dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
I'm actually popping the final touches on an HPTA/LH stimulator and test booster. Taking my time with this one, though, to make it just right.
Does science support the existence of God?
- Thread starter DR.D
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I'm actually popping the final touches on an HPTA/LH stimulator and test booster. Taking my time with this one, though, to make it just right.
getbigbyjune
Member
hahahahaha that's funny man. lol i would like to say that muslims do believe in a god lol hes called allah and he is one crazy ass motha ****a lol. any way heres my input on this subject. My mother is a full blown conservative christian and my father is a full blown atheist. So, as you can imagine, i get this debate pretty much every dinner. From what I have gathered over the years this is what i have come up with and this is what I have done. My father always says, Well how do we know if theres a heaven or a hell or how do we know he exists or the Bible was a conspiracy and all this other crap. This is what I have done. I am going with the Christian thing BECAUSE. If the is a heaven great I WILL BE IN THE CLEAR. if there is not, then i don't have a problem and we all stay in the ground for eternity or reincarnate into something else. I don't understand atheists or other people that deny God, because wouldn't you at least wanna be on the safe side? because im not one of those people who goes to church every sunday or reads the bible and has a devotional but i do stay on the safe side so that when i die, I am in the clear IF there is a heaven. If the atheists are right,then I at least tried and at leas had a backup plan. Anybody agree?
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Another version of Pascal's Wager, covered above.
Problem: There are thousands of religions in the world - all with equal evidence (none) and all claiming the same thing (at their core). You are choosing to pick one out of thousands with the penalty for choosing WRONG to be damnation as a heretic - not just a skeptical non-believer.
getbigbyjune
Member
i see ur point man but im not going to completely ignore or go complete atheist cause their are soooooooooooo many intermidiate links that haven't been close to being filled and i don't want to shun God out cause when looking at the human body and how complicated everything is, im never going to buy the whole it all happened by chance thing because its just tooooooooooo rediculously complicated that its very evident that there is a creator
isoc
Member
It is crazy how many different religions there are, and even just look at two of the major religions, Christianity and Islam, and look at the fractions within those two religions, there are many different sects, different traditions, etc. It is a shame to a certain degree, as we will have christians arguing amongst each other, what is a non believer to think. I attend an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, and I like it, I also trust what is being taught, however I am not foolish enough to believe that we, or any other sect has it 100% right, although church is a great way to find out about God, to grow in faith, etc. Too often we get caught up in a bunch of minutia, we make many of the same mistakes the Jewish religion at the time of Jesus had done, taking the traditions of man and making them the commandments of God, we try to earn what is being given as a gift, and that is eternal life.
Now I do try to live a good, and moral life because I want to be a good reflection on God, and obediance is a way to show Him love and respect, but it is too easy to get caught up in the minor details and miss the big picture. Nothing in the Bible really makes sense if taken out of the context of salvation. Otherwise it is just action for actions sake, traditions of man, there is no eternal significance.
On a side note, will be looking forward to that product Dsade
Now I do try to live a good, and moral life because I want to be a good reflection on God, and obediance is a way to show Him love and respect, but it is too easy to get caught up in the minor details and miss the big picture. Nothing in the Bible really makes sense if taken out of the context of salvation. Otherwise it is just action for actions sake, traditions of man, there is no eternal significance.
On a side note, will be looking forward to that product Dsade
somewhatgifted
Registered User
I find far too many place their, belief, ideas, arguments and criticisms upon men in the name of god. Arguing the validity of the bible to me seems futile as we know it was written by men and therefore cannot be taken at face value. In itself it says to take gods word as is and not to alter his laws. It talks candidly about punishment and the emotion and favorable standing with god. This in itself does not mesh with what god is to me so i DO reinterpret what it may mean.
The messages are not to be taken at word value in some instances IMO but like many things in life, lessons that you work for are the most rewarding and we must spend our whole lives understanding the ideas mentioned to us.
Time reveals what is truly important and the word of god can be missused, missunderstood and used for evil without a genuine interest in self improvement, peace and love.
If your ideals and motivations are not honorable then you will never benefit from anything outside of your own pain and sacrifice of learning through failure.
