We're a "Nation of cowards"

[EasyEJL]

To believe in racism means that you know someone else's UNSTATED motivation in doing something.

If a black man cuts me off in traffic and I roll down my window and shout the general round of expletives at him, he can choose believe its racism and in that way he can ignore his own crappy behavior entirely. If it was a white or other color person would I have done the same thing ? you bet.

If a black woman is in the 20 items or less line with a full cart, and then after its finally all scanned pulls out an accordion of coupons and wastes more time and I say to my wife "first she can't count, now she's going to hold us hostage here till she gets her groceries for free with coupons", the black woman can choose to believe its racism rather than her own lack of courtesy in going to a lane she shouldn't be in, and not having her coupons already out for what she bought. Would I have said the same thing if it was any other color person ? you bet.

If I see some kids walking down the street either in the street instead of on the sidewalk with their pants hanging low and boxers showing and I say "dumbass punks" and the kids happen to be black they can believe it was racism. Would I have said the same thing with other colored kids? you bet

 

[searl12]

To believe in racism means that you know someone else's UNSTATED motivation in doing something.

If a black man cuts me off in traffic and I roll down my window and shout the general round of expletives at him, he can choose believe its racism and in that way he can ignore his own crappy behavior entirely. If it was a white or other color person would I have done the same thing ? you bet.

If a black woman is in the 20 items or less line with a full cart, and then after its finally all scanned pulls out an accordion of coupons and wastes more time and I say to my wife "first she can't count, now she's going to hold us hostage here till she gets her groceries for free with coupons", the black woman can choose to believe its racism rather than her own lack of courtesy in going to a lane she shouldn't be in, and not having her coupons already out for what she bought. Would I have said the same thing if it was any other color person ? you bet.

If I see some kids walking down the street either in the street instead of on the sidewalk with their pants hanging low and boxers showing and I say "dumbass punks" and the kids happen to be black they can believe it was racism. Would I have said the same thing with other colored kids? you bet

Very good post. Too many people today use racism as a crutch for their own crappy lives, the fact that they dont have the motivation to do anything to change them either. Also as stated earlier, it's strange how there is BET ( black entertainment television)-obviously, yet if I started WET, white entertainment television, there would be the biggest uproar in the history of the world, I'd receive death threats, the media would go crazy, it str8 up would not be tolerated. It's a pretty shtty double standard if you ask me.

 

[EasyEJL]

Yeah, its no different with any form of a person believing they know why you are doing what you are doing.

Why is it a hate crime for white teenagers to beat up a black man, but not a hate crime for black teenagers to beat up a white woman?

 

[searl12]

I couldn't agree with you more, basaically it's now tougher to be white in our countries cause you do or say anything to stick up for yourself and your a racist. Am I a racist for being upset that my country let's other countries garbage in here without and thought as to how it might screw the rest of the country up? It's funny, we are all losing jobs, every state in America and every province in Canada is losing jobs, yet my government just released a statement saying they are trying to double their immigration numbers, somebody tell me how that makes ****in sense, I lose my job a s a carpenter cause all the work dries up< i have to find something so I try Future shop( a job's a job )in tough times, and I apply 7 times, yes 7, I go there the other day to buy a dvd, and there is an immigrant working the till, he can't speak english, and his supervisor had to help him count my change back to me??????????????????????? yet I have sales experience, have lived here my whole life, have references, clean record, and I'm passed over for this guy? not to be rude Im all for a man trying to have a better life, trying to make a better life for his family, and iM ALL FOR IMMIGRATION WHEN THE PEOPLE ARENT TAKING JOBS FROM THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED HERE THEIR WHOLE LIVES!!!

Excuse the rant, but as I said before, the United States and Canada need to take care of their own people, before they take care of the rest of the worlds problems!

 

[lutherblsstt]

Very good post. Too many people today use racism as a crutch for their own crappy lives, the fact that they dont have the motivation to do anything to change them either. Also as stated earlier, it's strange how there is BET ( black entertainment television)-obviously, yet if I started WET, white entertainment television, there would be the biggest uproar in the history of the world, I'd receive death threats, the media would go crazy, it str8 up would not be tolerated. It's a pretty shtty double standard if you ask me.

It seems as though almost any allegation of racism has been met with the same dismissive reply from the bulk of whites in the U.S. According to national surveys, more than three out of four whites refuse to believe that discrimination is any real problem in America .

That most whites remain unconvinced of racism's salience--with as few as six percent believing it to be a "very serious problem," according to one poll in the mid 90s --suggests that racism-as-card makes up an awfully weak hand.

While folks of color consistently articulate their belief that racism is a real and persistent presence in their own lives, these claims have had very little effect on white attitudes.

As such, how could anyone believe that people of color would somehow pull the claim out of their hat, as if it were guaranteed to make white America sit up and take notice? If anything, it is likely to be ignored, or even attacked, and in a particularly vicious manner.


PS There is plenty of information about for example,police racism, misconduct and brutality, both in historical and contemporary terms, available from any number of sources. Among them, see Kristian Williams, Our Enemies in Blue. Soft Skull Press, 2004; and online at the Stolen Lives Project: Invalid Link Removed.

 

[lutherblsstt]

I couldn't agree with you more, basaically it's now tougher to be white in our countries cause you do or say anything to stick up for yourself and your a racist. Am I a racist for being upset that my country let's other countries garbage in here without and thought as to how it might screw the rest of the country up? It's funny, we are all losing jobs, every state in America and every province in Canada is losing jobs, yet my government just released a statement saying they are trying to double their immigration numbers, somebody tell me how that makes ****in sense, I lose my job a s a carpenter cause all the work dries up< i have to find something so I try Future shop( a job's a job )in tough times, and I apply 7 times, yes 7, I go there the other day to buy a dvd, and there is an immigrant working the till, he can't speak english, and his supervisor had to help him count my change back to me??????????????????????? yet I have sales experience, have lived here my whole life, have references, clean record, and I'm passed over for this guy? not to be rude Im all for a man trying to have a better life, trying to make a better life for his family, and iM ALL FOR IMMIGRATION WHEN THE PEOPLE ARENT TAKING JOBS FROM THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED HERE THEIR WHOLE LIVES!!!

Excuse the rant, but as I said before, the United States and Canada need to take care of their own people, before they take care of the rest of the worlds problems!

Who do you mean by "their own people"?

 

[lutherblsstt]

Invalid Link Removed



Yep..its all context.


"Come back and vote a couple times"


Thanks Ron Jones!

Again,no evidence was ever presented that ACORN leaders intended to register voters using false information.

Establishing such intent is the first requisite for demonstrating voter fraud.

As the New York Times reports, the charges against ACORN are "wildly overblown" and intended, rather, to "hobble ACORN's [registration] efforts."

While the group admits that some canvassers did hand in false names, those accounted for less than 1 percent of the total gathered.

Most of the faulty forms that have fed attention to the "scandal" were only condemned by political leaders because ACORN warned them about the individual cases, not due to the investigative diligence of Republican lawmakers or right-wing media pundits.

The Republican Party and right-wing media's attack on ACORN was motivated primarily by their fear of electoral defeat, and their contempt for poor, minority voters who they felt would help usher in that defeat.

 

[lutherblsstt]

Cosmo Kramer,

You point out again and again that "the Dems did it too in the past".

That anyone could find such positions convincing speaks to the urgent need for schools to require introductory courses in logic. After all, these kinds of arguments give new meaning to the concept of a non sequitur.

To begin with, an injustice in one place cannot be dismissed or rendered unworthy of rectification just because there is another injustice of equal or even greater magnitude happening elsewhere.

To argue that one injustice cancels out the moral claim of victims of other injustices makes no sense, and does intellectual violence to the very notion of rational thought.

It is, in short, the logic of passing-the-buck, of refusing to take personal responsibility for one's own actions and the actions of one's nation: ironic, given the extent to which conservatives love to pose as the prophets of personal responsibility.

 

[RobInKuwait]

This is the best article I've ever read about the politics of race in America.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[searl12]

Who do you mean by "their own people"?

what I meant my friend, is countries need to take care of the population s they have, white blacj, arab, asian, beofre.... opening the door to more people to come in. Why not fix the problem beofre making it bigger? It sounds to me man like you think that black people dont have the same oppurtunities white people do, well guess what? they do! Im poor and Im white, and i have 2 options, work as hard as I can to survive or die.Im no different than any black man, if I want an education to better myself, like you, I will have to pay for it myself. Trust me I get zero advantages where I live for being white. Im the minority in my country, and I get treated like sht by arab people, somali people, and I f I say anything Im a racist.

you gotta quit showing that video too man, its not making anything better, white black, if your poor, your a nobody to the government. get used to it cause it will never change.

 

[lutherblsstt]

what I meant my friend, is countries need to take care of the population s they have, white blacj, arab, asian, beofre.... opening the door to more people to come in. Why not fix the problem beofre making it bigger?

Agreed

It sounds to me man like you think that black people dont have the same oppurtunities white people do, well guess what? they do!

Being white in America means having advantages in employment, education, the justice system and housing,I have provided statistical support for those claims and if you have data to the contrary, by all means share it with me. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the argument is, or how to respond to your concerns.

I never said that all whites have easy lives. It's just that as a general rule, to be white confers advantage, just like being rich, or male, or straight, or able-bodied does, relative to those who are poor, women, LGBT or disabled.

Im poor and Im white, and i have 2 options, work as hard as I can to survive or die.Im no different than any black man, if I want an education to better myself, like you, I will have to pay for it myself. Trust me I get zero advantages where I live for being white. Im the minority in my country, and I get treated like sht by arab people, somali people, and I f I say anything Im a racist.

