thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
.... it made me laugh :ntome:
Does science support the existence of God?
- Thread starter DR.D
- Start date
- Status
.... it made me laugh :ntome:
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
I would adopt Norm...one of my faves.
somewhatgifted
Registered User
Well Dsade if a man came to you with a book full of all the truths in life, whats the chances you would read it, belive it at face value and never question it?
somewhatgifted
Registered User
Well that is a really clever way to make my "big picture" ideology seem small and childish.
You will argue religion to the death if your motive is to do so. Many, if not most untimely deaths in human history are from this.
Your post perfectly demonstrates my point.
Youve isolated an area of my post you do not agree with and made a attack at my inteligence or ideology as if it were a threat to your own.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Zero...first, prove it is full of all of the truths in life. First rule of critical thought is to be prepared to question everything.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Countless horrors have been, and continue to be, perpetrated in the name of this mode of thought. I have not attacked your intelligence, just the core statement you made.
samva777
Member
Desade you are wrong
Einstein was not an atheist , your getting this idea from an atheist web site, here are more quotes from the person you said is an atheist.
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind
The relativity principle in connection with the basic Maxwellian equations demands that the mass should be a direct measure of the energy contained in a body; light transfers mass. With radium there should be a noticeable diminution of mass. The idea is amusing and enticing; but whether the Almighty is laughing at it and is leading me up the garden path - that I cannot know
Even more to the point, I do not ascribe special knowledge of "god" or anything else to someone who has a marked specialty that they are, admittedly, brilliant in. I give not a rat's behind that there are some scientists that are also religious (though the Einstein fallacy has been thoroughly debunked - he was an atheist and did not refer to anything remotely resembling a personal, christian god...so to bring that up yet again becomes a matter of deception), given that they have no special qualification nor access to special knowledge. Why not put as much credence in what Brad Pitt says about Physics?
Basically, what Einstein, or anyone else THINKS (readpinion) without demonstrating the PROCESS of thought which led to conclusions is irrelevant to the truth value...it is not an argument.
Einstein was not an atheist , your getting this idea from an atheist web site, here are more quotes from the person you said is an atheist.
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind
The relativity principle in connection with the basic Maxwellian equations demands that the mass should be a direct measure of the energy contained in a body; light transfers mass. With radium there should be a noticeable diminution of mass. The idea is amusing and enticing; but whether the Almighty is laughing at it and is leading me up the garden path - that I cannot know
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
I was under the impression that Einstein originally believed in a static universe (probably where dsade got atheism from: "the universe was never created by God"), only to debunk himself with his creation of special relativity.
Now we're delving into theoretical physics, which has about as much proof behind it as religion. Nix one small parameter that we don't know existed and the entire physics theory goes down the tubes.
Now we're delving into theoretical physics, which has about as much proof behind it as religion. Nix one small parameter that we don't know existed and the entire physics theory goes down the tubes.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Theist being defined as one who believes in a personal god, he most certainly WAS one.
We can play "find the quote" all day, with MANY long passages written by Einstein decrying the "lies" that the religious groups attempt to perpatrate by claiming him to be "one of them". He repeatedly discounts the idea of a personal god as ridiculous, and goes on the define what HE means by the term "god".
DR.D
Well-known member
Religious stuff is out of the schools and justice sytem, plus godless evolution IS taught as the standard in school, so your objection confused me. Even if it were true though, so what? Are you pouting or something? You have no monopoly on other people's beliefs. How insecure and arrogant are you that you can't tolerate another option? I still don't get it.
What you do is lower yourself to the same level as right-wing religion. Your error is a result of your hypocrisy. You going all the way left is just as erroneous as them going all the way right.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Evolution has zero to do with God - for or against - it teaches the science of evolution by natural selection, not origin of life. It is in SCIENCE class. The teachers are paid to teach SCIENCE, not cripple reason.
Not pouting at all...teach them anything you want at home. I tolerate that just fine.
samva777
Member
Incorrect , Deceptive
The Difference is you said Einstein was an Atheist and this is simply not true, An atheist is a person that doesnt believe in God , if Einsteins God is personal or impersonal does not matter the fact is he still believes the universe was Created by God. You are smart enough to know the difference yet in the face of the facts you choose to be deceptive to prove your argument.
The Difference is you said Einstein was an Atheist and this is simply not true, An atheist is a person that doesnt believe in God , if Einsteins God is personal or impersonal does not matter the fact is he still believes the universe was Created by God. You are smart enough to know the difference yet in the face of the facts you choose to be deceptive to prove your argument.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
"created by god"...you are assigning meaning where there is none. You are leaving quite a load of letters written by the man himself explaining.
