RPN Havoc Log!

[Psikiguy]

I'm not losing any strength or size yet. Actually gaining I think. I can't use the pulldown machine anymore. It's too light. I had to move to pull ups. I weigh 282, and I'm like a month away from my first muscle up. I can do 10 pull ups and 16 chin ups at this weight, but they're really fast and explosive. I'm pretty sure it's enough momentum to take me over the bar, I need to work on dip strength though.


Anyways, libido fine, mood great, I'm great. I think that I'm coming off very nicely.

 

[R14J7]

Before and after pics? I've been following this from the start. Currently coming to the end of week 3. Strength and weight is increasing and I'm lifting heavier each week. Haven't noticed anything else though. No sides (good or bad). Everyday is just the norm

30/40/40/40/50/50

 

[Psikiguy]

Before and after pics? I've been following this from the start. Currently coming to the end of week 3. Strength and weight is increasing and I'm lifting heavier each week. Haven't noticed anything else though. No sides (good or bad). Everyday is just the norm 30/40/40/40/50/50

I'm working on it, I took the before pics somewhere specific, and I want to take the afters in the same place for effect and that might take a week or so. Don't worry though, they'll be here!

What's your pct like?

 

[Psikiguy]

Oh yeah! I can see myself visibly leaning out. I'm sure that that bloat was just that; bloat. I must have lost some fat even with the AWFUL diet I was giving myself. I've decided to go on keto in a week, while keeping calories and protein the same to cut without losing mass. I'm approaching my 3 year anniversary of when I decided to change my life (April 13th), and this has made the after pictures even more dramatic for that transformation.

Thank all you guys for your help.

 

[Psikiguy]

I'm bumping nolva down to 20mg because I don't think that the bottle will last much longer than two weeks at this rate. I need at least 3 weeks out of this bottle.

 

[R14J7]

I'm working on it, I took the before pics somewhere specific, and I want to take the afters in the same place for effect and that might take a week or so. Don't worry though, they'll be here! What's your pct like?

I have Nolva and Activate Xtreme. Haven't decided dosages yet (alongside cycle assist, fish oil, etc as per cycle)

 

[Psikiguy]

Spilled my bottle of nolva. Looks like this isn't going to be a functioning PCT, I'm too broke to drop another $50.

 

[Mystere3]

What do you mean the lat pulldown machine is too light? Does it go to 50?

I use the lat pulldown machine and I can do muscle-ups for reps while wearing a 88 lb x-vest. Kai Greene trains with lat pull-downs. You just need to focus on mind-muscle connection when training and pull it with a slow, controlled movement with a long eccentric, not just moving the weight.

Doing a bar muscle up without kipping takes a lot more strength than being able to do 10 pull-ups. If you're going to gay it crossfit style maybe you could do one.

I'm not losing any strength or size yet. Actually gaining I think. I can't use the pulldown machine anymore. It's too light. I had to move to pull ups. I weigh 282, and I'm like a month away from my first muscle up. I can do 10 pull ups and 16 chin ups at this weight, but they're really fast and explosive. I'm pretty sure it's enough momentum to take me over the bar, I need to work on dip strength though.


Anyways, libido fine, mood great, I'm great. I think that I'm coming off very nicely.

 

[Psikiguy]

What do you mean the lat pulldown machine is too light? Does it go to 50? I use the lat pulldown machine and I can do muscle-ups for reps while wearing a 88 lb x-vest. Kai Greene trains with lat pull-downs. You just need to focus on mind-muscle connection when training and pull it with a slow, controlled movement with a long eccentric, not just moving the weight. Doing a bar muscle up without kipping takes a lot more strength than being able to do 10 pull-ups. If you're going to gay it crossfit style maybe you could do one.

I mean, slow, controlled movement of 290lbs (max) on my gym's lat pulldown machine is too easy. I'm a form monster, I would never rush lifting that kind of weight. I can lift that with a controlled movement around 16 times and It's getting too easy so I had to go to weighted pull ups. I suspect the machine is not as heavy as it states, but nonetheless it's still too light.

I want more than anything to do a muscle up, but I obviously want to do one properly, and kipping just looks idiotic. I can get myself over the bar, it's just shifting from pull to push that's my issue at the moment. This cycle brought me a lot closer though.

