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How to "pulse" orals

Dr D.

Great info you have on here. I have about 8lbs of fat to rid before I start either a Pulse with Dbol or try a more 'traditional' cycle (albeit probably a mild one). I know a guy that documented for a year, his results from doing Dbol for 14 days then 14 days off. It was changed to 14 on 21 off as it was an experiment. He also tried from as little as 5mg up to 20mg but averaged 10mg for most of the cycles. He put on about 14 to 16 lbs over the year, (he also had a 2 or 3 month break in that year when he could not train much)

Now, the reason I am telling you this, is because even though his results are there for the world to see, lots of people on the forum argued that this is a BAD way to cycle. I also recently put the question of pulsing to Dave Palumbo, here are his answers...
#
Unstable blood levels of these hormones will only serve to make you feel "strange"...... If you're gonna take them, do it right! Don't play games with these drugs......... they're useless when taken erratically.

are these people using this method kidding themselves? I think it's akin to steroidal masturbation....... you're teasing yourself with the "REAL THING" but you're leaving dissatisfied.

Now, I know at least one guy, and there seem to be many on here that like pulsing, so why do some people think it not just, 'Not the best way to do it' but they actually say it bad.

And although I doubt he has used this method in person, Dave Palumbo is a very well respected man, why do you think he is so against this method?

I am just very curious, as I say I may start a Dbol pulse in a month or so.

Thanks for any input
 
Well, look at it this way, take your average designer that has a 6 hour halflife. You dose it at 6am, 12pm, 6pm. How steady is that dosing? Overnight your body goes 12 hours without it causing the exact same thing. Or take things with even shorter halflife like dbol or 1-t, 3-4 hours. You get that non-steady state either way, its just more pronounced on a pulse.
 
EasyEJL said:
Well, look at it this way, take your average designer that has a 6 hour halflife. You dose it at 6am, 12pm, 6pm. How steady is that dosing? Overnight your body goes 12 hours without it causing the exact same thing. Or take things with even shorter halflife like dbol or 1-t, 3-4 hours. You get that non-steady state either way, its just more pronounced on a pulse.
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Hey,

Well He is not a fan of orals at all really. I can understand that this protocol does not give 'optimal' results, most gains in least time etc but I thought he may have said it can work but not as good as a good test cycle or something along those lines. But he states that it will make you feel bad. Just wondered what Dr D thought of Daves opinions.

It seems opinions differ massively. Even Patric Arnold will say Orals can and do work.......dave hates them....
 
Once again, people can discount it all they want. Go read my recent thread that has a link to corticosteroid pulse therapy in children. You can't ignore the facts. Proven and scientific.
 
trend747 said:
Once again, people can discount it all they want. Go read my recent thread that has a link to corticosteroid pulse therapy in children. You can't ignore the facts. Proven and scientific.
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I have not read it , i'll take a look :-)

Still, I'd like to hear Dr D's opinion on the post I put, just out of interest
 
London28 said:
Dr D.

...He put on about 14 to 16 lbs over the year, (he also had a 2 or 3 month break in that year when he could not train much)

...And although I doubt he has used this method in person, Dave Palumbo is a very well respected man, why do you think he is so against this method? ...

Thanks for any input
Click to expand...

If you are David Palumbo, you wouldn't like pulsing! Of course he is not keen on this method, it would not allow him maximum results and he'd end up loosing size no doubt. In general, guys like Dave take several grams of testosterone esters every week for many years on end, just to maintain their weight much less make gains.

Pulsing is not for serious, competitive athletes. It is for men who are satisfied to make smaller gains because all they seek is strength and optimal health. It's not about how it makes you look or feel, it's about a positive metabolic state for minimal body burden.

Guys like Dave can end up with serious problems after 6-10 years. It's hard to have kids after than, you need to get hair transplants, your PSA looks pre-carcinogenic, you can't get it up anymore, your cardiovascular system is often damaged, plus your kidneys and liver are usually prematurely aged as well. Some guys need to be that big and it's worth the risk to them. I respect that completely! I am not willing to go that far however. I might wanna have more kids one day and I enjoy my sex life way too much! :) I will settle for not being "huge" to still be big enough and stay strong. For some men, that's good enough and that's who this method is for.

