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Zero Tolerance

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A few months ago, I weighed 239.6 lbs at 26.9% bodyfat and 38.3% lean mass... On December 1st, I started Epistane at 30mg per day to reduce some gyno and did about 5 weeks. Before I stopped, I started doing Cypionate at about 500mg per week and after a few weeks of no Epistane, I added Max LMG - which I stopped a couple of days ago. This morning, my stats are as follows:

218.2 pounds at 23.6% bodyfat and 34.9% lean mass.

Anyone here good at math? I'd like to get an idea how much muscle I've lost compared to fat.. I started the Cypionate and Max LMG planning on adding weight - and I did. I weighed about 245 a couple of weeks in.. But I realized I was looking pretty bad with all the fat - and decided to make it a fatloss cycle and figured the testosterone would allow me to keep most of my muscle. It appears to me that this has not gone on my favor as much as I would have liked. I DO look much different - I'm more defined, a bit more vascular and I'm starting to appear like a guy in good shape.

Oh, sad to say I had to drop my caloric intake to 1200 daily - otherwise I just wasn't losing anything. I do cardio for 20 minutes after weight training and 40 minutes on non-training days. I usually rest on Saturday and Sunday but do a good bit of walking.. My protein intake is approximately 1 gram per pound of body weight. When doing cardio, I keep my heart rate at around 140 beats per minute to hopefully burn more fat than muscle.

I have about a week left on this high dose of Cypionate before I drop down to a TRT dose of about 200mg each week. I'll be on TRT for the rest of my life..

Thanks in advance for any help or information one can provide me with.
 
Just to note - I lost 3.3% fat and 3.4% lean mass. Is that normal for someone who's eating a lot of protein on a calorie deficit while using testosterone?
 
i would up the protein to preserve more muscle. but considering ur only eating 1200 calories, expect to lose both fat and muscle.....id wither away in 2 weeks on that little
 
that to me, doesn't seem to make much sense. Also 1200 calories is beyond deficit in my eyes for your size. compounded with cardio and weight lifting and you sure aren't taking much in to sustain yourself. that would be why your body is catabolizing itself.
 
Well.. It seems like anything over 1200 and I really don't lose any weight. With all the work I'm doing, I'll only lose a pound a week on more calories.. I really want to be down to 200 pounds as quickly as possible. Of course, I don't want to lose a lot of muscle - but maybe that's a tradeoff I'm going to have to accept..

The Cypionate I'm taking now is two years old. I'm about to start taking some that's a little over a year old. Maybe I'll be better off with the newer batch. The two year old one is definitely working because I went from zero libido to uncontrollable. Maybe it's just lost enough potency to keep me from really retaining as much as possible..

Any thoughts?
 
I would not use testosterone or MaxLMG if i had more than 20%BF. You will likely have extremely high estrogen levels, making it very hard to lose fat, and even harder to recover during PCT (you estrogen would be out the roof).
 
nattydisaster said:
I would not use testosterone or MaxLMG if i had more than 20%BF. You will likely have extremely high estrogen levels, making it very hard to lose fat, and even harder to recover during PCT (you estrogen would be out the roof).
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I am taking P-5-P, Bromo, Tamoxifen and HCG. Since I'm off the Max LMG, the P-5-P and Bromo are finished.. So I'm left with Tamoxifen and HCG, which (to some extent) I will always be taking being on TRT.. There is no PCT.
 
Any further thoughts, opinions or advice for me? Is this type of muscle loss typical for someone with such limited caloric intake even while taking androgens?
 
yes that muscle loss should have been fully anticipated. steroids are anti-catabolic but when you're 240 pounds and eating 1200 calories a day you are just starving your muscles. Don't starve yourself like that to lose weight, instead up the cardio, you sound like an endomorph, you might have to work at it for a while to get your bodyfat down.
 