Though we are used to thinking of privilege as a mere monetary issue, it is more than that.

Yes, there are rich black and brown folks, but even they are subject to racial profiling and stereotyping (especially because those who encounter them often don't know they're rich and so view them as decidedly not), as well as bias in mortgage lending, and unequal treatment in schools.

So, for instance, even the children of well-off black families are more likely to be suspended or expelled from school than the children of poor whites, and this is true despite the fact that there is no statistically significant difference in the rates of serious school rule infractions between white kids or black kids that could justify the disparity (according to fourteen different studies examined by Russ Skiba at Indiana University).


As for poor whites, though they certainly are suffering economically, this doesn't mean they lack racial privilege.

I grew up in a very modest apartment, and economically was far from privileged.

Yet I received better treatment in school (placement in advanced track classes even when I wasn't a good student), better treatment by law enforcement officers, and indeed more job opportunities because of connections I was able to take advantage of, that were pretty much unavailable to the folks of color I knew growing up.

Likewise, low income whites everywhere are able to clean up, go to a job interview and be seen as just another white person, whereas a person of color, even who isn't low-income, has to wonder whether or not they might trip some negative stereotype about their group when they go for an interview or sit in the classroom answering questions from the teacher.

Oh, and not to put too fine a point on it, but even low-income whites are more likely to own their own home than middle income black families, thanks to past advantages in housing and asset accumulation, which has allowed those whites to receive a small piece of property from their families.

The point is, privilege is as much a psychological matter as a material one. Whites have the luxury of not having to worry that our race is going to mark us negatively when looking for work, going to school, shopping, looking for a place to live, or driving for that matter: things that folks of color can't take for granted.

 

[searl12]

nice post, i see where you are coming from for sure my man. I will post some more on this tomorrow i'm exhauseted and I gotta find a new job tomorrow, lol. Again, I love all people, my girlfriend is an immigrant and her family is the model of a hard working respectful family. I have no prblems with that at all. I simply think with the economy as it is, we should slow down a bit. Im so thankful she's beside me now, im pretty poor right now, and looking for a new job which sucks. But I have something alot of people don't, Im loved unconditionally by this sweet girl beside me. When I think about it, my life's pretty sweet isn't it.

good night man, you seem very intelligent

 

[lutherblsstt]

nice post, i see where you are coming from for sure my man. I will post some more on this tomorrow i'm exhauseted and I gotta find a new job tomorrow, lol. Again, I love all people, my girlfriend is an immigrant and her family is the model of a hard working respectful family. I have no prblems with that at all. I simply think with the economy as it is, we should slow down a bit. Im so thankful she's beside me now, im pretty poor right now, and looking for a new job which sucks. But I have something alot of people don't, Im loved unconditionally by this sweet girl beside me. When I think about it, my life's pretty sweet isn't it.

good night man, you seem very intelligent

No problem man,I like discussing such issues,especially in English with native English speakers since most of my days are spent speaking Japanese.

 

[EasyEJL]

So, for instance, even the children of well-off black families are more likely to be suspended or expelled from school than the children of poor whites, and this is true despite the fact that there is no statistically significant difference in the rates of serious school rule infractions between white kids or black kids that could justify the disparity (according to fourteen different studies examined by Russ Skiba at Indiana University).


As for poor whites, though they certainly are suffering economically, this doesn't mean they lack racial privilege.

I grew up in a very modest apartment, and economically was far from privileged.

Yet I received better treatment in school (placement in advanced track classes even when I wasn't a good student), better treatment by law enforcement officers, and indeed more job opportunities because of connections I was able to take advantage of, that were pretty much unavailable to the folks of color I knew growing up.

Likewise, low income whites everywhere are able to clean up, go to a job interview and be seen as just another white person, whereas a person of color, even who isn't low-income, has to wonder whether or not they might trip some negative stereotype about their group when they go for an interview or sit in the classroom answering questions from the teacher.

Oh, and not to put too fine a point on it, but even low-income whites are more likely to own their own home than middle income black families, thanks to past advantages in housing and asset accumulation, which has allowed those whites to receive a small piece of property from their families.

The point is, privilege is as much a psychological matter as a material one. Whites have the luxury of not having to worry that our race is going to mark us negatively when looking for work, going to school, shopping, looking for a place to live, or driving for that matter: things that folks of color can't take for granted.

You state these things as if they are factual, but again, they are merely opinions. You choose to BELIEVE you had privileges because of your skin color. this bit

"Yet I received better treatment in school (placement in advanced track classes even when I wasn't a good student), better treatment by law enforcement officers, and indeed more job opportunities because of connections"
Were you told by your teachers that you were put there for your skin? Or could it be you were applying yourself harder than other children regardless of color. Did you get better treatment from law enforcement officers either because of the activity you were involved in or perhaps how civilly you spoke with them when you dealt with them or did they tell you "oh you are white, move along". Have you gone for an interview and had the interviewer tell you "thank god its not another nigger"?

No, you choose to for whatever reason believe that racism was a significant factor in these. and " low-income whites are more likely to own their own home than middle income black families" is a bunch of crap as well. Ownership vs rental is not racially prejudicial in any way or form. The number of people from other racial groups have a higher home ownership rate (asian, hispanic, etc), so the "passing of assets from one generation to the next" is also a bunch of hogwash.

You want to believe there is large racism for whatever reason, and good for your believe it. It just perpetuates myths. Do I say there is never any racism anywhere? Of course not, as individuals are individuals, and there are still stupid people out there. But as a systematic "ailment" it no longer exists, other than as a crutch for minorities to excuse crappy behavior. Ebonics began to gain acceptance as a language at one point.....

 

[searl12]

im torn cause you both make excellent points, but I am leaning towards the last post. To me it's just more of what I see, more of a reality, but In Canada, there's not that many black people as it is. Trust me, they are few and far in between. you could just agree to disagree

 

[Zero V]

Take away affirmative action and the right to call the race card on cops and people if he wants there to be an end to the idea of "Race" ......didnt think so.

And an acknowledgment that there is a difference between racism and statistics.

Idiot he is, hrrmmmm.

I can care less what color you are, but I do care if I lose out on a job or government aid because I am not said race...

 

[lutherblsstt]

You state these things as if they are factual, but again, they are merely opinions. You choose to BELIEVE you had privileges because of your skin color. this bit

"Yet I received better treatment in school (placement in advanced track classes even when I wasn't a good student), better treatment by law enforcement officers, and indeed more job opportunities because of connections"
Were you told by your teachers that you were put there for your skin? Or could it be you were applying yourself harder than other children regardless of color. Did you get better treatment from law enforcement officers either because of the activity you were involved in or perhaps how civilly you spoke with them when you dealt with them or did they tell you "oh you are white, move along". Have you gone for an interview and had the interviewer tell you "thank god its not another nigger"?

No, you choose to for whatever reason believe that racism was a significant factor in these. and " low-income whites are more likely to own their own home than middle income black families" is a bunch of crap as well. Ownership vs rental is not racially prejudicial in any way or form. The number of people from other racial groups have a higher home ownership rate (asian, hispanic, etc), so the "passing of assets from one generation to the next" is also a bunch of hogwash.

You want to believe there is large racism for whatever reason, and good for your believe it. It just perpetuates myths. Do I say there is never any racism anywhere? Of course not, as individuals are individuals, and there are still stupid people out there. But as a systematic "ailment" it no longer exists, other than as a crutch for minorities to excuse crappy behavior. Ebonics began to gain acceptance as a language at one point.....

Believe? You think that is the extent of it? I have evidence,not just "beliefs"

1)Persons with "white sounding names," according to a massive national study, are fifty percent more likely to be called back for a job interview than those with "black sounding" names, even when all other credentials are the same

Source: Bertrand, Marianne and Sendhil Mullainathan, 2004. "Are Emily and Greg More Employable Than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment in Labor Market Discrimination." June 20.
Invalid Link Removed.

2) White men with a criminal record are slightly more likely to be called back for a job interview than black men without one, even when the men are equally qualified, and present themselves to potential employers in an identical fashion

Source: Pager, Devah. 2003. "The Mark of a Criminal Record." American Journal of Sociology. Volume 108: 5, March: 937-75

3) According to the Justice Department, Black and Latino males are three times more likely than white males to have their vehicles stopped and searched by police, even though white males are over four times more likely to have illegal contraband in our cars on the occasions when we are searched.

Source: Matthew R. Durose, Erica L. Schmitt and Patrick A. Langan, Contacts Between Police and the Public: Findings from the 2002 National Survey. U.S. Department of Justice, (Bureau of Justice Statistics), April 2005

4) Black and Latino students are about half as likely as whites to be placed in advanced or honors classes in school, and twice as likely to be placed in remedial classes? Or that even when test scores and prior performance would justify higher placement, students of color are far less likely to be placed in honors classes.

Source: Gordon, Rebecca. 1998. Education and Race. Oakland: Applied Research Center: 48-9; Fischer, Claude S. et al., 1996. Inequality by Design: Cracking the Bell Curve Myth. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press: 163; Steinhorn, Leonard and Barabara Diggs-Brown, 1999. By the Color of Our Skin: The Illusion of Integration and the Reality of Race. NY: Dutton: 95-6

5) Students of color are 2-3 times more likely than whites to be suspended or expelled from school, even though rates of serious school rule infractions do not differ to any significant degree between racial groups.