The messages are not to be taken at word value in some instances IMO but like many things in life, lessons that you work for are the most rewarding and we must spend our whole lives understanding the ideas mentioned to us.
Time reveals what is truly important and the word of god can be missused, missunderstood and used for evil without a genuine interest in self improvement, peace and love.
If your ideals and motivations are not honorable then you will never benefit from anything outside of your own pain and sacrifice of learning through failure.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
This is pretty close to my philosophy...and there is no god necessary.
Healthy attitude, IMO.
samva777
Member
Its Easy
You can listen to 1 person called Desade and gain absolutly NOTHING or you can do like Most of the people in the world do and believe in God its the first step Towards a personal relationship that will gain you more than any of the riches in this world could give you.
You can listen to 1 person called Desade and gain absolutly NOTHING or you can do like Most of the people in the world do and believe in God its the first step Towards a personal relationship that will gain you more than any of the riches in this world could give you.
B5150
Legend
I sort of take exception to statements like this.
dsade may in fact demonstrate greater "Christ-Like Character" than many Christian's do, yet today may not have had an experience that has resulted in a relationship with Christ.
I am Christian and know "Christians" who would make Matt look like an Evangelist.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
I guarantee you "most people" do not share your definition of god.
somewhatgifted
Registered User
This is my issue with religions, i think people should have their own ideas interpretations and realtionship with god and/or understanding of themselves.
Its not a popular opinion club rather god/spirituality is the motivation and purpose that most guide their lives by. All that matters is that you are enabled to be what makes you most happy.
Zero V
Well-known member
often times that is what drives people to put God in the backseat...
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
B5150
Legend
Seems contradictory. A god is served or worshiped for his happiness, not our own.
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Phil Connors: "I'm a god. I'm not *the* God... I don't think." - Groundhog Day
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
I think what the "gyst" is supposed to be is that for those created to serve, their happiness SHOULD come from serving. Therefore, worshipping, et al should satisfy every personage in the "arrangement".
So, yeah, it is THEIR happiness that they are seeking - but that it's not incompatible with what this particular version of god demands.
high five!
B5150
Legend
Correct.
Yet within it's practical application there are many instances where happiness of our own takes a back seat for the purpose of obedience.
For examples:
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight."
"Love your neighbor as yourself."
"Forgive other because you have been forgiven much."
"Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the LORD; trust in him and he will do this: He will make your righteousness shine like the dawn, the justice of your cause like the noonday sun."
Happiness, in and of itself, is not a promise
Indeed serving God does not escape an inherent selfish motive.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Religions are like organisms. They reproduce, die, and sometimes mutate or evolve. (This is more in reference to the other person's post you had quoted). Islam and Judaism were both derrived from the two sons of Abraham: Ishmael and Israel. Christianity is derrived more from Judaism, however, there are many muslim beliefs which are akin. For instance, they do believe in Jesus Christ to a certain degree. Allah is not crazy, as sanity is arbitrary and ethnographically defined. The media has just done probably the worst job in portraying Islamic belief. I believe I made reference to this in another post, but with regards to dangerous christian groups. If you give a bad person a book of religion, he can use it for bad. :borladuck:
Your stance and defense in this thead has always been to take the scientific route, and never take accept anything for face value, which is a self-contradicting thing to say.
To keep everything truly within the scientific realm would require one to be an agnostic. Agnostism is your defense against Pascal's wager time and time again. The problem with that is now are potentially cursed to eternal damnation for failing to choose a religion. Heaven help me, I hope I never get caught behind you at a burger joint with this line of thinking: the place would close before you've decided on your order. Never take accept anything at face value? Good luck with that. Especially with the supplement/pharmaceuticals industry. You get in a lot and have it 3rd party tested via FTIR to make sure synthesis was correct, here is a lost of some fo the things you've taken at face value:
-The results were for your lot.
-The test was actually done. They didn't just print out a reading and sign off on it.
-The idea that C13 is an effective isotrope to measure the compound with.
-The theories of infrared spectroscopy are valid.
-The correct wave-length was used.
-The machine was in proper calibration.