Yeah, I'm an endomorph.. I was afraid of what you're suggesting.. Eat more calories and lose weight slower.. I guess one pound of fat per week would be wiser than 1.5 fat and 1.5 muscle.

One of my problems is that fact that I sit down for a living. I do either weight lifting or cardio 5 days per week and I move around a lot on the weekend.. Maybe an extra 200-400 calories would do the trick. What do you think?
 
Zero Tolerance said:
Yeah, I'm an endomorph.. I was afraid of what you're suggesting.. Eat more calories and lose weight slower.. I guess one pound of fat per week would be wiser than 1.5 fat and 1.5 muscle.

One of my problems is that fact that I sit down for a living. I do either weight lifting or cardio 5 days per week and I move around a lot on the weekend.. Maybe an extra 200-400 calories would do the trick. What do you think?
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it doesn't necessarily work that way. consider that muscle requires calories to maintain it, where fat does not. if you loose 1.5 pounds of both, you'll loose fat slower, since your maintenance calories have declined (you lost muscle). definitely up the calories a bit to maybe 2k with heavy protein moderate fat low carb, and up the cardio to get rid of the fat.
 
suncloud said:
definitely up the calories a bit to maybe 2k with heavy protein moderate fat low carb, and up the cardio to get rid of the fat.
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I was just about to type that..you could try carb cycing or HIIT cardio. Starving yourself is never the answer, try biking to work instead of driving. I bike 16 miles to and from work and next month plan to jog it instead of biking a few times a week for marathon training.
 
Here's my problem, guys.. The amount of cardio I'm doing now is something that I can sustain for a long, long time. Any more than this, it's not something I can stick to. I'm looking to the future and want to remain on track with a plan I can sustain. If I add calories and do more cardio, the fat is just going to come back when I lower the intensity.

At the rate I'm going, I can probably expect to be about 198 pounds in a couple of months - down to 20% body fat and 32% lean mass. When all is said and done, I'll feel much better (and look much better) then compared to the 239.6 lbs at 26.9% bodyfat and 38.3% lean mass from a few months ago..

I guess I was just hoping to lose less muscle mass and it appears the only way I can do that is by adding a few more calories and losing at a slower pace...
 
Zero Tolerance said:
Here's my problem, guys.. The amount of cardio I'm doing now is something that I can sustain for a long, long time. Any more than this, it's not something I can stick to. I'm looking to the future and want to remain on track with a plan I can sustain. If I add calories and do more cardio, the fat is just going to come back when I lower the intensity.

At the rate I'm going, I can probably expect to be about 198 pounds in a couple of months - down to 20% body fat and 32% lean mass. When all is said and done, I'll feel much better (and look much better) then compared to the 239.6 lbs at 26.9% bodyfat and 38.3% lean mass from a few months ago..

I guess I was just hoping to lose less muscle mass and it appears the only way I can do that is by adding a few more calories and losing at a slower pace...
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Bro your missing a few points about weight loss, and about goals..
Wide ranging goals set you up for faliure.. trying to loose alot of BF and save muscle or gainin muscle is a goal that sets you up to fail.. a tight defined goal, to just lose all the BF you can, sets you up for sucess.. all your efforts can be tuned to that goal.. you have only one concearn, droping lots of BF..
Later after you finish that goal, you can set a goal of gaining muscle mass..