So...if god means "the system of rules that coverns the way the universe works", you are quick to say "Hey, that person is NOT an atheist", even though his "god" scarcely resembles anything whatsoever...and thus manipulate the young and ignorant into making the appeal to authority fallacious argument.."well, Einstein was one of us and he was a smart guy".
samva777
Member
So this makes him one of yours
In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views
but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth
Read Biographys on Einstein not some trash you read on some communist , atheist site. You will find he believed in INTELLIGENT DESIGN not some crapshoot darwinism all happened by chance trash. If you pretend to not understand INTELLIGENT DESIGN I will be glad to explain it to you but I have enough faith in your intelligence.
In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views
but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth
Read Biographys on Einstein not some trash you read on some communist , atheist site. You will find he believed in INTELLIGENT DESIGN not some crapshoot darwinism all happened by chance trash. If you pretend to not understand INTELLIGENT DESIGN I will be glad to explain it to you but I have enough faith in your intelligence.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
DR.D
Well-known member
It makes no difference how you (or he) define 'god'. The point is that the laws of science, and arguably the greatest scientist to ever live, acknowledged god's existence. And you antagonize his conclusion. OK.
samva777
Member
So by Einsteins own words do you now see he does not wish to be associated with Atheist. Here is the quote again
In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views
but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth.
I think that quote pretty much sums up that you are wrong when you say Einstein is with Atheist when he clearly states here it makes him mad for atheist to say this.
Dont go off on another tangent 1 argument at a time do you conceed you were wrong in this statement?
In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views
but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth.
I think that quote pretty much sums up that you are wrong when you say Einstein is with Atheist when he clearly states here it makes him mad for atheist to say this.
Dont go off on another tangent 1 argument at a time do you conceed you were wrong in this statement?
samva777
Member
buster0371
Well-known member
If Patrick Arnold recognized god I would more likely be a follower than if Einstein's primitave ass did.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
YES!!! I DEFINE GOD AS "oxygen" I MUST BE A CHRISTIAN!!! ONE OF US, ONE OF US..>WE ACCEPT YOU, WE ACCEPT YOU, ONE OF US!!!
samva777
Member
I cant stop laughing
Sorry bro your comment made me think of Bill Clinton when cornered with undeniable truth that he had sex with monika he trys the lawyers trick of saying " It depends on what the meaning of the word is is" another notable quote "It depends on how you define alone"
Then there is the Granddaddy quote " There were a lot of times when we were alone, but I never really thought we were.
:haha:
I pray God works on you so you will become one of us
Sorry bro your comment made me think of Bill Clinton when cornered with undeniable truth that he had sex with monika he trys the lawyers trick of saying " It depends on what the meaning of the word is is" another notable quote "It depends on how you define alone"
Then there is the Granddaddy quote " There were a lot of times when we were alone, but I never really thought we were.
:haha:
I pray God works on you so you will become one of us
buster0371
Well-known member
im not real big on god. due to my girlfriend being muslim. but i will say this, notw has some cool shirts/stickers
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
To dsade: You know as much as I agree with you regarding the Bible, that it was written by people and has nothing to do with God, I don't understand why can't you even entertain the thought what if some higher intelligent power exist in the Universe? You keep asking for description of God. I gave it to you and you completely ignored it. Are you really that closed minded? Because you don't strike me as such...
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
That's unfortunate.
If this is your belief, I am sad to report that at t = [infinity] oxygen, as well as all other elements, degrade into Iron 57.
Maybe we should stop worrying about how to define God, and sue Timeless. A diamond is not forever. I mean, look at the thing, a carbon molecule with 4 sigma-bonds that forms a cubic lattice.... yeah... that'll last.
From some of your posts, I think you put too much faith in science. While I agree the scientific method is a lot more reliable than celestial logic, it's not without it's flaws.
Take, for instance, mass. Science can't explain mass, and yet people on this forum have been trying to build it for years. We don't even know WTF it is. Hell, some people don't even understand that there's a difference between weight and mass. Scientists have some ideas, but they don't know what the truth is. The same goes with gravity, pi back-bonding, or why Hawaiians like spam so damn much. It's simply an instance where we don't know what the hell is going on, so we give it a name and go from there. And that doesn't sound anything like what religions do: "Hey, where did everything come from?" "I dunno, maybe like some divinely powerful source made it. Let's call it YWH."
What's funny is we're so accustomed to these things (well mass and gravity, at least) that we think we know what we're talking about whenever we use these words. We don't know.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
We're comparing theory vs. theory, but you are treating one of which as fact. Where I went to high school, they did discuss divine creation as a viable theory (briefly, since most are pretty familiar with it). I don't see why it cannot be a viable theory, that an undefined influence created several species at once. Did we evolve from the beading of polar and nonpolar molecules? Or were several things put on the earth at once? Natural selection is a theory. So is divine creationism.
........so is global warming, which is damn near taught as fact.
somewhatgifted
Registered User
The problem with this whole discussion based upon science is by nature almost impossible to say for sure that anything is fact. You can say water is water: fact. Well in reality every atom is made of subatomic particles. Protons, neutrons, electrons and quarks all essentially are empty space and energy.
