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"Tren" Designer Information / Write-Up

deads4life said:
From what i gather from page one of this post is that trenadrol is a pretty aggressive agent to give u gyno...would this assumption be correct?
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YES, YES, YES! At least in my specific case. If it weren't for the gyno that flared up after I went to 90mgs, trenadrol would be one of my favs. I've run SD, PP, HD, Epi, Havoc and nothing (notwithstanding some slight nipple after PCT with ATD) gave me gyno EXCEPT trenadrol.
 
crazilyfter42 said:
So you said this product is banned or just simply discontinued? I am interested in giving it a run and can source it online (overseas). But I don't want to order if it is illegal in the US.
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not banned. still legal. Thus OTHER companies trying to claim they have it now... still have yet to see one thats an accurate clone.

Like Nas said, I know of a few fellows who have imported quite a few of these successfully.
 
poopypants said:
not banned. still legal. Thus OTHER companies trying to claim they have it now... still have yet to see one thats an accurate clone.

Like Nas said, I know of a few fellows who have imported quite a few of these successfully.
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This is good to hear. Can't wait to give it a go than.
 
edwards said:
*update* I've been taking TestraFlex (estra comp.) for nearly two weeks at 50mg. I'm going to bump to 75 on Sun. So far, very little noticeable effects. I got sick a few days ago somthing fierce. Bad sore throat, sniffles, aches. It sucked. I'm resting up and will hit the gym again on Mon. I ordered some of the good shyt from England (the ALRI TRN) and hope to jump on that stuff by the end of next week. If the TestraFlex doesn't kick in by then I'm going to toss the rest of it. Maybe I'm under dosing it. I don't feel "on" at all. Time will tell...
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*update* bumped to 75mgs. some days i go 100mgs. i am feeling it kick in a bit. however, i got a cold which knocked me the fug out for a week. i needed the rest, since i hadn't taken a week off in about 5 months, so I was do. I just wasn't expecting to take a week off during a cycle. anyway, I obviously need to bump it higher since 75 still seems too low for someone sitting at 200lbs. I don't feel like buying another bottle. I've got Methoxy TRN in the mail from england which I'm going to start this week. I'll just "bridge" it from the Estra compound. Goals are a little mass, strength and some recomp. I wish I hadn't got sick. It really fugged up my assessment of the compound. take it for what it's worth.
 
Outside Backer said:
i read many mention p5p to help with prolactin

what is the max dosing u guys are using
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with p5p daily 200mg is probably enough for protective, and if you start to get any signs of issues, you can go as high as 600 with no issues. 600 a day is enough to get lactating women to stop lactating within a week....
 
poopypants said:
not banned. still legal. Thus OTHER companies trying to claim they have it now... still have yet to see one thats an accurate clone.

Like Nas said, I know of a few fellows who have imported quite a few of these successfully.
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yeah ALRI just got the dreaded DSHEA letter from the FDA "excuse me, can you prove to us how your product is compliant with the DSHEA" and had to pull it
 
All things tren, and a very informative thread. I'm about 5 weeks out from starting a cycle, and now I want to throw one of these compounds into the mix. Right now, I'm planning on running epistane stacked with orastan-A. Since these tren compounds are non-methylated, it seems I can get away with adding one of them, I was thinking the Estra-4. This could really bump up my gains. Would any of you advise skipping the Orastan-A if I were to do this and just run the epi/tren combo? Also, it seems that the concensus is that clomid is better pct than nolva because of the progestin (even going so far as to say that nolva might INCREASE the risk of gyno), but nobody has spoken much of toremiphene specifically. This is what I used for PCT after my Halo cycle about 8 months ago, and many people on the boards, including Dr. D, have touted this stuff as the shite. I'm curious to hear about opinions regarding tor used as PCT after a progestin based compound. The other compound I have on hand is novadex-xt. I was planning on running that inverse to the tor, but now from reading the board on this, it might be a bad choice for test booster. Feedback would be great.

As concerns the legality of all of this stuff, you are right in that you can't walk into a store and buy clomid or nolva or tor, but if one were to have some rats or mice and wanted to do some "research" on these "chemicals," it is perfectly legal to buy and posess such "research chemicals" for research purposes. I, for one, have a bottle of tor and clen right in my cupboard, just in case I feel the urge to do some research on my rats (after getting approval from the institutional review board (IRB) of course). My rats tell me that the clen tastes like grape koolaid. I've sometimes wondered if that means it is fake.