 

[Mystere3]

If you can only do 10 pull-ups and can lift more than your body weight on lat pulldown 16 times, obviously that doesn't add up. Idk what to tell you.

My working sets for lat pulldown and low cable row (for 15-20 reps) tend to be about 225 lb and I get good lat activation with them. Maybe one arm barbell, hammer strength high rows, or t-bar rows would be more helpful.

 

[Psikiguy]

If you can only do 10 pull-ups and can lift more than your body weight on lat pulldown 16 times, obviously that doesn't add up. Idk what to tell you. My working sets for lat pulldown and low cable row (for 15-20 reps) tend to be about 225 lb and I get good lat activation with them. Maybe one arm barbell, hammer strength high rows, or t-bar rows would be more helpful.

I agree entirely, which is why I'm sure that the labeled weight is not the actual weight. It has to be more like 260, there's no other explanation.

I've become a big fan of bent over barbell rows, and t-bad rows. I find that those, along with straight arm pulldowns give me the most intense lat work outs.

 

[Mystere3]

Slow your eccentric on the lat pulldown to 4 seconds and see if it's still too easy, or do 10 sets of 10 with 1 minute rest between sets. There's always ways to increase the intensity of your workout. I can curl an Olympic bar with two plates but can still work my biceps with a 10 lb dumbbell. Saying it's too easy for you just makes you sound like an idiot.

 

[Psikiguy]

I still feel fine. I have like 3 or four doses of nolva left that didn't spill. I'm not losing strength or getting smaller. I don't feel depressed or lethargic. I still weigh 281.

 

[Mystere3]

You should use this opportunity to get more.

 

[Psikiguy]

You should use this opportunity to get more.

If you've ever met a med school student, you'd know that this cycle was already a stretch for me. Bills to pay and all that. I'll probably get more in a week or two but for now the arimistane will have to carry me over

 

[Mystere3]

Ok, enjoy shutdown I guess? SERM isn't an optional part of a cycle. You'll find out very soon why, especially since you were taking the novla DURING the cycle even though people told you not to.

 

[Psikiguy]

Upon actually measuring out the remaining nolva, I have 110 mg left. I'll have to do 10mg daily until I can purchase a new bottle.

 

[Psikiguy]

I've been feeling great. My concentration and energy is just about entirely back. I'm still just as strong if not stronger, and I can't notice any size loss.
All negative havoc side effects are gone.

 

[Mystere3]

That's prolly better than nothing.

You'll lose a lot of the muscle glycogen as the hormone clears; it'll take awhile to clear because of fat solubility.

You'll lose a lil strength as this happens but it should be higher than before the cycle.

 

[Psikiguy]

I do in fact seem to be developing a bit of gyno. I hope my nolva isn't fake...

I'll be upping doses of all of my AI, and increasing carb cuts to minimize fat gain. Rebound seems to be an issue for me. Ordering more nolva. I would rather be broke than femininely well-endowed.

Good news; the boys seem to be uh... Back to their former glory. I don't have any shut down related issues, and they've quite literally grown back.

Bad news: I'm taking the dose back up for 30mg. I'm not going to get the new nolva before then it runs out, it won't ship fast enough, so I hope I can do with out it for a day or two.

 

[Mystere3]

I'd prolly just run 20 and increase your AI dosing.

 

[Psikiguy]

I'd prolly just run 20 and increase your AI dosing.

I'm definitely increasing the AI. I'll work out the details on the dosage of nolva as soon as I find out how soon I can have a new bottle

 

[Psikiguy]

I'm glad I got this out of my system. I've been natty this entire time and there was always that aspect of "what if" going on in my head. I've come to the conclusion that I like the natty lifestyle a bit more, but the effort and resources needed to use steroids has given me a new respect for both sides of the sport of bodybuilding.

 

[Psikiguy]

Not sure if gyno or fat at this point. Got the quickest shipping on nolva.
Upped AI. Not much else. I'll be going to gym In a little while. Strength report then.

 

[Psikiguy]

Definitely losing some strength. Could be lack of carbs.

 

[Psikiguy]

PCT day 6: I haven't seen a significan difference. I can feel myself losing size, which is troublesome. I lost a little bit of strength, 'nothing incredible. 10 reps turned to 5-6 reps for bench on the weight that I was using before.

I'm using 30mg of nolva for now. This bottle definitely didn't have as much as it said in the first place. It was supposed to be a 60ml bottle with 600mg. It should last 20 days at 30mg a day, but I measured it out with the dropper, and it's only around 50ml.