From the limited perspective of viewing the world through what science is able to explain, is by no means to be interpretd as science created anything . Life is life and science is only a languange from which we are able to understand small insignificant details.
I agree that "god" is in everything as we all, and everything else on this planet are made of energy. The most cutting edge, newest and most relevant science is unravelling that we know nothing at all and my body is not actually made of meat, it is energy.
From this knowing its impossible to deny that the energy has a source, creator or origin.
This is god to me it can be a flower, animal or human being as "godliness" refers to an attitue that reflects the fact that we are one and the same as a race and equal with the planet that sustains us.
In science it is not feasible to formulate a fact without starting your experiment with proven facts. But by nature all of science had worked in the opposite way only more recently realising that as we move smaller and smaller we are still learning about the very basis of "what" we really are made of as well as everything else.
How can i determine that a sword is made of iron and copper if i dont really know what iron and copper are? From a materialistic sense where the learning of a name is the greatest asset this may be helpfull. But to question god using science is almost rediculous, since science is only a compliation of what we can expect based upon very very limited information.
Then to live our lives by this comfort of knowing facts and being dissmissive of things that may be potentially true but beyond our expectations, understanding and perspectives.
Sciece may be the blanket over your eyes in the dark when all you have to do is look and you will see that there is nothing to fear in the dark (metaphor for the unkown or unproven by science).
BUT if you follow science and use its information to assist in the formulation of your opinions, gathering information from any source, always open, questioning as Dsade mentions and also keeping in mind that you may pass by a great truth if you look too much in one place.
I have my own ideas and science will not deter me if i "know" something, as my efforts to find truth may uncover more truth than science due to its dissmissal of the unexplainable.
Science is a great language and means for communication, it gives you a word where there may not otherwise be one for which you speak of and many like minded spiritual people will have the same opinions only to realise, through science, a way to crossreference and communicate a feeling, thought or phenomena.
Science does not answer questions without someone who already, potentially without rational cause,"believed" in something and "found" it with science.
Science is a compilation of mans ideas and thoughts that did not neccessarily become accepted or believed until there was a "meat" to prove it. Science puts a belief on paper for the non believers to follow, science leads those who cannot have faith in themselves, or anything else, without validation or "proof".
From the limited perspective of viewing the world through what science is able to explain, is by no means to be interpretd as science created anything . Life is life and science is only a languange from which we are able to understand small insignificant details.
I agree that "god" is in everything as we all, and everything else on this planet are made of energy. The most cutting edge, newest and most relevant science is unravelling that we know nothing at all and my body is not actually made of meat, it is energy.
From this knowing its impossible to deny that the energy has a source, creator or origin.
This is god to me it can be a flower, animal or human being as "godliness" refers to an attitue that reflects the fact that we are one and the same as a race and equal with the planet that sustains us.
In science it is not feasible to formulate a fact without starting your experiment with proven facts. But by nature all of science had worked in the opposite way only more recently realising that as we move smaller and smaller we are still learning about the very basis of "what" we really are made of as well as everything else.
How can i determine that a sword is made of iron and copper if i dont really know what iron and copper are? From a materialistic sense where the learning of a name is the greatest asset this may be helpfull. But to question god using science is almost rediculous, since science is only a compliation of what we can expect based upon very very limited information.
Then to live our lives by this comfort of knowing facts and being dissmissive of things that may be potentially true but beyond our expectations, understanding and perspectives.
Sciece may be the blanket over your eyes in the dark when all you have to do is look and you will see that there is nothing to fear in the dark (metaphor for the unkown or unproven by science).
BUT if you follow science and use its information to assist in the formulation of your opinions, gathering information from any source, always open, questioning as Dsade mentions and also keeping in mind that you may pass by a great truth if you look too much in one place.
I have my own ideas and science will not deter me if i "know" something, as my efforts to find truth may uncover more truth than science due to its dissmissal of the unexplainable.
Science is a great language and means for communication, it gives you a word where there may not otherwise be one for which you speak of and many like minded spiritual people will have the same opinions only to realise, through science, a way to crossreference and communicate a feeling, thought or phenomena.
Science does not answer questions without someone who already, potentially without rational cause,"believed" in something and "found" it with science.
Science is a compilation of mans ideas and thoughts that did not neccessarily become accepted or believed until there was a "meat" to prove it. Science puts a belief on paper for the non believers to follow, science leads those who cannot have faith in themselves, or anything else, without validation or "proof".
oblivious
New member
Im sorry for my terrible wording, its late, im dead tire, but I did want to get this point out while on the subject.
I will preface this with I did not yet get to read the entire thread, but most assuredly will. If my question has been answered/discussed please just reference the post and I will read up thanks.
Most of the OP made reference to the fact that science and math supported creationism, due to singularity, and so fourth. Ive spent some time considering quite a few facets of religion, and I also eventually reached this line of thinking. However what always seemed paradoxical to me, was the fact that since we can not explain or justify the begging of life/existence we supplement supernatural theory (God) to fill in the gaps if you will.