Never accept anything at face value. Good luck getting anything accomplished aside from being born, being not dead, and dying.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
Depends which way you look at it. Your religion teaches separation God from people. Spirituality and my believes teaches that "We are All One", there's no separation, every human has a soul that part of God and in a way God is in all of us. We are part of God. So what you do for yourself- you do for God and other people and what you do for God and others- you do for yourself.
Even Bible talks about this.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
I totally agree with it.
Don't quote me on the numbers, but about 80% people in this country call themselves "Christians". So what is the percentage of those people who are so called "Christians" because of the reason above? And this is why Brian's quote makes total sense to me.
B5150
Legend
The Bible states we were created and God was with us in the Garden. As a result of 'original sin' we are born seperated from God. This "we are all one" and not "sperated from God" contradicts Old Testament practices of blood and burnt offerings as well as what Christ taught and is.
B5150
Legend
Symmetry's a bitch
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
I blame crader for my assymetrical physique.Symmetry's a bitch
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
I will never believe in God that Old Testament talks about. I don't believe in some kind of "original sin" either. And I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say Christ taught about separation between people and God. :dunno:
B5150
Legend
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There are so many that don't even know what it is that they don't believe.
"I don't believe in the Old Testament God because he was an angry God."
"I don't believe in the New Testament God because Jesus wasn't God."
"I believe in the My Testament God that I have conceived of my own liking."
6 of one...
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There are so many that don't even know what it is that they don't believe.
"I don't believe in the Old Testament God because he was an angry God."
"I don't believe in the New Testament God because Jesus wasn't God."
"I believe in the My Testament God that I have conceived of my own liking."
6 of one...
buster0371
Well-known member
i personally believe that all religions believe in and worship the same god and dont even know it. they have different stories, names, and theories surrounding that god. But the overall teaching of good morals are the same. And the crazy part is that all these religions fight, and go to war, over what they believe are different gods.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
They? Who are you talking about?
I read a lot of spiritual books, know and met many spiritual teachers, not to mention my own experience and the more I learn the more I convinced that God I know is nothing like Bible talks about. IMO not a single religion in this world holds the truth about God.
somewhatgifted
Registered User
God didnt write the bible, it is not fact. It was allegedly complied, translated, edited, rewritten, re-translated, adjusted, interpreted and altered.
This has me thinking that you need to use your own judgement in understanding the bible and not looking in its words to find the morals from which to view things in life.... like books.... written hundreds of years ago.... that are maybe a touch biased..... considering the beneficiaries and conspirators who have used said books to kill, steal and aquire monetary and social power.....
Even then if you have a complete understanding of what pages mean what and how to tactfully reference them in a conversation.... This to me likens writting "honey" on a piece of paper and licking it to taste sweetness....
Its about more than the words... its about the understanding and application of the ideas behind them.....
Then you realise that the ideas at times are not logical, sane or even humane while others are seemingly wonderful and eternally wise.....
Is it that the book in its entirety is to be taken at face value? OR
Should you decide for yourself how to best interpret the potentially wonderful teachings and LIVE a life that reflects greatness?
Life is subjective and there will always be someone willing to follow.
This has me thinking that you need to use your own judgement in understanding the bible and not looking in its words to find the morals from which to view things in life.... like books.... written hundreds of years ago.... that are maybe a touch biased..... considering the beneficiaries and conspirators who have used said books to kill, steal and aquire monetary and social power.....
Even then if you have a complete understanding of what pages mean what and how to tactfully reference them in a conversation.... This to me likens writting "honey" on a piece of paper and licking it to taste sweetness....
Its about more than the words... its about the understanding and application of the ideas behind them.....
Then you realise that the ideas at times are not logical, sane or even humane while others are seemingly wonderful and eternally wise.....
Is it that the book in its entirety is to be taken at face value? OR
Should you decide for yourself how to best interpret the potentially wonderful teachings and LIVE a life that reflects greatness?
Life is subjective and there will always be someone willing to follow.
B5150
Legend
Likewise.Not trying to step on your belief, Brian, simply sharing my opinion.
Stand for something or you will fall for anything.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
Completely agree with you, Somewhatgifted. Also when you mix lies with the truth it's almost impossible to recognize which one is which, and like you said you need to use your better judgment to decide what is true for you and not follow like a sheep somebody else ideas.
