Unacceptable: Why something needs to be done.

Jayhawkk said:
Just wanted to make myself clear on where I was coming from.
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I hear ya, but remember I have been here since before you even and I understand where you are coming from but the board was different back then, everyone knew everyone and everyone trusted everyone. People were cool back then and I have never screwed anyone since then and have always helped people. Before I got super busy I had the highest rep on the board (beelzebub and I were always close) then everyone started rep whoring and it got out of control but I beelze and I were the first to get those red commy stars back in the day hahaha. I am just making the point that I am the same person I was then, always willing to help.
 
LakeMountD said:
I hear ya, but remember I have been here since before you even and I understand where you are coming from but the board was different back then, everyone knew everyone and everyone trusted everyone. People were cool back then and I have never screwed anyone since then and have always helped people. Before I got super busy I had the highest rep on the board (beelzebub and I were always close) then everyone started rep whoring and it got out of control but I beelze and I were the first to get those red commy stars back in the day hahaha. I am just making the point that I am the same person I was then, always willing to help.
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Uhh.....so what exactly are you implying here? Kind of a brazen statement lake, don't you think?

There are PLENTY of good people on this board currently, as there were undoubtably then.
 
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LakeMountD said:
It seems that the naivety resides more in you than myself. I am actually quite stunned at your statement that says " And yes, I'm not wholly convinced that there is widespread contaminants in our supplements or that the testing at manufacturer's facilities is inadequate." I am not sure if you assume that I made up the study on the first page but ONCE AGAIN that is from the New England Journal of Medicine. Is that the only one? Unfortunately it is by far not the only study, that is just one that I felt was very shocking. How can you not be convinced even after last years methyl-epitiostanol problems?! 4 companies had 4 different chromatograms, or in other words had 4 different results. There has been testing done on three compounds from other companies that have found to be completely different than is on the label and contain contaminants. No I will not release those because they have been contacted privately in order to get to the bottom of the story and not cause a company to go under when there could be reasons for what happened.

With that being said are you really kidding me with the statement about making money? You think I wrote this to make money?! I have stated in the previous statements that once this association gets formed I think it would be great to put it on the label that you are compliant and if your sales go up, you know what? You deserve it. I have also said IBE has not done the things I want done in the past either, but we are moving towards it and we have always tested with a third party lab. If BSN and MT don't want to join then they don't have to. Frankly I don't care. Apparently you haven't read this entire thread because I specifically stated that voluntary compliance is only the first step. You don't have to come in guns blazing, but you do have to raise awareness, especially to a public who typically doesn't care. This is my third time stating this but if you feel as though the supplements you take are safe by all means disregard this thread :). In the meantime I will do all of you a favor and continue to try and make the industry safer, whether you think there is an ulterior motive or not. In other words, yes it will even benefit you cynical and ungrateful bastards ;).
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You seem prone to the ad hominem arguments. Again, a few studies showing that one one-hundredth of a percent of supplements are adulterated is far from widespread. You can certainly buy into the paranoia if you wish but there's no conclusive evidence to support these delusions. Various consumer advocacy groups routinely test supplements and find them to be free from toxins and generally within listed amounts. Again though a miniscule sample, so which one adequately reflects the market? You may deride and dismiss me as a cynic, and that certainly may be true as my involvement in the abatement business has particular influence.

I'm not against you in this endeavor, in fact I support the principle, it's the implementation I don't agree with. I stated my reasons why I believe voluntary compliance was inadequate, you are free to disagree. I feel your campaign would be more effective it you approached it from a business standpoint, rather than the morally driven, self-righteous approach. Define a parameter of testing protocols and patent or trademark this process...

Again, I'm not trying to take an adversarial role or necessarily play devil's advocate. I am merely providing another perspective even if it's viewed as cynical. I could easily just reply with some trite expression to convey support but I don't see that offering much help. If you believe my posts are only made in a mocking and derisive manner I will cease as that is not my intent and I do not wish to derail this thread nor your campaign.


