Epistane testing results

[RedwolfWV]

Epi/Havoc were tested under the same conditions by Carcinogen.

Maybe we need to get Havoc 3rd party tested.

Maybe MM will be altruistic enough to have it tested for us.

 

[supersoldier]

Maybe MM will be altruistic enough to have it tested for us.

Please feel free to verify the number of tests we have had them run on this product, multiple sources and our 2 competitor products with COC in tact. The only thing odd is that unfortunately last week Ross was out at a reunion which caused delays and now this week Alston is at a conference. All data has been collected and we have viewed the results and know more about what is going on with this issue than you could ever hope to, but until Alston has the official "COC Report" complete, which we are promissed to have by monday at the latest, then and only then will any reports be posted. I will give you a little hint and this you can also confirm with RTP Labs, is that Epi has tested the purest and cleanest of all 3 products that were tested in their lab.

Monday at the latest...

 

[mmowry]

Man Im alll otta rep also.Great job :thumbsup:

 

[supersoldier]

Man Im alll otta rep also.Great job :thumbsup:

Hey bud. :wave:

Look, all the haters are quiet... <<cricket chirps>>

 

[mmowry]

I just wish throughn this whole thing people would quit jumping to conclusions.I got jumped @BB for "supposedly" bringing other products into the fray.Which I didnt but when the tide turns well you know.

Ill just sit back and watch the next chapter unfold."Like sands through the hour glass....so are the days of our lives"

 

[CryingEmo]

soooo... if epi is 270... and havoc is 288... thenn.... havoc is something else?

 

[ShakesAllDay]

soooo... if epi is 270... and havoc is 288... thenn.... havoc is something else?

Possibly.

I still say it's all sugar. MW = 342 FTW! :run:

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I'll talk to another one of the ochem professors tomorrow, she's a dept chair with a pretty impressive background herself (anyone who gets a Ph.D in ochem deserves respect, lol). I won't say anything except here is the structure, here are the two M+ and the mass spec, which looks better and see what she has to say.

 

[mmowry]

BTW IBE great looking labels!

 

[somewhatgifted]

We have invested a large amount of money in the testing and creating this standard to help eliminate the variables for future production. IBE is going to have the only US standard for this compound. This will give us the power to test each batch and each product that comes out thereafter with certainty and none of these variables.
As a matter of fact......here is a peak at the new look of Epistane. IBE New Look and Ads
(it is not quite finished but will be ready and on our re-branded site by next week)

We hope the community can see that we have put a lot of care, time and money into this product and will not let these hidden agendas take the product and IBE down.

I lovin the new look/ labels. super sexy!!

 

[Jayhawkk]

Damn Kwyk, I wish I could rep ya again just for posting a bunch of stuff I still don't understand but you do it with style

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Wow..the photoshop artist IBE used is very impressive.

 

[skull]

so now I guess the question is what is in HAVOC that is not supposed to be there?Hmm-- what other well known subs come out to 288?

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Can't say anything about havoc until we have a 3rd party test on it. Could be legit, too.

Only PA/Carcinogen tested it and no results were posted, so we don't know anything until we see it with our own eyes.

 

[ShakesAllDay]

so now I guess the question is what is in HAVOC that is not supposed to be there?

I think they are all the same, and we just had the biggest circle jerk in the history of message boards.

:frustrate

 

[somewhatgifted]

I think they are all the same, and we just had the biggest circle jerk in the history of message boards.

:frustrate

Shhssssssshhhhhhh or thesinner and chad will be in here with bathtubs of lube and gloves made from cat tongues.

 

[supersoldier]

Shhssssssshhhhhhh or thesinner and chad will be in here with bathtubs of lube and gloves made from cat tongues.

:nono: Not in here too...

 

[1Fast400]

KW, shoot me an email: [email protected] I'll give you PA's email, maybe he can shoot you the test results they did.

 

[jminis]

My guess as to why RPN doesn't make any claims with gyno removal, it's an FTC violation to make the claim. You can't make a claim to prevent, cure or treat a disesase with a nutritional supplement.