In my experience, a wise man avoids ALL extremes, and pulsing is a reasonable balance that doesn't violate either side of the coin.
 
DR.D said:
If you are David Palumbo, you wouldn't like pulsing! Of course he is not keen on this method, it would not allow him maximum results and he'd end up loosing size no doubt. In general, guys like Dave take several grams of testosterone esters every week for many years on end, just to maintain their weight much less make gains.

Pulsing is not for serious, competitive athletes. It is for men who are satisfied to make smaller gains because all they seek is strength and optimal health. It's not about how it makes you look or feel, it's about a positive metabolic state for minimal body burden.

Guys like Dave can end up with serious problems after 6-10 years. It's hard to have kids after than, you need to get hair transplants, your PSA looks pre-carcinogenic, you can't get it up anymore, your cardiovascular system is often damaged, plus your kidneys and liver are usually prematurely aged as well. Some guys need to be that big and it's worth the risk to them. I respect that completely! I am not willing to go that far however. I might wanna have more kids one day and I enjoy my sex life way too much! :) I will settle for not being "huge" to still be big enough and stay strong. For some men, that's good enough and that's who this method is for.

In my experience, a wise man avoids ALL extremes, and pulsing is a reasonable balance that doesn't violate either side of the coin.
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BINGO, well said. I love pulsing.
 
Thank you for taking time to reply. I understand thata pulsing would not give 'optimal' results, just wondered what you thought baout his comment that it leaves your feelign weird and messes with your head.

I am in two minds what to try first. I have lots of Tbol and Dobl.

I will either try a more traditional cycle with the Tbol, maybe
not so high a dose and for 4 to 6 weeks, OR, i will try pulsing with the Dbol, OR used the Dbol at a small dose 10mg per day, upon waking for something like 14 days on 21 off.

I know a guy that tried the last method and over a year (althogh he had a few months without any dbol) he gained and kept abotu 12lbsof muscle. He did not change his diet or trianing and dcould not train for some of the time, and he kept the weight.

he had no bad sides and made steady keepale gains at the age of 41 and people STILL slammed him on the forum. he looged the whole thing. Some one recently done a 10mg per day 6 week cycle and addd 12 or 14 lbs with no sides and all people said was "why not take a proper dose or do it properly and injet"

why do you think Pulsing and smal dosed cycles get flammed?

So Dr D, what would you recomend to try first out of the above experiments i suggested?

And have you used the morning Dbol type cycle before? decent results?
 
London28 said:
why do you think Pulsing and smal dosed cycles get flammed?
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Why did people think the earth was flat? I agree that a longer ester test cycle is better than any of the orals, thats kind of hard to argue. But unless you are popping the dbols every 3 hours (so 40mg a day, waking up during the nite) you are going to get ups and downs as well. Most of the people who do the flaming are also people who haven't tried it.

London28 said:
And have you used the morning Dbol type cycle before? decent results?
Click to expand...

The morning dbol is what Arnold used......
 
EasyEJL said:
The morning dbol is what Arnold used......
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is that a fact? and what kind of dose and length? the guy i know that done it was on for no more than 16 days, mostly just 14.

i tried it with Tbol, 14 on 14 off and the second cycle i felt pretty crap. I had other reason why i stopped but it wasnt going too good when i did. maybe morning tbol isnt so good.
 
with tbol mornings are ok (split in 2 is better), but you are better off straight cycle for 6 weeks than messing with on + off.

There was a quote at one point of arnold talking about how he and whoever his training partner were "sprinkled dbols over their wheaties" every morning.

Schwarzenegger has admitted to using performance-enhancing anabolic steroids while they were legal, writing in 1967 that "steroids were helpful to me in maintaining muscle size while on a strict diet in preparation for a contest. I did not use them for muscle growth, but rather for muscle maintenance when cutting up." He has called the drugs "tissue building."
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I don't know why people buy into theories one way or the other with such religious fervitude. There are no definites and theories are meant to be modiied and even abandoned. My personal though is that you could achieve better results with a much more stabe plasma level by using half the dose used for pulsing on a daily basis (i.e. pulse 50 mg every other day -- instead use 25 mg every day). But of course even this depends on the half life of the oral in question. This is really the same question with regard to dosing enanthate twice per week or once per week. There are too many chiseled in stone "rules" that people parrot on these boards.
 