Source: Skiba, Russell J. et al., The Color of Discipline: Sources of Racial and Gender Disproportionality in School Punishment. Indiana Education Policy Center, Policy Research Report SRS1, June 2000; U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System: Youth 2003, Online Comprehensive Results, 2004

Fact is, few folks have heard any of these things before, suggesting how little impact scholarly research on the subject of racism has had on the general public, and how difficult it is to make whites, in particular, give the subject a second thought.

6) Contrary to popular belief, research indicates that people of color are actually reluctant to allege racism, be it on the job, or in schools, or anywhere else. Far from "playing the race card" at the drop of a hat, it is actually the case (again, according to scholarly investigation, as opposed to the conventional wisdom of the white public), that black and brown folks typically "stuff" their experiences with discrimination and racism, only making an allegation of such treatment after many, many incidents have transpired, about which they said nothing for fear of being ignored or attacked.

Source: Terrell, Francis and Sandra L. Terrell, 1999. "Cultural Identification and Cultural Mistrust: Some Findings and Implications," in Advances in African American Psychology, Reginald Jones, ed., Hampton VA: Cobb & Henry; Fuegen, Kathleen, 2000. "Defining Discrimination in the Personal/Group Discrimination Discrepancy," Sex Roles: A Journal of Research. September; Miller, Carol T. 2001. "A Theoretical Perspective on Coping With Stigma," Journal of Social Issues. Spring; Feagin, Joe, Hernan Vera and Nikitah Imani, 1996. The Agony of Education: Black Students in White Colleges and Universities. NY: Routledge.

The fundamental flaw in many of the arguments posted here is the suggestion--implicit though it may be--that prior to the creation of affirmative action, white folks were mostly on board the racial justice and equal opportunity train, and were open to hearing about claims of racism from persons of color.

Yet nothing could be further from the truth

Simply put: whites in every generation have thought there was no real problem with racism, irrespective of the evidence, and in every generation we have been wrong.

A few questions for you:

1) Wht does it say about white rationality and white collective sanity, that in 1963--at a time when in retrospect all would agree racism was rampant in the United States, and before the passage of modern civil rights legislation--nearly two-thirds of whites, when polled, said they believed blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities--almost the same number as say this now, some forty-plus years later?



2) What does it suggest about the extent of white folks' disconnection from the real world, that in 1962, eighty-five percent of whites said black children had just as good a chance as white children to get a good education in their communities?

The Gallup Organization, Gallup Poll Social Audit, 2001. Black-White Relations in the United States, 2001 Update, July 10: 7-9


3) Or that in May, 1968, seventy percent of whites said that blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities, while only seventeen percent said blacks were treated "not very well" and only 3.5 percent said blacks were treated badly?

The Gallup Organization, Gallup Poll, #761, May, 1968

4) What does it say about whites' tenuous grip on mental health that in mid-August 1969, forty-four percent of whites told a Newsweek/Gallup National Opinion Survey that blacks had a better chance than they did to get a good paying job--two times as many as said they would have a worse chance?

Or that forty-two percent said blacks had a better chance for a good education than whites, while only seventeen percent said they would have a worse opportunity for a good education, and eighty percent saying blacks would have an equal or better chance?

In that same survey, seventy percent said blacks could have improved conditions in the "slums" if they had wanted to, and were more than twice as likely to blame blacks themselves, as opposed to discrimination, for high unemployment in the black community.

Newsweek/Gallup Organization, National Opinion Survey, August 19, 1969


In other words, even when racism was, by virtually all accounts (looking backward in time), institutionalized, white folks were convinced there was no real problem.

Evenforty years ago, whites were more likely to think that blacks had better opportunities, than to believe the opposite (and obviously accurate) thing: namely, that whites were advantaged in every realm of American life.

 

[searl12]

alot of excellent points, but its not nearly the same as 40 years ago. they dont sit at the back of the bus, they get everything we get, simply they still might gewt looked at as , thugs, or thieves which probablt isn't the case. to comment on ths as well, blacks haven't really done alot to clean up their images, awful lyrics in rap music ( some of which I like ) a massive majority of the prison population, and an overwhelming amount on welfare or living in affordable housing, and also the way alot of them don't need to talk with a lisp or slang whatever but choose toEg: "us pooo black folk ain't got nothing", instead of the poor black people do not have anything" very simple yey i've seen eduacted black people choose to talk like this. Also what about the black people who aren't jamaican yet pretend to have a Jamaican accent, once again I know blacks that do this. I myself have been in a car with my black friend driving, we were pulled over for nothing, and only he was asked for id, any questions were directed to him, I admit that upset me alot, and I made a complaint ot the police force,( obviously nothing came of my complaint). I just woke up from a nap so I'm kind of all over the place so I apologize, had an insane workout and passed out after I ate. Now I wake up and right on to Anabolic Minds. What is this site doing to me?lol

sorry about the spelling Im out of it right now wow. I should just go back to bed and call it a night

 

[RobInKuwait]

Simply put: whites in every generation have thought there was no real problem with racism, irrespective of the evidence, and in every generation we have been wrong.

Luther,

Read this article, or anything else by Thomas Sowell if you want an honest objective look at race in America. Liberal talking points and selective statistics will not paint you a true picture of the reality of race in America. I'm attaching an article in the WSJ, I'd like to know what you think.

THE GAP
Crippled by Their Culture
Race doesn't hold back America's "black rednecks." Nor does racism.

by THOMAS SOWELL
Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:01 A.M. EDT

For most of the history of this country, differences between the black and the white population--whether in income, IQ, crime rates, or whatever--have been attributed to either race or racism. For much of the first half of the 20th century, these differences were attributed to race--that is, to an assumption that blacks just did not have it in their genes to do as well as white people. The tide began to turn in the second half of the 20th century, when the assumption developed that black-white differences were due to racism on the part of whites.

Three decades of my own research lead me to believe that neither of those explanations will stand up under scrutiny of the facts. As one small example, a study published last year indicated that most of the black alumni of Harvard were from either the West Indies or Africa, or were the children of West Indian or African immigrants. These people are the same race as American blacks, who greatly outnumber either or both.

If this disparity is not due to race, it is equally hard to explain by racism. To a racist, one black is pretty much the same as another. But, even if a racist somehow let his racism stop at the water's edge, how could he tell which student was the son or daughter of someone born in the West Indies or in Africa, especially since their American-born offspring probably do not even have a foreign accent?

What then could explain such large disparities in demographic "representation" among these three groups of blacks? Perhaps they have different patterns of behavior and different cultures and values behind their behavior.

There have always been large disparities, even within the native black population of the U.S. Those blacks whose ancestors were "free persons of color" in 1850 have fared far better in income, occupation, and family stability than those blacks whose ancestors were freed in the next decade by Abraham Lincoln.

What is not nearly as widely known is that there were also very large disparities within the white population of the pre-Civil War South and the white population of the Northern states. Although Southern whites were only about one-third of the white population of the U.S., an absolute majority of all the illiterate whites in the country were in the South.

The North had four times as many schools as the South, attended by more than four times as many students. Children in Massachusetts spent more than twice as many years in school as children in Virginia. Such disparities obviously produce other disparities. Northern newspapers had more than four times the circulation of Southern newspapers. Only 8% of the patents issued in 1851 went to Southerners. Even though agriculture was the principal economic activity of the antebellum South at the time, the vast majority of the patents for agricultural inventions went to Northerners. Even the cotton gin was invented by a Northerner.

Disparities between Southern whites and Northern whites extended across the board from rates of violence to rates of illegitimacy. American writers from both the antebellum South and the North commented on the great differences between the white people in the two regions. So did famed French visitor Alexis de Tocqueville.

None of these disparities can be attributed to either race or racism. Many contemporary observers attributed these differences to the existence of slavery in the South, as many in later times would likewise attribute both the difference between Northern and Southern whites, and between blacks and whites nationwide, to slavery. But slavery doesn't stand up under scrutiny of historical facts any better than race or racism as explanations of North-South differences or black-white differences. The people who settled in the South came from different regions of Britain than the people who settled in the North--and they differed as radically on the other side of the Atlantic as they did here--that is, before they had ever seen a black slave.

Slavery also cannot explain the difference between American blacks and West Indian blacks living in the United States because the ancestors of both were enslaved. When race, racism, and slavery all fail the empirical test, what is left?

Culture is left.

The culture of the people who were called "rednecks" and "crackers" before they ever got on the boats to cross the Atlantic was a culture that produced far lower levels of intellectual and economic achievement, as well as far higher levels of violence and sexual promiscuity. That culture had its own way of talking, not only in the pronunciation of particular words but also in a loud, dramatic style of oratory with vivid imagery, repetitive phrases and repetitive cadences.

Although that style originated on the other side of the Atlantic in centuries past, it became for generations the style of both religious oratory and political oratory among Southern whites and among Southern blacks--not only in the South but in the Northern ghettos in which Southern blacks settled. It was a style used by Southern white politicians in the era of Jim Crow and later by black civil rights leaders fighting Jim Crow. Martin Luther King's famous speech at the Lincoln Memorial in 1963 was a classic example of that style.

While a third of the white population of the U.S. lived within the redneck culture, more than 90% of the black population did. Although that culture eroded away over the generations, it did so at different rates in different places and among different people. It eroded away much faster in Britain than in the U.S. and somewhat faster among Southern whites than among Southern blacks, who had fewer opportunities for education or for the rewards that came with escape from that counterproductive culture.

Nevertheless the process took a long time. As late as the First World War, white soldiers from Georgia, Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi scored lower on mental tests than black soldiers from Ohio, Illinois, New York and Pennsylvania. Again, neither race nor racism can explain that--and neither can slavery.