Anyway, thoughts on this cycle and its proposed PCT would be great.
 
gerby said:
All things tren, and a very informative thread. I'm about 5 weeks out from starting a cycle, and now I want to throw one of these compounds into the mix. Right now, I'm planning on running epistane stacked with orastan-A. Since these tren compounds are non-methylated, it seems I can get away with adding one of them, I was thinking the Estra-4. This could really bump up my gains. Would any of you advise skipping the Orastan-A if I were to do this and just run the epi/tren combo? Also, it seems that the concensus is that clomid is better pct than nolva because of the progestin (even going so far as to say that nolva might INCREASE the risk of gyno), but nobody has spoken much of toremiphene specifically. This is what I used for PCT after my Halo cycle about 8 months ago, and many people on the boards, including Dr. D, have touted this stuff as the shite. I'm curious to hear about opinions regarding tor used as PCT after a progestin based compound. The other compound I have on hand is novadex-xt. I was planning on running that inverse to the tor, but now from reading the board on this, it might be a bad choice for test booster. Feedback would be great.

As concerns the legality of all of this stuff, you are right in that you can't walk into a store and buy clomid or nolva or tor, but if one were to have some rats or mice and wanted to do some "research" on these "chemicals," it is perfectly legal to buy and posess such "research chemicals" for research purposes. I, for one, have a bottle of tor and clen right in my cupboard, just in case I feel the urge to do some research on my rats (after getting approval from the institutional review board (IRB) of course). My rats tell me that the clen tastes like grape koolaid. I've sometimes wondered if that means it is fake.

Anyway, thoughts on this cycle and its proposed PCT would be great.
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its nice to think that just cause something isnt methylated that you can go ahead and just stack away.... well ya can, and sometimes will do so with some success and avoid compound damage.... but just cause they arent methylated doesnt mean they dont stress your liver at all or other body parts, and sometimes a combination of these compounds or the metabolites they create as they are broken down can have a more negative reaction then just one or the other at a high dose....


All that aside Im going to tell you why you REALLY dont want to do a stack like this...... synergy. There is none in a stack like this. They are all similar acting compounds. All very dry and all interact directly and strongly with the Androgen receptor. This means your stacking compounds that are actually competing with each other to exert their effects. This is another reason why your better off just taking ONE of these compounds and dosing it at a higher dose so that one compound can do its business to the best possible degree and not have to worry if your actually LOWERING the efficacy of each of these compounds, not getting any one of them to do the best work they possibly can.

Your much better off stacking one of these with another "WET" compound or one thats predominantly a mass builder.... sadly most of these out right now ARE methylated BUT all the ones that are dry, with exception of Epi, are basically not methylated, and even Epi isnt very toxic at that (I ran dbol@30, Epi @60 for 6 weeks and liver values were fine 2 weeks after PCT when I drew blood). But by stacking one of these with say, M14ADD(dbol prohormone), Phera Plex, 13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17-one(MAX-LMG or Revolt or any clone, there's tons) and even Superdrol you will see MUCH better effects. In fact you typically get the best of both worlds!

Ive run two similar stacks, Epi and Dbol as well as Prostan (orastan a) and Phera Plex. Both I BLEW up on had INSANE strength gains and still stayed hard as a rock. No bloating, no super bad androgen sides, mostly all benefits. This is why stacking Test and Tren is so loved and been a favorite by many for YEARS, same idea.

Any way... dosing maybe Epi and orastan would be a nice dry cycle but adding in a third compound of similar action will likely start to be overkill and just lower the overall effects of the stack. Better to keep it simple and go big or to do it smart and stack with a wet one and get the best of both worlds, I promise you it will be a far better cycle then you can achieve with what you already proposed.

Well good luck with your choice, and if your REALLY dying to add one of these tren compounds Id go with Estra-4 as it can be slightly wet with some people and at higher doses (100-120mg), but Mtrn def isnt...... in fact a TRN Phera cycle is what I have planned for my next go around early spring.
 
I was thinking about the synergy issue, which is why I posted on the board to see what others would think. A few others have done the epi/tren combo and it seems that they are getting great results, and that sounds like a more potent stack than epi/orastan-A. I've read that the orastan-A is great for increasing receptor sites, and so I thought it could make a good addition to the epi/tren combo, but if the compounds are going to compete, I'll save the tren for another cycle and stack it with superdrol. Then I don't have to worry about spending more on another compound right now. What do you think about toremiphene and novadex-XT PCT for a tren cycle though? Never to early to start thinking about my third cycle.