London28 said:
Thank you for taking time to reply. I understand thata pulsing would not give 'optimal' results, just wondered what you thought baout his comment that it leaves your feelign weird and messes with your head.

...why do you think Pulsing and smal dosed cycles get flammed?

So Dr D, what would you recomend to try first out of the above experiments i suggested?

And have you used the morning Dbol type cycle before? decent results?
Click to expand...

It may make you feel weird. These things are very individualized. Different people experience different mental effects, but pulsing technique is not associated with unusually high amounts of "weird feelings" per say, probably just the opposite. For Dave, not feeling "ON" all the time probably would feel weird, so I think I can understand his comments from that perspective.

I think only people that have never tried it flame. Next time you see somebody making these comments, ask them if they've ever actually tried it. The majority that do try it decide they like it, and for a minority it simply doesn't work, but I have never seen anybody try it and then totally flame it afterward.

You must experiment for yourself. I would say the T may be better suited theoretically, but I know the D works too, so either way you are gathering data and learning what works for you. I'm not sure where you live or what is available in your area, but I suggest you seek a medical doctor for these items if they're not commercially available OCT supps.

No, never, but I have with the methodology I described in the primary post (pre and post w/o only). I have seen morning D used at low doses in bridging protocols, but with all the good anti-cortisols out there I feel there is no need to bridge with strong androgens any longer. However, I am not surprised with the results you said he experienced. That sounds very realistic to me that he might gain ~15 lasting pounds over a year with that strategy.
 
sethroberts said:
I don't know why people buy into theories one way or the other with such religious fervitude. There are no definites and theories are meant to be modiied and even abandoned. My personal though is that you could achieve better results with a much more stabe plasma level by using half the dose used for pulsing on a daily basis (i.e. pulse 50 mg every other day -- instead use 25 mg every day). But of course even this depends on the half life of the oral in question. This is really the same question with regard to dosing enanthate twice per week or once per week. There are too many chiseled in stone "rules" that people parrot on these boards.
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I think you are missing the whole point of it. It is for slower gains that will be less stressful on your body and to also prevent shutdown to a high dergree. Trust me it works. I have used it before and it is a great method imo. Don't knock it till you have tried.
 
hman85 said:
I think you are missing the whole point of it. It is for slower gains that will be less stressful on your body and to also prevent shutdown to a high dergree. Trust me it works. I have used it before and it is a great method imo. Don't knock it till you have tried.
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I think you missed the point of my point. My point was that there are no hard and fast rules and people should be open minded. The OPINION that I stated is just that, an opinion. I disagree with you that you can prevent shutdown with pulsing but the degree of shutdown may be minimized -- it is largely going to depend on the dose and the half-life of the drug in question.
 
Thanks for replys

by the way I am in London in the UK.

I think ill use the Tbol at some point in a 'traditional' type cycle spereading out the dose over the day, just a 4 or maybe 5 weeker.

I have Tamoxifen incase I need it which I doubt i will as i will only use a modest dose of this reasonably mild drug, but what could I use to help get natural test levels up and runing after the cycle if I don't want to use clomid?

If I have to use it, I will use it with as small a dose as possible, but as Tbol is a fairly mild drug I don't really want to then take a very toxic AI, that can give pretty serious sides itself, if I can avoid it.

Any suggestions for an OTC supp that will help?

I will use the Dbol I have to pulse, and I will also try low dose (10mg) morning dbol but not sure what protocol i'll try first. I'll log it and write it up on here after, if any one is interested..
 
London28 said:
Thanks for replys

by the way I am in London in the UK.

I think ill use the Tbol at some point in a 'traditional' type cycle spereading out the dose over the day, just a 4 or maybe 5 weeker.

I have Tamoxifen incase I need it which I doubt i will as i will only use a modest dose of this reasonably mild drug, but what could I use to help get natural test levels up and runing after the cycle if I don't want to use clomid?

If I have to use it, I will use it with as small a dose as possible, but as Tbol is a fairly mild drug I don't really want to then take a very toxic AI, that can give pretty serious sides itself, if I can avoid it.

Any suggestions for an OTC supp that will help?