RobInKuwait said:
Appealing to the FDA to regulate supplements? I hope you're kidding. I guess you missed the whole Vioxx thing, and how they delayed overseas competitor's antidepressant products for over 10 years until an American company completed their product. Do you realize it regularly takes 7-10 years or longer to get medicine approved. Do you think it would be any different for supplement approval? How many supplement companies could afford to wait that long for approval. Then after approval, the companies are still liable if the formula hurts people.

The government regulating supplements is the least effective and least desirable solution.
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The FDA currently regulates the supplement industry. Please do not misconstrue my words and commence with Red Herring fallacies. Nowhere did I state the FDA should approve of supplements in the same manner it does with pharmaceutical products. I merely stated that perhaps it was best if there was one standardize testing protocol and this would likely be best and most easily implement by FDA mandate. Otherwise we get various procedures all claiming to be better than others and the ensuing litany of problems therein.
 
I don't have the energy right now to respond to your long statements but I continue to find it funny that people said there are no claims to support this. It sounds like the tobacco industry lol. There is plenty of evidence. You think because they took 250 random supplements and found 1 in 3 to have high levels of heavy metals is not random enough? You think the N value needs to be higher in this study? I think it was a good representation personally and I have said this before, there have been three alone (out of 5) that I have tested and found to be tainted, worse than I thought they would be too and that is scary considering I picked random ones as well.

And I did not say voluntary implementation was the way I was doing it. I was only starting it like that. No reason to not let people voluntarily join first. There are a lot of details to work out in the beginning anyways, nothing can be jumped into.

Consumer advocacy groups rarely test for things like heavy metals. Heck they have their hands full enough quantitating what they find. Heck look what is happening with BSN and a bunch of others, they aren't even concerned about whether they are tainted, they don't even contain any actives.
 
datBtrue said:
In America? I've never heard of such a thing? Consumer advocacy in America? Really? :)

You have to be your own consumer advocate in America.
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You ever read Consumer Reports? Thats consumer advocacy at its best. You could also argue that Carfax reports are as well. I think the reason there is not more consumer advocacy in America, is because government took it upon itself to be consumer advocates, through the FDIC, SEC, FDA, ect. If those groups didn't exist, private companies would more than pick up the slack educating consumers and turn a profit while doing so.
 
ersatz said:
The FDA currently regulates the supplement industry. Please do not misconstrue my words and commence with Red Herring fallacies. Nowhere did I state the FDA should approve of supplements in the same manner it does with pharmaceutical products. I merely stated that perhaps it was best if there was one standardize testing protocol and this would likely be best and most easily implement by FDA mandate. Otherwise we get various procedures all claiming to be better than others and the ensuing litany of problems therein.
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Not sure which one of us is doing the "Red Herring" fallacies here. The FDA regulates the supplement industry as FOOD, which is why you see the vitamin info on the side of containers. FOOD has much less stringent standards than DRUGS. If the industry was to throw up a red flag and say supplements were unsafe, they would very likely start evaluating supplements as DRUGS.

I don't understand how people have these fatalistic views of free market economics. A free market will self regulate itself if given the chance. The government is much worse at regulation and it will end up costing us a lot more money in the long run.
 
LakeMountD said:
Is that the only one? Unfortunately it is by far not the only study, that is just one that I felt was very shocking. How can you not be convinced even after last years methyl-epitiostanol problems?! 4 companies had 4 different chromatograms, or in other words had 4 different results. There has been testing done on three compounds from other companies that have found to be completely different than is on the label and contain contaminants. No I will not release those because they have been contacted privately in order to get to the bottom of the story and not cause a company to go under when there could be reasons for what happened.
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LakeMountD said:
There is plenty of evidence. You think because they took 250 random supplements and found 1 in 3 to have high levels of heavy metals is not random enough? You think the N value needs to be higher in this study? I think it was a good representation personally and I have said this before, there have been three alone (out of 5) that I have tested and found to be tainted, worse than I thought they would be too and that is scary considering I picked random ones as well.
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Just curious. What other products have you done random testing on that were not in direct competition with products that you do or did have manufactured for your branded product line?
 