The redneck culture proved to be a major handicap for both whites and blacks who absorbed it. Today, the last remnants of that culture can still be found in the worst of the black ghettos, whether in the North or the South, for the ghettos of the North were settled by blacks from the South. The counterproductive and self-destructive culture of black rednecks in today's ghettos is regarded by many as the only "authentic" black culture--and, for that reason, something not to be tampered with. Their talk, their attitudes, and their behavior are regarded as sacrosanct.

The people who take this view may think of themselves as friends of blacks. But they are the kinds of friends who can do more harm than enemies.

 

[searl12]

whats funny about this, is in my country (Canada ) there isnt many black people. But I've experienced more racism from black people than i've dished out, same with my friends, they call us crackers, honkey, and then I hear people say that a black person can't be racist. I grow tired of this. Keep leaning on race for an excuse and noone will get anywhere, take someinitiative no matter what colour or race you are and fight as hard as you can to survive.

 

[lutherblsstt]

whats funny about this, is in my country (Canada ) there isnt many black people. But I've experienced more racism from black people than i've dished out, same with my friends, they call us crackers, honkey, and then I hear people say that a black person can't be racist. I grow tired of this. Keep leaning on race for an excuse and noone will get anywhere, take someinitiative no matter what colour or race you are and fight as hard as you can to survive.

If data indicates (and it does, surprisingly) that every year there are
maybe a few dozen attacks of heterosexuals by LGBT folks, which are apparently motivated by bias against straight people, does that make anti-straight bias the functional equivalent of homophobia and
gay-bashing?

And should people who speak about gay-bashing and discrimination against LGBT folks feel compelled to give equal time to 'straight-bashing' and 'heterophobia'?

In other words, even if we acknowledge that sometimes the less powerful group in a society does something bad to the more powerful group, and even if we suggest that sometimes members of the more powerful group suffer injustices, the larger institutional patterns can remain in place, right?

 

[lutherblsstt]

Luther,

Read this article, or anything else by Thomas Sowell if you want an honest objective look at race in America. Liberal talking points and selective statistics will not paint you a true picture of the reality of race in America. I'm attaching an article in the WSJ, I'd like to know what you think.

You called my post "liberal talking points and selective statistics" and then ask me to comment on an article?

Let me give you the same kind of treatment.

My comment on Sowell's piece is that black conservatives are quick to let whites off the hook no matter what we do.

You also remind me of the Don Imus incident.

One thing was made clear by the Imus incident: namely, white folks are incapable of blaming other whites for white racism and racist behavior.

Despite all the demands by whites that blacks take "personal responsibility" for their lives, their behaviors, and the problems that often beset their communities--and especially that they stop blaming whites for their station in life--the fact is, we can't wait to blame someone else when we, or one of ours, screws up.

So please note, from virtually every corner of the white media , the conversation has shifted from Imus's racism to a full-scale assault on rap music and hip-hop.

In other words, it's those black people's fault when one of ours calls them a name. After all, they do it themselves, and Imus can't be expected not to say "ho" if Ice Cube has done it.

At some point, I'm halfway expecting to hear Bill O'Reilly say that white folks wouldn't have even heard words like nigger if it weren't for 50 Cent.

By seeking to shift blame for Imus's comments, or those of Michael Richards, or whomever, onto black folks, white America has shown our duplicity to be something over which we have no shame.

Of course, we've been doing it a long time.

Witness the way that whites are quick to point out--whenever the issue of slavery is raised--that "blacks in Africa sold other blacks into bondage," as if that would make blacks every bit as culpable as the folks whose wealth was built by the slave system; as if Europeans had only come to Africa for the weather, and had been coerced into the transatlantic slave trade.

Or consider the way that whites blame indigenous people for the mass death they experienced after the invasion of the Americas, by saying, with no sense of misgiving, "Well, it wasn't our fault, I mean, they mostly died of disease," as if native folk would have contracted these diseases short of the desire by whites to conquer the planet for our own aggrandizement.

Or consider the way that whites seek to rationalize racial profiling, by arguing that since blacks have higher crime rates, individual and perfectly innocent blacks really can't complain when cops target them, and should instead blame their own for the way blacks get viewed, and treated; same thing with Arabs and terrorism.

It's their fault, in other words, personal responsibility be damned.

In addition to trying to shift the blame for white racism onto black folks, we whites seem to be congenitally incapable of simply condemning racism, and after such condemnation, ending the sentence with a period.

No indeed, after each condemnation it appears as though we are compelled to offer a comma, followed by a semi-exculpatory clause, which minimizes or outright nullifies the force of the condemnation itself.

As in, "Yes, what Imus said was horrible, and mean-spirited" (and sometimes we'll even admit, racist, although several were unable to verbalize this word), "but he does wonderful charity work," or runs "a camp for kids with cancer."

As in, "Yes, what Michael Richards said was awful and racist, but he was heckled and just lost control" (actually, witnesses say he started in on black audience members before they had said anything to him, so this excuse is not only flimsy, in any event, it's also a lie).

As in, "Yes, Mel Gibson was wrong to say those things, but he'd been drinking."

As in, "Yes, those white officers who shot Amadou Diallo were wrong, but it's tough being a cop in a dangerous neighborhood."

As in, "Yes, the founding fathers mostly owned slaves and were racists, but they were just products of their time and can't be judged by the standards of today"--an argument that is thoroughly offensive, since, after all, admonitions against theft and murder (both of which were implicated in the slave system) have been around for thousands of years.

Not to mention, the idea that "everyone felt that way back then" is false: the slaves certainly didn't, and neither did white abolitionists.

Or, my favorite, as regards the Imus matter: "Yeah, Imus was wrong to say what he said, but the people criticizing him, like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, are even worse."

One has to wonder what white folks would do if Jackson and Sharpton weren't around; who would we have to divert attention from our own biases?

Attacking these two is the default position of white America whenever one of ours does something wrong: "Well what about Jackson? What about Sharpton?"

 

[RobInKuwait]

You also remind me of the Don Imus incident.

One thing was made clear by the Imus incident: namely, white folks are incapable of blaming other whites for white racism and racist behavior.

I'm racist for wanting to discuss why blacks in America are under performing whites in virtually every economic quantifiable categorization in America? Why, because my thesis is that it has to do with something other than the worn out "the man is holding me down" theory?

Or consider the way that whites seek to rationalize racial profiling, by arguing that since blacks have higher crime rates, individual and perfectly innocent blacks really can't complain when cops target them, and should instead blame their own for the way blacks get viewed, and treated; same thing with Arabs and terrorism.

Your racism is appalling. I am white, but my views don't agree with the broad brush of your generalization. You need to come to terms with your own racist beliefs before you can ever truly hope to understand race in America.

It's their fault, in other words, personal responsibility be damned.

In addition to trying to shift the blame for white racism onto black folks, we whites seem to be congenitally incapable of simply condemning racism, and after such condemnation, ending the sentence with a period.

I don't condemn racism, just like I don't condemn liberalism. I don't agree with either school of thought, but free speech is the lynch pin that holds together a free society. I could honestly care less about what ignorant beliefs other people have. I like discussing the reasons behind racial inequalities in America because it makes for a good discussion. Its too bad in your mind you can't overcome injustices that were perpetrated before you were even born so we could have a good discussion without whining about white people holding black people down.

 

[lutherblsstt]

I'm racist for wanting to discuss why blacks in America are under performing whites in virtually every economic quantifiable categorization in America? Why, because my thesis is that it has to do with something other than the worn out "the man is holding me down" theory


Your racism is appalling. I am white, but my views don't agree with the broad brush of your generalization. You need to come to terms with your own racist beliefs before you can ever truly hope to understand race in America.

I notice how concern over adopting a victim mentality is very selectively trotted out by the right.

So, for example, when crime victims band together--and even form what they call victim's rights groups--no one on the right tells them to get over it, or suggests that by continuing to incessantly bleat about their kidnapped child or murdered loved one, such folks are falling prey to a victim mentality that should be resisted.

No indeed: crime victims are venerated, considered experts on proper crime policy (as evidenced by how often their opinions are sought out on the matter by the national press and politicians), and given nothing but sympathy.

Likewise, when American Jews raise a cry over perceived anti-Jewish bigotry, or merely teach their children (as I was taught) about the European Holocaust, replete with a slogan of "Never again!" none of the folks who lament black "victimology" suggests that we too are wallowing in a victimization mentality, or somehow at risk for a syndrome of the same name.

In other words, it is blacks and blacks alone (with the occasional American Indian or Latino thrown in for good measure when and if they get too uppity) that get branded with the victim mentality label.

Not quite drapetomania, but also not far enough from the kind of thinking that gave rise to it: in both cases, rooted in the desire of white America to reject what all logic and evidence suggests is true.

Further, the selective branding of blacks as perpetual victims, absent the application of the pejorative to Jews or crime victims (or the families of 9/11 victims or other acts of terrorism), suggests that at some level white folks simply don't believe black suffering matters. We refuse to view blacks as fully human and deserving of compassion as we do these other groups, for whom victimization has been a reality as well.

It is not that whites care about blacks and simply wish them not to adopt a self-imposed mental straightjacket; rather, it is that at some level we either don't care, or at least don't equate the pain of racism even with the pain caused by being mugged, or having your art collection confiscated by the Nazis, let alone with the truly extreme versions of crime and anti-Semitic wrongdoing.


White denial has become such a widespread phenomenon nowadays, that most whites are unwilling to entertain even the mildest of suggestions that racism and racial inequity might still be issues.

 

[RobInKuwait]

I notice how concern over adopting a victim mentality is very selectively trotted out by the right.

