Question Regarding Permanent Effects of Aromitize Inhibitors

[teribleturtle]

So I have been reading up on Aromatize Inhibitors such as 6-oxo and ATD, I have read on various sources that these AI’s permanently bind to and destroy estrogen. I find this to be somewhat troubling, which begs the question that perhaps some of you can help answer which is; Is the claim that they permanently eliminate estrogen true?? Does this mean that taking one 3 week cycle of say 6 oxo, ATD, or Jungle Warfare enough to eliminate estrogen forever? How exactly does it work?
I ask this because I have been shedding a considerable amount of hair and growing more body hair since March when I did a three week cycle of Jungle Warfare which contains a strong AI. I have read that these AI’s contribute to hair loss because free test is only able to convert to DHT and not estrogen any longer. I have also read that due to this hair loss is even possible in individuals not genetically predisposed to MPB (like myself). I guess my other question is, is how can I get my body to start converting some free testosterone into estrogen again? I know this question is contrary to the philosophy of many on this board but in all honesty I would much rather has my full head of hair over a lot of muscle.

 

[nattydisaster]

only eliminates it when you're on it. Also, most OTC AI's dont eliminate 100% of estrogen. Arimidex and aromasin are more powerful...although ATD is pretty powerful as well.

 

[teribleturtle]

only eliminates it when you're on it. Also, most OTC AI's dont eliminate 100% of estrogen. Arimidex and aromasin are more powerful...although ATD is pretty powerful as well.

Well why is it then that in the description of these products they are called suicide inhibitors the permanently eliminate estrogen, also how long after taking an AI (JW) is "normal" estrogen production to resume and DHT production/build up to decrease. Do you think taking small doses of finasteride for a few weeks would help with this?

 

[rpen22]

Well why is it then that in the description of these products they are called suicide inhibitors the permanently eliminate estrogen...?

They inhibit estrogen synthesis by permanently binding to aromatase, but the body will produce more.

 

[Distilled Water]

They inhibit estrogen synthesis by permanently binding to aromatase, but the body will produce more.

Yea just like when running AAS, the body stops producing testosterone but once your off it should produce more. Remember its a hormone just like testosterone. Estrogen works the same way you dont have a set number of either.

 

[Steveoph]

Yup, I think the confusion stems from the fact that you originally thought "AI’s permanently bind to and destroy estrogen " but what AI's do is bound irreversibly (Can't come off) to the aromatase enzyme which is responsible for the conversion of testosterone --> estrogen.

For further clarification just google Aromatase Inhibitor, there's plenty of easily accessible writing for women taking AI's like Arimidex, but the info is applicable.

 

[rpen22]

Yea just like when running AAS, the body stops producing testosterone but once your off it should produce more. Remember its a hormone just like testosterone. Estrogen works the same way you dont have a set number of either.

Uh, I guess, if that makes sense to you. That's not really the way I think about it though unless I'm misreading it. On AAS, your body stops producing T as part of a negative feedback loop. With AIs, you're inhibiting the action of an enzyme(aromatase) which is responsible for aromatizing androgens into estrogens.

 

[Distilled Water]

Uh, I guess, if that makes sense to you. That's not really the way I think about it though unless I'm misreading it. On AAS, your body stops producing T as part of a negative feedback loop. With AIs, you're inhibiting the action of an enzyme(aromatase) which is responsible for aromatizing androgens into estrogens.

True both do work thru difference mechanism's. I was trying to simplify it and make it more of a broad range. I have been one up'd

 

[thesinner]

Nothing to worry. The body naturally "washes out" the enzyme, and makes more to keep blood concentrations stable. After a few weeks of discontinuation, the body will return to normal.

Also, according to the studies done on 6-oxo, the beneficial effects begin to wain after about 4-6 weeks of use.

 

[jdev]

The do permanently bind to estrogen, however, your body is constantly producing estrogen. I just read the other posts. sounds like rpen said the same exact thing

About the hair, i think theres a thread by BigVrunga on it someplace with all the options for treatment for hair loss.