I know that there is much more to the toxicity of a compound than just being methylated, which is why I always get opinions from people before I ingest anything. I assume that any of these compounds has the potential to harm my liver, that's why I'm not going around popping stuff without getting the opinions of more experienced people from places like AM. Thanks for your input.
 
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gerby said:
I was thinking about the synergy issue, which is why I posted on the board to see what others would think. A few others have done the epi/tren combo and it seems that they are getting great results, and that sounds like a more potent stack than epi/orastan-A. I've read that the orastan-A is great for increasing receptor sites, and so I thought it could make a good addition to the epi/tren combo, but if the compounds are going to compete, I'll save the tren for another cycle and stack it with superdrol. Then I don't have to worry about spending more on another compound right now. What do you think about toremiphene and novadex-XT PCT for a tren cycle though? Never to early to start thinking about my third cycle.
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Epi/tren made me stronger than an ox and leaner too. Unfortunately the trenadrol sides are way to harsh for my physiology.
 
Interesting article about 19-Nors:
Invalid Link Removed

Prohormone 19NorDiol is an estrogen

That’s great. For years supplements manufacturers sold products like 19NorDiol, a prohormone that converts into nandrolone. If Bush hadn’t banned the first generation of prohormones in 2004, the stuff would still be on the market now.

Well.

Searching the web for information on new remedies for osteoporosis – we all have to make a living after all – what do we come across?

An article on the active ingredient in 19NorDiol: 4-estrene-3beta,17beta-diol and its twin 4-estrene-3alpha,17beta-diol. The prohormone you can buy online is always a mixture of these two, whether you get old-fashioned stuff in capsules or in the hip cypionate form. In the body the enzymes 3beta-HSD and 3alpha-HSD convert the prohormones into nandrolone. See below.

Invalid Link Removed

Nothing new here.

But what do we read in the article on osteoporosis? That researchers have discovered that 19NorDiol mostly behaves as an androgen.

Watch out for the word ‘mostly’, my friends. An earlier publication [Mol Pharmacol. 2003 Dec;64(6):1428-33.] indicated that the prohormone also attaches itself easily to the estradiol receptor even though the gurus all swore that 19NorDiol does not have an estrogenic effect.

The table below shows how well the different estrens, 4-estrene-3alpha,17beta-diol ad 4-estrene-3beta,17beta-diol, interact with various steroid receptors. Note also the interaction with the progesterone receptor.



The figure below is also interesting. It shows the effect of a series of hormones – including the estrens – on the uterus in test animals. The effect is reduced by half if the test animals are also given an anti-estrogen (AE). An anti-androgen (AA) inhibits even more, but still – the message is clear.



The precursor-industry fed consumers a hormone that was not only androgenic, but also an active estrogen. Now you know where your gyno came from.

Sources:
J Clin Invest. 2006 Sep;116(9):2500-9. (Invalid Link Removed)
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Invalid Link Removed
 
njsfinest said:
so if i wanted to take cyclo tren for 3 weeks what is the best recommendation pct wise?
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3 weeks?

Honestly, I would say OTC PCT would be fine. I would dose the Cyclo 90mg also.

Some may argue on the OTC PCT.

Diesel products, PCS/Stoked by AI, Activate, Nothing too extreme, honestly. 3 weeks is a short run for that compound.

Do some searches on it.
 
bump for this fcked up compound. I dont know if anyone has used propadrol or not, but I'd say it compares with trenaplax in term of cutting bf and strength from personal experience.
 
GotTest said:
Run it 90mg/day stacked with 40mg/day of Epi and tell me what YOU think.
:bb3:
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Already did that 2 years ago, actually it was my first cycle propadrol+Epidrol, my best cycle to date. I have been thinking about running prop at 120mg and Halo at 75 for 6 weeks since there is a deal going on at bb.
 
17b-Methoxy-Trienbolone (Trenadrol)

This compound has a high affinity for binding to the progesterone receptors due to the methoxy configuration at the 17 beta position, and a low affinity for binding to androgen receptors.

Will this compound act as a progestin if it binds to the progesterone receptor? For example: ATD can bind to androgen receptors, but this doesn't mean it produces androgenic effects... In fact, ATD can act as an anti-androgen.
 
Companies selling pro hormones / pro steroids without giving the pct or advices for correct Pct are bad.

Each stores selling their brand products must know what to do in case something goes wrong for the customer, it starts by giving assurance to the customers and all the help necessary.