First your trying to loose alot of bodyfat... it's good for your long term health, you need to have a definte purpose about you to drop your BF down to a healthy long term level.. your gonna get back what you put out, but don't assume that it will keep coming off as easy as it has at first.. it doesn't and expecting it to sets you up for disapointment..
You have to be mentally prepared to bust your but, sacrafice, and keep a POSITIVE outlook the whole time... it's a time for you to find out how strong you are in the head and in the heart...
A few suggestions and comments...
You need to choose a healthy diet for your lifestyle choice long term.. that's how you loose BF and keep it off long term...
I'm a guy who likes to feed the furnace, and food keeps it burning all day hot.. that is 6 smaller meals a day.. high protien, lowerish/ mod carbs and good fats..
When your digesting food all day long your metab burns faster, your insluin level stays pretty steady thru out the day.. you use the energy from the smaller meals as your body processes it, super large meals end up with fat storgage..
Turkey, chicken, tuna, are low fat meats.. fruits and veggies will give you carbs, but I eat a ton of em.. I'm not afraid of those good carbs, and the vits and minerals in them are great for long term health.. carbs from whole wheats too, but they are a smaller part of my diet.. but I steer away from the sat fats and sugars, that crap makes me fat..
Now the 1200 cals a day you taking in isn't gonna work long term.. you need 6 well constructed small meals that let you get the nutrition you need but allows for fat loss with the exercise you do.. it might not be as quick as starving your self, but that isn't a plan for long term sucess.. you can add more calories and not stop losing fat or even gain fat, but it has to be done thru 6 meals and the right food in the right amount.. don't fool your self about that fact.. if you eat garbage then yes your gonna not be sucessful, the key is the choices you make and the commitemnt you have to them..
Cardio.. for the most fat loss do your cardio first thing in the morning.. fasted cardio... do it harder than you have been.. intensity for those 40 minutes.. if your not dripping sweat on the floor and heart pounding then your not doing your cardio hard enuff..
After you lean out to a healthy level and your keeping your diet lifestyle change with good discapline, then you can think about a goal of gaining muscle mass..
Don't worry about losing muscle right now man.. trust me it's better to be a skinny guy with not much muscle, than a heavy guy with the health problems that come with that..
 
Yeah, I'm tired of having a ton of muscle only to have people think I'm all fat. I'd rather be thin with a decent physique and build-up later on. I see what you're saying and it makes sense. I'm just going to do whatever I can to keep as much muscle as possible while losing fat moderately over the next few months.

I don't want to go nuts with cardio because I won't maintain that over a long period of time. Plus, I don't want my heart rate going up too high because I personally believe that burns too much muscle. Right or wrong, I can't change that about my way of thinking.

I really don't feel like I'm starving myself. My lifestyle is very different from most other people's. I don't commute to work. I work out of my home office and I'm sitting down all day long. 1200 calories isn't starving myself. I'm not burning much typing all day. I need a lower caloric intake than most men do.

It may not be the greatest plan in the world, but I have a protein shake first thing in the morning. In between, I may have a yogurt. Lunch is usually plain lettuce with either grilled chicken or salmon. Next is a Superfoods shake and I'll have a small snack some time between lunch and dinner. For dinner, I have either chicken or fish with vegetables or lettuce and a few other carbs like possibly potatoes. On training days, I'll have another protein shake before lifting and after lifting. On non-training days, I'll have a protein shake before bed.. I may throw in another protein shake somewhere in between throughout the day..

So far this is working for me and I'm very comfortable with it. When I reach my goal, I'll take a day or two each week to eat some things I really like. In the meantime, I'm really pretty satisfied with my diet. The only thing I'm not crazy about is losing just as much muscle as fat - but I'll take it....
 