...So if all things need to be "designed by a designer" for lack of energy to produce a better summation of the theory discussed in the OP. Why then, does that theory not apply to God itself. Such that God himself would need to have a beginning/designer/origin what have you. And then again who or what created the "God of God"
Though much of what Dr.D laid out makes sense to me, apart from just accepting "Alpha and Omega" which seems irrational and only held together by faith. I find myself caught in yet another paradoxical mystery with no answer.
I will preface this with I did not yet get to read the entire thread, but most assuredly will. If my question has been answered/discussed please just reference the post and I will read up thanks.
Most of the OP made reference to the fact that science and math supported creationism, due to singularity, and so fourth. Ive spent some time considering quite a few facets of religion, and I also eventually reached this line of thinking. However what always seemed paradoxical to me, was the fact that since we can not explain or justify the begging of life/existence we supplement supernatural theory (God) to fill in the gaps if you will.
...So if all things need to be "designed by a designer" for lack of energy to produce a better summation of the theory discussed in the OP. Why then, does that theory not apply to God itself. Such that God himself would need to have a beginning/designer/origin what have you. And then again who or what created the "God of God"
Though much of what Dr.D laid out makes sense to me, apart from just accepting "Alpha and Omega" which seems irrational and only held together by faith. I find myself caught in yet another paradoxical mystery with no answer.
jumpcannon
New member
actually everyone can stop all this right now. because i am god! no i did not create anything, science did. so i am gonna bless you all right now. and you are all my little children, so its safe to call me daddy. i am laughing my a$$ off, i know i am gonna get crap for this. lighten up everybody! i know all this finding the truth stuff can be frusturating for ya. but keep thinking and you will find the answers!
isoc
Member
One thing I notice, and this is also from personal experience, is that when something really bad is happening, some people become believers. I speak from personal experience, as I once did not care about God, in fact I thought both sides of this conversation were fools, I just existed, and did what I wanted, and was fairly good at it. I had a professional job, a masters level education, was big, strong, partied a lot, didnt have to pay cover at popular clubs, didnt always have good looking or classy women, but I almost always had a woman, and though wasnt rich, I didnt have money problems, yet I had lost control of life, although some envied my lifestyle. Although all of the above still held true, and by most peoples thoughts I should have been extremely happy, I was on the verge of losing it and in desperation turned to God, and got my life back on track.
I do not hope everyone who doesnt believe has to go through times like I did, nor do I begrudge anyone who will come to belief when hard times hit, in fact I encourage it. I know that many will say, it just gave you something to believe in, changes could have been made and others have done without religion, etc. I only post this in hopes that if anyone at some point is going through the worst, that maybe they remember this and at that point believe. When all else has failed, at the most desperate moment He is there. God does not turn people away, it does not matter what happened before, what matters is belief at that moment. In fact there is a Bible story where a man hired workers in the morning, afternoon, and evening, and at the end of the day, all received the same wage. It does not matter when in life you ask for salvation, it just matters that you ask.
And yes, I did seek out a church. I know even some believers dont like that, and there are good reasons as some pastors do take advantage. However, not only is it commanded in the Bible (Paul spoke of the importance of coming togehter as believers in his epistles), it makes sense. If one becomes interested in fitness/lifting, AnabolicMinds.com is a great place to come to get knowledge because we have people here who have studied in these areas. The same applies for God, in general, churches have people (pastors) who have studied God and do know more than we who have not studied. I know less about supplements and fitness than Dsade and Dr D (and probably a lot of others here) as that is their profession, just as knowing about God is the profession of a pastor. There are charlatans out there, but church is a good place for the believer and will aid in spiritual growth.
I do not hope everyone who doesnt believe has to go through times like I did, nor do I begrudge anyone who will come to belief when hard times hit, in fact I encourage it. I know that many will say, it just gave you something to believe in, changes could have been made and others have done without religion, etc. I only post this in hopes that if anyone at some point is going through the worst, that maybe they remember this and at that point believe. When all else has failed, at the most desperate moment He is there. God does not turn people away, it does not matter what happened before, what matters is belief at that moment. In fact there is a Bible story where a man hired workers in the morning, afternoon, and evening, and at the end of the day, all received the same wage. It does not matter when in life you ask for salvation, it just matters that you ask.