I agree totally agree that this should raise concerns among consumers of supplements.

BUT....unless people start dying because of the large concentrations of metal in their supplements, I doubt anyone will care enough to research every supplement company to see what their lab conditions are!- I'm not saying they shouldn't care, I just doubt people will! unless something drastic happens (which is usually the case with any major change in any industry or field-no one cares unless they are forced to because of some serious injury directly linked to whatever is in question).

How do you plan on making any real change in the industry? Besides trying to up the standards for IBE?

Just because you up the standards for IBE doesn't make it a priority for any other company to do the same if the consumers are still using their supplements. There has to be an incentive-and there will probably be less of one since upping the standards means upping the cost!

Unless people start dropping in the gym because of these unregulated supplements- I doubt people are going to care enough to up their standards and increase their costs.

So whats the plan for reformation of the supplement industry again?

If you have a good and effective one, go for it man! More power to you- it would be healthier in the long run to avoid these future possible health problems. I just doubt this will happen any time soon...
 
B5150 said:
Just curious. What other products have you done random testing on that were not in direct competition with products that you do or did have manufactured for your branded product line?
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I wrote in a previous post that I would not disclose these products to the public because I spoke with the companies personally and I feel as though they were taking the right steps to fix the situation. It was more misinformation on their part than anything else. I will say that I did not pick any PH's so I didn't just pick a competing product in order to attempt to discredit it. I am not out to get anyone, just protect myself and the consumer. I'll even admit this could be a little selfishness on my part, I want to know the supplements I TAKE are safe lol.
 
i think lakemount sounds genuine. i believe him when he says his intentions and his ideas on this are great. i cant imagine why this hasnt already been done.
are there any petitions just showing that there is a consumer want to back this
 
i think lakemount sounds genuine. i believe him when he says his intentions and his ideas on this are great. i cant imagine why this hasnt already been done.
are there any petitions just showing that there is a consumer want to back this
 
Supplement Testing Standards Organization, or STSO for the acronym enamored.

Get a nice logo. In order to display it on their supplements a company has to adhere to set standards, submit proof of such adherence, and submit to random testing of shipped products to ensure compliance. They pay a fee for the logo, the fee goes to pay for the org's activites. Kind of along the lines of a UL, or calling a wine Meritage, etc.

Congress gets deluged with mail and emails against new regulation of dietery supplements everytime the issue comes up. The supps may be dangerous, I'd wager more people die every year from properly administered rx drugs than from any ill effects of OTC supplements. But the FDA wants and has repeatedly reached for more power over supplements. And, if our rules are 'harmonized' with much of the rest of the world under codex regulations, we'll be going to doctors for prescriptions for multivitamins anyway, and paying through the ass to get them.

The push for some kind of self regulation is laudable and I'm a supporter of any private initiative that proposes to make my life easier and/or safer, which this would. However when it comes to the regulatory side please don't think for a minute anyone truly gives a fried ferrett about safety. It will be about money and industry protection and privilege, and that's it. Which means you could do this best job in the world, Lake, and your org will still be under fire for incompetence, impotence, and incapacity, simply because it will have power that others will want to weild for their own purposes. If you are successful enjoy it, because it will be a short time before your org's function will essentially be nationalized and used to make sure 'the right people' are supplying our supplements and getting handsomely paid for their services.

With that said, good luck.
 
The only thing I'm CERTAIN about being 'it is what it is and that's that' is whole foods. When I eat blueberries, I know I'm getting good anti-oxidants. When I eat salmon, I know I'm getting good protein and omegas. Etc.
 
I do not understand the animosity towards the OP. He could just go and sell us all well advertised garbage and laugh all the way to the bank. He consumes this stuff as well! Question: Would some sort of set up like the Istitute for Highway Safety that tests cars and rates them for safety be viable?
 