I understand the legal issues of it I just don't understand why atleast on the boards someone wouldn't hint towards it. Or atleast give a rundown of the chemical and what actions it has in the body and on estrogen. Then people can come to their own conclusion without RPN actually saying it. I guess I'm just a salesman being that my job is just that. You have to work every angle possible.

Either way I"m interested to find out what's going on with Havoc and why it's MW doesn't match that of the chem structure that it supposed to contain.

 

[1Fast400]

Either way I"m interested to find out what's going on with Havoc and why it's MW doesn't match that of the chem structure that it supposed to contain.

I suggest you read bb.com, there is already someone rebutting this. Another person spoke to their chem prof and that person said 288 makes the most sense. At this point, I think we would all agree that these results have proved nothing really.

There is another poster on bb.com, who I has no affiliation with anyone, that is doing testing. He's a month away from having his masters in chemistry. What a crazy subject

 

[kwyckemynd00]

That kids prof didn't see the structure though.

I'll ask another prof tomorrow.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

KW, shoot me an email: [email protected] I'll give you PA's email, maybe he can shoot you the test results they did.

YGM, thx.

 

[neoborn]

As a matter of fact......here is a peak at the new look of Epistane. IBE New Look and Ads
(it is not quite finished but will be ready and on our re-branded site by next week)

Looks f'n kickass IMO!! good job. I am looking forward to everything being laid out and straightforward. Thank you IBE for your product and commitment. Thank you MM / 1Fast to helping them develop a standard and making them show the community how dedicated they are to us all!:head:

 

[neoborn]

That reminds me Mike I need to send you a check!

Be back Monday then.

It's cheque, just so you know:think:

 

[yeahright]

It's cheque, just so you know:think:

Not in the states. We spell it "check" here.

 

[jmh80]

Like what RTP labs said, you have argument that can support 270 and argument that can support 288, but I guarantee there will be no argument that can support the multiple peaks and other "garbage" that lies somewhere there in between.

I called RTP today and I asked that question and got that same answer.
I didn't hear (nor ask - it was early) about multiple peaks on other products. But - I admittedly didn't ask.


They did say they are in contact with someone in Rhode Island that will (hopefully) be making a 100% standard of this.

 

[neoborn]

Hey bud. :wave:

Look, all the haters are quiet... <<cricket chirps>>

You made me LOL good:icon_lol: :woohoo:

 

[jmh80]

You know it balls down to he said, she said then ....

Remind me not to send you pics of Jmh80 in his bikini's again.
Freudian slip.... :icon_lol:

 

[neoborn]

I think they are all the same, and we just had the biggest circle jerk in the history of message boards.

:frustrate

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

Dood PM meee I sooooo wanna rep you until the end of time for that......nothing truer could be said izza:

 

[neoborn]

Seriously ffs .....sh!t and I just thought teh kwyckmeister was just some seriously sexy b!tch with mmmmmm ice cream.....what a let down!:gas:

 

[jcam222]

You're rusty on your ochem, my friend

MW of epistane is 321.

At the 17th Carbon, oriented axially, there is an alcohol functional group -OH. During mass spectroscopy the -OH pretty much always leaves and takes a proton with it. That's -18 AMU from the total MW of 321. That would be the first thing to go, period.

That leaves 303 AMU remaining.

Sulfur, located directly underneath Oxygen on the periodic table (and therefore possessing very similar chemical and physical properties) is also likely to leave (as evidenced by PA's numbers himself, 288 being 321 - 33.) Epistane has an epithio group at 2a,3a. This means that carbons 2 and 3 are bonded to a single sulfur equitorially.

Sulfur has an MW of about 32 and it would strip a proton as well, making the total MW removed 33 AMU.

303 - 33 = 270 AMU for the M+.

To recap,
Epistane contains two functional groups that would likely leave under GC/MS conditions. On is an epithio group and the other is an alcohol. When the alcohol leaves, it takes a proton with it making the total MW loss from the parent molecule 18 AMU. The epithio group would strip a proton with it as well, that takes another 33 away.