Thumbs up to:

Anabolic Xtreme
Primordial performance

These are two examples of very good company giving all the advices needed to help their customers having the best results out and in their cycles.
 
Since epi and tren are supposed to be similar would it be bad to use nolva for just epi? i was gonna stack epistane with tren but i'm leaning away from using tren cuz it sounds fairly dangerous. Thanks
 
if it hasn't been mentioned yet, the current version of "finigenx magnum" does not contain any "tren".
 
In what reponse I saw someone mention a cypionate version of one of the nor compounds. Who is making a cypionate version? Is it a sterile pain free oral soluton?? That always gets my attention.
 
jcam222 said:
In what reponse I saw someone mention a cypionate version of one of the nor compounds. Who is making a cypionate version? Is it a sterile pain free oral soluton?? That always gets my attention.
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VPX used to.
 
GotTest said:
My boss would have my nuts :run:
He's "OK" if I test my own stuff, but that was a "borderline" decision on his part.

As far as the Tren products go...I've only tested the Trenadrol or Troid. If the Tren product your using does NOT get you stronger...probably ain't tren.

I'm not at liberty to tell you the bogus Tren products I've tested. I promised a rep if my refund was handled professionally I would not go public. Man of my word! :D

Side note...Handle all product complaints with reps through PM. If you get no where...then bring it public.
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I certainly hope this "rep" has come clean to the rest of the board and the public. I can understand your position but honestly if there is bunk stuff being sold everyone should know even if its a mistake. If however it were a mistake likely the company would have posted as such by now?
 
I think that in the above situation, I would have promised the rep to not go public, take my refund, and then go public anyway. I remember reading a forum where a product rep recalled a coversation with a friend of his who owned his own supplement company. He had asked his friend how he had managed to keep the prices of his protein powders down even though raw materials have been skyrocketing. Increased costs were costing the rep real money. His friend replied that they simply diluted the protein with maltodextrin. He only said that it was a "major" supplement company, but wouldn't rat out his friend. I wonder if that protein is the stuff that I buy. I don't have access to a lab or any crap like that, but if I can ever launch my dream of owning my own supplement company, part of my "reseach and development" would center around sending off samples to independent labs and then publishing the results. Supplements aren't regulated at all unless they start killing people, and so there is absolutely no accountability. When people refuse to come public with verifiable and undeniable proof the a product is bunk, the problem is only exacerbated. He lied to you and stole your money. The fact that he gave it back after you called him on it doesn't make him honest, and he essentially bought your silence with that refund. Hell, how much did the crap cost? I'll send you a check, you can give that a$$hole back his money and let all of us know what's fake and what's not.
 
Yeah, I tottally agree with that, if a company is selling crap, I want to know about it so I dont buy any of their products. On the other hand, how can we be sure that this guy is telling the truth himself and not just trying to stir up some crap? Anyone with a computer can post here. I think this guy should come clean, tell us the company or be banned.
 
Well he says he only tested two tren products Trenadrol and troid, but he cant say which tren products he tested is bogus, so pretty easy not to buy either of these.
 
Lets be clear on this, what did the "bogus" product actually contain? Nothing or something? If it contained a 19 then that is still "something". There was a call some time ago to self police purity and label claims, alot of people here got PM's regarding this.
 
how can we be sure that this guy is telling the truth himself and not just trying to stir up some crap? Anyone with a computer can post here. I think this guy should come clean, tell us the company or be banned.
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Wow, I see I've missed some flaming. :nervous:
To answer a few quetions...

Why I won't go public?
I keep my promises. I keep ALL problems with supplements, delivery, pill count, etc between PM's with Reps and companies. I don't get on Boards and start "bad mouthing" a company or product unless I am completely ignored...which RARELY happens.
Most companies are quick to give refunds and rectify problems...NP is one of those QUALITY companies.:biggthumpup:

I actually don't see any mention of the "bogus" Tren I tested even on this board. You can also rest assure that NP does NOT carry this product either.

Believe me there are other PH's, AIs, Research Chems out there that are pure $hit. You guys have no idea how F'ed up this industry is.

What was the Tren product?
It was 1,4-AD and ATD mixture. Nice combo huh. Can you say..."I have NO LIBIDO!":sleeping:

Who is this guy?
I am an analytical chemist in pharm chemistry with 12 yrs experience...and big enough to kick your a$$. :D
 
Okay, thats your personal policy and I see why. I didnt mean to flame you if thats what you thought. I just dont want to take any crap and neither do most guys. Thanks for explaining it and mentioning what it was and where it isnt.
 