AZMIDLYF said:
I do not understand the animosity towards the OP. He could just go and sell us all well advertised garbage and laugh all the way to the bank. He consumes this stuff as well! Question: Would some sort of set up like the Istitute for Highway Safety that tests cars and rates them for safety be viable?
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I thought about that as well. An independent, unaffiliated company could facilitate all the lab tests on participating supplement companies. They could also arrange people to test all the products.
 
CDB said:
Supplement Testing Standards Organization, or STSO for the acronym enamored.

Get a nice logo. In order to display it on their supplements a company has to adhere to set standards, submit proof of such adherence, and submit to random testing of shipped products to ensure compliance. They pay a fee for the logo, the fee goes to pay for the org's activites. Kind of along the lines of a UL, or calling a wine Meritage, etc.

Congress gets deluged with mail and emails against new regulation of dietery supplements everytime the issue comes up. The supps may be dangerous, I'd wager more people die every year from properly administered rx drugs than from any ill effects of OTC supplements. But the FDA wants and has repeatedly reached for more power over supplements. And, if our rules are 'harmonized' with much of the rest of the world under codex regulations, we'll be going to doctors for prescriptions for multivitamins anyway, and paying through the ass to get them.

The push for some kind of self regulation is laudable and I'm a supporter of any private initiative that proposes to make my life easier and/or safer, which this would. However when it comes to the regulatory side please don't think for a minute anyone truly gives a fried ferrett about safety. It will be about money and industry protection and privilege, and that's it. Which means you could do this best job in the world, Lake, and your org will still be under fire for incompetence, impotence, and incapacity, simply because it will have power that others will want to weild for their own purposes. If you are successful enjoy it, because it will be a short time before your org's function will essentially be nationalized and used to make sure 'the right people' are supplying our supplements and getting handsomely paid for their services.

With that said, good luck.
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Ahh one of my favorite AM oldies finally posts. I completely agree with everything you say. The last paragraph is how a realist should sound and I welcome the statements. I agree that no one cares, but hey at least you guys will know that even though no one cares and people will try and cut corners, that there are a small number of people who do care and are working to help.
 
LakeMountD said:
Ahh one of my favorite AM oldies finally posts. I completely agree with everything you say. The last paragraph is how a realist should sound and I welcome the statements. I agree that no one cares, but hey at least you guys will know that even though no one cares and people will try and cut corners, that there are a small number of people who do care and are working to help.
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Realism may equal cynicism actually. It's not that no one cares, it's just a lot of people don't, and of the ones that do care a great many will think a private org is too powerless. They would rather have less choice, higher costs, and in the end perhaps a small amount more of safety. They won't necessarily put it that way of course. It just comes down to the fact that people have different tolerances for risk so no matter what you do for some it will be too much and for others never enough. That they at least have a choice in the private sphere won't occur to them until it's taken away.

Me, I'd love to have a supplement equivalent of UL. I'd pay the extra for the testing, especially since recently my supp intake has consisted of nothing but multis, fish oil and cissus. One thing the industry would have to deal with is as prices go up sales go down. How much, who knows? It depends. But to my mind most supplement companies are already pushing the bounds of marginal buying behavior by charging ~30 bucks if not more for what are questionably effective products at best. I mean if in order to run an effective supplement 'stack' you have to drop $90+, I'd rather run some straight steroids and get the real thing.
 
B5150 said:
I have been a proponent of these basic principle for years. Most are ignorant and the rest don't care.

Please don't mistake my comments for cynicism.
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CDB said:
Realism may equal cynicism actually. It's not that no one cares, it's just a lot of people don't, and of the ones that do care a great many will think a private org is too powerless.

Me, I'd love to have a supplement equivalent of UL.
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Seems we agree to a degree. Actually, being cynical is often more optimistic :D
 
Force of Green said:
The only thing I'm CERTAIN about being 'it is what it is and that's that' is whole foods. When I eat blueberries, I know I'm getting good anti-oxidants. When I eat salmon, I know I'm getting good protein and omegas. Etc.
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Actually if they are not organic you are getting A HELL OF A LOT MORE than you bargained for. Toxic pesticides, fungicides, and more. YUM.

