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BPS' What's improved with the upcoming DHEA transdermal

I don't know but I love the idea of topical Urso, increased IGF-1, increased insulin sensitivity, lower estrogen... Very interesting... looking at the molecular weight though it is 456.7 I think the cut off for being a viable transdermally is 300. I may be wrong.
 
MrKleen73 said:
I don't know but I love the idea of topical Urso, increased IGF-1, increased insulin sensitivity, lower estrogen... Very interesting... looking at the molecular weight though it is 456.7 I think the cut off for being a viable transdermally is 300. I may be wrong.
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Idk why you guys don't know this but Patrick Arnold makes Ur spray which is Arginine Ursolic Acetate. works transdermally
 
Austinmck17 said:
Idk why you guys don't know this but Patrick Arnold makes Ur spray which is Arginine Ursolic Acetate. works transdermally
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Not sure what is with the condescending tone there. Nor the assumption that there was a "We" in MY post. I certainly don't speak for the entire rep team. Many of them may be aware of that fact that he carries that product. I don't know why you think I should inherently know what PA is doing. His company is not BPS I don't represent him, and I am not paid to know everything about what every one does in the world of supplements. I am paid to fix computers. You have to realize this is something we do on the side not our entire lives nor livelihood. Expecting us to know what every other company has going on is unrealistic. Most of us are guys just like you all. I said I "think" that 300 was the cut off for being viable transdermally, and follow it with "I may be wrong." Leaving the door open to be corrected but not to be spoken down to. Last time I was making my own transdermal solutions which was a few years ago the carriers available the recommended threshold was around 300. That is the information I was speaking to.

Thanks for making me aware of his transdermal product. I will probably have to pick some up now because I am a fan of Urso and it was his original Ursobolic that I used with great success.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Not sure what is with the condescending tone there. Nor the assumption that there was a "We" in MY post. I certainly don't speak for the entire rep team. Many of them may be aware of that fact that he carries that product. I don't know why you think I should inherently know what PA is doing. His company is not BPS I don't represent him, and I am not paid to know everything about what every one does in the world of supplements. I am paid to fix computers. You have to realize this is something we do on the side not our entire lives nor livelihood. Expecting us to know what every other company has going on is unrealistic. Most of us are guys just like you all. I said I "think" that 300 was the cut off for being viable transdermally, and follow it with "I may be wrong." Leaving the door open to be corrected but not to be spoken down to. Last time I was making my own transdermal solutions which was a few years ago the carriers available the recommended threshold was around 300. That is the information I was speaking to.

Thanks for making me aware of his transdermal product. I will probably have to pick some up now because I am a fan of Urso and it was his original Ursobolic that I used with great success.
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Sorry man I didn't mean to come off like that. I thought most people who follow AM would have seen threads talking about Ur spray. Especially if one was interested in Ursolic acid. I didn't mean to speak to your whole team I was speaking to only you and whoever else was in this thread.

I will more than likely get Ur spray to run this summer to help me lean out and maintain muscle when I switch to a more cardio based training program.
 
andrew732 said:
dopamine related side effects from entering the blood stream
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Interesting. I'll have to look into that when I can...


Resolve said:
As I recall, the legislation regarding topicals is different from standard supplement law, but I'll have to look it up again to remember how they differ...
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Resolve, you can probably find it quicker than I can. Lol. But I'd be interested in hearing your take on it.
 
Think topicals fall under The catagory of "cosmetics."
 
Excellent conversation. As someone on this inside, I can tell you all, you are going to LOVE the new transdermal. I myself am psyched to use it personally, let alone sell it lol.
 
metroba said:
Excellent conversation. As someone on this inside, I can tell you all, you are going to LOVE the new transdermal. I myself am psyched to use it personally, let alone sell it lol.
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So its already been developed?
 
Indeed it has. If everything goes as planned, we are only a few more weeks out.
 
I am very excited to see what this is going to be also.
 
Austinmck17 said:
Sorry man I didn't mean to come off like that. I thought most people who follow AM would have seen threads talking about Ur spray. Especially if one was interested in Ursolic acid. I didn't mean to speak to your whole team I was speaking to only you and whoever else was in this thread.

I will more than likely get Ur spray to run this summer to help me lean out and maintain muscle when I switch to a more cardio based training program.
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Well I have posted here too and didn't know, PA is a pariah in the industry, many of us don't keep up with his company that is poorly represented. Also, many people aren't natty and don't follow what many of the companies make. Best way to go is not assume ;).
 
oufinny said:
Well I have posted here too and didn't know, PA is a pariah in the industry, many of us don't keep up with his company that is poorly represented. Also, many people aren't natty and don't follow what many of the companies make. Best way to go is not assume ;).
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Since when is this the case? I think this is a bit of an overstatement.
 
MrKleen73 said:
I agree that pregnenolone is a good part of the formula. However I have to disagree with the statement that DHT is a powerfull A.I.

