Tapering down AAS/PH/DS to retain gains
- Thread starter chocolatemilk
- Start date
B5150
Legend
Thanks for the references :thumbsup:
The only issue I would have with that is that 50mg a week of exogenous testosterone is actually less than endogenous testosterone. Although you may be in the middle point, or beginning restart, technically, in practical application it is likely counterproductive at such a low dose...as well as 100mg and even up to 200mg IMO.
OnTheRoadTo
Active member
oral steroids are a different beast than test-e, imo, which is pretty weak. 300mg a week is nothing.
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soontobbeast
Well-known member
true. ive read in anabolics 9th ed. that damage to lipids is not dose dependent.
rather, if you have the steroids in your system the hdl/ldl starts to flip flop.
i.e. at 20mg epi and 50mg epi, damage to lipids will be the same....something to consider when you're talking about stretching out oral cycles.
but if we only look at LBM retention, it would probably be advantageous to do this method.......health wise, not so much.
not sure what effect pulsing has on lipids....since theoretically the steroid is out of your system for 4/7 days....seems like lipids would be effected to a lesser extent.
wastedwhiteboy2
Board Supporter
FYI. Taking 10 mg of sd with a half life of 4hrs will result in 1.25mg being in the system 12 hours later.
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
Exactly. There is a fine line where exogenous and endogenous testosterone meet. At this point where they meet, you could lower exogenous testosterone lower and lower which should raise endogenous testosterone levels.
As mentioned before the studies do not show this to happen. It is speculation based on a dose-dependent relationship and it happens naturally when you stop using steroids and have low testosterone levels. One could manipulate exogenous testosterone levels to get lower and lower and manipulate the body to begin homeostasis recovery while still taking exogenous testosterone.
It would take longer (but no doubt you would get better gain retention and an easier transition off the steroids).
Something easy like Test E would be good for this.
True... 300mg is decent IMO. Someone would have pretty high levels of test at 300mg enough to make noticeable gains over natural training.
Pulsing low doses of fast acting orals would probably work better than tapering them down and taking daily doses...
Do you know the half life of SD for sure whiteboy?
SouthernCharm
Well-known member
How did I miss this?!?!
At work but post later!
At work but post later!
B5150
Legend
Yes, but you will no longer be anything at all but maybe physiological levels at best...no? I mean for it to be low enough to trigger LH and endogenous production it would have to be lower than physiological levels...no? So why bother if you are not supraphysiological? Why not just drop out exogenous and begin HPTA recovery with SERMS and or other ancillaries?
Plenty of studies show that some SERMs can facilitate this rather quickly. So when you taper for 4 weeks achieving maybe physiological levels you could just use a proper PCT which would last 4 weeks and achieve the same levels. Then once you are done you are done.
I'm just not much for the idea that the wheel needs to be reinvented. It is overcomplicating a very simply idea - sustained levels supraphysiological levels of anabolic hormones - recover. JMHO
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
Yes, but you will no longer be anything at all but maybe physiological levels at best...no? I mean for it to be low enough to trigger LH and endogenous production it would have to be lower than physiological levels...no? So why bother if you are not supraphysiological? Why not just drop out exogenous and begin HPTA recovery with SERMS and or other ancillaries?
Plenty of studies show that some SERMs can facilitate this rather quickly. So when you taper for 4 weeks achieving maybe physiological levels you could just use a proper PCT which would last 4 weeks and achieve the same levels. Then once you are done you are done.
I'm just not much for the idea that the wheel needs to be reinvented. It is overcomplicating a very simply idea - sustained levels supraphysiological levels of anabolic hormones - recover. JMHO
Haha, we are not reinventing the wheel here, simply innovating it... if it can be done!
You are correct Sir, levels of androgens must be lower than physiological levels in order to trigger LH and endogenous production.
Do you see the potential with that though? One could potentially go through an entire cycle and come out of it never having low endogenous T levels as the sole source of hormones for muscle retention (low endogenous T sucks BIG TIME!)