Great post CDB.
 
Grunt76 said:
Actually if they are not organic you are getting A HELL OF A LOT MORE than you bargained for. Toxic pesticides, fungicides, and more. YUM.

Great post CDB.
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I shop at a store that has excellent quality control and I get produce that's either organic or grown from a local farmer.
 
Force of Green said:
Dude, pick a fight with someone else. Just a nickels worth a free advice.
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Well, not to disparage you as I'm guessing you check up on the guy, but he's got a point. I hear it all the time, people think they're eating healthy because the produce was grown locally or comes from some mom and pop stand. Meanwhile the local farmers are just as likely to use pesticides and other modern techniques as anyone else. More so even, my guess is their margins are a lot thinner and they need every advantage they can get over the giant corporate farms. Little and local doesn't automatically equal higher quality.

Me, I assume preservatives now equals money saved on embalming fluid when I die, and pesticides means I'm less likely to be bitten by a mosquito or tick when I go camping.
 
CDB said:
Well, not to disparage you as I'm guessing you check up on the guy, but he's got a point. I hear it all the time, people think they're eating healthy because the produce was grown locally or comes from some mom and pop stand. Meanwhile the local farmers are just as likely to use pesticides and other modern techniques as anyone else. More so even, my guess is their margins are a lot thinner and they need every advantage they can get over the giant corporate farms. Little and local doesn't automatically equal higher quality.

Me, I assume preservatives now equals money saved on embalming fluid when I die, and pesticides means I'm less likely to be bitten by a mosquito or tick when I go camping.
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When it comes down to the little, tiny b/s... Bro, I am not going to spy on the orchard down the street, or break into the chicken coop and go have the chicken feed analyzed by a lab.

I definitely agree with what you're saying and understand you fully. My typical shopping cart from Wegmans includes Blueberries, Jersey tomatoes, sirloin (ground), ezekiel organic cereal, ezekiel wraps, and some other things... etc. I know that the things I eat and the way I 'smart shop' have me in the top 10% (atleast) of the healthier shoppers of this nation.

When it comes down to very minute things that I just don't have the energy to care about, I don't stress over it. Otherwise I'd have the soil tested in my parents backyard and I'd spend my Monday, Wednesday, and Friday mornings tending to my garden. I'd look into breeding my own cattle and decapitating about 1 a week. God forbid I should hunt, because I don't know if the venison I just killed had been eating from a bush that someone threw some old 9-volt batteries in.

Grunt just comes across and a NAG. I could go around here in town as the local 'food NAG' and criticize EVERYthing people eat.

"Dude, is that lunchmeat? Do you know the preservatives used in that lunchmeat are used for embalming? Do you realize how much sodium is in that?"

"Bro, that bread may say whole wheat, but it's not. Look at the first ingredient. ENRICHED FLOUR!"

"Are those strawberries? Do you know how many animals have urinated on those?"

blah blah blah.

If we worry about everything, we all might as well say, "screw health!" and just throw it all to hell.

I'll plant a blueberry patch just for you Grunt.
 
Wegmans!

Hey they are not in too many areas. Back in high school during the summer I used to pick the fruit that was delivered to our local Wegmans.

Small world :)


CROWLER
 
Force of Green said:
When it comes down to the little, tiny b/s... Bro, I am not going to spy on the orchard down the street, or break into the chicken coop and go have the chicken feed analyzed by a lab.
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Well, you could also just ask. :lol: I get my blueberries from a friend I trust.

"Are those strawberries? Do you know how many animals have urinated on those?"
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Well, Grunt, I can only hope.

blah blah blah.

If we worry about everything, we all might as well say, "screw health!" and just throw it all to hell.