But most people do anyway because they don't want to take responsibility for their lives. And if they follow somebody else then they can blame others for their failure in life. It's just easier that way.
But most people do anyway because they don't want to take responsibility for their lives. And if they follow somebody else then they can blame others for their failure in life. It's just easier that way.
bLacKjAck.
Lift Heavy
I LOL'd
B5150
Legend
How do you know lies from truth? How do you know you have better judgment that precludes you from believing a lie? If there is a truth for you and a truth for me which one is untrue? How am I wrong that it may be true that you are a sheep following someone else's ideas?
What makes the spiritual ideas in books you read today and the ideas of the spiritual people that you know, learn and follow today any less polluted than those who wrote scripture in the Bible?
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
Says who?
If there is a truth for you and a truth for me which one is untrue? How am I wrong that it may be true that you are a sheep following someone else's ideas?
The problem is that so many people insist on thinking that the values they now have are the right and the prefect ones, and that everyone else should adhere to them. So in escence, and definition they have become self-justified and self righteous.
Number one reason for me is that I know them or their biography, I can ask questions, challenge them if some things I don't agree with.
Number two-their teachings and books do not discriminate. Religious people can not stand the thought of a God who loves no one in a way which is more special than any other, no matter what race you are, what language you speak and what belief system you have.
On the other hand, how can believe in Bible, in John for example, who spoke on behalf of Jesus? I asked this same question several times before. Who is John? Nobody answered yet.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
I should mention one more thing.
I used to go to church, Brian, all the time, still do once in a while. I enjoy great music and most messages are great as well, many churches create wonderful communities and help many who struggle.
So when I talk negative about church I refer more to earlier days, the beginning of the it, when church and state were together in control.
Today most church leaders have the best intentions and are great people, but I will never believe in any religion that condemns people who don't belong...
I used to go to church, Brian, all the time, still do once in a while. I enjoy great music and most messages are great as well, many churches create wonderful communities and help many who struggle.
So when I talk negative about church I refer more to earlier days, the beginning of the it, when church and state were together in control.
Today most church leaders have the best intentions and are great people, but I will never believe in any religion that condemns people who don't belong...
isoc
Member
Very well put, agreed 100%. Gods laws are timeless, humanity follows the fads of today and what justifies them in their own minds, we have all been there before, it is human nature.
samva777
Member
Its better for believers not to argue with the non believers , its not up to me to try and bring light to non believers and the Bible commands me to segregate my self from non believers. To those that are believers we are in a spiritual war with the profane on every front Tolerance for ideas that conflict with Gods laws have weakened are society segregation is the only thing that will protect our Brothers , Sisters and Children from the Heathens and there wicked ideas I.E.Abortion. I pray for are own religious country with Gods laws intact I think we have lost this country due to Liberalism.
I say let the heathens live amongst there own kind and be subject to there own kinds wickedness in this life and the next I am sure they will suffer from what they sow , to those on the fence read your bible God hates a fence sitter be hot or be cold or i will spew you from my mouth.
I say let the heathens live amongst there own kind and be subject to there own kinds wickedness in this life and the next I am sure they will suffer from what they sow , to those on the fence read your bible God hates a fence sitter be hot or be cold or i will spew you from my mouth.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
By what faculties have you obtained this knowledge, and by what criteria have you tested it in order to determine that it is, indeed, truth?
B5150
Legend
I have consulted with the faculty and have obtained much knowledge and truth? Need I mention the criteria?Invalid Link Removed
isoc
Member
what he said... Probably just my own observances of myself, in which case it would not apply to everyone. The ten commandments are good moral code to follow at any given point in time, however I know that in the past what I believed was right or wrong depended on the situation I was in and what was easiest for myself and/or justified my actions. That was maybe an over genralized statement about all humans, however I am sure that I am not the only one who does/has done this. The application was to those who pick and choose what to believe based on personal likes/dislikes. Trust me, there are things in the Bible that I wish were not there or would make life easier or more pleasing to the flesh, but in my own mind, that does not make them wrong or false. Concerning the Bible, you either believe it all, or you dont. In it we are commanded not to add to, or take from it any part. It is the major way in which God reveals Himself to us. No one knows God 100%, but for those who pick and choose things to believe and disbelieve out of the Bible, they are making up a God based upon their own likes/dislikes, trusting in their own wisdom and morality, a false God. First commandment is that we are to worship God and not idols. This is assuming that there is some belief in the Bible and encouragement to add to that belief, if you dont believe at all, then the above statements will seem foolish to you. 1 Corinthians 3:18-20
B5150
Legend
Rather well said.