For instance, run the cycle, begin to taper down to physiological levels of androgens (exogenously). Start the SERM, and begin to taper little by little while giving the body enough time to "pay back" what you are tapering off (endogenously).
It is definitely more complicated in this sense.
Fast acting orals with short half lives would probably have to be pulsed at low doses to do this.
Test injections would be easier to manipulate the dose and you have a way better idea at how to gauge your exogenous testosterone levels and know how much to taper by.
I also think a rough guideline cycle can be designed to accomplish this^ to some degree...
Might have to start a charity fund for all the blood tests that need to be done while doing this...
wastedwhiteboy2
Board Supporter
No just guessing. Looks like the OTC hormone chart shows 12 hr half life. I justed wanted to show how long it actually takes for a quick half life hormone to leave the system. 1.25 mg is not much but its still there after 12 hrs.
OnTheRoadTo
Active member
I thought about this a little more, I think what CM wants to say is this:
1. Normal gains are made with the total androgen level in the body at some arbitrary level of 1.0
2. Cycle gains are made on supraphysiological doses of androgens(lets call this dose level 4), which then supresses the production of androgens to basically 0.
3. In the current cycle->PCT regime, you see the dose of exogenous androgens (4.0 on cycle) removed completely, and then attempt to restart the HPTA, leaving a gap of near-zero androgen levels. If we reduced the level of androgen present to 1.0 or so, WHILE ADMINISTERING SERMS, perhaps a recovery could still be maintained, albeit likely more slowly than a normal PCT.
This suggests to me that you don't want pyramidding, per se. You want a LONGER PCT, with androgens administered exogenously to NEVER DROP TO A HYPOANDROGENIC STATE. So, a Cycle might be 5 weeks, with a serm added for 7 weeks, with a 3 week low dose bridge to begin the PCT while the testicles are restarted.
The question is, how much to use?
based on this:
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and we know that superdrol is 400 times as anabolic as test, but 20 times more androgenic....so 7/20 = 0.3mg per day to stabilize?
That can't be quite right, but it suggests that even a very very very very low dose of anabolic could be useful in an extended PCT, I think
1. Normal gains are made with the total androgen level in the body at some arbitrary level of 1.0
2. Cycle gains are made on supraphysiological doses of androgens(lets call this dose level 4), which then supresses the production of androgens to basically 0.
3. In the current cycle->PCT regime, you see the dose of exogenous androgens (4.0 on cycle) removed completely, and then attempt to restart the HPTA, leaving a gap of near-zero androgen levels. If we reduced the level of androgen present to 1.0 or so, WHILE ADMINISTERING SERMS, perhaps a recovery could still be maintained, albeit likely more slowly than a normal PCT.
This suggests to me that you don't want pyramidding, per se. You want a LONGER PCT, with androgens administered exogenously to NEVER DROP TO A HYPOANDROGENIC STATE. So, a Cycle might be 5 weeks, with a serm added for 7 weeks, with a 3 week low dose bridge to begin the PCT while the testicles are restarted.
The question is, how much to use?
based on this:
Invalid Link Removed
and we know that superdrol is 400 times as anabolic as test, but 20 times more androgenic....so 7/20 = 0.3mg per day to stabilize?
That can't be quite right, but it suggests that even a very very very very low dose of anabolic could be useful in an extended PCT, I think
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
Intriguing post! Repped...
You hit it on the button... if level 1 was the body's natural state, tapering off steroids would allow you to never get below level 1 if done right with the right dosage.
Hell when you stop abruptly with the steroid use you go from level 4 to 0.2.
Yea you could say what we are after is a longer PCT which involves a small dose of exogenous androgens to keep the body at a normal state the whole time.
Can you explain the math to me with SD? Why divide 7/20 and that would be the stabilize dose. And by stabilize do you mean that would give you level 1 androgens in your system?