And yes, I did seek out a church. I know even some believers dont like that, and there are good reasons as some pastors do take advantage. However, not only is it commanded in the Bible (Paul spoke of the importance of coming togehter as believers in his epistles), it makes sense. If one becomes interested in fitness/lifting, AnabolicMinds.com is a great place to come to get knowledge because we have people here who have studied in these areas. The same applies for God, in general, churches have people (pastors) who have studied God and do know more than we who have not studied. I know less about supplements and fitness than Dsade and Dr D (and probably a lot of others here) as that is their profession, just as knowing about God is the profession of a pastor. There are charlatans out there, but church is a good place for the believer and will aid in spiritual growth.
samva777
Member
Here is the answer
A Human can only grasp a small portion of Gods makeup or his thoughts and this is only by God creating us in his image not equal to but an image there of. Because of this we have some Godlike qualities but fall very short of the originator. At this very moment the common thought amongst the great thinkers of the day are that there are multiple universes and 11 diminesions. The point is for you to fully understand the Creators Mind you would have to be on his level and we are not on his level but some great thinkers can scratch the surface. Then you have doubts about how can God be with out some God creating God, my only answer is are minds are to small to fathom it but its probably childs play to God just like the physicist now believe there are 11 dimensions "superstring theory" but these dimensions we can not see most humans think in 3 dimensions but according to superstring theory there are at least 11. Some animals due to there limited brain and environment think only in 2 dimensions so the thoughts concomitant to 3 dimensional thinking is as alien to these animals as thinking past 3 dimensions is to most humans and only physicist through years of study can get a minor glimpse of these other dimensions.
Lastly the greatest mind to ever try to grasp the thoughts of God believed in an orderly universe created by intelligent design I.E. God he tried to prove it and came up with E=mc2 and often argued with lesser scientist who thought the universe is an unorderly hodge podge Finaly he states God does not play dice with the universe meaning the universe has orderly laws to it remember before E=MC2 scientist had no idea that mass and energy are interchangeable but this is an orderly equation on one of the laws of the universe. Its just are feeble minds took someone with years of schooling to figure it out. Its enough for me I see gods work in every portion of this world God Created. The Atheist can not even prove Darwinism in a laboratory environment so I dont see how they have such blind faith with out even anecdotal evidence much less scientific evidence.
Then the atheist like to point out all the bad man has done in Gods name as if there some how protecting us from God yet many of the mass murders were done by pagans I.E. Romans before conversion you get the word Decimation from Pagan practice of killing every 10th soldier to put fear in the ranks of the soldiers being spared , this was A pagan practivce or to a more recent time Nazi ideology was based on paganism.
Lastly not one animal on this earth is even close in capability to that of humans we are unique if the aetheist were correct and there God Darwin then it stands to reason there would be other life forms with the capabilities of humans through thousands of years of atheist belief in evolution , I ask then why has this not happened. The answer is in the Bible as God gave humans dominion over all the earth and everything contained therein. I dont think God would want us to have Dominon over other beings that were equal to us in mentality and spirit.
A Human can only grasp a small portion of Gods makeup or his thoughts and this is only by God creating us in his image not equal to but an image there of. Because of this we have some Godlike qualities but fall very short of the originator. At this very moment the common thought amongst the great thinkers of the day are that there are multiple universes and 11 diminesions. The point is for you to fully understand the Creators Mind you would have to be on his level and we are not on his level but some great thinkers can scratch the surface. Then you have doubts about how can God be with out some God creating God, my only answer is are minds are to small to fathom it but its probably childs play to God just like the physicist now believe there are 11 dimensions "superstring theory" but these dimensions we can not see most humans think in 3 dimensions but according to superstring theory there are at least 11. Some animals due to there limited brain and environment think only in 2 dimensions so the thoughts concomitant to 3 dimensional thinking is as alien to these animals as thinking past 3 dimensions is to most humans and only physicist through years of study can get a minor glimpse of these other dimensions.
Lastly the greatest mind to ever try to grasp the thoughts of God believed in an orderly universe created by intelligent design I.E. God he tried to prove it and came up with E=mc2 and often argued with lesser scientist who thought the universe is an unorderly hodge podge Finaly he states God does not play dice with the universe meaning the universe has orderly laws to it remember before E=MC2 scientist had no idea that mass and energy are interchangeable but this is an orderly equation on one of the laws of the universe. Its just are feeble minds took someone with years of schooling to figure it out. Its enough for me I see gods work in every portion of this world God Created. The Atheist can not even prove Darwinism in a laboratory environment so I dont see how they have such blind faith with out even anecdotal evidence much less scientific evidence.
Then the atheist like to point out all the bad man has done in Gods name as if there some how protecting us from God yet many of the mass murders were done by pagans I.E. Romans before conversion you get the word Decimation from Pagan practice of killing every 10th soldier to put fear in the ranks of the soldiers being spared , this was A pagan practivce or to a more recent time Nazi ideology was based on paganism.
Lastly not one animal on this earth is even close in capability to that of humans we are unique if the aetheist were correct and there God Darwin then it stands to reason there would be other life forms with the capabilities of humans through thousands of years of atheist belief in evolution , I ask then why has this not happened. The answer is in the Bible as God gave humans dominion over all the earth and everything contained therein. I dont think God would want us to have Dominon over other beings that were equal to us in mentality and spirit.
carpee
Well-known member
Definitely agreed. I wish I could give a scientifically definitive answer about God, but I cannot. God is God and we are men, that is the way it is. We will never fully understand it...but the bottom line of the bible is that we are able to have a relationship with God.
buster0371
Well-known member
do you see a little bit of god in everybody? i do
andrew732
Well-known member
I assume you mean the kind, and loving nature that one offers to another, then I suppose one can word it like that. God is very real, that is all I can say, there are no if and's or but's.
