Epistane testing results

[poopypants]

again with telling us what you cant do.... we aint askin for those emails so save em. thanks for the favor and have fun with the flavor.

 

[1Fast400]

In closing just to clarify something. IBE is using the EXACT same lab I did. They've openly stated this. So if I wasn't able to say that their product was X purity level, then how was IBE able to say that about Havoc? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Odd how those results haven't been posted either. Hmmmmmmmmmm

 

[bioman]

I concur with B5150 on this matter. I've been away for the last few days, otherwise I may have edited out some of the more non-informative postings in this thread..the "So-and-so is a poopyhead" stuff.

I currently see it as impossible to take sides on this matter (not that I really would) if no one has a control sample for Epi. *










* and no, PA is not the final word on every and any compound that is remotely steroidal.

 

[Bionic]

He didn't say purposely.

... I can't save the world from underdosing douche bags. Amazing how it's "ok" they underdosed it because it's working...

I re-tract my apology as, it seems, I was correct

 

[Nabeshin]

You guys are funny. Sadly, I can't post the emails I have, as that would truly start a world of crap. You guys are right. This isn't my battle. I can't save the world from underdosing douche bags. Amazing how it's "ok" they underdosed it because it's working. So funny.

I'm off to flavor bcaa's. Have fun figuring all this out.

Mike, pretty please, with a fvckin' cherry on top, stick around.

 

[1Fast400]

I will be around, but my posts will be about helpful things, not this. I gotta get my accountant to cut a check to bobo. Don't want to cross any lines yet.

 

[carcinogen]

io havent even finished reading this thread but i thought id shed some light on here and show you guys something that cant be refuted.

this was posted by the D on 04-07-2007, 12:55 PM in the ibe is in trouble thread on page 17......




now tell me folks how could he predict mike would come up with a MW of 270 unless it was casue he knows the standard to Epi and tested the same thing and came up with the fact this is correct?


BOTH PA and the lab used TEST as a reference wich has a MW of 288 (not epi and how could they know the MW of epi anyhow if they dont haave a statndard?)and the mg per pill cannot be determined either without the standard, just a comparison if it was EXACTLY like test, sorry this is EPI nNOT TEST

so it goes to show why would the D say 270 first hand and then mikes results show the same unless its EXACTLY what its claimed to be?

i wont post again as if you guys cant read this one post and SEE the truth for yourself let alone the results users like myself have received then ill never convince you. the facts speak for themselves and THANKS Mike (1fast400) for providing the back up to D's claims. i appreciate it and
I told you so.

We didnt use Test as a reference. He might have a standard; but, he doesnt have a GC/MS. He knew the results cause we sent them to IBE.

Basicly what Mike's test shows what we got. There are 3 products that were tested. 2 are the same. The third isnt. Additional tests on the first claim are coming out in their favor. I have described what I did before and why it makes more sense on what Havoc is.

It is very unlikely that a tertiary alcohol will leave. Secondary, maybe. The sulphur leaves in the injection port. Not as a fragment on the MS.

 

[CDB]

Reps to everyone who has actually contributed something useful to the thread. Or at least where possible, some of you I still can't rep because I need to spread more around. Even though things haven't been resolved it's been informative.

 

[Nabeshin]

I don't feel inclined to try to change the minds of anybody here, so pardon me if I don't indulge in any of the attempted petty squabbles aimed at me. I'm just interested in airing the facts and letting the consumer make the decision. The way the numbers look, coupled with IBE's behavior, makes me never want to do business with them again. I frankly don't care what you think about that, so save it.

Argue the numbers. All else is moot to me.

 

[ShakesAllDay]

It is very unlikely that a tertiary alcohol will leave.

"So, you're sayin' there's a chance?"

 

[Nabeshin]

I will be around, but my posts will be about helpful things, not this. I gotta get my accountant to cut a check to bobo. Don't want to cross any lines yet.

I don't know what share of the market I represent, but for the record, if you can somehow go into the business of assuring that I get what I pay for, you'll be getting a sizable chunk of my income. Neither the FDA nor brotelligence strikes me as optimal.

Good luck with primaforce, I've actually been a longtime customer. Kinda ironic that you're taking it over now.

 

[carcinogen]

"So, you're sayin' there's a chance?"