I will use the Dbol I have to pulse, and I will also try low dose (10mg) morning dbol but not sure what protocol i'll try first. I'll log it and write it up on here after, if any one is interested..
Click to expand...
Yes, please post it up even if its just a summary of the effects on workouts and muscle growth, sides etc.
 
Sorry,l you wanted PCT suggestions. Try the TRS from PP; if you can afford to, run the TRS with your cycle using the T8 and Endo amp one scoop each dly and using the Sustain alpha 2 days on, 2 days off, after the 20th day. That would be interesting, what say old chap?
 
DR.D said:
If you are David Palumbo, you wouldn't like pulsing! Of course he is not keen on this method, it would not allow him maximum results and he'd end up loosing size no doubt. In general, guys like Dave take several grams of testosterone esters every week for many years on end, just to maintain their weight much less make gains.

Pulsing is not for serious, competitive athletes. It is for men who are satisfied to make smaller gains because all they seek is strength and optimal health. It's not about how it makes you look or feel, it's about a positive metabolic state for minimal body burden.

Guys like Dave can end up with serious problems after 6-10 years. It's hard to have kids after than, you need to get hair transplants, your PSA looks pre-carcinogenic, you can't get it up anymore, your cardiovascular system is often damaged, plus your kidneys and liver are usually prematurely aged as well. Some guys need to be that big and it's worth the risk to them. I respect that completely! I am not willing to go that far however. I might wanna have more kids one day and I enjoy my sex life way too much! :) I will settle for not being "huge" to still be big enough and stay strong. For some men, that's good enough and that's who this method is for.

In my experience, a wise man avoids ALL extremes, and pulsing is a reasonable balance that doesn't violate either side of the coin.
Click to expand...

Very well put Dr D!
:head:
 
sethroberts said:
I think you missed the point of my point. My point was that there are no hard and fast rules and people should be open minded. The OPINION that I stated is just that, an opinion. I disagree with you that you can prevent shutdown with pulsing but the degree of shutdown may be minimized -- it is largely going to depend on the dose and the half-life of the drug in question.
Click to expand...
While the shutdown can't be completely stopped, it can be very low. I used supedrol in a pulse for 6 weeks and I used a test booster for 2 weeks for my pct and that was more than enough. I could have used nothing imo.
 
hman85 said:
While the shutdown can't be completely stopped, it can be very low. I used supedrol in a pulse for 6 weeks and I used a test booster for 2 weeks for my pct and that was more than enough. I could have used nothing imo.
Click to expand...

It is possible. Do you have tests to back up your claim or are you going by feel? This is not meant to break your balls just to emphasize that HPA suppression can not necessarily be felt and it would be interesting to see blood test results comparing a pulse to a steady dose.
 
sethroberts said:
It is possible. Do you have tests to back up your claim or are you going by feel? This is not meant to break your balls just to emphasize that HPA suppression can not necessarily be felt and it would be interesting to see blood test results comparing a pulse to a steady dose.
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I had bloodwork done about a month after i finished the testbooster. Everything came back in full swing.
 
Has anyone pulsed Dbol and tried taking the whole dose in the morning even if training in at around 7pm? or tried taking part of the dose or first thing upon waking and part pre work out?

I though maybe taking first thing in the Am only on training days would lessen the effects on natural test levels? Would it lessen the effect and the point of pulsing?
 
i dunno, this is just me, but if you worked out at 7pm, i'd consider taking the dbol in the mornings the day after workout, rather than preworkout. Thats just me though, I have a slightly different feeling about post workout recovery window and maximal growth times than a lot of people.
 
EasyEJL said:
i dunno, this is just me, but if you worked out at 7pm, i'd consider taking the dbol in the mornings the day after workout, rather than preworkout. Thats just me though, I have a slightly different feeling about post workout recovery window and maximal growth times than a lot of people.
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I train after 7pm on a 3 day split. What u said appeals to me, I think I feel the same way about post work out recover.

On a 4 day split. Dosing on ur 3 off days, early in the morning.

Example,

Training: Mon-Wed-Fri-Sat
Dosing first thing in the AM: Tues-Thurs-Sat


Day 1 - Train
Day 2 - Dose first thing in the AM
Day 3 - Train
Day 4 - Dose first thing in the AM
Day 5 - Train
Day 6 - Dose first thing in the AM
Day 7 - Train

or

Example,

Training: M-W-F
Dosing early in the AM: T-T-S

im guna try this it out :)
 
hman85 said:
I had bloodwork done about a month after i finished the testbooster. Everything came back in full swing.
Click to expand...