 

[teribleturtle]

My concern is basically that due to the AI my free test instead of converting to some estrogen all is converting to DHT thus causing hair loss. I read somewhere on BB.com that with AI's hairloss i possible even in individuals without genetic predisposition to to MPB due to the highly elevated levels of DHT and lack of estrogen. I also heard that drinking soy milk daily can help me out in controlling DHT due to the phytoestrogens in soy. Also any thoughts on taking finasteride at very very small doses EOD for a short time to control the DHT?

 

[RenegadeRows]

I don't go above 25mg of ATD per day. Any more results in libido loss for me, which says it's more powerful than we think.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

So I have been reading up on Aromatize Inhibitors such as 6-oxo and ATD, I have read on various sources that these AI’s permanently bind to and destroy estrogen. I find this to be somewhat troubling, which begs the question that perhaps some of you can help answer which is; Is the claim that they permanently eliminate estrogen true?? Does this mean that taking one 3 week cycle of say 6 oxo, ATD, or Jungle Warfare enough to eliminate estrogen forever? How exactly does it work?
I ask this because I have been shedding a considerable amount of hair and growing more body hair since March when I did a three week cycle of Jungle Warfare which contains a strong AI. I have read that these AI’s contribute to hair loss because free test is only able to convert to DHT and not estrogen any longer. I have also read that due to this hair loss is even possible in individuals not genetically predisposed to MPB (like myself). I guess my other question is, is how can I get my body to start converting some free testosterone into estrogen again? I know this question is contrary to the philosophy of many on this board but in all honesty I would much rather has my full head of hair over a lot of muscle.

If you're not prone to "male pattern baldness" then you might have "TELOGEN EFFLUVIUM". (A rapid hair shedding from all over your head). I'm going through the same thing. I did 2 months of ATD then 2 months of a natural test booster which contains a natural estrogen suppressor (big mistake on my part as 4 months was way too long). This basically causes a shock to your hair follicles as the androgens attach to the scalp. The bad news is there isn't much you can do to stop the shedding from T.E. ..not finastide, not dutusteride.. nothing. The good news is if you stop taking the A.I.s your body will correct itself in a few months, the hair shedding will stop and your hair will grow back. You can speed up the process by using Minoxidil. It wont stop the shedding but it will make the new hair grow back faster so it wont be too noticeable while you deal with that mess.

 

[teribleturtle]

If you're not prone to "male pattern baldness" then you might have "TELOGEN EFFLUVIUM". (A rapid hair shedding from all over your head). I'm going through the same thing. I did 2 months of ATD then 2 months of a natural test booster which contains a natural estrogen suppressor (big mistake on my part as 4 months was way too long). This basically causes a shock to your hair follicles as the androgens attach to the scalp. The bad news is there isn't much you can do to stop the shedding from T.E. ..not finastide, not dutusteride.. nothing. The good news is if you stop taking the A.I.s your body will correct itself in a few months, the hair shedding will stop and your hair will grow back. You can speed up the process by using Minoxidil. It wont stop the shedding but it will make the new hair grow back faster so it wont be too noticeable while you deal with that mess.

I hope that is what it is (TE), for the most part I notice shedding from all over not one specified region, however I used to have and extremely low and “closed in” hairline and widows peak, those areas seemed to have really thinned out. Now I don’t really mind that as my hairline is still rather low and closed in, what worries me is if this will continue to progress and affect the rest of the hairline. Also I was practically hair less as far as facial and body hair before taking JW I am noticing that I am now growing more body/facial hair, does this hair growth coincide with MPB?? And is that normal when taking JW or other AI’s? Also how do you know that your shedding is TE? Did you get diagnosed?
I know I ask a lot of questions but this situation has already caused a few sleepless nights and changed my whole outlook on supplements and bodybuilding in general, I appreciate all of the help and advice THANKS!