About the same chance as Jessica Alba asking me out on a date.

 

[Minus83]

Here is some fact for you. IBE sent me an PM on this board, trying to make threats. I responded back and then IBE wrote this back to me. You can have a mod check my PM box to verify if you wish:

now its really obvious you are trying to start ****, you say that IBE said that if you ran any more tests they would sue you, and they didnt say that at all, so either you are trying to spin what they said, or you just didnt understand it.

i know the obvious answer, but im gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, and try to explain it.

IBE said you can run any tests you want, its when it comes to slander and libelous statements about their company that they will get lawyers involved.

in the PM, did they not tell you to test it if you wanted to?

seems to me they did.

 

[mmowry]

You quoted this PM

You know you really can save the threats for someone who cares. You and I both know that even with your few million dollars, you CANNOT get the FDA to hurry up and change legislation and then try to pursue action against any company in the research biz unless you want to spend your last million doing so. Besides I will be selling Innovative Research long before you can have your guys package and process any so called case you think you have against me.
You know MM, you revealed your motives now and at least I know where you are coming from, it's all good though. Next time show your colors or proclaim your vestments (ie PrimaForce and SFR), before trying to approach the community with your so called VALIANT efforts. We'll see how it goes for you with your new business venture, I wish you well, REALLY. BTW, did you ever test Havoc/Hemo to see what it really contains? Since you are doing the community so many favors with your overflowing wealth. I would say your money would be better spent actually helping people, like the countless homeless and suffering people in our country. Care to put up a good $250 or more contributing to a good charitable effort?

My point here MM, is you leave me alone and I will leave you alone. YOu really think you saying you tested pre-primaforce protects you? WHen did you post the reults though? Push me and I will push back....I don't care about how much $$$ you sold your last biz for, it's not always about $$$ in the biz and you should have done your homework a little better before stepping on my toes. If I was REALLY selling illegal substances, then I believe we wouldn't be having this conversation...... in case you haven't researched my history. You say you act out of community interest and the truth is that your only interest is $$$ and you want to keep it comin in.

What you overspent in the last year?
Did that Corey Haims comment hit you that hard?

My bad, I will take it back then.......you will be rich forver and ever and ever.

Don't tell me about customer service, I invented true care and service for my customers and have been, long before your days as BN CEO in the making. You do your testing, out of your own curiosity.....it's a free world, you try to bring my company into anymore of your slander, you will be speaking to my attorney.
You don't have to like me....I used to respect you and your company, but now you are no better than BK and the rest of the goones of this business

Then you said this about not quoting other Emails.

You guys are funny. Sadly, I can't post the emails I have, as that would truly start a world of crap. You guys are right. This isn't my battle. I can't save the world from underdosing douche bags. Amazing how it's "ok" they underdosed it because it's working. So funny.

I'm off to flavor bcaa's. Have fun figuring all this out.

Not trying to be a jerk here but what is the difference?

 

[1Fast400]

Not trying to be a jerk here but what is the difference?

Huge, the emails I have are going on between myself and about 5 other people. This topic has been cut forward/backward/sideways. I've seen every possible explanation for every possible outcome. From that I've made my own decision as to who is right and who is wrong. Since those emails are from people who have connections to other companies (not SFR or RPN), I don't think it would be right for me to post them. The conversations are being done in confidence. If they want to discuss the info there, that is their choice.

I don't need to prove anything else. The facts are out there. Those that have the knowledge base know the truth. I can't go through and explain each little thing. Simply because people ignore what is typed and believe what they want, regardless of the truth. When I see people like poopster making ignorant posts, it just confirms that I need to step away. It is proof that regards of if you say 2+2=4, someone will always say it equals 5. Just because they don't understand.

I'm enjoying my new cherry flavored bcaa's right now. New products are my concern. I followed through on what I said I'd do, post the results.

 

[CryingEmo]

Huge, the emails I have are going on between myself and about 5 other people. This topic has been cut forward/backward/sideways. I've seen every possible explanation for every possible outcome. From that I've made my own decision as to who is right and who is wrong. Since those emails are from people who have connections to other companies (not SFR or RPN), I don't think it would be right for me to post them. The conversations are being done in confidence. If they want to discuss the info there, that is their choice.