So, for example, when crime victims band together--and even form what they call victim's rights groups--no one on the right tells them to get over it, or suggests that by continuing to incessantly bleat about their kidnapped child or murdered loved one, such folks are falling prey to a victim mentality that should be resisted.

No indeed: crime victims are venerated, considered experts on proper crime policy (as evidenced by how often their opinions are sought out on the matter by the national press and politicians), and given nothing but sympathy.

Likewise, when American Jews raise a cry over perceived anti-Jewish bigotry, or merely teach their children (as I was taught) about the European Holocaust, replete with a slogan of "Never again!" none of the folks who lament black "victimology" suggests that we too are wallowing in a victimization mentality, or somehow at risk for a syndrome of the same name.

In other words, it is blacks and blacks alone (with the occasional American Indian or Latino thrown in for good measure when and if they get too uppity) that get branded with the victim mentality label.

Not quite drapetomania, but also not far enough from the kind of thinking that gave rise to it: in both cases, rooted in the desire of white America to reject what all logic and evidence suggests is true.

Further, the selective branding of blacks as perpetual victims, absent the application of the pejorative to Jews or crime victims (or the families of 9/11 victims or other acts of terrorism), suggests that at some level white folks simply don't believe black suffering matters. We refuse to view blacks as fully human and deserving of compassion as we do these other groups, for whom victimization has been a reality as well.

It is not that whites care about blacks and simply wish them not to adopt a self-imposed mental straightjacket; rather, it is that at some level we either don't care, or at least don't equate the pain of racism even with the pain caused by being mugged, or having your art collection confiscated by the Nazis, let alone with the truly extreme versions of crime and anti-Semitic wrongdoing.


White denial has become such a widespread phenomenon nowadays, that most whites are unwilling to entertain even the mildest of suggestions that racism and racial inequity might still be issues.

I guess the biggest question about racism is: what do you want to do about it.....or more specifically, what do you want your government to do about it.

Affirmative action slowed down integration in the workforce.

Welfare and the war on poverty decreased social mobility and increased poverty.

School busing programs caused decreased integration in schools and neighborhoods and decreased community connections from schools.

In order to increase home ownership for minorities, congress increased subprime lending....we know where that got us.

Basically every initiative to fix the alleged results of racism in America has failed. What is the next step? Find an ideal end point and try to find a way to get us there?

My opinion is that if government stays out of race and capitalism is allowed to work its magic, racism will continue to disappear from American culture. However, if government still tries to mandate programs specifically focused on certain races, racism's problems will be compounded.

 

[lutherblsstt]

I guess the biggest question about racism is: what do you want to do about it.....or more specifically, what do you want your government to do about it.

Affirmative action slowed down integration in the workforce.

Welfare and the war on poverty decreased social mobility and increased poverty.

School busing programs caused decreased integration in schools and neighborhoods and decreased community connections from schools.

In order to increase home ownership for minorities, congress increased subprime lending....we know where that got us.

Basically every initiative to fix the alleged results of racism in America has failed. What is the next step? Find an ideal end point and try to find a way to get us there?

My opinion is that if government stays out of race and capitalism is allowed to work its magic, racism will continue to disappear from American culture. However, if government still tries to mandate programs specifically focused on certain races, racism's problems will be compounded.

One of the first steps to eliminating a problem is actually recognizing there is one and also understanding just what that problem is.

Ignoring problems as deeply rooted and complex as racism does not make them go away,just like ignoring cancer does not prevent its spread.

By the way,privilege is not just afforded to whites. It is something that in this country benefits men, Christians, heterosexuals, able-bodied people, ... I am including a reading list on privilege for those who are open to learning more about the concept and not just interested in staking out a defensive, so-called color blind position. The more that we open up and engage in these discussions, the closer we inch towards eliminating racism (and sexism and every other ism out there).

One of the best known writings on white privilege is "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" by Peggy McIntosh. If you read only one link, this is the one to read. Invalid Link Removed

Several authors and bloggers have built on McIntosh's essay including:

-Robert Jensen, "White Privilege Shapes the U.S." Invalid Link Removed

-Barry Deutsch, The Male Privilege Checklist: An Unabashed Imitation of an Article by Peggy McIntosh
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-Jewel Woods "The Black Male Privileges Checklist"
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Restructure! How Whites benefit from fighting White privilege #1: Self-Esteem (check out the additional links at the end for further reading)
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The Angry Black Woman, Things You Need To Understand #4
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"It is a given that, whenever I engage in debate with a white person and mention privilege, the white person in question gets all upset. “I do NOT have privilege!” they say, and then begin to tell the story of their poor, rural upbringing or something. I think this reaction stems from two sources. Firstly, White Liberal Guilt Invalid Link Removed, which I have written about before. Secondly, a misunderstanding of the word ‘Privilege’."

Ajuan Mance, at Black On Campus, The Black Male Privilege Checklist: An Opportunity for Reflection?

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"One of the hardest things to do is to talk about people who are marginalized in one area about the privileges they have in other areas. Consider, for example, the challenges inherent in speaking with working-class and poor white people about white skin privilege, or in talking to rich white gay men about white privilege, male privilege, and class privilege. I can imagine that this is the same case when it comes to discussing male privilege with men who are Black, especially given African American males’ disproportionate poverty, incarceration, and drop-out rate. Add to this the focus in both the mainstream media and the Black press on portraying African American men as a population in crisis, and on stories like the gender achievement gap between Black men and women....

“The Black Male Privileges Checklist” has the potential to shed what Audre Lorde refers to as “a different quality of light” on the hypermasculine behavior and stereotypes that so many young African American men find so compelling. It’s emphasis on some of the ways that Black manhood and masculinity hurt Black women carries with in an important subtext, that much of what passes for “real” African American manhood also hurts Black men. In the context of workshops led by Jewel Woods and other Black male activists and mentors, an exploration of the “Checklist” could create a space for some much needed reflection on how to embrace maleness and masculinity in ways that expand rather than limit young men’s options."

 

[EasyEJL]

Believe? You think that is the extent of it? I have evidence,not just "beliefs"

1)Persons with "white sounding names," according to a massive national study, are fifty percent more likely to be called back for a job interview than those with "black sounding" names, even when all other credentials are the same

Source: Bertrand, Marianne and Sendhil Mullainathan, 2004. "Are Emily and Greg More Employable Than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment in Labor Market Discrimination." June 20.
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2) White men with a criminal record are slightly more likely to be called back for a job interview than black men without one, even when the men are equally qualified, and present themselves to potential employers in an identical fashion

Source: Pager, Devah. 2003. "The Mark of a Criminal Record." American Journal of Sociology. Volume 108: 5, March: 937-75

3) According to the Justice Department, Black and Latino males are three times more likely than white males to have their vehicles stopped and searched by police, even though white males are over four times more likely to have illegal contraband in our cars on the occasions when we are searched.

Source: Matthew R. Durose, Erica L. Schmitt and Patrick A. Langan, Contacts Between Police and the Public: Findings from the 2002 National Survey. U.S. Department of Justice, (Bureau of Justice Statistics), April 2005

4) Black and Latino students are about half as likely as whites to be placed in advanced or honors classes in school, and twice as likely to be placed in remedial classes? Or that even when test scores and prior performance would justify higher placement, students of color are far less likely to be placed in honors classes.

Source: Gordon, Rebecca. 1998. Education and Race. Oakland: Applied Research Center: 48-9; Fischer, Claude S. et al., 1996. Inequality by Design: Cracking the Bell Curve Myth. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press: 163; Steinhorn, Leonard and Barabara Diggs-Brown, 1999. By the Color of Our Skin: The Illusion of Integration and the Reality of Race. NY: Dutton: 95-6

5) Students of color are 2-3 times more likely than whites to be suspended or expelled from school, even though rates of serious school rule infractions do not differ to any significant degree between racial groups.

Source: Skiba, Russell J. et al., The Color of Discipline: Sources of Racial and Gender Disproportionality in School Punishment. Indiana Education Policy Center, Policy Research Report SRS1, June 2000; U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System: Youth 2003, Online Comprehensive Results, 2004

Fact is, few folks have heard any of these things before, suggesting how little impact scholarly research on the subject of racism has had on the general public, and how difficult it is to make whites, in particular, give the subject a second thought.

6) Contrary to popular belief, research indicates that people of color are actually reluctant to allege racism, be it on the job, or in schools, or anywhere else. Far from "playing the race card" at the drop of a hat, it is actually the case (again, according to scholarly investigation, as opposed to the conventional wisdom of the white public), that black and brown folks typically "stuff" their experiences with discrimination and racism, only making an allegation of such treatment after many, many incidents have transpired, about which they said nothing for fear of being ignored or attacked.

Source: Terrell, Francis and Sandra L. Terrell, 1999. "Cultural Identification and Cultural Mistrust: Some Findings and Implications," in Advances in African American Psychology, Reginald Jones, ed., Hampton VA: Cobb & Henry; Fuegen, Kathleen, 2000. "Defining Discrimination in the Personal/Group Discrimination Discrepancy," Sex Roles: A Journal of Research. September; Miller, Carol T. 2001. "A Theoretical Perspective on Coping With Stigma," Journal of Social Issues. Spring; Feagin, Joe, Hernan Vera and Nikitah Imani, 1996. The Agony of Education: Black Students in White Colleges and Universities. NY: Routledge.

The fundamental flaw in many of the arguments posted here is the suggestion--implicit though it may be--that prior to the creation of affirmative action, white folks were mostly on board the racial justice and equal opportunity train, and were open to hearing about claims of racism from persons of color.