I'll plant a blueberry patch just for you Grunt.
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Ooooo I get this blueberry pie on Thanksgiving from this guy, it's insanely good. He reduces the blueberries to a thick syruppy consistency and then they whip some cream cheese with sugar, put it in a graham cracker crust, add some other secret ****, and the blueberries on top. Yum. It's ****ing good.
 
Grunt76 said:
And local farmers don't spray all kinds of sh*t on their produce? Just the ones far away?
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You have illustarted the case for the "those that don't care" perspective.

How many of the hundfeds of millions of supplement consumers who are "bodybuilders", "fitness enthusiests", "weight lifters" or the wannabe's of any of those go to the extend to buy range fed meats and dairy, organicly grown and the likes? I would venture that the majority of the entire "industry" do not. I would venture that a number of 1% is high. There are very very few who are elite. Very few.

Consider that this means that 99% of the supplement industries consumers are being exposed to a multitude of toxins every single day in the food that they consume. Even an alarming amount.

The majority of their bodies intake is from food and liquids that are toxic. Food and liquids are a staple. Suppose that staple intake produces levels that alarming. Suppose that alarming amount is 1000ppm, 5000ppm or even 10000ppm of such and such toxin.

Now suppose I supplement with a product that is going to add another 100ppm or 500ppm or even 1000ppm of toxins to my intake. Another 1%, 5% or 10% of toxins is insignificant. Supplements are not a staple of my toxic intake.

My point is and has been all along that supplement intake is a minescule amount of our intake of toxins. I am more worried about the pure actives that some of these companies are producing doing long term damage to my health than the minescule amount of toxins that happen to accompany them.

I'll worry about the splinters in my eye after I manage to get the log out.

I believe that it is a noble cause and a sign of integrity to want to implement something within your own business practices and the manufacture of your products. Label them as such, market them as such and advertise them as such. Transfer the cost to the consumer or not.

The "come one guys - lets do this" call to the industry because "it's the right thing to do" is no going to carry much if any weight with anyone.
 
nattydisaster said:
explain this
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thermolife had a suspicion on m-stack , they tested the product on a third party and seems like the product doesn't have turkesterone in it, this is a very expensive ingredient and it was a great plus to the M but according to the lab test there`s 0 turk in it, I laugh not to cry because I bought some last week
there's a big drama running on bb.com because of this
 
B5150 said:
You have illustarted the case for the "those that don't care" perspective.

How many of the hundfeds of millions of supplement consumers who are "bodybuilders", "fitness enthusiests", "weight lifters" or the wannabe's of any of those go to the extend to buy range fed meats and dairy, organicly grown and the likes? I would venture that the majority of the entire "industry" do not. I would venture that a number of 1% is high. There are very very few who are elite. Very few.

Consider that this means that 99% of the supplement industries consumers are being exposed to a multitude of toxins every single day in the food that they consume. Even an alarming amount.

The majority of their bodies intake is from food and liquids that are toxic. Food and liquids are a staple. Suppose that staple intake produces levels that alarming. Suppose that alarming amount is 1000ppm, 5000ppm or even 10000ppm of such and such toxin.

Now suppose I supplement with a product that is going to add another 100ppm or 500ppm or even 1000ppm of toxins to my intake. Another 1%, 5% or 10% of toxins is insignificant. Supplements are not a staple of my toxic intake.

My point is and has been all along that supplement intake is a minescule amount of our intake of toxins. I am more worried about the pure actives that some of these companies are producing doing long term damage to my health than the minescule amount of toxins that happen to accompany them.

I'll worry about the splinters in my eye after I manage to get the log out.

I believe that it is a noble cause and a sign of integrity to want to implement something within your own business practices and the manufacture of your products. Label them as such, market them as such and advertise them as such. Transfer the cost to the consumer or not.

The "come one guys - lets do this" call to the industry because "it's the right thing to do" is no going to carry much if any weight with anyone.
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Great, so let's just go ahead and add toxins to our toothpaste, toilet paper, kleenex, chewing gum... because it's all so insignificant.