I don't need to prove anything else. The facts are out there. Those that have the knowledge base know the truth. I can't go through and explain each little thing. Simply because people ignore what is typed and believe what they want, regardless of the truth. When I see people like poopster making ignorant posts, it just confirms that I need to step away. It is proof that regards of if you say 2+2=4, someone will always say it equals 5. Just because they don't understand.

I'm enjoying my new cherry flavored bcaa's right now. New products are my concern. I followed through on what I said I'd do, post the results.

Can I have some free BCAA's? :icon_lol:

 

[macedaddy]

When I see people like poopster making ignorant posts, it just confirms that I need to step away.

IT also shows your integrity (the lack thereof actually) when you continually attack the intelligence of other people! Plus the fact that it shows you to be childish and immature and doesn't back up your argument at ALL!

I think i may have to reconsider my liking of Primal products! you'll get NO money of mine!

 

[jminis]

Besides the dosing issue I'm still thinking that the MW of 288 and 270 means something here. I have a hard time understanding how these supplements are the same only because they are not producing the same effects. I haven't read any logs where people are reporting the gyno reversing effects from havoc. Obvioulsy something is different here and the MW's show that. If it walk like a duck and talks like a duck it's a duck folks. I'm not taking sides but facts are facts. Which supp is doing what it's designed for and which isn't.

 

[Moyer]

Besides the dosing issue I'm still thinking that the MW of 288 and 270 means something here. I have a hard time understanding how these supplements are the same only because they are not producing the same effects. I haven't read any logs where people are reporting the gyno reversing effects from havoc. Obvioulsy something is different here and the MW's show that. If it walk like a duck and talks like a duck it's a duck folks. I'm not taking sides but facts are facts. Which supp is doing what it's designed for and which isn't.

It's been speculated in the past by RPN that the lack of gyno reduction from Havoc is only because they didn't advertise it as a gyno reducer like IBE did w/ Epistane. So naturally, in theory, most of the people looking for gyno reduction chose Epistane. Have there been many cases where Havoc users specifically noted no difference in their gyno?

 

[bioman]

Very possible. User reports are notoriously unreliable and subject to the power of suggestion.

 

[jminis]

It's been speculated in the past by RPN that the lack of gyno reduction from Havoc is only because they didn't advertise it as a gyno reducer like IBE did w/ Epistane. So naturally, in theory, most of the people looking for gyno reduction chose Epistane. Have there been many cases where Havoc users specifically noted no difference in their gyno?

I hear ya but why wasn't it. Why would you leave something like that out. It would only make the product sell more and appeal to a broader market. Doesn't make sense if you ask me. Any possible benefit from a supp is always highlighted and amplified on claims. Never heard of a company downplaying their product when advertising it.

 

[neoborn]

You can hate me, that doesn't bother me.

Neoborn posts like this are not helping anything. -J

ahhhhhhh come on, it was fun

Just so everyone knows I did thank mike on BB and I also repped him for posting the results. <3 Mike cheer up and get some love. It's all fun. It's sad that you complain and moan and ***** and and and but when I join in the drama with you, you cry? Don't stand on the stage if you don't want to perform. I however like to act

You guys all rock and there are some very, very informative and joyful posts. I am glad Mike is not bringing any more of this our way and is going to focus on his "products".

Most of all I would like to say that "they" all have been Kwyckownzored! Tha f'n guy has straightforward down pat, he just f'n pwnzors!

 

[jminis]

I understand Neo but this thread is 8 pages with 3 being of crap. Were trying to keep this organized and informative.

Bump I'm still waiting to hear any response to my above post.

 

[fitnecise]

I hear ya but why wasn't it. Why would you leave something like that out. It would only make the product sell more and appeal to a broader market. Doesn't make sense if you ask me. Any possible benefit from a supp is always highlighted and amplified on claims. Never heard of a company downplaying their product when advertising it.

We leave it out because we feel treating gyno should be left to a physician and not chanced on a compound such as this. We don't want underage attempts to cure pubescent (or other) gyno and IMHO marketing in this way is inappropriate.

 

[Moyer]

I hear ya but why wasn't it. Why would you leave something like that out. It would only make the product sell more and appeal to a broader market. Doesn't make sense if you ask me. Any possible benefit from a supp is always highlighted and amplified on claims. Never heard of a company downplaying their product when advertising it.