Yet nothing could be further from the truth

Simply put: whites in every generation have thought there was no real problem with racism, irrespective of the evidence, and in every generation we have been wrong.

What you have here is no proof of racism, but a number of statistics that you CHOOSE to interpret as racism.

In the first study, which the link is bad so I couldn't totally evaluate, all it proves is that odd sounding names got less callbacks. Its not proof of whites trying to hold other races down, but proof that if hiring managers have more applicants than they are willing to call back that they have some criteria to which they initially use to shorten the list. If i have 200 applicants for one position, i'm going to knock the list down to 20 that I actually call, and 5-10 that I interview. That 180 will be tossed for all sorts of things, and a non-even distribution is not proof of the reason why the distribution is uneven. In the IT industry 24% of employees are women. Does that prove sexism in the IT industry? No.


In the second study, she states herself "Of course, it is
impossible, even in an experimental design, to rule out the possibility that unmeasured differences between the black testers and the white testers systematically bias the results (see Heckman and Siegelman 1993).". So what you have is proof that the group of black convicts they used are less likely to be called back than the group of white convicts they used, not proof of racism.

The third study is the same as well. It can possibly be answered just by income levels, as an older car in poorer state of repair is also more likely to have a light out or other issue, and more likely to have expired tags or no insurance, so more reasonable for a police officer to pull over. Proof of racism? hardly.

On the school one, 2 of the references are books so I can't quite look directly at them, but in the one I can read heres a tidbit for you

Average SAT scores
African American 857
Puerto Rican 901
Mexican American 909
Other Latino 934
Native People 950
Other 1026
White 1052
Asians and Pacific Islanders 1056

Several factors may explain the racial disparity in test
results. These include:
• The continuing effects of unequal education.
• Lack of access to expensive “coaching” courses,
on which parents and students spend more than
$50 million each year. These courses have been
shown to raise SAT scores by more than 100
points.
• The possibility of cultural bias in the tests themselves,
or in the test-taking environment. For
example, the ETS is planning to move all testing
to PC computer-based exams, which will be a
more familiar setting for students who regularly
use computers.

Although there is a significant difference (nearly 20%) between white and black scores, theres no claim to racism, and there are non-racism related possibilities for the differences, as with all of your statistics.


On the school suspensions its also hogwash of the same sort.

National Center for Education Statistics’ longitudinal
study, which tracked students who were eighth-graders
in 1988. Four years later, in 1992, this sample was examined
to see what proportion of students had ever been
suspended. The results appeared in the Department of
Education’s publication, The Condition of Education
1997, and are summarized in the table below:
This table reveals some startling facts:
• Almost 25% of all African American male students
were suspended during the four years studied.
• In general, chances of suspension for African
Americans were more than twice as high as those
for whites or Asians and Pacific Islanders.
• But this relationship did not hold true for the
poorest Asians and Pacific Islanders: At 22%,
their suspension rate was almost as high as that
of the poorest African American students.

Oakland, California: A 1992 study of discipline in
the public schools found that African American
students were three times as likely to be suspended
as all other students combined. African Ameri-
can males accounted for 28% of enrollment, but
for 53% of all suspensions.

No statements as to "equal rates of infractions" that I can see. So yes, you have proof that black males were more likely to be suspended, but outside of actually tracking their actions there is no proof that it is racism related, its just a statistic.

the one on waiting to play the race card is just as funny, honestly when so much of "proof of racism" comes from the person who believes they are discriminated against's imagination to begin with, its not surprising they wait a while.

Heres some more statistics for you. tell me if you can answer the Why they happen. I know I can't.

Roughly 75% of white (including all non-black so hispanic too) children live in households with both parents, less than 45% of black children do. More than 20% of black children live in households where the primary householder is over 65, less than 5% of white children do. More than 50% of black children live in a home with a single female househoulder, less than 40% of white children do.
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38% of HIV/AIDs infections reported to the CDC is from blacks, which is more than 2x their population makeup. The teen birth rate for black women is 85.3 births per 1000 women, while the caucasian rate is 45.4 per 1000

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Are any of these proof of racism? or proof of anything other than their own statistics? No, they aren't. I can't make claims as to why more black children are raised by single moms or grandmothers than white children, and so few are raised by their mothers and fathers together. Or why the black teen birth rate is so much higher, all I can say is that it IS.

So again, believing in racism at this point largely comes from believing in racism, different groups looked at in different ways have uneven statistical distributions of factoids. None of which is proof of the reasons why those things are that way.

 

[RobInKuwait]

One of the first steps to eliminating a problem is actually recognizing there is one and also understanding just what that problem is.

Ignoring problems as deeply rooted and complex as racism does not make them go away,just like ignoring cancer does not prevent its spread.

I disagree, the more people focus on their differences, the more they think about their differences.

Democrats over the last 40 years have focused on race. It has divided this country into special interest race groups in addition to all the consequences of their government programs I outlined in the previous post. This division encourages racism. The best way to end racism is get over it, live your life, and stop caring so damned much about what other people think of you and why they think it.

 

[lutherblsstt]

What you have here is no proof of racism, but a number of statistics that you CHOOSE to interpret as racism.

In the first study, which the link is bad so I couldn't totally evaluate, all it proves is that odd sounding names got less callbacks. Its not proof of whites trying to hold other races down, but proof that if hiring managers have more applicants than they are willing to call back that they have some criteria to which they initially use to shorten the list. If i have 200 applicants for one position, i'm going to knock the list down to 20 that I actually call, and 5-10 that I interview. That 180 will be tossed for all sorts of things, and a non-even distribution is not proof of the reason why the distribution is uneven. In the IT industry 24% of employees are women. Does that prove sexism in the IT industry? No.


In the second study, she states herself "Of course, it is
impossible, even in an experimental design, to rule out the possibility that unmeasured differences between the black testers and the white testers systematically bias the results (see Heckman and Siegelman 1993).". So what you have is proof that the group of black convicts they used are less likely to be called back than the group of white convicts they used, not proof of racism.

The third study is the same as well. It can possibly be answered just by income levels, as an older car in poorer state of repair is also more likely to have a light out or other issue, and more likely to have expired tags or no insurance, so more reasonable for a police officer to pull over. Proof of racism? hardly.

On the school one, 2 of the references are books so I can't quite look directly at them, but in the one I can read heres a tidbit for you



Although there is a significant difference (nearly 20%) between white and black scores, theres no claim to racism, and there are non-racism related possibilities for the differences, as with all of your statistics.


On the school suspensions its also hogwash of the same sort.




No statements as to "equal rates of infractions" that I can see. So yes, you have proof that black males were more likely to be suspended, but outside of actually tracking their actions there is no proof that it is racism related, its just a statistic.

the one on waiting to play the race card is just as funny, honestly when so much of "proof of racism" comes from the person who believes they are discriminated against's imagination to begin with, its not surprising they wait a while.

Heres some more statistics for you. tell me if you can answer the Why they happen. I know I can't.

Roughly 75% of white (including all non-black so hispanic too) children live in households with both parents, less than 45% of black children do. More than 20% of black children live in households where the primary householder is over 65, less than 5% of white children do. More than 50% of black children live in a home with a single female househoulder, less than 40% of white children do.
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38% of HIV/AIDs infections reported to the CDC is from blacks, which is more than 2x their population makeup. The teen birth rate for black women is 85.3 births per 1000 women, while the caucasian rate is 45.4 per 1000

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Are any of these proof of racism? or proof of anything other than their own statistics? No, they aren't. I can't make claims as to why more black children are raised by single moms or grandmothers than white children, and so few are raised by their mothers and fathers together. Or why the black teen birth rate is so much higher, all I can say is that it IS.

So again, believing in racism at this point largely comes from believing in racism, different groups looked at in different ways have uneven statistical distributions of factoids. None of which is proof of the reasons why those things are that way.

Your argument comes down to "its all in their head". I guess when American Jews raise a cry over perceived anti-Jewish bigotry, or merely teach their children (as I was taught) about the European Holocaust, replete with a slogan of "Never again!" they too are wallowing in a victimization mentality or just "believe in it".

Of course white denial never surprises me these days.

To wit,a recent survey from the University of Chicago, in which whites and blacks were asked two questions about Hurricane Katrina and the governmental response to the tragedy. First, respondents were asked whether they believed the government response would have been speedier had the victims been white. Not surprisingly, only twenty percent of whites answered in the affirmative.

But while that question is at least conceivably arguable, the next question seems so weakly worded that virtually anyone could have answered yes without committing too much in the way of recognition that racism was a problem. Yet the answers given reveal the depths of white intransigence to consider the problem a problem at all.

So when asked if we believed the Katrina tragedy showed that there was a lesson to be learned about racial inequality in America--any lesson at all--while ninety percent of blacks said yes, only thirty-eight percent of whites agreed .

To us, Katrina said nothing about race whatsoever, even as blacks were disproportionately affected; even as there was a clear racial difference in terms of who was stuck in New Orleans and who was able to escape; even as the media focused incessantly on reports of black violence in the Superdome and Convention Center that proved later to be false; even as blacks have been having a much harder time moving back to New Orleans, thanks to local and federal foot-dragging and the plans of economic elites in the city to destroy homes in the most damaged (black) neighborhoods and convert them to non-residential (or higher rent) uses.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, has to do with race nowadays, in the eyes of white America writ large.

But the obvious question is this: if we have never seen racism as a real problem, contemporary to the time in which the charges are being made, and if in all generations past we were obviously wrong to the point of mass delusion in thinking this way, what should lead us to conclude that now, at long last, we've become any more astute at discerning social reality than we were before?