Last few comments, and i'm not trying to start a beef with you..
Your not getting it.. 1200 calories IS starving yourself.. yes your losing weight, but the loss will slow down.. but since you sit at a desk and now are starving yourself what your doing is.. slowing your metab down fcukin bigtime, plus setting your self up for a big weight gain rebound when you do eat more calories..
Your only eating four times a day, and one is yogurt and the other a snack with a shake.. whole foods with high protein give you a thermogenic effect that speeds up your metab and burns fat.. shakes don't give you that.. you'd be better off taking your 1200 calories in thru whole foods over 6 small meals (if that's possible?) and losing the shakes.. learning how to exercise and eat to speed up your metab is the key, to keeping yourself lean long term..
Fasted cadio will elevated your metab in the morning, then eat to keep it up all day.. high heart rate will cardio will burn more muscle, your correct.. but I'm saying you can eat the correct way and do high heart rate cardio and lose as much as you are now and make longer term progress without a big rebound.. you will lose more fat and I'm betting less muscle my way than your 1200 caloire way.. plus when you are down to the body fat you want to be, you cut back on cardio and work on putting muscle on.. but since your eating right and have a faster running metab you will not put the fat back on, but you will put muscle on..
With the job you have, you need to use the tricks you can to speed up your metab.. if your sitting all day long you need your body to be digesting small meals all day long.. it keeps your metab going while your sitting at the desk.. add in some morning cardio, or a workout at lunchtime and that speeds up your metab also..
avoid the food late night and try to workout earlier in the day.. your metab gets a after burn effect from the workout, that lasts a few hours.. if you work out and go to bed your metab slows down when you sleep and you loose that after burn effect.. that's why a big meal when you get up is a good thing, it gets your metab going.. if you wait until lunch to eat your metab stays slow to conserve energy.. same with starving yourself, your body SLOWS it's metab down to save energy..
everytime you eat you should think of it as putting fuel in the furnace that burns your metab..
Peace.........
 
Thanks, DLM5. I don't think you're starting anything. What you're saying makes sense. I appreciate your input. Where do you think my daily caloric intake needs to be? I know you can't be precise as everyone is different - but generally. 1600? 2000? I agree with doing cardio in the morning - I really should make the effort to get up early and start my day that way.. I'm just SO not a morning person.. I guess it's a sacrifice I need to make..

Thanks again...
 
Well, I guess I'll post an update... I actually started my diet at about 245lbs at 26.9% body fat and 38.8% lean body mass in January. As of this morning, I'm 181.0 at 17.5% body fat and 28.8% lean body mass. I've lost a lot of fat and a lot of muscle - but I look a whole lot better.. I'm thinking I'll probably need to be around 160lbs to be satisfied enough to do a lean bulk. I can gain weight REALLY easily so I'm not too worried about gaining muscle mass again...

I do cardio first thing every morning for 30 minutes (I'm increasing that to 40 starting Monday morning) and weight train on Monday, Tuesday and Friday. On weight training days, I go to the gym in the afternoon and do an additional 20 minutes of cardio right afterwards. On days where I don't lift, I do an additional 40 minutes of cardio. I also do some MMA and I'm switching that to Muay Thai Kickboxing a few nights a week...

I'm probably getting between 1400 and 1600 calories per day. I consume protein shakes, lettuce, chicken, fish, sushi, greek non-fat yogurt, high fiber granola bars and I do SOME snacking.

I was wearing size 44 pants beforehand - and if I remember correctly, they were tight. Right now I wear 34's and they're lose. I've also been 100% natural since May when I got a false report of a very high PSA and stopped everything. My testosterone is insanely low and I'm seeing an endocrinologist that'll hopefully approve me for TRT very soon...
 
Just a quick update and a before and after picture.. Right now I weigh about 167 at approximately 13% body fat. I've seen the 12s and I've seen close to 160 - but I've been doing a lot of partying lately - and I've put back on about 5 pounds.. I'll get back to it.

In any event, I'm feeling great and will continue to make progress as time goes on. I'm still looking to be around 160 or a bit less at 10% body fat. I do have to say, it's very difficult to lose more fat at this point. I don't want to make any commitments that I cannot keep. I don't want to get into eating a number of calories that I will not be able to maintain for the long-term - and I don't want to get into doing so much cardio that I'm only going to look good while I'm going that extra mile.. I hope over time I continue to progress.. If not, I'm fairly satisfied where I am now.

My only issue is lost muscle. I don't want to do a lean bulk until I reach my goal. Ultimately, I'd like to be at 180lbs at 10% body fat. I feel that's a healthy place to be and I'll be happy with my appearance and success at that point...
 

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Thanks. I have better after pictures that I should have used. That one makes me look very small. I'll post another update eventually...
 
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