'm not smart, just am curious and believe in healthy skepticism.

That protein sounds interesting but also sounds like the price is gonna be a turn off for me

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Understood....

 

[snagencyV2.0]

healthy skepticism always a good thing, surely

okay, next topic..let's open up the debate on gluten..

muahuahahahahahaaaaa

i keed (kinda), just having fun

 

[JudoJosh]

Indeed, JJ is a big dumb dummy.

Dude doesn't even lift either.

Do you even lift bro!?! - Invalid Link Removed

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[JudoJosh]

healthy skepticism always a good thing, surely

okay, next topic..let's open up the debate on gluten..

muahuahahahahahaaaaa

i keed (kinda), just having fun

Do you avoid gluten as well?

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[jimbuick]

Do you even lift bro!?! - Invalid Link Removed

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Hilarious video.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

Do you avoid gluten as well?

mmm i wouldn't say i avoid it no, but i surely am cautious of it and limit my intake
some issues involved, when you totally eliminate gluten from diet, no?
(beyond the fact that damn near everything has gluten in it so would be very boring diet indeed)

my diet, in general tho, is structured majority with foods that do not contain gluten (not specifically for that intention, just because i eat a lot of meats/fruits/veggies all the time), and i do know of ppl with gluten allergies of course (my son for one)

 

[Jiigzz]

mmm i wouldn't say i avoid it no, but i surely am cautious of it and limit my intake
some issues involved, when you totally eliminate gluten from diet, no?
(beyond the fact that damn near everything has gluten in it so would be very boring diet indeed)

my diet, in general tho, is structured majority with foods that do not contain gluten (not specifically for that intention, just because i eat a lot of meats/fruits/veggies all the time), and i do know of ppl with gluten allergies of course (my son for one)

Heres a study that is in favour of a gluten-free approach (ZiR originally posted it here); the link was sent to me by a lecturer whom I was having a debate with him about GF diets. Was an interesting outcome.

J Nutr Biochem. 2012 Dec 17. pii: S0955-2863(12)00226-4. doi: 10.1016/j.jnutbio.2012.08.009. [Epub ahead of print]
Gluten-free diet reduces adiposity, inflammation and insulin resistance associated with the induction of PPAR-alpha and PPAR-gamma expression.
Soares FL, de Oliveira Matoso R, Teixeira LG, Menezes Z, Pereira SS, Alves AC, Batista NV, de Faria AM, Cara DC, Ferreira AV, Alvarez-Leite JI.
Source

Departamento de Alimentos, Faculdade de Farmácia, Instituto de Ciências Biológicas, Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais, Belo Horizonte, MG, Brazil; Departamento de Bioquímica e Imunologia, Instituto de Ciências Biológicas, Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais, Belo Horizonte, MG, Brazil. Electronic address: [email protected].
Abstract

Gluten exclusion (protein complex present in many cereals) has been proposed as an option for the prevention of diseases other than coeliac disease. However, the effects of gluten-free diets on obesity and its mechanisms of action have not been studied. Thus, our objective was to assess whether gluten exclusion can prevent adipose tissue expansion and its consequences. C57BL/6 mice were fed a high-fat diet containing 4.5% gluten (Control) or no gluten (GF). Body weight and adiposity gains, leukocyte rolling and adhesion, macrophage infiltration and cytokine production in adipose tissue were assessed. Blood lipid profiles, glycaemia, insulin resistance and adipokines were measured. Expression of the PPAR-α and γ, lipoprotein lipase (LPL), hormone sensitive lipase (HSL), carnitine palmitoyl acyltransferase-1 (CPT-1), insulin receptor, GLUT-4 and adipokines were assessed in epidydimal fat. Gluten-free animals showed a reduction in body weight gain and adiposity, without changes in food intake or lipid excretion. These results were associated with up-regulation of PPAR-α, LPL, HSL and CPT-1, which are related to lipolysis and fatty acid oxidation. There was an improvement in glucose homeostasis and pro-inflammatory profile-related overexpression of PPAR-γ. Moreover, intravital microscopy showed a lower number of adhered cells in the adipose tissue microvasculature. The overexpression of PPAR-γ is related to the increase of adiponectin and GLUT-4. Our data support the beneficial effects of gluten-free diets in reducing adiposity gain, inflammation and insulin resistance. The data suggests that diet gluten exclusion should be tested as a new dietary approach to prevent the development of obesity and metabolic disorders.

PMID: 23253599

 

[JudoJosh]

nvolved, when you totally eliminate gluten from diet, no?