DHT is not an AI at all. It can counteract some of the effects of Estrogen especially in breast tissue but it is a product of the aromatase process. The acronym AI means Aromatase Inhibitor naturally occuring DHT is one of the 2 hormones created when testosterone or DHEA is aromatized some is converted to DHT and some of it converted to Estrogen.

Part of the reason steroidial DHT is beneficial at minimizing or reducing gyno is that when you begin to shut down from the higher DHT levels there is less testosterone and therefor less estrogen due to less aromatization. An estrogen starved mammary gland will shrink, and if starved of estrogen long enough some of the cells can even die.
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Hey Kleen,

Not trying to rain on your parade or be condescending or anything of the sort... but this is truly a misinformed statement.

Dht is a product of 5a reductase, not the aromatase enzyme. There are no hormonal "byproducts" of the aromatase process. There is one, single, steroidal skeleton involved, typically in the form of testosterone, the aromatase enzyme attaches and then adds the necessary compound to turn that steroidal skeleton into one bearing the formula for estrogen. Plain and simple. There aren't 2 skeletons that cleave making both estrogen and dht or any other sort of combo. They both occur through their own individual enzymatic conversion processes on individual skeletons [of testosterone].

Check out any male hormone conversion chart... Google can show many out here's one on my photobucket.... Invalid Link Removed... and you'll see what I'm talking about.



Separate point.... kinda... is my disagreement that this is even a viable hormone supplement for the market...

I know many others like dermacrine have come and gone, impressing many... but i just don't see it and think that any male should avoid supplementing dhea like the plague unless on trt and they need a viable source for other sex hormones...

I've made multiple arguments, that cite studies, against dhea use(especially transdermal) that i can copy or link if wanted...but essentially it shows how horrible dhea really can be for a man and the horrible ratio of testosterone conversion that occurs compared to estrogen(something like 40% increase in T compared to a 300% increase in E over baseline values) and i know the argument is an AI is included BUT it's not a strong one, def not strong enough to offset those percentages. Not to mention dhea has its own intrinsic effects at the ER AND other metabolites dhea converts to(that an AI can't block)also have direct interactions at the ER....

So like I said, really unless your lacking in estrogen, I'd avoid taking dhea like the plague.

Again not trying to start an argument, just making some viable points I'd be happy to back up further if requested to do so.
 
Sourdough, pretty sure you misinterpreted Kleen's post. Kleen, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were trying to say that test can be converted to either DHT or estradiol, not that the single sterol skeleton was being split into two separate hormones.

Edit: I've seen conversion rates in studies both high and low, seems very dependent on model system. Also, there is plenty of evidence of DHEA having beneficial effects in plenty of studies, though the mechanism is still certainly not agreed upon.
 
megadeth said:
Since when is this the case? I think this is a bit of an overstatement.
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Innovator is more like it. Over the last 10 years PA is probably responsible for more big discoveries in supplements than anyone else out there. Usually what he brings to the market first is what everyone else will have in their product down the road.
 
megadeth said:
Since when is this the case? I think this is a bit of an overstatement.
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No, he is based on his past involvement in the BALCO scandal. Maybe that is not the best choice of words to use but I don't pray at the alter of Patrick Arnold though he is an excellent source of info from time to time (only read a little of what he posts). He was an innovator prior to his incarceration and I wanted to run his products of the past more so than what little I have seen come out recently. It is neither here nor there, people are allowed to like and believe what they want, I have no skin in the game past helping anyone with BPS.
 
oufinny said:
No, he is based on his past involvement in the BALCO scandal. Maybe that is not the best choice of words to use but I don't pray at the alter of Patrick Arnold though he is an excellent source of info from time to time (only read a little of what he posts). He was an innovator prior to his incarceration and I wanted to run his products of the past more so than what little I have seen come out recently. It is neither here nor there, people are allowed to like and believe what they want, I have no skin in the game past helping anyone with BPS.
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Nor do I pray at the alter of Patrick Arnold. I do however give respect where it's due. He was an innovator before his incarceration and still is today. All you have do do is take a look at UR spray which is sold out constantly and as far as I have seen has had unanimous positive reviews. Yes, Pat went to prison during the Balco scandal. So what! Lots of the guys that have run supplement companies have gone to prison. Not to mention, Patrick went for doing much less than the supplement companies selling hormones today with impunity are doing. He is one of the guys that paved the way for companies like BPS.
 
Let's try and keep politics out of this thread and get back to what's important. This stuff is going to be amazing and it is going to be well received by the public.

Anyone want to guess the name?
 
Resolve said:
I haven't even been told what the new name is gonna be. I'm thinking 'surge' is gonna be involved somehow... hmm... :scratchchin:
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Invalid Link Removed
 
metroba said:
Let's try and keep politics out of this thread and get back to what's important. This stuff is going to be amazing and it is going to be well received by the public.