Knowbull said:
Okay, thats your personal policy and I see why. I didnt mean to flame you if thats what you thought. I just dont want to take any crap and neither do most guys. Thanks for explaining it and mentioning what it was and where it isnt.
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No worries brother. :)
 
GotTest said:
Wow, I see I've missed some flaming. :nervous:
To answer a few quetions...

Why I won't go public?
I keep my promises. I keep ALL problems with supplements, delivery, pill count, etc between PM's with Reps and companies. I don't get on Boards and start "bad mouthing" a company or product unless I am completely ignored...which RARELY happens.
Most companies are quick to give refunds and rectify problems...NP is one of those QUALITY companies.:biggthumpup:

I actually don't see any mention of the "bogus" Tren I tested even on this board. You can also rest assure that NP does NOT carry this product either.

Believe me there are other PH's, AIs, Research Chems out there that are pure $hit. You guys have no idea how F'ed up this industry is.

What was the Tren product?
It was 1,4-AD and ATD mixture. Nice combo huh. Can you say..."I have NO LIBIDO!":sleeping:

Who is this guy?
I am an analytical chemist in pharm chemistry with 12 yrs experience...and big enough to kick your a$$. :D
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I don't intend to flame anybody, but I have a few problems with the above post. First, there is a big difference between a bottle containing too few pills and a bottle not containing the substance indicated. If I buy some protein and it says it's a five pound tub and I weigh it and it's only 4 pounds, I can see how that might be an honest mistake. I'll return it for a refund or get a credit or something. But if I do a chemical analysis and find out that half the powder is maltodextrin, that's no honest mistake. Rather, that is a company trying to rip me off plain as day by putting a cheap filler in place of what they say is in the package. Now, I suppose that it could be a supplier trying to rip off the company, but even then I wouldn't be buying stuff from a company that didn't even know what was in their own products. Consumers informing other consumers is the only accountability available in the supplement industry. If we on this board won't let the others know when we know for a fact that a product is bunk, well, that's really pathetic and everybody knows it. You talk about being a "man of your word," but I'm willing to sacrifice a few bucks in a refund to save others from wasting their money and perhaps help the free market work to correct unscrupulous business by forcing them honest or forcing them into bankruptcy. I don't mean to be a prick, and I'm not about to come rip on a company because they shorted me some pills, but if they dilute my protein with maltodextrin I'll find as many people as I can who purchased that crap so I can file a class action law suit on their a$$. So, you can go on being a "man of your word," but I want everybody on this board to know that if I ever do a chemical analysis on a product and find out it's fake or clearly isn't what's indicated on the packaging, I will do what's right and let everybody know. And I most certainly am a man of my word.
 
gerby said:
I don't intend to flame anybody, but I have a few problems with the above post. First, there is a big difference between a bottle containing too few pills and a bottle not containing the substance indicated. If I buy some protein and it says it's a five pound tub and I weigh it and it's only 4 pounds, I can see how that might be an honest mistake. I'll return it for a refund or get a credit or something. But if I do a chemical analysis and find out that half the powder is maltodextrin, that's no honest mistake. Rather, that is a company trying to rip me off plain as day by putting a cheap filler in place of what they say is in the package. Now, I suppose that it could be a supplier trying to rip off the company, but even then I wouldn't be buying stuff from a company that didn't even know what was in their own products.
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Then probably you shouldn't be buying stuff from about 95% of the companies that are here on nutraplanet, as most of them use contract manufacturing and most aren't cGMP certified. Some never see their own finished product....
 
And if you had an experience by which you purchased one of these products and found through indisputable scientific evidence that the product was fake or diluted, I would expect you to be nice enough to let me know. That's the point. Yeah, they all could be fake or garbage, but I haven't seen proof that this is the case 95% of the time. This thread is about tren, and one of the members here said that he purchased a product that did not contain the chemical indicated, but its a secret between him and the board sponsor. I don't get that. If a company is manufacturing fake tren or not doing due diligence in quality control, anybody with such knowledge who refuses upon request to share such information is equally culpable. He was under no obligation to "promise not to tell anybody." Think about it. He called a company and said, "hey, you guys sold me a fake product." And they said, "yeah, but you can only have a refund if you promise not to tell anybody." No no no. He gets a refund because the product was fake. Why the hell should he have to negotiate. We're all rolling the dice when we buy stuff in an unregulated market. But we'd be doing less of that if people would come clean about their experiences.
 