By the way I am 22 years old and still single, which is sort of why my hair and looks still matter alot to me.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

I hope that is what it is (TE), for the most part I notice shedding from all over not one specified region, however I used to have and extremely low and “closed in” hairline and widows peak, those areas seemed to have really thinned out. Now I don’t really mind that as my hairline is still rather low and closed in, what worries me is if this will continue to progress and affect the rest of the hairline. Also I was practically hair less as far as facial and body hair before taking JW I am noticing that I am now growing more body/facial hair, does this hair growth coincide with MPB?? And is that normal when taking JW or other AI’s? Also how do you know that your shedding is TE? Did you get diagnosed?
I know I ask a lot of questions but this situation has already caused a few sleepless nights and changed my whole outlook on supplements and bodybuilding in general, I appreciate all of the help and advice THANKS!

By the way I am 22 years old and still single, which is sort of why my hair and looks still matter alot to me.

if the hair shedding is "from all over not one specified region" and is coming out rapidly (try lightly tugging at a handful of hair and see if a bunch falls out.) if you see a dozen hairs or so then that is not MPB but T.E.
I personally havent noticed body hair growth from AI.s but anything that causes a significant rise in Test can cause body hair growth.
I havent been to the Doc's regarding my TE but Ive read extensively on it. This is the 2nd time I'm experiencing TE. My 1st time was about a year ago from a superdrol cycle. I knew right away that this was NOT MPB. I've also experience "normal" hair loss due to MPB from cycles and its totally different..a much slower hair loss process and hair is only lost in the normal MPB pattern, not hundreds of hairs from top,bottom,sides etc. You'll also notice the "bulb" on the end of the hair shaft which
usually means T.E.
No problem..I know what your going through with the TE. I'm 2 weeks into it but since I've been there before Im not overly concerned...I only dont want the loss to be overly noticeable before it grows in again. Hence my use of Minoxidil. I normally wear my hair a bit on the longer side, not a buzz cut so my hair matters much to me as well...43 and single so I care what the ladies think too

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

P.S.
there are other good products that help build muscle that are non hormonal, and that do not affect hormones in anyway, so dont give up on B.B'ing. Also next time you can try something like Dutusteride or Toco 8 before the shedding starts...at the start of the cycle and this may prevent TE from even starting. Thats what I should've done..

 

[Predaking]

If your HPTA is making you estrogen dominant and you want to get off AASs forever, then AI's don't help in the long term?

What would help?

 

[Zero V]

if the hair shedding is "from all over not one specified region" and is coming out rapidly (try lightly tugging at a handful of hair and see if a bunch falls out.) if you see a dozen hairs or so then that is not MPB but T.E.
I personally havent noticed body hair growth from AI.s but anything that causes a significant rise in Test can cause body hair growth.
I havent been to the Doc's regarding my TE but Ive read extensively on it. This is the 2nd time I'm experiencing TE. My 1st time was about a year ago from a superdrol cycle. I knew right away that this was NOT MPB. I've also experience "normal" hair loss due to MPB from cycles and its totally different..a much slower hair loss process and hair is only lost in the normal MPB pattern, not hundreds of hairs from top,bottom,sides etc. You'll also notice the "bulb" on the end of the hair shaft which
usually means T.E.
No problem..I know what your going through with the TE. I'm 2 weeks into it but since I've been there before Im not overly concerned...I only dont want the loss to be overly noticeable before it grows in again. Hence my use of Minoxidil. I normally wear my hair a bit on the longer side, not a buzz cut so my hair matters much to me as well...43 and single so I care what the ladies think too

You seem very keen and knowledgable on this subject. This is something I have been wondering about for a long time. I want to do a PH cycle in about a 8 or 9 months and I am worried about hair loss. My family has zero MPB, we have wire for hair and lost of it.

But my question is then, if you experience hair loss form a PH, which is basically too much DHT, its not permament then? It will come back it is just for a month or two?

I am just worried about losing my head of hair, I do not look good bald...