My chest is flattening out, and my arms don't look Herculean in comparison to when I started anymore. I think that by the time this is all done, all I'll have done was go through a learning experience.

ALSO: just a personal event, got $300 stolen from my bank account due to hackers on my computer. I'm glad I bought the new bottle when I did.

 

[Mystere3]

You shouldn't lose strength that fast, that's a really big difference, like 20%. It's probably placebo.

Size lost in pct initially is muscle glycogen which you'd lose in any case as soon as you stop hormones.

 

[Psikiguy]

You shouldn't lose strength that fast, that's a really big difference, like 20%. It's probably placebo. Size lost in pct initially is muscle glycogen which you'd lose in any case as soon as you stop hormones.

I'm assuming that the huge difference in strength is due to me cutting carbohydrates out of my diet recently. It's always made me weaker.

 

[Mystere3]

Why are you cutting in pct?

 

[Psikiguy]

I've been in PCT for a whole week today. Just realized that I forgot to take my doses today so I'll have to do it when I get out of work tonight.

I feel fine, my gyno situation seems to be stagnating. Might have been an initial estrogen rebound that calmed down.

My muscles look flat. My chest in particular. I don't know why. I do look bigger than before though which is what I was going for but still it's disappointing to not look like I did on cycle. I'm working out tomorrow, so I'll go in depth and post my work out journal here so you can all see how I've improved or lost strength in certain areas.
My back width is decreasing slowly, although that seems to be the trend all around. I think I'm making it seem more dramatic than it is though. It seems that it really is impossible to escape genetic limitations.

On the side of good news, I can now leg press, which I couldn't do before with my knee. They're pretty light, but the muscle memory in my legs is making them balloon back up to their former glory with high reps. Which is making me very happy! My upper body was huge but I looked like I hadn't hit legs a day in my life before!

I'm suspecting that Havoc may have delayed the healing of my knee.

I'll update later with weight, but I am losing weight. The on cycle fat that clung on is dropping off again.

 

[Mystere3]

What do you mean it's impossible to avoid genetic limitations? That's just an excuse.

I had undersized biceps compared to the rest of my body several years ago, until I made them a priority. Since then I've grown arms from 17" to 20" and they're one of my best body parts now. Everyone will have lagging body parts but that can be overcome with hard work.

Perhaps the only exception to this is calves as some ppl have very high insertions meaning they have very few muscle fibers. That's why Dennis wolf and ronnie coleman had such disproprionately small calves.

As far as losing size, that's muscle glycogen as I said before and it's unavoidable (except with ostarine, to some degree)

 

[Psikiguy]

Sorry, I haven't updated in a while. I've been going through some problems personally (unrelated to this). I've kept most of my strength, and lost most of my size. I'm still larger than when I started, however my chest is inciting self reflective questions of "do I even lift?". My appetite is really ravenous. I wish that could have been that way on cycle. Also, I'm getting surgery for my knee, so looks like I'll be out for a week.

My lat width is still larger, so that's good. The weight that I lifted before is still the weight I lift now, it's just noticeably harder towards the last repetitions.

I've been taking 20mg of nolva a day. I got my second bottle, so I never had to stop.


Now to the issues: I've been really aggressive. It seems like I'm always mad about nothing. It's odd, because I'm generally a tamed, docile person. I don't know what the problems is, I wasn't like this even when I was taking Epistane.

I'll try to keep you updated.

 

[Psikiguy]

I may be psyching myself out... Pictures show that I look the same. I started taking hydroxycut again because of the energy and focus that it gives me. I don't seem to react badly to it now, could have been an Epistane related reaction before. I'm tapering down to 20mg of nolva today.

 

[Chub]

Just had 2 scoops, I'll update after my workout

:EDIT wrong thread oops

 

[Psikiguy]

I'm ballooning back up, and I'm stronger than I was on cycle. I don't see how this is possible. Anyone care to explain how this could be happening?

Currently: pissed off constantly, intensely aggressive, stronger than I was on cycle, looking leaner but more fat (guessing slight gyno) around chest.

 

[Mystere3]

It's a miracle.

 

[Psikiguy]

It's a miracle.

I suppose so.