B5150
Legend
"The man who is spiritually dead hates God, rebels against Him, and can do no other, for "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned". And if you have not got the spiritual faculty you cannot discern them. If that is lacking in a man, and he is completely dead, how can he discern them - He cannot; and, of course, the world is proving that very thing today. Total inability!"
AE14
Board Sponsor
just bascially going on what Samva said, since us humans can only "grasp a small portion of god's makeup" then obviously the rest is based on faith. With that said, since there is no logic in faith (based on an earlier part of this thread) then believing in god is not logical.
Additionally, since both OT and NT have been altered and retranslated on countless occassions, using them as a basis of belief is also illogical. In essence, it is just as likely to believe that little grey aliens commenced life on this planet through scientific experiments, and they are the "gods" mentioned in the OT. Since there is no evidence for each, I like the Close Encounters version better/
Additionally, since both OT and NT have been altered and retranslated on countless occassions, using them as a basis of belief is also illogical. In essence, it is just as likely to believe that little grey aliens commenced life on this planet through scientific experiments, and they are the "gods" mentioned in the OT. Since there is no evidence for each, I like the Close Encounters version better/
isoc
Member
Reaper, you are correct, faith in God and especially living by faith, is illogical from a humanistic standpoint. However, your points about the Bible and retranslation, etc. may be a little off. Do you doubt Shakespeare, the Greek philospophers, or any other ancient text? These have also been translated many times, has their value been lost? If you think so, then that is fine, however, I would see a little bit of a double standard if one were to say the Bible has lost all meaning in translation, and yet believe the modern translations of Socrates were valid. I do not mean to "call you out", or be antogonistic, I just want to point something out that I actually never thought about. I used to think the same thing about the Bible, but I took a Philosophy class, and logic class in college and had no trouble accepting the validity of the texts presented in those classes. I will add that it was not until after I became a Christian that I saw my own double standard, so you can take that for what its worth.
AE14
Board Sponsor
While I understand your point I do not consider shalespeare ancient. I do also believe that ancient greek texts have not been (generally) retranslated through a variety of languages theyway the OT and NT have, for obvious reasons. However, if they had, then their validity is most certainly in question.
At the end of the day, when biblical stories are read one can make a variety of assumptions about what is being said, hence my alien thoughts earlier. In fact, based on the OT, it seems more likely that it is aliens and not gods (plural).
Regarding the NT, there have been so many retranslations and so many times that acceptable works have been changed, that it is difficult to believe what is now "accepted". At least for me.
At the end of the day, when biblical stories are read one can make a variety of assumptions about what is being said, hence my alien thoughts earlier. In fact, based on the OT, it seems more likely that it is aliens and not gods (plural).
Regarding the NT, there have been so many retranslations and so many times that acceptable works have been changed, that it is difficult to believe what is now "accepted". At least for me.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
As much as I believe in God, I would completely agree with Reaper. Bible has zero valid info in my eyes for that same reason Reaper said.
I asked this question many time in different threads, but nobody answered yet...
Who is John? When everyone so quick to refer John 3:16 and because of this one little verse make up entire belief system. How do you know he ever said that? What kind of proof do you have?
isoc
Member
Each person can choose what to believe, how to interpret, etc., that is the basis of free will, it is God's desire and the christians job to present the Gospel, but not too force belief on anyone.
The Bible was recorded in Hebrew/Arabic text, however, especially the NT, was written at a time when Isreal was under Roman rule and in fact Paul spent much time away from Jerusalem. The translation of his epistles, which make up a large portion of the NT, and where the Gospel of Grace is most precisely expounded, probably did not happen years later, as most of the churches he wrote to were located in Greece, and the Roman empire. In fact, followers of logic such as Stoics were mentioned in the NT. I dont think the Bible is as ancient and out of touch as many may think.
As far as interpretation goes, have you ever thougth of taking it at its word? Is the story any less believable that it really was God doing the miracles of the OT and NT than an alien(s)? And it is not only interpretation of aliens, that I am bringing into question, it is all of us, why are we all experts on the Bible and God, including me? Too many times I hear, I believe this part, but not that part, or I know it says that, but I think it means this, or that doesnt apply now, the world has changed. Has anyone ever thought that if it says something, that is what it means, and it means the same thing then as now? We dont have to like, or understand something for it to be true. I am not attacking, and maybe over simplifying, but I think we try to outsmart ourselves, or prove our own intelligence and miss the mark because of it, and I am guilty of that myself. I was, and unfortunately continue to be, an offender in many areas. I do not try to post to justify myself, as I am no better than anyone else, only to attempt to get people to give God a chance, and not for any reason other than it helped me immensely and I think it could be a positive to anyone.