Why should we trust our own perceptions or instincts on the matter, when we have run up such an amazingly bad track record as observers of the world in which we live? In every era, black folks said they were the victims of racism and they were right. In every era, whites have said the problem was exaggerated, and we have been wrong.

Unless we wish to conclude that black insight on the matter--which has never to this point failed them--has suddenly converted to irrationality, and that white irrationality has become insight (and are prepared to prove this transformation by way of some analytical framework to explain the process), then the best advice seems to be that which could have been offered in past decades and centuries: namely, if you want to know about whether or not racism is a problem, it would probably do you best to ask the folks who are its targets.

They, after all, are the ones who must, as a matter of survival, learn what it is, and how and when it's operating. We whites on the other hand, are the persons who have never had to know a thing about it, and who--for reasons psychological, philosophical and material--have always had a keen interest in covering it up.

More sources:

There is plenty of information about police racism, misconduct and brutality, both in historical and contemporary terms, available from any number of sources. Among them, see Kristian Williams, Our Enemies in Blue. Soft Skull Press, 2004; and online at the Stolen Lives Project:Invalid Link Removed.

Ford, Glen and Peter Campbell, 2006. "Katrina: A Study-Black Consensus, White Dispute," The Black Commentator, Issue 165, January 5

 

[EasyEJL]

Its amazing that you are the only one here who has spouted racism

 

[searl12]

you need to give it a rest, honestly

 

[lutherblsstt]

Its amazing that you are the only one here who has spouted racism

And.....

Are we supposed to make sure at least one other person agrees with our analysis before posting? I must have missed that in the forum rules.

 

[EasyEJL]

And.....

Are we supposed to make sure at least one other person agrees with our analysis before posting? I must have missed that in the forum rules.

Not sure how that relates to anything, but in a discussion about racism what you do is rant about how "whites are mentally unbalanced" its obvious you are the one here who is racist, and obvious that you aren't open to logic. It just adds further disproof to what you are saying, and lends credence to what i am saying. If you go forward in life TRYING to believe that all the "white world" is filled with racism, you will see all sorts of differences in peoples lives that can be attributed to that. If you go forward in life trying to believe that racism isn't pandemic and systemic any longer, you'll be amazed at how many of the same things you see are just as well attributed to income levels, educational levels, family structure, etc and that racism isn't necessarily involved.

So when asked if we believed the Katrina tragedy showed that there was a lesson to be learned about racial inequality in America--any lesson at all--while ninety percent of blacks said yes, only thirty-eight percent of whites agreed .

Proves my point as well. The white group saw no lesson to be learned about racial inequality as what happened in Katrina was more related to income levels, poor city planning, poor state and county preparedness. Where does race come into it? It doesn't, except in the eyes of people looking to find it there. I see no lesson to be learned about racial inequality that is related to Katrina. Its no new lesson that more black families live in poverty, and in crowded inner city areas. Its no lesson that those black families are less likely to have transportation. Where is the lesson there to be learned that we didn't already know?

 

[Jayhawkk]

You can find racism in anything and i'll be the first to admit racism is very much out there and alive. However, it's become too much of a talking point.

"blacks in Africa sold other blacks into bondage," as if that would make blacks every bit as culpable as the folks whose wealth was built by the slave system..."

Some use it as a way to push blame elsewhere but others use this to show that whites are not the only people in this world capable of things like slave trading. I believe whites in this country are in the position they are in only ONLY because they happened to be the race that moved everything forward... here. The race and slave issue is one of power and hunger for more power and wealth as well as ignorance of human worth. Whoever the dominating race of that region is will do their best to use whatever means necessary to get to the bottom lime of more power..


I guess my point is lost in my rambling but what I wanted to say is: All races are filled with the capability to take away the freedoms of another race and even their own. It isn't a white only tradition and I would imagine if family trees were able to be traced reliably enough, you would likely find someone in a subordinate/save role that has ancestry in a revered role.

I don't have an issue with minorities still needing assistance in certain areas because the 1960's isn't that long ago. I'm saying that 300-400 years ago needs to, at some point, be lessoned as a personal infraction.

 

[lutherblsstt]

Not sure how that relates to anything, but in a discussion about racism what you do is rant about how "whites are mentally unbalanced" its obvious you are the one here who is racist, and obvious that you aren't open to logic. It just adds further disproof to what you are saying, and lends credence to what i am saying. If you go forward in life TRYING to believe that all the "white world" is filled with racism, you will see all sorts of differences in peoples lives that can be attributed to that. If you go forward in life trying to believe that racism isn't pandemic and systemic any longer, you'll be amazed at how many of the same things you see are just as well attributed to income levels, educational levels, family structure, etc and that racism isn't necessarily involved.



Proves my point as well. The white group saw no lesson to be learned about racial inequality as what happened in Katrina was more related to income levels, poor city planning, poor state and county preparedness. Where does race come into it? It doesn't, except in the eyes of people looking to find it there. I see no lesson to be learned about racial inequality that is related to Katrina. Its no new lesson that more black families live in poverty, and in crowded inner city areas. Its no lesson that those black families are less likely to have transportation. Where is the lesson there to be learned that we didn't already know?

There's an old adage that numbers can be made to say anything one chooses; and while this is not exactly true--after all, one can't make 2+2=5--it is certainly the case that data often gets manipulated in order to advance a particular argument.

Or in the words of the famous quip: "Liars always figure and figures always lie."

Nowhere is this more apparent than in the efforts of those who try valiantly to deny the persistence of racism in American life.

Whenever the issue is raised, skeptics have a ready excuse for what appears, to most, to be clear evidence of racial discrimination. Whether the area of interest is income inequality, wealth accumulation, differential outcomes for blacks and whites seeking mortgages, or disparities in the justice system, there will be those who insist the gaps are caused by anything but racial bias.

Case in point, a recent report based on police data in the Nashville Tennessean, which suggests that there is no racial bias against people of color in terms of ticketing them for traffic violations.

Profiles in Distortion:

An Analysis of Traffic Stops, Race and Media Deception in Nashville, Tennessee

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More studies for you:

Fagan and Davies, 2000: 457, 479. The study found that blacks and Latinos are approximately 2-2.5 times more likely than whites to be stopped and frisked by police, even after controlling for local neighborhood demographics and relative racial crime rates, both of which might "explain" disproportionate rates of stoppage. Yet, when stopped, whites were more likely to be found to have violated a law such as drug or weapons possession.

Matthew R. Durose, Erica L. Schmitt and Patrick A. Langan, Contacts Between Police and the Public: Findings from the 2002 National Survey. U.S. Department of Justice, (Bureau of Justice Statistics), April 2005. This data indicates that blacks are three times more likely than whites to be stopped in their vehicles and searched for drugs or other illegal contraband, even though whites are nearly four-and-a-half times more likely to actually be found in possession of such items, on those occasions when they are stopped.

 

[lutherblsstt]

You can find racism in anything and i'll be the first to admit racism is very much out there and alive. However, it's become too much of a talking point.

How so?

I don't have an issue with minorities still needing assistance in certain areas because the 1960's isn't that long ago. I'm saying that 300-400 years ago needs to, at some point, be lessoned as a personal infraction.

Whites generally in the U.S. love to live in the past, so long as it's a past that makes us feel good and venerates us as heroes.

So whether its waxing emotional about the greatness of our founding fathers, or waving an American flag on Independence Day, or prattling on about some ancestor who died in battle at Gettysburg, the point is the same: to lift up the past and to remain stuck there, at least for a while. But let anyone suggest the less noble side of that same past and watch how quickly history gets relegated to the ashbin of the irrelevant.

Those who wave the Confederate flag, for example, insist they are merely trying to fondly remember part of their history.

Yet if blacks (including, to be sure, more than a few Southerners) broach the subject of their ancestors' enslavement and its lingering effects on black America today, they are viewed as wallowing in pity. But what, other than wallowing, and most certainly pitiable, can we call those who insist on waving the standard of a defeated government, some one hundred and forty one years after it fell? Really now, let us move on indeed!

 

[EasyEJL]

Nowhere is this more apparent than in the efforts of those who try valiantly to deny the persistence of racism in American life.

Thats not true its worse in racist pigs like yourself, who will attempt to find any possible fit to prove their racist theories.

 

[EasyEJL]

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[lutherblsstt]

Thats not true its worse in racist pigs like yourself, who will attempt to find any possible fit to prove their racist theories.

Apparently denial is not just a river in Egypt.

 

[lutherblsstt]

touché

 

[Jayhawkk]

How so?





Whites generally in the U.S. love to live in the past, so long as it's a past that makes us feel good and venerates us as heroes.

Everyone loves to live in the past when celebrating their past or their culture's past. All races and heritages do this. Mostly considered celebrating tradition or a positive moment in the past that led to great things in the present...

So whether its waxing emotional about the greatness of our founding fathers, or waving an American flag on Independence Day, or prattling on about some ancestor who died in battle at Gettysburg, the point is the same: to lift up the past and to remain stuck there, at least for a while. But let anyone suggest the less noble side of that same past and watch how quickly history gets relegated to the ashbin of the irrelevant.

Again, this isn't a white only or American only phenomenon.

Those who wave the Confederate flag, for example, insist they are merely trying to fondly remember part of their history.

I would be willing to bet that there is much more outrage by everyone only the flying of a confederate flag moreso than those defending it. As a matter of personal experience with a lot of re-enactors; they tend to say the flag flown by most people isn't even the correct flag of the confederate.