RickRock13
Well-known member
I would really like to see blood results pre, during, and post using this method of cycling. I am inclined to think that you would see more people trying this after they seen the results of the bloods
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
I would really like to see blood results pre, during, and post using this method of cycling. I am inclined to think that you would see more people trying this after they seen the results of the bloods
I would like to see 5 rounds of blood tests from 5 different people doing this before even thinkink it could be acceptable lol... although I would be more than inclined to be the Guinea pig for it
OnTheRoadTo
Active member
I figured that androgenicity was a correlate for suppression - it may not be, but I think that's the general trend in vida. Ostarine, for instance, seems to be less suppressive than S4, but more anabolic...but also has less direct effect on strength and leaning.
So, if 7mg of test is as much suppression in terms of androgen load as a normal person would have, (and we know SERMS given to a healthy HPTA boost test+LH significantly) you should be able to recover roughly on that much suppression...so 7mg/factor of 20x more suppressive = 0.3mg superdrol (in blood, bioavailability will bump the oral dose up some).
This dose is still 20 times more anabolic than the testosterone equivalent (The Q-ratio of SD is 400:20 = 20)
I'm unsure how well it would work, but that's the theory, anyway. The doses are low enough that I wouldn't freak out over my liver.
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
Nice... I don't know much about the androgenicity being a correlate for suppression so I will see if I can learn a bit about that.
Hm, with that in mind, I would try:
Week 1: SD 30 mg (gain)
Week 2: SD 20 mg (gain)
Week 3: SD 20 mg (gain)
Week 4: SD 10 mg (maybe gain)
Week 5: SD 5 mg (maintain mass & slowly come down)
Week 6: SD 5 mg (maintain mass & slowly come down)
Week 7: SD 2.5 mg (maintain mass & slowly come down & no liver stress beyond here)
Week 8: SD 1 mg (come down)
Week 10: SD .5 mg (START SERM HERE & recover)
Week 11: SD .5 mg
Week 12: SD .25 mg
Week 13: SD .25 mg
Week 14: SD .1 mg
Week 15: STOP SD CONTINUE SERM TO WEEK 16
I don't know...
What would you guys run?
OnTheRoadTo
Active member
I think I'd go:
20sd/20sd/20sd/40epi/40epi/5mg SD pulsed+SERM/1mg SD+SERM/.5mg+SERM/.5mg + SERM
then SERM for 3 more weeks. Up until the pulse week I'd have some hcg to ensure testicular sensitivity to LH stays up, but I feel that way about every theoretical cycle now.
I put the pulse week in to let the SERM have windows of complete clearance from the hypothalamus and pituitary in case there are switches that go "all the way off" and need a STRONG signal to reset. That should give you a nonzero base to bring up for the rest of PCT.
I think in reality I will probably just bridge ostarine across my cycles to avoid the harsh comedown.
20sd/20sd/20sd/40epi/40epi/5mg SD pulsed+SERM/1mg SD+SERM/.5mg+SERM/.5mg + SERM
then SERM for 3 more weeks. Up until the pulse week I'd have some hcg to ensure testicular sensitivity to LH stays up, but I feel that way about every theoretical cycle now.
I put the pulse week in to let the SERM have windows of complete clearance from the hypothalamus and pituitary in case there are switches that go "all the way off" and need a STRONG signal to reset. That should give you a nonzero base to bring up for the rest of PCT.
I think in reality I will probably just bridge ostarine across my cycles to avoid the harsh comedown.
SouthernCharm
Well-known member
My question is how are you going to take just .5mg or 1mg of SD? You say you can take out the powder from the caps but the only problem with that is that there are other compounds in there as fillers, not one cap is just going to have superdrol in it. So unless you buy the bulk powder, then this would be close to impossible.
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
You know what I feel like this pyramiding stuff is useless if one just uses a SERM, hCG, & Ostarine with the standard cycle...
True bro...
In conclusion: Just use Ostarine, SERM, & hCG lol.
SouthernCharm
Well-known member
Awww no milky i didn't wanna kill your dream!! lol
I mean you could do this with anadrol, dianabol, etc.. most orals that have been on the black market for a minute... (yeah bulk powders are pretty easy to come by)
but i have never seen bulk superdrol powder
however it does intrigue me to think that you could do this with test. im gonna have an extensive pct with a serm, gh peps, igf, osta... I wonder if I could be the guinea pig that uses this method of tapering his test dosages...