For those whose default measure is sceince, reason, logic, their measure and their answers fall in the category of measurements of matter, material or data.
For those whose default measure is spiritual their measure is of the spirit whose evidence is the measure of the fruits, gifts and evidnec of the spirit.
These two will always conflict simply becuse one is a matter of the natural and one is of the supernatural.
The flesh and spirit are at odds and battle with one another and are often enemies.
For those whose default measure is sceince, reason, logic, their measure and their answers fall in the category of measurements of matter, material or data.
For those whose default measure is spiritual their measure is of the spirit whose evidence is the measure of the fruits, gifts and evidnec of the spirit.
These two will always conflict simply becuse one is a matter of the natural and one is of the supernatural.
The flesh and spirit are at odds and battle with one another and are often enemies.
samva777
Member
In my everyday dealing in business and otherwise who am I goingto trust? A Brother who has a set moral and ethical code he lives by or some Heathen who has his own set of codes and ethics which could be anything or nothing!
My Business always goes to a Brother , I know by supporting a Brother or Sister they will be supporting like minded people and it makes us stronger. Do they have to be my exact belief system absolutly not , I might be from a different domination but we both believe in God and have certain Principles we live by I.E. 10 commandments. USA was built on a foundation of religious principles and we have strayed to far away from them.
My Business always goes to a Brother , I know by supporting a Brother or Sister they will be supporting like minded people and it makes us stronger. Do they have to be my exact belief system absolutly not , I might be from a different domination but we both believe in God and have certain Principles we live by I.E. 10 commandments. USA was built on a foundation of religious principles and we have strayed to far away from them.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
With the overwhelming majority of the people of this country claiming to be Christian, who do you think is doing the majority of the cheating/stealing/raping/murder, etc?
I will trust a man who comes upon their moral code by rational means, than one that pretends to be moral out of fear of judgement - for those individuals will perform horrors during those moments of doubt. Even moreso, those that "understand" that all they have to do is repent and claim to be forgiven - and so the present is fair game.
The cast majority of the atheists/agnostics I have known have been highly moral - while the majority (yes, majority...not all. There are a lot who are not, particularly some on this board) of the Western Religious have been various degrees of scum.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
I completely agree with Dsade on this one.
And I don't understand why so many Christians keep saying it? About 80% of people in this country consider themselves Christians, I fail to see how you "have strayed".
And I don't understand why so many Christians keep saying it? About 80% of people in this country consider themselves Christians, I fail to see how you "have strayed".
T H E O R E M
Member
could not have said it any better myself!!! :684:
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
I claim to be a hockey player. In the beer leagues I'm unstoppable, but I doubt I'd even make first callbacks at a tryout for an American Junior B team. I claim to be a hockey player, just not a good one.
Last I checked you can claim to be anything, but that doesn't me you are good at it. With the majority of the country choosing to be christian, we can attribute a certain percentage as bad christians. X% of Y = C. Conversely, with less people being agnostic or atheist, if we attribute the same or similar percentages, we'll experience a smaller amount of bad agnostics/atheists. X% of Z = D. If Y > Z then C is always greater than D. 7th grade alebra at its finest.
Judge by character, not by what book of creed a person attempts to follow. Respectable people are respectable not because they follow a book to the T.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
I agree...my post was a reply to the poster who claimed that he places his trust on "believers", as if that was at all meaningful. A simple conversation with most will reveal the basis of their morality - and if "bible" or "koran" forms the FIRST or MOST IMPORTANT reason, then I am automatically on guard against such a person, as their morality originates NOT from thorough consideration but likely fear of supoernatural reprisal.
samva777
Member
Here is why
Trying to cater and include every type of alien thinking set of beliefs in a christian nation is just wrong. It destroys the foundation of the country.
Trying to cater and include every type of alien thinking set of beliefs in a christian nation is just wrong. It destroys the foundation of the country.
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