Here's the quote from dsade:

"Gyno is a medical condition, and we would not even think about marketing it with that angle. Since it is not emphasized, I don't think a lot of people are discussing this aspect."

EDIT: fitnecise beat me to it.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Read my Havoc log and you'll see one that reported changes in gyno although my gyno was very small.

 

[fitnecise]

All data has been collected and we have viewed the results and know more about what is going on with this issue than you could ever hope to, but until Alston has the official "COC Report" complete, which we are promissed to have by monday at the latest, then and only then will any reports be posted. I will give you a little hint and this you can also confirm with RTP Labs, is that Epi has tested the purest and cleanest of all 3 products that were tested in their lab.

So if they have been tested you can explain the MW issue for us?

 

[supersoldier]

IBE owns.

:goodpost:

:bow28:

 

[1Fast400]

My guess as to why RPN doesn't make any claims with gyno removal, it's an FTC violation to make the claim. You can't make a claim to prevent, cure or treat a disesase with a nutritional supplement.

 

[Nabeshin]

When all this is said and done, I think it is Mike McCandless that owes IBE an apology and all the board members an apology for these actions and false accusations.

We're nowhere near the point of meting out apologies, so stow it. Let's get the facts straightened out first.

 

[fitnecise]

they have been very helpful to clarify the issue with Tested Amount per cap estimate given in the report.

So you have spoken to them and can respond to the issue right now?

 

[1Fast400]

If these guys are doing testing of the material from here on out, then I'm happy. There is nothing IBE could do to go back into the past and change what has happened up to this point. I think everyone agree's the gun got jumped. I mean, should we really have a standard being developed AFTER a product is made? I'm pretty sure IBE will be testing their materials at this point. While I totally disagree with their business ethics (which even THEY admit it was wrong to email distributors bashing another product), they seem to be going in the right direction. As PA stated in the bb.com thread, if they handle this accordingly, nobody will care in 6 months.

 

[RedwolfWV]

I mean, should we really have a standard being developed AFTER a product is made?

Shouldn't this apply to RPN as well?

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Got more info.

Talked to the founding professor of the chemistry department of my school who has synthesized more compounds in his 40yrs as a synthetic organic chemist than the sum of the chemists in this industry multiplied by a huge factor, has been paid to give seminars to some of the greatest schools in the world, worked as a post doc in CalTech, etc, etc, etc.

I'll post up a bit more and an explanation.

He gave me his opinion on the matter--and it didn't take him long, nor did he look confused.

 

[fitnecise]

We hope the community can see that we have put a lot of care, time and money into this product and will not let these hidden agendas take the product and IBE down.

That reminds me Mike I need to send you a check!

Be back Monday then.

 

[1Fast400]

RPN sent their product to PA to have it tested. Matt trusted PA to tell him the product was pure. With the MW of 288, they knew the product was clean. Especially since it had one major peak.

 

[RedwolfWV]

But it has been said by you that there was no standard. So how does your above statment clear RPN?

 

[1Fast400]

But it has been said by you that there was no standard. So how does your above statment clear RPN?

If you have a clear peak and a MW of 288, that is proof that the compound is correct. It's when something outside of 288 comes out that people seem to debate if it is real or not. It looks like KW is getting ready to post a lot of info that may clear that up. To this point, people testing it were under the impression that 288 was the only number you should come up with.

 

[RedwolfWV]

If you have a clear peak and a MW of 288, that is proof that the compound is correct. It's when something outside of 288 comes out that people seem to debate if it is real or not. It looks like KW is getting ready to post a lot of info that may clear that up. To this point, people testing it were under the impression that 288 was the only number you should come up with.

So, if 270 turns out to be a legit MW, it would sure appear that some people owe IBE a HUGE apology.

 

[1Fast400]

Not sure. The one thing I can't figure out and the thing that doesn't make sense, SFR/RPN/IBE's products were all tested under the same method/way but came back with a different result. That is what screws with my head.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Okay. Here is the skinny, and a recap.

Epistane
Molecular Weight 320
- Forgive me for saying 321 before; I added it up and its 320. Organic compounds do not have molecular weights of odd numbers unless there is an odd number of Nitrogens present, period. When you add the MW you do not include averaged masses like you see on the periodic table.