HMMMMMM
UnrealMachine
Well-known member
i wouldn't want to "come down" on anything less than 10mg of SD. 5mg at the very least when you transition into taking your PCT stuff.
ya a guy got results from 5mg. But that's results coming from a natty state. That won't happen when you're coming from an "on" state and you are way beyond your natty state... you may be subject to losing the gains, and anything under 5mg is pretty useless I would think.
ya a guy got results from 5mg. But that's results coming from a natty state. That won't happen when you're coming from an "on" state and you are way beyond your natty state... you may be subject to losing the gains, and anything under 5mg is pretty useless I would think.
boricuarage
Banned
no SD expert here, but instead of tapering or pyramiding.. couldn't you just go 10 mg of SD across the border that wat you can go on a longer cycle? or is it not worth it because of the half life?
jpk
Member
This is a great thread. It's got me thinking.
I like the idea of coming down off cycle with some reasonable level of anabolic capability still in the system (test, roids, ostarine etc.)
My question is what state are the androgen receptors in after one of these cycles? Aren't receptors getting a little bit fried after a hard cycle? Would 5mg of SD have the same effect at the end of a cycle as at the beginning?
Also, do receptors adapt to a specific compound over the time of a cycle, but would be happy to accept a different molecule with a fuller effect? If so, the logic of using Osta post-cycle seems sound. However, if the androgen receptors are tiring, then you'd just be beating a dead horse and wasting a $100 bottle of goodies.
I like the idea of coming down off cycle with some reasonable level of anabolic capability still in the system (test, roids, ostarine etc.)
My question is what state are the androgen receptors in after one of these cycles? Aren't receptors getting a little bit fried after a hard cycle? Would 5mg of SD have the same effect at the end of a cycle as at the beginning?
Also, do receptors adapt to a specific compound over the time of a cycle, but would be happy to accept a different molecule with a fuller effect? If so, the logic of using Osta post-cycle seems sound. However, if the androgen receptors are tiring, then you'd just be beating a dead horse and wasting a $100 bottle of goodies.
OnTheRoadTo
Active member
Myostatin upregulates, which slows down gains - generally that's on a 12 week timetable, though? Androgen receptors are actually more numerous at the end of a cycle than the beginning.
UnrealMachine
Well-known member
I don't like doing a static dose for too long. In any cycle you will hit a point where your body gets used to what you're doing and your gains level off, that's why almost all of the oral cycles we discuss ramp the dose upward, esp. the steroids with short halflifes which reach peak concentration really rapidly and thus stagnate very fast.
i don't think androgen receptors are as much as an issue as are other things going on in your body like myostatin. But 5mg at the beginning of the cycle vs. the end of a cycle is a huge huge difference, you are comparing a natty state vs. a roided up state where your gains will start to fall off if you go back into a natty state. Very big difference.
I think the fact that your body just gained 10 pounds of muscle and is trying to get used to it is far more important than the androgen receptor issue... people run cycles for many months, if the receptors stopped working then you would think that these people would stop.
B5150
Legend
Once glycogen saturation levels peak, which really seems to be the initial rapid weight with many of these oral, I think that the stagnation has more variables that contribute to it then levels of androgen...IMHO.
After all they are orals, designed to be run for short periods, and usually designed to be rapidly efficacious.
Someone runs a static test cycle and gains weight for a good long time during the duration of the cycle as long as diet and training are linearly increased accordingly. Anyway...