So, methyl-epithiostanol = 321. - SH, -H2O = 270.

An M+ of 288 makes little sense. He would have had to leave the -OH functional group on to get that weight, and -OH leaving and stripping a proton (coming off as H2O) is pretty much a given- I guess its "possible" for it to stay on, just very improbably from what I know.

I wont pretend to understand what you just said but I think you just laid the smack on someones ass. At the very least you are trying to participate in an intelligent discussion as opposed to a "borglike" regurgitation of facts people dont really understand.

There are people posting in this thread who posture themselves as though they are speaking for the masses. Hell some of those may have a whole posting history located in this thread!!

I will say there are a few folks on here that would have been banned for clearly stepping outside the guidlines laid out early in the thread if I were a mod but lol maybe I have a short fuse.

I will say this I dont know when its all said and done what the results of any of these companies products will be. But I do know this.........DR.D is a good person, hes a person that has taken the time to help a LOT of us with advice along the way that didnt gain him a dime!! Personally bashing him or anyone else in the thread for that matter should get few of you kids and I do mean kids banned. If you have an opinion express it but take the people out of it.

My advice for what it is worth to all of these companies going forward would be to never enter this dialogue on the boards. Some of them do so because they feel obligated to the community. It is a fine line for sure and I am not suggesting that dangerous things should be covered up. I am simply saying that the behind the scenes BUSINESS of many of these companies is discussed publically far to often. Can you imagine this kind of an open dialogue on the internet between Phizer and Schering?? How about a discussion like this on mechanical defects openly between GM and Chrysler??

LOL never gonna see that.

 

[jcam222]

Why don't you go start a "bash Mike McCandless" thread if that's what you wanna do.

This thread is for figuring out what's in Epistane, and tangentially, what's in Havoc. And at this point, it's looking like Epistane is at most under-dosed. All we can really do is wait until some other more knowledgeable chemists (PA in particular) chime in.

Myself, I'm gonna go take a dump and watch Magnum PI.

Do pot and kettle bring any saying to mind for you?? Im old so perhaps they wont

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Actually even better, shoot me and email [email protected] and we will shoot you the test that RTP labs did.

YGM, too.

 

[somewhatgifted]

Do pot and kettle bring any saying to mind for you?? Im old so perhaps they wont

One of em was a hypocrite.

 

[poopypants]

Very possible. User reports are notoriously unreliable and subject to the power of suggestion.

everyone can look at my log and SEE pictures of my gyno and then look at the picture at left..... hard too see BUT there is still some there.... BARELY. and my epi dosing is covered multiple times throughout so others that want to can mimic and watch the same results......

no power of suggestion here, i would have known if it wasnt working and been upset that it claimed it did as i would never have run a cycle of ANYTHING until my gyno was gone, then saw a chance to do both and took a gamble. lets say i was rollin in the gains AND the losses (of my tities).

as for all the info Kwyke ol' boy your tha man!

id love to see the 3rd parties on havoc and what your pro has to say bout them too! wow.

n mm can you quit hittin on me allready im shy! comeon man ive only been forthwith in stating facts in this thread and not bashing you directly, do you realize how you make yourself look by beatin a dead horse? i allready thanked you for the results. so all i have left to say is i still feel you have an agenda in all this but its not playin out to your favor, or maybe im just WRONG. either way im entitled to that opinion without you callin me stupid for it. everyone who knows me here knows that im far from it, your not convincin anyone. thanks again.

 

[poopypants]

oh and kick ass labels there IBE!!!! cant wait to have that purdy lil bottle sittin on my shelf.... n i never thought of tryin x-force before as im fairly lean but thats one enticing design you got yourself there! :thumbsup:

 

[poopypants]

Shhssssssshhhhhhh or thesinner and chad will be in here with bathtubs of lube and gloves made from cat tongues.

LOL uuhhhh ya them shenanigins are best for tha other threads.... LOL damn yo funny.

 

[Alpine]

This whole thing is just sad. NOBODY is acting like a real professional. You guys are making a mockery of the entire industry. We have credible "authorities" on both sides completely disagreeing. In the end, you all lose credibility with the customers. Who are we supposed to believe?