Actually all these things are covered in the Bible, it states that the wisdom of men is foolishness to God, and vice versa. It also states that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow as are His laws, and that we are not to add or subtract from the word of God.
The Bible was recorded in Hebrew/Arabic text, however, especially the NT, was written at a time when Isreal was under Roman rule and in fact Paul spent much time away from Jerusalem. The translation of his epistles, which make up a large portion of the NT, and where the Gospel of Grace is most precisely expounded, probably did not happen years later, as most of the churches he wrote to were located in Greece, and the Roman empire. In fact, followers of logic such as Stoics were mentioned in the NT. I dont think the Bible is as ancient and out of touch as many may think.
As far as interpretation goes, have you ever thougth of taking it at its word? Is the story any less believable that it really was God doing the miracles of the OT and NT than an alien(s)? And it is not only interpretation of aliens, that I am bringing into question, it is all of us, why are we all experts on the Bible and God, including me? Too many times I hear, I believe this part, but not that part, or I know it says that, but I think it means this, or that doesnt apply now, the world has changed. Has anyone ever thought that if it says something, that is what it means, and it means the same thing then as now? We dont have to like, or understand something for it to be true. I am not attacking, and maybe over simplifying, but I think we try to outsmart ourselves, or prove our own intelligence and miss the mark because of it, and I am guilty of that myself. I was, and unfortunately continue to be, an offender in many areas. I do not try to post to justify myself, as I am no better than anyone else, only to attempt to get people to give God a chance, and not for any reason other than it helped me immensely and I think it could be a positive to anyone.
Actually all these things are covered in the Bible, it states that the wisdom of men is foolishness to God, and vice versa. It also states that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow as are His laws, and that we are not to add or subtract from the word of God.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
Study "time" and "Einstein" a little more. Time, as space and energy is a dimension of the universe. Without energetic activity and space time would not exist. So there is no beginning or end regarding energy. It's always there in one form or another. Just like God.
isoc
Member
John was one of the original apostles, so He was very close to Jesus. As far as proof, I have none, but that is the same amount of proof that there is for any text that was written before anyone alive today was born. Again, how do we know Socrates, or Plato, or Buddha, or Confuscious, or anyone wrote anything.
As far as that verse making up the belief system, that is incorrect, it may be a nice summary, but the entire Bible points to that fact. The entire book of Romans, and much of the NT, is about that, even the OT. God sent Moses, a redeemer type, to lead His people out of Egypt. Noah, acting by faith, built the arc to save himslef and his family, as today, we believe on Jesus and by faith receive eternal life, many of the prophecies of the OT speak of a savior and of his suffering, many of the psalms speak of justification by faith. that single verse is a nice summary, but it is a part of the whole and the whole all points either forward to (OT) or back to (NT) Jesus Christ.
As far as that verse making up the belief system, that is incorrect, it may be a nice summary, but the entire Bible points to that fact. The entire book of Romans, and much of the NT, is about that, even the OT. God sent Moses, a redeemer type, to lead His people out of Egypt. Noah, acting by faith, built the arc to save himslef and his family, as today, we believe on Jesus and by faith receive eternal life, many of the prophecies of the OT speak of a savior and of his suffering, many of the psalms speak of justification by faith. that single verse is a nice summary, but it is a part of the whole and the whole all points either forward to (OT) or back to (NT) Jesus Christ.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
This is the point I have been trying to make....IF it is taken literally then it is garbage...evil disgusting garbage.
isoc
Member
I do take it literally, but I dont think it is garbage or evil, (though I may be, although I have become better since believing) but that is your choice and I will not argue over a decision already made, as I stated, if God allows free will, who am I to try to force someone to change. However, if you ever do feel differently, feel free to pm me. And that is not stated as a joke, or in any type of derogatory manner at all, but a desire to help if I am able.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
So since God gave everyone free will, and lets say Dsade doesn't find enough evidence to believe in your "Bible God" as you do, he will go to "hell", if you take it literally. Right? How is it free will?
Right... Because sending someone to "hell" isn't evil...
isoc
Member
Unfortunately that is true, it is free will because all have the right to choose to believe or not to believe. Belief is a choice, I have no more physical proof than anyone else, but I choose to believe. And before the fairness issue is brought up, if you believe in the Bible then you believe the penalty for sin, which we all sin, is eternal death, or hell. So just by believing, I avoid my rightful punishment, so yes, Biblically it is not fair, but the unfairness is to our benefit. If you dont believe in the Bible then you cannot judge fairness as it relates to salvation. Trust me, I am not worthy of Heaven, I fail all the time, so I am not some holier-than-thou, and I in no way shape or form want Dsade, or anyone else to go to hell, nor do I condemn him or anyone else, as best I can I have attempted to state Biblical facts and the simplicity of salvation in an attempt to persuade or get people to think about it. I am very sorry if I have offended and pushed people farther away. Not everyone has to believe everything in the Bible, nor even like all of the Bible, nor even go to church, it only takes faith in Jesus Christ, just that one part. The rest I have attempted to use to point towards that one area, without saving faith, the rest of the Bible is useless, church attendance is useless.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
No ...belief is NOT a choice. If you tried really, really hard could you HONESTLY believe that unicorn-riding leprechauns drag the stars around behind them?