RickRock13
Well-known member
I am loving this thread. It is full of a lot of brainstorming and everyone putting their heads together. I have seen a lot of great ideas and I personally have learned a great deal just in this thread...just wanted to say that
I think thattapering down the dose to slowly come down is a great idea..up to a point. I think it would work at maintaining your gains and solidifying it until you reach a dose that is so minimal that is no longer effective. What that dose would be is open to speculation. we could guess that anything under 5mg of SD is pointless, but without comfirmation its a guess. we may find out that anything under 10mg at the end of a cycle is pointless like Unreal said. i agree that 10mg at the end is not the same as 10mg at the beginning. I'm interested in others opinions though. This is very interesting
I think thattapering down the dose to slowly come down is a great idea..up to a point. I think it would work at maintaining your gains and solidifying it until you reach a dose that is so minimal that is no longer effective. What that dose would be is open to speculation. we could guess that anything under 5mg of SD is pointless, but without comfirmation its a guess. we may find out that anything under 10mg at the end of a cycle is pointless like Unreal said. i agree that 10mg at the end is not the same as 10mg at the beginning. I'm interested in others opinions though. This is very interesting
UnrealMachine
Well-known member
i agree that there are a lot of variables at play that cause the stagnation. Even in a test cycle though, it happens, around the week 8-10 mark by most accounts. Of course it differs a lot for everyone.
In my experience with cycling orals anyway, I have often noticed some stagnation in the gains occurring around week 3 or 4, depends on the cycle of course, but usually a dose bump combined with a calorie bump remedies the situation nicely.
imjuschillin
Member
I too really like this thread. It is thinking outside the box to maximize results while minimizing sides. That sounds like a smart way to go about, well, anything really. :O)
I remember recently hearing some people adding low D bol or Var to their PCT cycles.... Now, while not everyone was 100% on board with that idea, seems sum peeps found some merit to it.
So, is their maybe a totally different approach available that we are not looking at? Like perhaps some manipulation of PCT "ingredients" along with AAS? So, rather than running a cycle then PCT, some type of both at once approach?
Im not saying we should or it's a new best thing, Im totally just thinking out loud...
(P.S... UnrealM... Is that you in your avatar? Damn, you r looking jacked my friend! Good job.)
I remember recently hearing some people adding low D bol or Var to their PCT cycles.... Now, while not everyone was 100% on board with that idea, seems sum peeps found some merit to it.
So, is their maybe a totally different approach available that we are not looking at? Like perhaps some manipulation of PCT "ingredients" along with AAS? So, rather than running a cycle then PCT, some type of both at once approach?
Im not saying we should or it's a new best thing, Im totally just thinking out loud...
(P.S... UnrealM... Is that you in your avatar? Damn, you r looking jacked my friend! Good job.)
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
Androgen receptor is an androgen receptor. The receptor itself does not change, but the number of receptors changes. And like ontheroad to said, androgen receptors are higher in numbers after a cycle. I don't know how true that is but the guys knows his stuff.
Theres no such thing as androgen receptors getting "fried" they are either activated or inactive. The receptor itself does not change.
No, 5 mg SD at the beginning of the cycle would give you gains.
5 mg of SD at the end of the cycle would probably just maintain gains (possibly lose some glycogen and muscle but nothing major as if you would just stop using)
Never heard of that happening. A receptor is a receptor. It has a certain structure that allows a wide array of androgens to bind. There have been two types of androgen receptors that have been identified and they are classed as "A" or "B" and they do not change.
Well if there is truth to what ontheroadto said, Ostarine would produce even better effects due to the high number of androgen receptors after a cycle.
Good questions.
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
I think thattapering down the dose to slowly come down is a great idea..up to a point. I think it would work at maintaining your gains and solidifying it until you reach a dose that is so minimal that is no longer effective. What that dose would be is open to speculation. we could guess that anything under 5mg of SD is pointless, but without comfirmation its a guess. we may find out that anything under 10mg at the end of a cycle is pointless like Unreal said. i agree that 10mg at the end is not the same as 10mg at the beginning. I'm interested in others opinions though. This is very interesting
Anything under 10 mg SD AFTER you have cycled already would in no way shape or form produce any gains.
10 mg of SD would maintain your gains no doubt after a cycle. I actually think that 5 mg SD would be enough to keep alot of the glycogen retention up as well as the new muscle built.
I think under 5 mg of SD is where things get interesting.
There are many people that run only 5 mg of SD and get great results so 5 mg SD is still strong and should be enough to sustain gains if it is capable of producing gains.