EasyEJL said:
Then probably you shouldn't be buying stuff from about 95% of the companies that are here on nutraplanet, as most of them use contract manufacturing and most aren't cGMP certified. Some never see their own finished product....
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Excellent point Easy...repped :)
 
Very, very good point. It's almost kinda scary in some cases. I found it amusing when IDS was confronted about having steroids in their products. Mass Tabs rocked, loved bulk/ripped tabs run for a cut that was good but could've been made better if I made it lean mass. It seems with all the products out there and all the clones, it really normally only comes down to a handful of companies when people say what works and what doesn't. Personally, I would've taken my money back and STILL put out the good word on them. It's not about necessarily keeping YOUR word. He couldn't even keep his. F@cker
 
Its a crap shoot, its not like the original days when there was only one or two companies putting out designers, if there was bunk people shared that information quickly and product was not sold, if it was good it disappeared quickly. I understand why the guy would be reluctant to come forward, but in a sense, he already has. The bottom line is; "Buyer beware" and that includes those companies buying raws.
 
ryane87 said:
Very, very good point. It's almost kinda scary in some cases. I found it amusing when IDS was confronted about having steroids in their products. Mass Tabs rocked, loved bulk/ripped tabs run for a cut that was good but could've been made better if I made it lean mass. It seems with all the products out there and all the clones, it really normally only comes down to a handful of companies when people say what works and what doesn't. Personally, I would've taken my money back and STILL put out the good word on them. It's not about necessarily keeping YOUR word. He couldn't even keep his. F@cker
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Yeah, but with mass tabs it was purposeful :). You just don't know what is in a bottle of xyz multivitamins unless the company is cGMP certified. that means they have manufacturer COAs on raws, have raws retested when they receive, and then do an additional series of tests on random samples from each finished product batch... You could decide to make your own vitamin capsules today, order the appropriate quantities of raw materials from china from a manufacturer who doesn't provide COAs, never test the raws yourself, never test the finished product and still legally sell it....

So when people complain that the FDA just goes around banning things and doesn't protect people keep in mind this is the way in the end we as a people want it as our voted officials have set it up that way....
 
If you purchase from reputable retailers you are probably safe. Some companies are aware of these "flaws" and cover their customers asses. This is one of the factors that keep them in business by making a profit. The ones that dont go belly up.
 
Oh I understand this. It's amazing how knowing the right people can all of a sudden make you a supplement company. Very few companies constantly come up and those are the ones I generally purchase from. If everyone else is, then I think it's generally "safe" for me to as well. Don't even get me started on the government. You never, ever see a poor or middle class person running for President. For the most part I understand the case can be made when it comes to education and eliminating a poor person from contention. What if they were just common sense smart, though? Common sense would be a better way of running a government versus using your education to make it confusing for the majority of the people you are supposed to be "serving". Most middle class have to be somewhat educated for the most part. Yet if a middle class person was in office then the middle class could possibly rise even more. Hence the almost complete deterioration of the middle class. Rich people gotta keep them down haha. Only slightly kidding. I trust the government as far as I can throw. Obama is another puppet.
 
EasyEJL said:
Yeah, but with mass tabs it was purposeful :). You just don't know what is in a bottle of xyz multivitamins unless the company is cGMP certified. that means they have manufacturer COAs on raws, have raws retested when they receive, and then do an additional series of tests on random samples from each finished product batch... You could decide to make your own vitamin capsules today, order the appropriate quantities of raw materials from china from a manufacturer who doesn't provide COAs, never test the raws yourself, never test the finished product and still legally sell it....

So when people complain that the FDA just goes around banning things and doesn't protect people keep in mind this is the way in the end we as a people want it as our voted officials have set it up that way....
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This was the EXACT problem with the company I spoke with regarding their "Tren"
They had COA's sent from manufacturer of raws, but never had them retested after pills were manufactured and bottled.

China has a BAD reputation of sending quality samples but switching once order is placed.
 
rurouni125 said:
Since epi and tren are supposed to be similar would it be bad to use nolva for just epi? i was gonna stack epistane with tren but i'm leaning away from using tren cuz it sounds fairly dangerous. Thanks
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not antyhing like epi...if its ur first cycle stick to epi alone
 
trenadrol banned :(

whats the best tren that people have used up to this point w/ solid recovery and gains

i am just finishing 1-t tren really liked it
 
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