 

[yeahright]

oh and kick ass labels there IBE!!!! cant wait to have that purdy lil bottle sittin on my shelf.... n i never thought of tryin x-force before as im fairly lean but thats one enticing design you got yourself there! :thumbsup:

X-Force has a nice mood elevating effect.

 

[poopypants]

X-Force has a nice mood elevating effect.

any way to make that into a form this thread can take??? :icon_lol: sorry im tired.

is it really stimmy? thats the thing i dont like as im very susceptable to shakes and over energy as i got plenty produced by my own body.... friggin ecto.

 

[poopypants]

stim X is the only thing that i could handle as it was smooth on and off, but no more then one in the morn or im up 24 straight.

 

[yeahright]

any way to make that into a form this thread can take??? :icon_lol: sorry im tired.

is it really stimmy? thats the thing i dont like as im very susceptable to shakes and over energy as i got plenty produced by my own body.... friggin ecto.

Everyone is going to be different but for me it's smooth and long lasting.

 

[Formula94]

Besides the dosing issue I'm still thinking that the MW of 288 and 270 means something here. I have a hard time understanding how these supplements are the same only because they are not producing the same effects. I haven't read any logs where people are reporting the gyno reversing effects from havoc. Obvioulsy something is different here and the MW's show that. If it walk like a duck and talks like a duck it's a duck folks. I'm not taking sides but facts are facts. Which supp is doing what it's designed for and which isn't.

I wonder if it could be due to the dosing of Epi??? IF Epi is underdosed, perhaps you loose the gyno busting superpower at a higher dose.

 

[poopypants]

I wonder if it could be due to the dosing of Epi??? IF Epi is underdosed, perhaps you loose the gyno busting superpower at a higher dose.

doubt it, people are seeing/feeling (loos of pain) effects as low as the supposed 20mg and also @ the 40mg - 50mg doses ED.... still a large diff in multiple peeps, doubt more will be a bad thing in the benifits side..... who knows bout the others though as many exp back pumps @ 40 and 50 as well.

 

[Nabeshin]

Do pot and kettle bring any saying to mind for you?? Im old so perhaps they wont

The day I care about your opinion of me I will have a tag on my toe.

For the last time, all I ever did was ask for an answer to a legitimate concern I had about stuff that I was putting in my body. I didn't get it, and coupled with other facets of IBE's behavior, it has completely soured me to them. If that's wrong, then I don't want to be right. I'll just be The Badguy then.

So please, save the pontification on my character for another thread. I want this one to be about the numbers --- the facts, if you will.

 

[mmowry]

The day I care about your opinion of me I will have a tag on my toe.

For the last time, all I ever did was ask for an answer to a legitimate concern I had about stuff that I was putting in my body. I didn't get it, and coupled with other facets of IBE's behavior, it has completely soured me to them. If that's wrong, then I don't want to be right. I'll just be The Badguy then.

So please, save the pontification on my character for another thread. I want this one to be about the numbers --- the facts, if you will.

Its not necessarily about your questions but your lack of manners,arrogant demeaner and delivery have alot to be desired thats all.

 

[skull]

this is a little off subject but I keep hearing EPI getting refferd to being some kind of[ DMT-2EN]derivitive [pheraplex]?- "D"said it I think page 17 --and BK said it made from DMT on BB. com --so how close is it to the orignal PHERAPLEX?--only difference is the anti E properties? Anyone remember if it ever got tested?

 

[virtualcyber]

I suppose now the question is: which Molecular weight is the compound supposed to be?

PA and carcinogen says 288.
kwyckemynd00 says 270.

My beef with kwyckemynd00's information is that he is quoting anonymous professors to support his assertion that the OH is supposed to go away during MS.

WHO are these professors that are being relied upon as authority?

Since professors are public figures, kwyckemynd00 shouldn't have trouble providing us with their names?

I am being very skeptical here -- I don't believe OH is supposed to leave the structure at all.