IMO 5 mg SD would sustain alot of the gains made on the cycle.
jpk
Member
Thx for the detailed breakdown CM. It seems that the better we understand these mechanisms, the better our chances of plotting out a strategy to maximize effects and minimize sides. As we speak I'm looking up the location of my shipment of Osta on the USPS website. I know it's real new compared to the stuff we've been using over the years but the combination of solid gains, few sides and what looks like minimal shutdown really has my attention. It looks like the bros are already using it for a cycle on its own, and as a part of a bridge or even PCT (this makes me a little nervous). And there's more SARMs in R & D right now that may offer even better benefits than Osta and S-4.
boricuarage
Banned
I am loving this thread. It is full of a lot of brainstorming and everyone putting their heads together. I have seen a lot of great ideas and I personally have learned a great deal just in this thread...just wanted to say that
I think thattapering down the dose to slowly come down is a great idea..up to a point. I think it would work at maintaining your gains and solidifying it until you reach a dose that is so minimal that is no longer effective. What that dose would be is open to speculation. we could guess that anything under 5mg of SD is pointless, but without comfirmation its a guess. we may find out that anything under 10mg at the end of a cycle is pointless like Unreal said. i agree that 10mg at the end is not the same as 10mg at the beginning. I'm interested in others opinions though. This is very interesting
True RickRock, but I want to comment about the 10 mg dose from beginning to end. It will not work for people who are use to taking SD, but what about someone who never experienced SD or any type of steroid for that matter. Receptors are fresh and maybe 10mg could work througout one cycle.
I know diablosho is going to run Superdrone at 10mg throughout his cycle. maybe he will post a log. I'll ask him..
hope I wasn't getting off the subject..
nevertheless I'm learning alot here and it's good to educate my buddies that don't know much.
boricuarage
Banned
I think this answers my question after My previous post
soontobbeast
Well-known member
I think you were on the right track with the 'come down', but i'm fairly certain that at <2.5mg SD, the probable continued detrimental effect on lipids certainly outweighs the possibly minute amount of preservation of LBM.
another way of looking at it is, while you are using the SERM you are taking a non aromatizing, estrogen suppressing steroid......if you say the amount is far too low to suppress estrogen/offset the HPTA , its probably far too low to preserve muscle or have any beneficial effect. but if it is high enough to keep preserving muscle, it *HAS* to be high enough to suppress estrogen and halt overall recovery .
so there are a couple options : A. taper down to 5mg by the end of week 7 then SERM.... or, B. pulse week 4-7..then SERM starting week 8
edit : highlighted edit
Segugio
New member
The 400:20 ratio of Superdrol is aligned to the 100:100 scale. It is measured to be four times as anabolic, and 1/5th as androgenic as Testosterone.
OnTheRoadTo
Active member
That makes a lot more sense. I'm shocked I never picked up on that. Thank you.
RickRock13
Well-known member
I think you have a very valid point here. The highlight of most of this thread has been on maximizing and keeping gains vs. minimal shutdown/liver toxicity and little has been said or mentioned about lipids and other effects on the body. I think that is where bloods would have to be continually monitored by someone attempting a cycle like this...
wastedwhiteboy2
Board Supporter
I'm late getting my 2 cents in but with the SD/test comparison that was not taken into consideration was the aromatization of test. Androgens are not the only way to suppress test. Estrogen helps shut a person down also. SD does not aromitize so I think the .3mg would be off some. Too many variables.
Also using the scale of 4 "on" and 1 normal. I think the goal of this is to be at a .8 for a longer pct instead of being at.2 and working our way up. I'm still sold on the idea. Even if we guess wrong and my pct puts me at .6, I still like that better than .2. And the fact that .6 is lower than the norm, test would be wanting to rise. I'd like to think starting at 1 and with a SERM alone you could achieve 1.2 levels.
Also using the scale of 4 "on" and 1 normal. I think the goal of this is to be at a .8 for a longer pct instead of being at.2 and working our way up. I'm still sold on the idea. Even if we guess wrong and my pct puts me at .6, I still like that better than .2. And the fact that .6 is lower than the norm, test would be wanting to rise. I'd like to think starting at 1 and with a SERM alone you could achieve 1.2 levels.