Anyone want to guess the name?
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Yep. I am no longer going to have an opinion anymore. It's just too much of a distraction from what we are trying to do, educate and answer questions related to BPS products.
 
metroba said:
Let's try and keep politics out of this thread and get back to what's important. This stuff is going to be amazing and it is going to be well received by the public.

Anyone want to guess the name?
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thebigTD
 
TestSurge. That is in fact what it is supposed to do right?
 
Through careful thought we think we are going to go with SurgaSurge. Just sounds right.











For the sarcasm challenged, that was a joke.
 
metroba said:
Through careful thought we think we are going to go with SurgaSurge. Just sounds right.











For the sarcasm challenged, that was a joke.
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I already posted it on facebook, what?
 
Resolve said:
Sourdough, pretty sure you misinterpreted Kleen's post. Kleen, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were trying to say that test can be converted to either DHT or estradiol, not that the single sterol skeleton was being split into two separate hormones.

Edit: I've seen conversion rates in studies both high and low, seems very dependent on model system. Also, there is plenty of evidence of DHEA having beneficial effects in plenty of studies, though the mechanism is still certainly not agreed upon.
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... this all went down with dermacrine ages ago, points were made but many used the product regardless n given it was basically the only td dhea supp on the market at the time, it kinda did have its place when absolutely needed... which isn't nearly as often as most assumed and def isn't a viable replacement for a test base.

I really don't know why some company doesn't just come out with a 4dhea supplement in transdermal form for us that would really only be susceptible to aromatising once it's converted to test like the old 4 ad was....

Then transaderm came out, just like this and it also copied the dermacrine formula n faced the same scrutiny... that's when one of the reps tried to represent a study as a viable reason why it SHOULD be used as a test base... which i actually read and found only proved my point....

Here's the study n my explanation/footnotes why it's a bad idea....
Invalid Link Removed

N here's the original transaderm thread where everything was brought up...

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/183995-ph-stackin-question.html#post3031158
 
Sourdough said:
Hey Kleen,

Not trying to rain on your parade or be condescending or anything of the sort... but this is truly a misinformed statement.

Dht is a product of 5a reductase, not the aromatase enzyme. There are no hormonal "byproducts" of the aromatase process. There is one, single, steroidal skeleton involved, typically in the form of testosterone, the aromatase enzyme attaches and then adds the necessary compound to turn that steroidal skeleton into one bearing the formula for estrogen. Plain and simple. There aren't 2 skeletons that cleave making both estrogen and dht or any other sort of combo. They both occur through their own individual enzymatic conversion processes on individual skeletons [of testosterone].

Check out any male hormone conversion chart... Google can show many out here's one on my photobucket.... Invalid Link Removed... and you'll see what I'm talking about.



Separate point.... kinda... is my disagreement that this is even a viable hormone supplement for the market...

I know many others like dermacrine have come and gone, impressing many... but i just don't see it and think that any male should avoid supplementing dhea like the plague unless on trt and they need a viable source for other sex hormones...

I've made multiple arguments, that cite studies, against dhea use(especially transdermal) that i can copy or link if wanted...but essentially it shows how horrible dhea really can be for a man and the horrible ratio of testosterone conversion that occurs compared to estrogen(something like 40% increase in T compared to a 300% increase in E over baseline values) and i know the argument is an AI is included BUT it's not a strong one, def not strong enough to offset those percentages. Not to mention dhea has its own intrinsic effects at the ER AND other metabolites dhea converts to(that an AI can't block)also have direct interactions at the ER....

So like I said, really unless your lacking in estrogen, I'd avoid taking dhea like the plague.

Again not trying to start an argument, just making some viable points I'd be happy to back up further if requested to do so.
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Not taking it that way at all and , I completely misspoke when I mentioned they were part of the same process, what Resolve said below is pretty much correct I knew they were both converted from the same substrates. However I was indeed confusing the reductase process as part of the aromatase process since it has been quite a while since I looked at the flow chart. So I can admit my folly there. Good catch and thanks for posting the chart!

I agree with the high rate of conversion of DHEA to Estro however, I also wonder if some of the studies you are mentioning are based off of oral administration of DHEA and not topical. Oral administration has a higher rate of estro conversion than topical, specifically referring to the upper back and shoulder areas where the conversion to estrogen has been shown to be much lower. Also where the recommended application of DHEA products is in general.

Resolve said:
Sourdough, pretty sure you misinterpreted Kleen's post. Kleen, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were trying to say that test can be converted to either DHT or estradiol, not that the single sterol skeleton was being split into two separate hormones.

Edit: I've seen conversion rates in studies both high and low, seems very dependent on model system. Also, there is plenty of evidence of DHEA having beneficial effects in plenty of studies, though the mechanism is still certainly not agreed upon.
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Yes I have read multiple studies citing the positive effects of DHEA as well.

This is good conversation, lets keep it going.
 
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