Not really what I would consider to be adequate blood work to say for certain what was going on but if it works for you then who am I to argue.
 
hman85 said:
How so?
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Ideally you would have blood work done before, at the end of the cycle and then at the end of PCT if you really wanted to know where you were before, what the cycle did to your values and what the PCT did to your values -- I might even argue for a follow up to make sure that the post-PCT blook work wasn't unduly influenced by the PCT. We can piece this kind of data together from the scientific literature for some AAS use but there really isn't anything that we can piece together for pulsing.
 
sethroberts said:
Ideally you would have blood work done before, at the end of the cycle and then at the end of PCT if you really wanted to know where you were before, what the cycle did to your values and what the PCT did to your values -- I might even argue for a follow up to make sure that the post-PCT blook work wasn't unduly influenced by the PCT. We can piece this kind of data together from the scientific literature for some AAS use but there really isn't anything that we can piece together for pulsing.
Click to expand...

Also, I am not sure the paper regarding pulsing of glucocortiocids in children is apllicable. The reason they do that is because side effects of a given dose of glucocorticoid may be intolerable but because only certain doses of a drug are available to go lower they either need to break dosages in half or go to a less frequent dosing regimen. I would need to take another look at the paper to see what doses they were using and what condition they were treating.
 
sethroberts said:
Ideally you would have blood work done before, at the end of the cycle and then at the end of PCT if you really wanted to know where you were before, what the cycle did to your values and what the PCT did to your values -- I might even argue for a follow up to make sure that the post-PCT blook work wasn't unduly influenced by the PCT. We can piece this kind of data together from the scientific literature for some AAS use but there really isn't anything that we can piece together for pulsing.
Click to expand...
What does it matter if you have the values taken after you level back out? If you take them during obviously they are going to be out of whack. I am saying I came back to normal after a month. I felt back to normal a week after stopping.
 
sethroberts said:
Also, I am not sure the paper regarding pulsing of glucocortiocids in children is apllicable. The reason they do that is because side effects of a given dose of glucocorticoid may be intolerable but because only certain doses of a drug are available to go lower they either need to break dosages in half or go to a less frequent dosing regimen. I would need to take another look at the paper to see what doses they were using and what condition they were treating.
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Dude shut up with your negative nacy comments. If you don't want to pulse -don't. Its that simple! This thread is for people interested in pulsing and looking for how to correctly do it. I love pulsing and I think it is great for the recreational user. If you don't like it , unsubscribe so we can continue the thread without you. How experienced are you with steroids anyway?
 
hman85 said:
Dude shut up with your negative nacy comments. If you don't want to pulse -don't. Its that simple! This thread is for people interested in pulsing and looking for how to correctly do it. I love pulsing and I think it is great for the recreational user. If you don't like it , unsubscribe so we can continue the thread without you. How experienced are you with steroids anyway?
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It's not a matter of being negative, it is a matter of injecting a little bit of rigor into anecdotal information. As far as my experience, I have 12 years of drug discovery experience as a pharmacologist in the pharmaceutical industry and I have been into this topic since before I went to college.

Forming a theory is great but you have to subject it to a little rigor and test that theory or it is worthless.
 
hman85 said:
What does it matter if you have the values taken after you level back out? If you take them during obviously they are going to be out of whack. I am saying I came back to normal after a month. I felt back to normal a week after stopping.
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If you dont know what your levels were before your cycle then how do you know what "normal" was for you. If you do not know if you were suppressed during your cycle, then how do you know if your PCT was effective or if you even needed PCT. See my comment above.

If you would like to get off of the personal attacks and discuss the pros and cons of pulsing just let me know. But to say that your method "works" and that it is "great" based on a "feeling" is not really evidence.

I am not against pulsing. In fact I think it could have some merit. That is why I am discussing it. If I thought it had no merit I would say so and provide my basis for it.
 
sethroberts said:
If you dont know what your levels were before your cycle then how do you know what "normal" was for you. If you do not know if you were suppressed during your cycle, then how do you know if your PCT was effective or if you even needed PCT. See my comment above.