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

You seem very keen and knowledgable on this subject. This is something I have been wondering about for a long time. I want to do a PH cycle in about a 8 or 9 months and I am worried about hair loss. My family has zero MPB, we have wire for hair and lost of it.

But my question is then, if you experience hair loss form a PH, which is basically too much DHT, its not permament then? It will come back it is just for a month or two?

I am just worried about losing my head of hair, I do not look good bald...

It depends on whether or not your hairloss is from MPB or T.E.
AAS, P.H, & A.Is cause hormonal imbalances which sends hair follicles into shock in some people. Even if MPB doesnt run in your family, you can still get T.E. In the short term the TE hair loss is much more dramatic as it sheds very quickly and within a couple months you'll notice your hair being thinner. The good news is, it will grow back. MPB hair loss is a bit slower and most times you can get through a cycle without too much worry, BUT the loss wil be permanent if you don't take a product that combats MPB.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

If your HPTA is making you estrogen dominant and you want to get off AASs forever, then AI's don't help in the long term?

What would help?

If you're already on AASs then you may want an AI to balance your hormones out, but if you weren't cycling AASs or PHs and your body was "normal" to begin with, then an A.I. can possibly make your hormones out of wack and cause the hairloss, particulary if want to stay on them for a long time. Just cycle them like any other supp...
MPB is a much easier side effect to control then T.E. though..and if your suseptable to T.E. when taking these types of supps and you want to keep your hair 100% of the time then try something that has no effect on the HPTA system like a Ecdysterone product. Invalid Link Removed

 

[Zero V]

It depends on whether or not your hairloss is from MPB or T.E.
AAS, P.H, & A.Is cause hormonal imbalances which sends hair follicles into shock in some people. Even if MPB doesnt run in your family, you can still get T.E. In the short term the TE hair loss is much more dramatic as it sheds very quickly and within a couple months you'll notice your hair being thinner. The good news is, it will grow back. MPB hair loss is a bit slower and most times you can get through a cycle without too much worry, BUT the loss wil be permanent if you don't take a product that combats MPB.

Well I dont have to worry about MPB, its never been in my family. Our hair is actually a pain sometimes. It grows out fast, and sucks to get a haircut there is so much of it.

Well it makes me feel better that hairloss do to a PH is temp though. I will NEVER use an AAS, but PH may be something down the line.

 

[ecu19]

To answer the OPs question, I believe you may be confused with Aromatase Inhibitors and "killing/binding to estrogen." Here is a little fun (yeah right) biology lesson:

As men, we are unable to actually make estrogen. We only make androgens. But, our body needs estrogen believe it or not. In order to get estrogen, our body uses an enzyme called the aromatase enzyme, an enzyme located in the cytochrome p450 class. In order to create estrogen, these aromatase enzymes must bind to testosterone, or androstendione in order to convert into estradiol and estrone respectively.

(This may get a little geeky) In order to convert testosterone into estradiol, the aromatase enzyme must perform a methyl reduction at the 19th position, along with a conversion from an oxygen to a hydroxy at the 3rd position (three hydroxylations on the A ring).

So as you can see, what Aromatase Inhibitors do (or AIs for short) is to bind to the Aromatase enzyme, thus rendering it unable to convert androgens into estrogens. The AIs that are permanent are only permanent on the aromatase enzymes they inhibit. Your body will produce/recycle more, so eventually they will be lost, but for the time taking the supplement, you should be good to go. How long it takes for your body to recycle/make new aromatase, I have no idea.

Hope this cleared up a couple things for you.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

Well I dont have to worry about MPB, its never been in my family. Our hair is actually a pain sometimes. It grows out fast, and sucks to get a haircut there is so much of it.

Well it makes me feel better that hairloss do to a PH is temp though. I will NEVER use an AAS, but PH may be something down the line.

Yes, in your specific case the hair loss may be temporary (if you even get T.E. at all). You may be one of the lucky ones who don't ever have hair issues.