The toxins in food served a purpose in keeping the food fresh and or non-inticing to pests - there's really not much of a reason for heavy metals in supplements. Why not eliminate the toxins we can? There are plenty of consumer advocacy groups for organic foods - why not for supplements? It's fairly obvious the organic / whole foods trend has caught on - large enough for separate grocery stores in most cases.

I don't think the stance of... its not quite killing anyone... and its REALLY HARRRD to accomplish is useful to anyone. If everyone thought like that - we'd likely still be walking to the stream for our water and growing our own corn.
 
TimberLakers said:
Great, so let's just go ahead and add toxins to our toothpaste, toilet paper, kleenex, chewing gum...
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...laundry detergent, deoderant, mothwash, clothing die, microwaves, cell phones, carpet fibers, radon gas, chlorinated water, MRI's, x-rays, the air outside, the air inside, CO2, UV rays...the list is endless of the sources of toxins that you are exposed to on a daily basis. They far exceed in proportion to the minescule ones possibly contained in some supplement by-products.

EDIT: How about the solvents that most of you guys consume by the ML in the use of suspending oral steroids and the suspension of RC's for recreational and PCT purposes. How about the solvents and PE's and DMSO you guys use in your transdermals. Let's not forget about the bodybuilder supplement buying cigarette smoker, addicts and alcoholics in our company.

To consider that they are a source that I need to be alarmed about is a stretch and sensationalism. The idea of a manufacturer going to lengths to assure toxin free products is commendable.

Any toxins that are in my supplements are just that...supplemental :D
 
nunes said:
thermolife had a suspicion on m-stack , they tested the product on a third party and seems like the product doesn't have turkesterone in it, this is a very expensive ingredient and it was a great plus to the M but according to the lab test there`s 0 turk in it, I laugh not to cry because I bought some last week
there's a big drama running on bb.com because of this
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Another reason we need to get this idea rolling.
 
B5150 said:
...laundry detergent, deoderant, mothwash, clothing die, microwaves, cell phones, carpet fibers, radon gas, chlorinated water, MRI's, x-rays, the air outside, the air inside, CO2, UV rays...the list is endless of the sources of toxins that you are exposed to on a daily basis. They far exceed in proportion to the minescule ones possibly contained in some supplement by-products.

EDIT: How about the solvents that most of you guys consume by the ML in the use of suspending oral steroids and the suspension of RC's for recreational and PCT purposes. How about the solvents and PE's and DMSO you guys use in your transdermals. Let's not forget about the bodybuilder supplement buying cigarette smoker, addicts and alcoholics in our company.

To consider that they are a source that I need to be alarmed about is a stretch and sensationalism. The idea of a manufacturer going to lengths to assure toxin free products is commendable.

Any toxins that are in my supplements are just that...supplemental :D
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True about the roids and whatnot. I'm weening off a lot of supps and trying to chalk it up to, "hey, you had your fun and learned your lessons. It's time to stop feeding yourself this stuff."

"My diet is free range chicken, grains, legumes, vegetables (organic). It fits perfectly with methoxy-trenbolone, Superdrol, and T-Roid!" LOL!
 
CDB said:
Well, you could also just ask. :lol: I get my blueberries from a friend I trust.



Well, Grunt, I can only hope.

blah blah blah.



Ooooo I get this blueberry pie on Thanksgiving from this guy, it's insanely good. He reduces the blueberries to a thick syruppy consistency and then they whip some cream cheese with sugar, put it in a graham cracker crust, add some other secret ****, and the blueberries on top. Yum. It's ****ing good.
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Can you ship some blueberries out to Jersey?

Funny thing is, my girl was over last night and we were watching a movie. I washed a served myself a bowl with 2 pounds of blueberries. She says, "you're not eating all that! That's a glutton!"

I eat them when I feel the need to just comfort eat from time to time. I actually lose fat from it too.
 