Volatile Functional Groups in epistane:
- An alcohol
- An epithio

Alcohol leaving under Mass Spec conditions: (edited for poor choice of words: Alcohol's aren't great "leaving groups", especially in basic conditions. They can leave very well under acidic conditions though, and in MS, they take off.)
For reasons that don't need explanation, alcohol loves to leave under MS conditions. That means, it readily leaves the parent molecule it is a substituent of will yield a lower M+ than would be expected.

Tertiary alcohols, like Epistane, actually leave wonderfully because 1) the added electron density from the extra carbons allows it to do so, and
2) a tertiary carbocation is a very stable carbocation.

Okay, so here it goes:

The Molecular Weight (MW) of epistane is 320. During GC/MS volatile functional groups like thoils, epithios, alcohols, epoxides, etc come off of the parent molecule. This gives us a different molecular ion (M+) in the mass spec than what we'd expect.

The M+ we recieved was 270 from the lab results, thanks MM.

If you subtract the molecular weight of these two volatile substances, plus the hydrogen they would have taken with them, you get this:

Epistane = 320
Alcohol = 17
Hydrogen = 1
Sulfur = 32

320 - 17 -1 - 32 = 270, the M+ we observed in the results.

Now, in order to make the number of 270 much more than a big coincidence, we need a good bit of evidence that sulfur is in that molecule.

Well, a very simple way to do this with pretty good accuracy given the compound we're dealing with and the data we have is needed. A good way to know we're heading in the right direction is to look for sulfur. How do we do this with what we have? LOOK AT THE MASS SPEC FOR A PEAK AT 32! I'm embarrassed to say I overlooked that yesterday.

So, you look at the mass spec. Tell me, do you see a peak at about 32? I do. And its in pretty high abundance, too.

Also, look at the peak around the 17-18 region on the mass spec. you can't get that peak with anything but water given the molecules in Epistane. The alcohol comes off, period.

O+H= 17
O+H+H=18

I took this to my professor / founding professor of my universities chem/biochem departments, who is a greater organic chemist than anybody in this industry could ever pretend to be with WAAAAAAY more experience in synthetic organic chemistry, not to mention results.

My professor / founding professor of the Chem Department of my school, Ph.D in Organic Chemistry (35 years active in synthetic Organic Chem synthesizing original compounds with immense complexity for great institutions, including post doc work at CalTech) also shot down the idea that a tertiary alcohol would be less likely to leave the molecule during mass spec. He said it was rubbish.

I showed him the compound, epistane, and the two M+ numbers (270 and 288) and didn't even hesitate to say that 270 would be the one he would expect to see because "that alcohol is coming off". He said it was an extremely volatile substance and he would expect that both the sulfur and the alcohol would come off to yield 270.

He also pointed out the (very obvious) fact that I should be looking for a peak in the mass spec at 32 for sulfur. What do you know, its there! (See attachment).

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Obviously I have some reps to spread around before giving it to Kywck again.

 

[ShakesAllDay]

Obviously I have some reps to spread around before giving it to Kywck again.

Ditto.

:head:

 

[rpen22]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to kwyckemynd00 again.

 

[bioman]

Could it be an issue of the material's relative moisture content? ie, two of the sources were dryer than the other or some other relate issue?

I'm chem-tarded so ignore me :wave:

Oops. Missed Kwyck's synopsis. I am still chem-tarded though.

Reps to the K-wycky wick!

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Epi/Havoc were tested under the same conditions by Carcinogen.

Maybe we need to get Havoc 3rd party tested.

 

[supersoldier]

I'm sorry IBE... I'm sorry Dr.D :rant:

:whiner:.

:woohoo:

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Oh, not to mention, look at that mass spec again.

Without the alcohol leaving there is NO WAY you can get the mass spec peak at ~17-18.

All we have in epistane is:
S = 32
C = 12
O = 16
H = 1

O+H = 17
O+H+H = 18

C+3H (can't have 4, it comes off as an ion)= 15

 

[supersoldier]

I can't say when it will finally happen, just that it will happen and IBE will be seriously vindicated before it's over. Those who have pushed lies and spoken dishonestly will be exposed for their true motives as well.

:goodpost:

 

[RedwolfWV]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to kwyckemynd00 again.

Awesome work man. And for getting your Prof. to assist. He certainly has no reason to be bias.