Ok..then CHOOSE to believe it...did that work yet?
Belief is a state culminating from conversion by evidence into a state of belief. The quality of the evidence one might accept may be lower or higher, allowing for much less rigorous proof for "belief" (Janie up the street said it..so I believe it) but it is still not a matter of choice which is another point I've been trying to make.
/can't believe I am back in here with as much work as I have...yeah yeah yeah, go ship more STRANGE shots, I know.
isoc
Member
yes, get back to work! I would like a non-hormonal anabolic that works as well as Havoc, but with no suppression, and well while we are at it, no negative sides of any kind, and also can we get that within the next month or so, at a good price point so we can all run it by summer.
I do have to disagree a little about belief not being a choice. I did oversimplify in that, yes persuasion in the form of some proof is needed. However, in the case of God, there is no physical proof that will 100% satisfy, that is where the aspect of faith comes in. If you are going to believe in God, at some point you have to "take a leap of faith", we have the Bible, there are many people who can give personal testimonies of changed lives. I speak from experience, I did not get saved until a handful of years ago, I never went to church as an adult, but had a few people talk to me about God and being a Christian, and eventually, I did make the choice to believe. I had tried to run my life the way I saw fit and nothing was working and it may have been out of desperation, but I chose to believe and try this "Christian thing" out and never looked back.
I know you will say, how is this fair, I want more proof, why wont God give me more, I dont want to hear Isoc, and these other idiots talk about the Bible, changes made in their lives, etc, I want God to come to me face to face and I want an explanation. I can honestly say I dont think that will happen, but I hope something close enough does happen to change your mind, and any others who doubt.
I do have to disagree a little about belief not being a choice. I did oversimplify in that, yes persuasion in the form of some proof is needed. However, in the case of God, there is no physical proof that will 100% satisfy, that is where the aspect of faith comes in. If you are going to believe in God, at some point you have to "take a leap of faith", we have the Bible, there are many people who can give personal testimonies of changed lives. I speak from experience, I did not get saved until a handful of years ago, I never went to church as an adult, but had a few people talk to me about God and being a Christian, and eventually, I did make the choice to believe. I had tried to run my life the way I saw fit and nothing was working and it may have been out of desperation, but I chose to believe and try this "Christian thing" out and never looked back.
I know you will say, how is this fair, I want more proof, why wont God give me more, I dont want to hear Isoc, and these other idiots talk about the Bible, changes made in their lives, etc, I want God to come to me face to face and I want an explanation. I can honestly say I dont think that will happen, but I hope something close enough does happen to change your mind, and any others who doubt.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
isoc
Member
8 weeks is still good, and I see your point, yes belief in any God takes faith, I completely agree, and your point is how do you know the Christian God is the real God and not Allah, or one of the Hindu God, and we are back to square one with faith, which cannot be substantiated and your point is I dont want to be choosing the wrong God, and no religion has any legitimate proof so I am going to believe in no God.
As I stated earlier, this thread is less about us, and more about people whose minds are not made up. I am willing to risk the wrath of some god if I am wrong, or the loss of worldly pleasure, and non believers are willing to risk the wrath of a god if they are wrong. To a certain extent we are both willing to risk our lives for our beliefs, those are pretty strong beliefs and will take more than an on line discussion to change us. However, for those searching we have given much to think about.
Now seriously, we need some substance, or combination, that will cause noticeable changes in body comp and strength, for even the experienced hormone user, that is safe, legal and readily accessible, and does not need pct, and works for 90+% of users. I mean, how many non-repsonders were there to Havoc, vs how many non-responders there are to test boosters, etc. As I get older, I am more and more worried about hpta recovery, and in todays negative environment surrounding performance enhancers the quasi-legal status and sides of the compounds to aid in recovery. Maybe this is a different thread, sorry.
As I stated earlier, this thread is less about us, and more about people whose minds are not made up. I am willing to risk the wrath of some god if I am wrong, or the loss of worldly pleasure, and non believers are willing to risk the wrath of a god if they are wrong. To a certain extent we are both willing to risk our lives for our beliefs, those are pretty strong beliefs and will take more than an on line discussion to change us. However, for those searching we have given much to think about.
Now seriously, we need some substance, or combination, that will cause noticeable changes in body comp and strength, for even the experienced hormone user, that is safe, legal and readily accessible, and does not need pct, and works for 90+% of users. I mean, how many non-repsonders were there to Havoc, vs how many non-responders there are to test boosters, etc. As I get older, I am more and more worried about hpta recovery, and in todays negative environment surrounding performance enhancers the quasi-legal status and sides of the compounds to aid in recovery. Maybe this is a different thread, sorry.
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