Yet if blacks (including, to be sure, more than a few Southerners) broach the subject of their ancestors' enslavement and its lingering effects on black America today, they are viewed as wallowing in pity. But what, other than wallowing, and most certainly pitiable, can we call those who insist on waving the standard of a defeated government, some one hundred and forty one years after it fell? Really now, let us move on indeed!

There's a difference between recognizing history and inpact and continually playing a victim's role and using that as an excuse not to move forward. This isn't just a race issue but those who use their past as a constant means to stay a victim without doing much to improve their own station in life. This isn't just about talking about someone experiencing rasicm in the workplace or in their personal life but those who would say their ancestors being slaves is reason for financial reward.

Let's say there's a white woman who worked for about 5 years of her adult wife and her exhusband died leaving behind a social security check. She decides to live off of social security because she deserves a break and stops working completely living a minimal existence because she's owed this money and if she worked she would lose this money and barely make more than what she gets now unemployed. It's a life of living with excuses and being a victim.

Obviously some people's excuses and reasons are more justified than others and my comparison isn't meant to take away from the impact that racism has had.

I have to go to a meeting and hopefully will remember to come back and polish this up a little

 

[EasyEJL]

Apparently denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Right, your denial that your racism against whites colors your view of how you think others feel is rather sad.

I don't know your own racial heritage, but it is just as possible to be racist against your own race as against others.

 

[lutherblsstt]

There's a difference between recognizing history and inpact and continually playing a victim's role and using that as an excuse not to move forward. This isn't just a race issue but those who use their past as a constant means to stay a victim without doing much to improve their own station in life.

Who does that?

This isn't just about talking about someone experiencing rasicm in the workplace or in their personal life but those who would say their ancestors being slaves is reason for financial reward.

Who said that?

Love to get your thoughts on this:

RETHINKING RACISM: TOWARDS A STRUCTURAL INTERPRETATION
by Eduardo Bonilla-Silva
University of Michigan

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[lutherblsstt]

Right, your denial that your racism against whites colors your view of how you think others feel is rather sad.

:laugh: OK

I don't know your own racial heritage, but it is just as possible to be racist against your own race as against others.

Recognizing institutional racism as part and parcel of the fabric of this country is "racist against your own race"? :laugh:

 

[EasyEJL]

:laugh: OK



Recognizing institutional racism as part and parcel of the fabric of this country is "racist against your own race"? :laugh:

Statements of how whites are mentally unbalanced, lacking a grip on reality, etc are. Thats the definition of racism, perhaps you need a dictionary

 

[lutherblsstt]

Statements of how whites are mentally unbalanced, lacking a grip on reality, etc are. Thats the definition of racism, perhaps you need a dictionary

Not when you put it into context with the rest of what I wrote. Look up context while you have your dictionary out.

 

[EasyEJL]

Not when you put it into context with the rest of what I wrote. Look up context while you have your dictionary out.

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life

Again, by your logic (really lack thereof), the statistics on teen birth for black women could be used in context to state that black 16 year old girls are promiscuous whores, or that the statistics on single mother raised black children means that black men don't care about their children, neither of which i believe is true.

Its apparent that you are "over-universitied while being under-educated in reality", but that is the fate of students in the current liberal run educational system.

 

[lutherblsstt]

Again, by your logic (really lack thereof), the statistics on teen birth for black women could be used in context to state that black 16 year old girls are promiscuous whores, or that the statistics on single mother raised black children means that black men don't care about their children, neither of which i believe is true.

Not by my logic,by my logic the way you want to frame it to make a straw man attempt.

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

Its apparent that you are "over-universitied while being under-educated in reality", but that is the fate of students in the current liberal run educational system.

Right,too much data,research,evidence,etc. and not enough "reality" :laugh:

Taking things out of the racial context for a minute: imagine persons who are able bodied, as opposed to those with disabilities.

If I were to say that able-bodied persons have certain advantages, certain privileges if you will, which disabled persons do not, who would argue the point? I imagine that no one would. It's too obvious, right?

To be disabled is to face numerous obstacles.

And although many persons with disabilities overcome those obstacles, this fact doesn't take away from the fact that they exist. Likewise, that persons with disabilities can and do overcome obstacles every day, doesn't deny that those of us who are able-bodied have an edge. We have one less thing to think and worry about as we enter a building, go to a workplace, or just try and navigate the contours of daily life. The fact that there are lots of able-bodied people who are poor, and some disabled folks who are rich, doesn't alter the general rule: on balance, it pays to be able-bodied.

That's all I'm saying about white privilege: on balance, it pays to be a member of the dominant racial group. It doesn't mean that a white person will get everything they want in life, or win every competition, but it does mean that there are general advantages that we receive.

One more example

Although data from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration indicates that whites are equally or more likely than blacks or Latinos to use drugs, it is people of color (blacks and Latinos mostly) who comprise about 90 percent of the persons incarcerated for a drug possession offense. Despite the fact that white men are more likely to be caught with drugs in our car (on those occasions when we are searched), black men remain about four times more likely than white men to be searched in the first place, according to Justice Department findings. That's privilege for the dominant group.

That's the point: privilege is the flipside of discrimination. If people of color face discrimination, in housing, employment and elsewhere, then the rest of us are receiving a de facto subsidy, a privilege, an advantage in those realms of daily life. There can be no down without an up, in other words.

None of this means that white folks don't face challenges. Of course we do, and some of them (based on class, gender, sexual orientation, disability status, or other factors) are systemic and institutionalized. But on balance, we can take for granted that we will receive a leg-up on those persons of color with whom we share a nation.

And no, affirmative action doesn't change any of this.

Despite white fears to the contrary, even with affirmative action in place (which, contrary to popular belief does not allow quotas or formal set-asides except in those rare cases where blatant discrimination has been proven) whites hold about ninety percent of all the management level jobs in this country, receive about ninety-four percent of government contract dollars, and hold ninety percent of tenured faculty positions on college campuses.

And in spite of affirmative action programs, whites are more likely than members of any other racial group to be admitted to their college of first choice.* And according to a study released last year, for every student of color who received even the slightest consideration from an affirmative action program in college, there are two whites who failed to meet normal qualification requirements at the same school, but who got in anyway because of parental influence, alumni status or because other favors were done.

Furthermore, although white students often think that so-called minority scholarships are a substantial drain on financial aid resources that would otherwise be available to them, nothing could be further from the truth.

According to a national study by the General Accounting Office, less than four percent of scholarship money in the U.S. is represented by awards that consider race as a factor at all, while only 0.25 percent (that's one quarter of one percent for the math challenged) of all undergrad scholarship dollars come from awards that are restricted to persons of color alone.

What's more, the idea that large numbers of students of color receive the benefits of race-based scholarships is lunacy of the highest order. In truth, only 3.5 percent of college students of color receive any scholarship even partly based on race, suggesting that such programs remain a pathetically small piece of the financial aid picture in this country, irrespective of what a gaggle of reactionary white folks might believe.**

In other words, despite the notion that somehow we have attained an equal opportunity, or color-blind society, the fact is, we are far from an equitable nation.

People of color continue to face obstacles based solely on color, and whites continue to reap benefits from the same. None of this makes whites bad people, and none of it means we should feel guilty or beat ourselves up. But it does mean we need to figure out how we're going to be accountable for our unearned advantages.

*U.S Federal Glass Ceiling Commission, Good for Business: Making Full Use of the Nation's Human Capital. (Washington DC: Bureau of National Affairs, March 1995); Fred L. Pincus, Reverse Discrimination: Dismantling the Myth. (Boulder: Lynne Rienner Publishers, 2003), 18; Roberta J. Hill, "Far More Than Frybread," in Race in the College Classroom: Pedagogy and Politics, ed. Bonnie TuSmith and Maureen T. Reddy. (New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers University Press), 169; Sylvia Hurtado and Christine Navia, "Reconciling College Access and the Affirmative Action Debate," in Affirmative Action's Testament of Hope, ed. Mildred Garcia (Albany, NY: SUNY Press, 1997), 115.

**U.S. General Accounting Office, 1994. "Information on Minority Targeted Scholarships," B251634. Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, January; Stephen L. Carter, "Color-Blind and Color-Active," 1992. The Recorder. January 3.

 

[EasyEJL]

Taking things out of the racial context for a minute: imagine persons who are able bodied, as opposed to those with disabilities.

If I were to say that able-bodied persons have certain advantages, certain privileges if you will, which disabled persons do not, who would argue the point? I imagine that no one would. It's too obvious, right?

Its comical again, that you can call a valid argument of mine a straw man, then post a straw man argument of your own. An individual's lack of physical ability to accomplish a task does not mean that a person who is capable of performing that task (take climbing a flight of stairs, ladder, even a hill) is privileged, it merely proves that different people have different capabilities.

 

[lutherblsstt]

Its comical again, that you can call a valid argument of mine a straw man, then post a straw man argument of your own. An individual's lack of physical ability to accomplish a task does not mean that a person who is capable of performing that task (take climbing a flight of stairs, ladder, even a hill) is privileged, it merely proves that different people have different capabilities.

Again,look up context.

"To be disabled is to face numerous obstacles.

And although many persons with disabilities overcome those obstacles, this fact doesn't take away from the fact that they exist. Likewise, that persons with disabilities can and do overcome obstacles every day, doesn't deny that those of us who are able-bodied have an edge. We have one less thing to think and worry about as we enter a building, go to a workplace, or just try and navigate the contours of daily life. The fact that there are lots of able-bodied people who are poor, and some disabled folks who are rich, doesn't alter the general rule: on balance, it pays to be able-bodied."