 

[carcinogen]

Okay. Here is the skinny, and a recap.

Epistane
Molecular Weight 320
- Forgive me for saying 321 before; I added it up and its 320. Organic compounds do not have molecular weights of odd numbers unless there is an odd number of Nitrogens present, period. When you add the MW you do not include averaged masses like you see on the periodic table.

Volatile Functional Groups in epistane:
- An alcohol
- An epithio

Alcohol leaving under Mass Spec conditions: (edited for poor choice of words: Alcohol's aren't great "leaving groups", especially in basic conditions. They can leave very well under acidic conditions though, and in MS, they take off.)
For reasons that don't need explanation, alcohol loves to leave under MS conditions. That means, it readily leaves the parent molecule it is a substituent of will yield a lower M+ than would be expected.

Tertiary alcohols, like Epistane, actually leave wonderfully because 1) the added electron density from the extra carbons allows it to do so, and
2) a tertiary carbocation is a very stable carbocation.

Okay, so here it goes:

The Molecular Weight (MW) of epistane is 320. During GC/MS volatile functional groups like thoils, epithios, alcohols, epoxides, etc come off of the parent molecule. This gives us a different molecular ion (M+) in the mass spec than what we'd expect.

The M+ we recieved was 270 from the lab results, thanks MM.

If you subtract the molecular weight of these two volatile substances, plus the hydrogen they would have taken with them, you get this:

Epistane = 320
Alcohol = 17
Hydrogen = 1
Sulfur = 32

320 - 17 -1 - 32 = 270, the M+ we observed in the results.

Now, in order to make the number of 270 much more than a big coincidence, we need a good bit of evidence that sulfur is in that molecule.

Well, a very simple way to do this with pretty good accuracy given the compound we're dealing with and the data we have is needed. A good way to know we're heading in the right direction is to look for sulfur. How do we do this with what we have? LOOK AT THE MASS SPEC FOR A PEAK AT 32! I'm embarrassed to say I overlooked that yesterday.

So, you look at the mass spec. Tell me, do you see a peak at about 32? I do. And its in pretty high abundance, too.

Also, look at the peak around the 17-18 region on the mass spec. you can't get that peak with anything but water given the molecules in Epistane. The alcohol comes off, period.

O+H= 17
O+H+H=18

I took this to my professor / founding professor of my universities chem/biochem departments, who is a greater organic chemist than anybody in this industry could ever pretend to be with WAAAAAAY more experience in synthetic organic chemistry, not to mention results.

My professor / founding professor of the Chem Department of my school, Ph.D in Organic Chemistry (35 years active in synthetic Organic Chem synthesizing original compounds with immense complexity for great institutions, including post doc work at CalTech) also shot down the idea that a tertiary alcohol would be less likely to leave the molecule during mass spec. He said it was rubbish.

I showed him the compound, epistane, and the two M+ numbers (270 and 288) and didn't even hesitate to say that 270 would be the one he would expect to see because "that alcohol is coming off". He said it was an extremely volatile substance and he would expect that both the sulfur and the alcohol would come off to yield 270.

He also pointed out the (very obvious) fact that I should be looking for a peak in the mass spec at 32 for sulfur. What do you know, its there! (See attachment).

Methylated androgens are different. They dont dehydrate in the injection port.

He is correct when he talks about defragmentation in to MS. Show him structures of Superdrol, M1T etc and ask him what he would expect. You will not see dehydration from the injection port. That is where the differences between him and I lie. We are not talking about the same thing.

 

[ShakesAllDay]

Methylated androgens are different. They dont dehydrate in the injection port.

He is correct when he talks about defragmentation in to MS. Show him structures of Superdrol, M1T etc and ask him what he would expect. You will not see dehydration from the injection port. That is where the differences between him and I lie. We are not talking about the same thing.

I would assume the structures of androgens are all different, including the methylated ones. So, why would showing his professor the structure of a different molecule be beneficial?

Are you saying that *this* is what happens with Superdrol and M1T, so it must happen with Epistane?

*"this" meaning what groups leave, what groups stay (no chem)