 

[Psikiguy]

I'm still bigger, I'm still stronger, and I'm still perpetually pissed off for no reason. It's getting to be really weird. It really shows me how little control of my emotions I really have.

I've been busy with work, school, and personal issues, but I'll be working out again tomorrow. I've been down to three full body workouts a week instead of four, which is regrettable. I've come to use exercise as a major crutch of sorts to vent my own negative emotions and stress. But the lack of frequency in this outlet is messing up my "mojo".

Anyways, still on 20mg of nolva, still taking DAA, and still taking arimistane. Still have extra adipose accumulation around my chest, but it doesn't seem too drastic.

I weigh 276 pounds as of this morning.

At the gym Monday, I was able to pull off 15 (failure on 16) pull ups, 19 (failure on 20) chin ups. They're really easy now, which a few years ago is something that I couldn't have even dreamed of. I'll begin putting weight on my belt once I hit an easy 25 pull ups, and I'm sure by then I'll be higher on chin ups.

I'm very impatient to begin a cut. I have a lot of body fat, and I'm gaining more. I really should have cut down to 230 before this. I was at 269lbs before this, and I'll be able to (hopefully) get down to 230 before June if I really play my diet right. That leaves me a month and a half for around 45 pounds. Which is doable based on my track record with fat loss, I may take it slower for muscle retention purposes though, we'll see.


If anyone has a possible explanation for my after-cycle growth, I'm open to hearing them.

 

[Psikiguy]

Oh also, I've had some major muscle growth in the temporalis and masseter muscles. My jawline is very defined compared to before, and my temples looks like they have cysts on them whenever I chew or clench my jaw. I'm also getting actual pumps in these muscles when I chew or clench my jaw repeatedly. Nothing detrimental, and it kind of makes me look more masculine I think but it's worth noting and possibly seeing if anyone else has had this occur?

 

[Mystere3]

You weigh like 10 lb less than your on cycle so you're clearly not bigger. As far as strength, you don't necessarily lose it that quickly as the muscle you gained on cycle obviously makes you stronger.

As far as losing fat, losing 45 lb in 6 weeks isn't practical. If you lost that much weight quickly in the past the majority of it was likely water and the remainder was likely muscle. The most weight you'd be able to lose while maintaining a good amount of muscle mass is about 2 lb a week. 8 lb per week for 6 weeks isn't achievable even with DNP unless the majority of what you're losing is muscle.

 

[Psikiguy]

You weigh like 10 lb less than your on cycle so you're clearly not bigger. As far as strength, you don't necessarily lose it that quickly as the muscle you gained on cycle obviously makes you stronger. As far as losing fat, losing 45 lb in 6 weeks isn't practical. If you lost that much weight quickly in the past the majority of it was likely water and the remainder was likely muscle. The most weight you'd be able to lose while maintaining a good amount of muscle mass is about 2 lb a week. 8 lb per week for 6 weeks isn't achievable even with DNP unless the majority of what you're losing is muscle.

My weight on day 36 (two days before the end of my cycle, on 50mg of havoc) was 276. How you got 10 pounds from that is beyond me. My weight fluctuated pretty wildly on cycle, presumably because of water weight. But it stabilized right around where I am now towards the last two weeks of my cycle. I don't typically consume carbohydrates above 40-50g a day. However on cycle I ate much more for the purpose of taking better advantage of my improved workout intensity.

Also, I lost closer to 15 pounds a week when I was very morbidly obese. I'm sure with the shape that you're in you've probably never been as obese I was years ago, but you should know that at that size, pounds can be dropped or gained with minimal effort. A lot of it was water weight, and some of it was muscle, but most of it was fat. I'm setting goals to be 230 by June, but I doubt that at this lower weight I'll have such drastic results. Realistically I feel like I could do it, but as I said for muscle preservation I'll probably go a bit easier. 240 would probably be more reasonable expected end result. It's not like I'm stopping at 240, I'll stop at around 220 (because by then I'll be where I'd like to be)

I'm not claiming to be drastically larger than the end of my cycle. I'm just trying to make it clear that I am in fact noticeably bigger. I've dropped water and leaned out a bit and remained at 276, and not only maintained my strength (although I did have some initial loss in strength the first couple of days) but got even stronger.

 

[Mystere3]

Changing your carb intake is only going to change your water weight and will have no effect on fat loss unless you maintain strict ketosis and even then your fat loss will not necessarily be much higher while you risk muscle atrophy.