Not that I know of

(beyond the fact that damn near everything has gluten in it so would be very boring diet indeed)

Mostly everything processed does. Avoid processed food and you will generally end up avoiding gluten

my diet, in general tho, is structured majority with foods that do not contain gluten (not specifically for that intention, just because i eat a lot of meats/fruits/veggies all the time), and i do know of ppl with gluten allergies of course (my son for one)

Sounds like a pretty damn good diet.


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[snagencyV2.0]

Heres a study that is in favour of a gluten-free approach (ZiR originally posted it here); the link was sent to me by a lecturer whom I was having a debate with him about GF diets. Was an interesting outcome.

oh good stuff man
that actually confirms what i have felt for awhile, but is good to see some documentation as i have not delved into it too far really, just in regards to my son and getting him healthy again..the inflammation factor of course intriques me
very cool stuff on compositional/insulin factors yeahh buddy
i like it!

Sounds like a pretty damn good diet.

refined thru the yrs, pretty consistent in what i do
i enjoy it!

 

[Spaniard]

So due to this cluster **** of a thread I decided to do a little research involving dairy and allergies.

I have for quite sometime now (8+ years) had GERD and apparently it could be from dairy consumption... Hmmm... I'm going to go a little deeper later but I may give no dairy a go and see what happens. it would be nice to not have to take a damn pill every morning thirty minutes before I eat.

- Valdez

 

[LiveToLift]

So due to this cluster **** of a thread I decided to do a little research involving dairy and allergies.

I have for quite sometime now (8+ years) had GERD and apparently it could be from dairy consumption... Hmmm... I'm going to go a little deeper later but I may give no dairy a go and see what happens. it would be nice to not have to take a damn pill every morning thirty minutes before I eat.

- Valdez

So this thread may have improved your quality of life?? Big win!

 

[Spaniard]

So this thread may have improved your quality of life?? Big win!

We shall see, I'm still skeptical

- Valdez

 

[JudoJosh]

So due to this cluster **** of a thread I decided to do a little research involving dairy and allergies.

I have for quite sometime now (8+ years) had GERD and apparently it could be from dairy consumption... Hmmm... I'm going to go a little deeper later but I may give no dairy a go and see what happens. it would be nice to not have to take a damn pill every morning thirty minutes before I eat.

- Valdez

Do you take fish oil? If so, stop

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[snagencyV2.0]

So due to this cluster **** of a thread I decided to do a little research involving dairy and allergies.

I have for quite sometime now (8+ years) had GERD and apparently it could be from dairy consumption... Hmmm... I'm going to go a little deeper later but I may give no dairy a go and see what happens. it would be nice to not have to take a damn pill every morning thirty minutes before I eat.

and that's what it's all about
isn't it strange, how something that seems odd or doubtful, or a wild turn of events that may seem depleted (or diminished, or even deleriously outrageous) -- can actually lead to personal growth and discovery?
sure sometimes there is nothing to it - but that in itself is actually a learning experience

We shall see, I'm still skeptical

always be balanced, healthy skepticism is tremendously valuable (as been mentioned)
always question everything, not in the paranoid sense, just logically and thoroughly
never believe everything you are told


for my part, i learned that hey - maybe science (esp in regards to compositional factors) may not be so bad after all..maybe i like it :lol:
(i still always carry healthy skepticism lol)
and, my next realm of self-discovery in dietary discretion may just be tackling the total gluten-free barrier..
signs point to this being absolutely conducive with other beliefs of mine, and further enhancing my quest for not only health but also my appearance

dig it

 

[Spaniard]

Do you take fish oil? If so, stop

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No I can't take fish oils but some of my worst reflux bouts are from fish oils

- Valdez

 

[Rodja]

No I can't take fish oils but some of my worst reflux bouts are from fish oils

- Valdez

Take 1 Tbsp of apple cider vinegar 1-2x/day. You'll be fine in a week.

 

[tyga tyga]

Take 1 Tbsp of apple cider vinegar 1-2x/day. You'll be fine in a week.

This. I had horrible acid reflux, took ACV for roughly a week and havent had it since. Although i regularly take ACV now for the plethora of benefits it offers.

 

[Whacked]

Sup Rodja

You think there is ANY Difference betwen the caps and the real deal/liquid

Also highly debated

Take 1 Tbsp of apple cider vinegar 1-2x/day. You'll be fine in a week.

 

[Rodja]

Sup Rodja

You think there is ANY Difference betwen the caps and the real deal/liquid

Also highly debated

I haven't personally tried the tabs of them to compare them against the liquid, but I generally defer to the form found within nature, which is obviously liquid.

 

[JudoJosh]

Plus I imagine liquid is less $$

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[Spaniard]

Take 1 Tbsp of apple cider vinegar 1-2x/day. You'll be fine in a week.

Tried it :/ works for EVERYONE but me... Sucks

- Valdez