If you would like to get off of the personal attacks and discuss the pros and cons of pulsing just let me know. But to say that your method "works" and that it is "great" based on a "feeling" is not really evidence.

I am not against pulsing. In fact I think it could have some merit. That is why I am discussing it. If I thought it had no merit I would say so and provide my basis for it.
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I had previous blood work done before I ever started my cycle. so that was what I compared it to. I wasn't just goping by one test. I would like to continue the talk of pulsing. I think it has a great place. Take for instance superdrol, when ran on regular cycles it can have very bad side effects, but yet it is fast acting. Use it in pulsing and it cut down the sides(none except back pumps and little lethargy for me). Plus it is alot easier on the body because You can gain 15 pounds in 6 weeks as opposed to 3. Slower gains equal les stress on body and you can maintain gains easier.
 
hman85 said:
I had previous blood work done before I ever started my cycle. so that was what I compared it to. I wasn't just goping by one test. I would like to continue the talk of pulsing. I think it has a great place. Take for instance superdrol, when ran on regular cycles it can have very bad side effects, but yet it is fast acting. Use it in pulsing and it cut down the sides(none except back pumps and little lethargy for me). Plus it is alot easier on the body because You can gain 15 pounds in 6 weeks as opposed to 3. Slower gains equal les stress on body and you can maintain gains easier.
Click to expand...

Superdrol is a good place to start because it is so toxic. The only negative I can see is that I haven't seen any mention of half-life anywhere. I think it was mentioned many pages ago that longer half-life orals would not be great targets for pulsing. Becuase superdrol is dimethylated I could see it having a longer half-life which means that you would still see plasma build up. Dose would also be a concern. Doing 10 mg every other day as opposed to 20 or 30 mg eod could result in very different outcomes.
The back pumps and lethargy are interesting because it could be an indication of adrenal effects that may still be occurring even o na pulse.
 
sethroberts said:
Superdrol is a good place to start because it is so toxic. The only negative I can see is that I haven't seen any mention of half-life anywhere. I think it was mentioned many pages ago that longer half-life orals would not be great targets for pulsing. Becuase superdrol is dimethylated I could see it having a longer half-life which means that you would still see plasma build up. Dose would also be a concern. Doing 10 mg every other day as opposed to 20 or 30 mg eod could result in very different outcomes.
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Half life is 6 hours I believe. Yes 10mg eod would be great for a loong cycle. I have wanted to try this. I ran mine at 20-40 and it worked great.
 
hman85 said:
Half life is 6 hours I believe. Yes 10mg eod would be great for a loong cycle. I have wanted to try this. I ran mine at 20-40 and it worked great.
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Do you have a reference for the 6 hour half-life? Just wondering if it is bro-6 hours or literature-6 hours.
 
I think people get to worked up about having before and after blood tests. I think personally if a person can say that they feel fine, have maintained strength and muscle gained a month or so after a cycle and sexual function is okay it is good enough for me. If you took before and after bloodwork for a lot of things eg a death or heavy alcohol consumption i think it would so that the body deals with alot of harmful things daily and it recovers most of the time but we just dont focus on it as much as we do with anabolic steriods. Personally i did a pulse with p-plex for 7 weeks and i found it great. 3 months later still maintained all gains in strength and size.
 
Blood tests are ideal, and when I can afford i am going to book a block of 10 pivately then document various cycles with blood test, but the whole idea of pulsing and small dosed morning Dbol etc are to limit the need for blood tests and PCT.

I find the whole subject interesting and there are many possible ways to cycle. I have only tried one small Tbol cycle 10mg first thing in the AM, the first 14 days felt good, the second cycle i started after 14 days break, wasn't so good. and I got Iritis again which I thought may be linked so I stopped.

Personally I think i'll use my Tbol up with a regular type cycle, $ to 6 weeks long, and see how that goes, I have Tamoxifen but would hope not to have to use it, and I may get clomid incase there is 'shrinkage' but would like to try an OTC supp to get levels back up, maybe try some TESTOSTOLYZE.

WHen pulsing, If I am to use Dbol 20 to 30mg per training day, how long wuold you run this? like a normal cycle? 8 weeks or so? or could you potentially use it like this for longer?

I am thinking about pulsing 3 x week then 2 x week .


Most of you guys ar ein the US and can only get Pro hormones right?
 
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