Presumably you learned the Harris-Benedict equation in med school that allows you to calculate your BMR. There are adjustments to this that take body fat % into account as fat is not particularly metabolically active, only lean mass.

Using that you can calculate your total daily calorie expenditure. Eating calories below your BMR will result in significant muscle catabolism. If you eat much below this level all you're going to do is lose all your gains from the cycle. Your calories in PCT should be no lower than TDEE as it's an extremely catabolic period. Afterwards having calories at BMR would be ideal for a cut. Going below this is definitely going to result in muscle wasting.

Furthermore, as you decrease caloric intake, your metabolism will slow further as your body adjusts to the low caloric intake by attempting to preserve all fat stores at the expense of muscle.

 

[Psikiguy]

Changing your carb intake is only going to change your water weight and will have no effect on fat loss unless you maintain strict ketosis and even then your fat loss will not necessarily be much higher while you risk muscle atrophy. Presumably you learned the Harris-Benedict equation in med school that allows you to calculate your BMR. There are adjustments to this that take body fat % into account as fat is not particularly metabolically active, only lean mass. Using that you can calculate your total daily calorie expenditure. Eating calories below your BMR will result in significant muscle catabolism. If you eat much below this level all you're going to do is lose all your gains from the cycle. Your calories in PCT should be no lower than TDEE as it's an extremely catabolic period. Afterwards having calories at BMR would be ideal for a cut. Going below this is definitely going to result in muscle wasting. Furthermore, as you decrease caloric intake, your metabolism will slow further as your body adjusts to the low caloric intake by attempting to preserve all fat stores at the expense of muscle.

With moderate ketosis I'm always able to lose fat with near maintenance calories. I'm not sure if I've said this before but I am only a first year med student after all, I've only hit the basics. I tend to not use the BMR though, simply because in the past I've witnessed both myself and others gain muscle on a caloric deficit, and lose it on a surplus. In my own experience, although yours may differ, it's a circumventable problem if you're not drastically below maintenance and eat a sufficient amount of protein. I also used (in my weight loss prime) an eating schedule known as intermittent fasting (typical 16/8) that allowed me to gain a lot of muscle while losing over 100 pounds in combination with a ketogenic diet because I still consumed enough calories and protein to maintain my size.

 

[Psikiguy]

Also, I've been able to work out legs again and my legs are rapidly returning to their former glory. A smaller portion of my maintained weight in comparison may be my starting weight may be due to the fact that I started hitting legs mid cycle again.

 

[Mystere3]

IF has been pretty debunked lately, although it will likely work well if you have high bf%. You'll lose both fat and muscle with it, though.

You may very well lose a lot of weight with calories at your BMR if you have a high body weight but if you go below that, your progress will slow and you'll preferentially catabolize muscle over fat.

There are some good articles on t-nation about this.

http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/truth-about-metabolic-damage

 

[RecompMan]

IF has been pretty debunked lately, although it will likely work well if you have high bf%. You'll lose both fat and muscle with it, though. You may very well lose a lot of weight with calories at your BMR if you have a high body weight but if you go below that, your progress will slow and you'll preferentially catabolize muscle over fat. There are some good articles on t-nation about this. http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/truth-about-metabolic-damage

I haven't seen a large reduction as you say in iF style dieting when done proper

 

[Mystere3]

I haven't seen a large reduction as you say in iF style dieting when done proper

http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/intermittent-fasting-kills-muscle

 

[Psikiguy]

Alright guys, definitely gyno. Puffy nipples and pointier chest. Not major I mean I've had breasts for my entire life, I just hope I don't keep them when I'm leaner haha.

Bit of a weird phenomenon. I shrink for a couple of days, then I work out and I look big again. I worked out today and I look bigger than normal again, and I looked smaller than normal before. I'm not complaining about looking bigger, just weird.


Mood has been up and down. Hydroxycut has kept my energy levels up when I was depressed. Personal situations are slowing being mended. I'll be back on my game and on the road to 230 in no time!

 

[Psikiguy]

Also in regards to intermittent fasting; I know that it does cause some catabolism and I'm okay with that. I didn't lose that much muscle when I dropped 100+ pounds with it so I at least know that it works very well for me personally.

 

[RecompMan]

http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/intermittent-fasting-kills-muscle

well aware of the article