B5150 said:
...laundry detergent, deoderant, mothwash, clothing die, microwaves, cell phones, carpet fibers, radon gas, chlorinated water, MRI's, x-rays, the air outside, the air inside, CO2, UV rays...the list is endless of the sources of toxins that you are exposed to on a daily basis. They far exceed in proportion to the minescule ones possibly contained in some supplement by-products.

EDIT: How about the solvents that most of you guys consume by the ML in the use of suspending oral steroids and the suspension of RC's for recreational and PCT purposes. How about the solvents and PE's and DMSO you guys use in your transdermals. Let's not forget about the bodybuilder supplement buying cigarette smoker, addicts and alcoholics in our company.

To consider that they are a source that I need to be alarmed about is a stretch and sensationalism. The idea of a manufacturer going to lengths to assure toxin free products is commendable.

Any toxins that are in my supplements are just that...supplemental :D
Click to expand...


I agree with some of the things you said in your previous posts but a lot of what you are saying here is completely wrong. First off MRI's? Magnetic (keyword here) resonance imaging, nothing more than a glorified NMR but it simply aligns the protons within your body to give off a specific signal. Microwaves? These are VERY low energy waves and you should worry more about walking around outside than standing next to one of these. You are sort of just throwing everything you can in to try and make your point.

You make it seems as though taking some supplements just can't add up to the toxic waste you are exposed to in a single day. Lets just say that if you just happened to consume the herbs that contained that 114,000 ppm arsenic I can assure you that you would be having some very interesting cardiovascular problems. Not to mention studies have shown that methyl testosterone is one of the biggest things used in supplements to mask other things. How would you feel if your wife was taking this? How do you know that the next PH that you or your family member takes doesn't contain melamine or some other BS compound that China doesn't feel like separating out? You can be the cynic all day but it doesn't make the the information or the facts go away.

I also am not worried if even 3 people actually cared and the other millions don't. Bottom line is I will continue to be the gnat of the companies who don't do something about this until I see fit.
 
B5150 said:
EDIT: How about the solvents that most of you guys consume by the ML in the use of suspending oral steroids and the suspension of RC's for recreational and PCT purposes.
Any toxins that are in my supplements are just that...supplemental :D
Click to expand...

Doh!

:lol:
 
LakeMountD said:
Bottom line is I will continue to be the gnat of the companies who don't do something about this until I see fit.
Click to expand...
Being a gnat is not the same as developing and implementing a comprehensive program that is embraced and supported industry wide.

I have commended the idea multiple times.
 
LakeMountD said:
I agree with some of the things you said in your previous posts but a lot of what you are saying here is completely wrong. First off MRI's? Magnetic (keyword here) resonance imaging, nothing more than a glorified NMR but it simply aligns the protons within your body to give off a specific signal. Microwaves? These are VERY low energy waves and you should worry more about walking around outside than standing next to one of these. You are sort of just throwing everything you can in to try and make your point.

You make it seems as though taking some supplements just can't add up to the toxic waste you are exposed to in a single day. Lets just say that if you just happened to consume the herbs that contained that 114,000 ppm arsenic I can assure you that you would be having some very interesting cardiovascular problems. Not to mention studies have shown that methyl testosterone is one of the biggest things used in supplements to mask other things. How would you feel if your wife was taking this? How do you know that the next PH that you or your family member takes doesn't contain melamine or some other BS compound that China doesn't feel like separating out? You can be the cynic all day but it doesn't make the the information or the facts go away.

I also am not worried if even 3 people actually cared and the other millions don't. Bottom line is I will continue to be the gnat of the companies who don't do something about this until I see fit.
Click to expand...
Misguiding salespeople annoy me. My dad went to GNC to buy some Endurox for rowing and the guy said, "This NO-Xplode is the new endurance thing! it'll feel much better than Endurox, blah blah... if you don't like it, return it..." He said he felt like he was going to have a heart attack in the boat. I was out of state, but I caught a spur of the moment anger 'slip'.
 
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