Epistane testing results

[carcinogen]

I would assume the structures of androgens are all different, including the methylated ones. So, why would showing his professor the structure of a different molecule be beneficial?

Are you saying that *this* is what happens with Superdrol and M1T, so it must happen with Epistane?

*"this" meaning what groups leave, what groups stay (no chem)

Deja Vu.

 

[ShakesAllDay]

Deja Vu.

haha I was getting ready to post the same thing. :head:

 

[drunk]

So to sum up everything so far, Havoc and Epistane are 2 different compounds, but we don't know which one is the correct compound. I wish Mike could of tested the new batch of Epistane that was sent to the lab. I would be curious to see if it still comes out at 270 or something else after upgrading their QC.

 

[1Fast400]

Oh I'm still testing it. I'm just keeping it to myself. I do find it SO ironic that IBE says they're going to sue me over posting a lab result because I "compete" with them, yet they're getting ready to post a result of havoc. Hmmmmm

 

[TheCrownedOne]

Curious to see how many fairweather friends we have around

 

[Minus83]

Not in the states. We spell it "check" here.

same with me, and im canadian, lol.

and that extra "U" we put in some of our words "falvoUr" "coloUr" i dont play that sheit.

 

[Minus83]

As a matter of fact......here is a peak at the new look of Epistane. IBE New Look and Ads
(it is not quite finished but will be ready and on our re-branded site by next week)

im just quoting this again but i think these ads are a thing of beauty.

they arent the right size for desktop wallpapers, someone needs to fix that.

and also add hot chicks, then id use it on my desktop and the laptop.

 

[john123131]

same with me, and im canadian, lol.

and that extra "U" we put in some of our words "falvoUr" "coloUr" i dont play that sheit.

hahha..it is cheque..well in Canada ...not that this has annnnnnnything to do with this thread....

 

[poopypants]

Methylated androgens are different. They dont dehydrate in the injection port.

He is correct when he talks about defragmentation in to MS. Show him structures of Superdrol, M1T etc and ask him what he would expect. You will not see dehydration from the injection port. That is where the differences between him and I lie. We are not talking about the same thing.

can i ask you if you guys claim to see multiple peaks that dont align with an all epi compound from havoc and hemo, as IBE's 3rd part tests are said to show?

and if so do you have a viable expination for this? just wondering.

and does M1T and Super have the right number of O and H to make water to be dehyrated? im not familiar with those compounds and even not familiar with ochem, just gen chem.
once again im asking in curiosity and wondering if you can do a break down of what DOES happen to one of those compounds in a GC/MS much like Kwyke did........

and now for arguments sake why dont you think an OCHEM professor wouldnt be familiar with methylated compounds? methylation is used in more then just sports supllementing, as is esterfication. (sorry dunno if its esther or ester, bare with me on that one)

 

[CryingEmo]

So, would it be smart for one to wait for conclusive testing results before one was to embark on a 3-4 week epi or havoc cycle?

 

[carcinogen]

can i ask you if you guys claim to see multiple peaks that dont align with an all epi compound from havoc and hemo, as IBE's 3rd part tests are said to show?

and if so do you have a viable expination for this? just wondering.

and does M1T and Super have the right number of O and H to make water to be dehyrated? im not familiar with those compounds and even not familiar with ochem, just gen chem.
once again im asking in curiosity and wondering if you can do a break down of what DOES happen to one of those compounds in a GC/MS much like Kwyke did........

and now for arguments sake why dont you think an OCHEM professor wouldnt be familiar with methylated compounds? methylation is used in more then just sports supllementing, as is esterfication. (sorry dunno if its esther or ester, bare with me on that one)

There were two peaks that were found in havoc. This probably occurred when the suplhur left in the injection port. It is possible that what we saw was a Delta 2 and a Delta 3 double bond appear. I extracted the active in havoc, refulxed in acetic acid and basicly saw one peak, which matched up with the first peak on the original.

I am not disagreeing with him because he is correct - what I am saying is that dehydration of the C-17 in the injection part with this type of compound is unlikely. But in the mass spec it is very likely.

 

[poopypants]

So, would it be smart for one to wait for conclusive testing results before one was to embark on a 3-4 week epi or havoc cycle?

depending on what you got id wait till at least monday for ALL the tests to come in.

personally if your too antsy then all we have for now to rely on is the logs, go read up and see what both offers then make a decision based upon your accumulated information.

 

[CryingEmo]

I'm actually just waiting to end my test cycle w/ a few weeks of epi/havoc. No rush, just was curious.

 

[carcinogen]

Well the chemists at RTP labs are surely familiar with methylated compounds, I am sure Mike and Matt won't dispute that fact and they definetely say it is a possibility. As we stated earlier, RTP labs has told us there can be an argument for 270 and an argument for 288 at this point, but without a standard it is still variable. The most interesting part of the testing of these many compounds including several sources we explored due to our current/original source not being able to meet the production demands that started skyrocketing for Epi, is that there is only one source that has tested as a clean 99.9% pure compound and that is the source with 270 MW. We even outsourced Epi recently to try meet the demands for production and although the MW tested at the stamped and approved 288, once we looked at the GCMS, it has the same garbage that is going on with our competitor sources so we have decided not to produce any such source compounds and stick with the one we trust, the one that is testing clean with a MW of 270. Now, come monday, what are the guys that are arguing this fact and actually started this whole mess long before the infamous email, going to say about what the test shows. There will be a lot of explaining to do, that is all I can say and Matt if I were you, I would go on vacation.

Is this directed to me or Pearson?
If it was to me, then, I will go to the Bahama's if you are buying.

 

[poopypants]

lol, thanks both ya'll and i cant wait to see the results come back and then let everyone weigh in on those results. REALLY cant wait for a standard so people know what a pure version of this compound really does when run through a GC/MS.

either way i think IBE is doin more then thier fair share to right what might not even BE a problem depending on once this standard is produced and i tip my hat to them on doing all this and upping QC regardless, then taking the measures to show the masses these steps were taken..... you still plannin on making random batch testing avail on a site like you mentioned IBE?

man this is a much more civil thread with the lack of a certain members posts.:donut:

 

[carcinogen]

lol, thanks both ya'll and i cant wait to see the results come back and then let everyone weigh in on those results. REALLY cant wait for a standard so people know what a pure version of this compound really does when run through a GC/MS.

either way i think IBE is doin more then thier fair share to right what might not even BE a problem depending on once this standard is produced and i tip my hat to them on doing all this and upping QC regardless, then taking the measures to show the masses these steps were taken..... you still plannin on making random batch testing avail on a site like you mentioned IBE?

man this is a much more civil thread with the lack of a certain members posts.:donut:

This isnt really my problem and I dont know why I keep answering questions.

 

[friction515]

Sorry havent been around for the drama, I've stepped in quick once or twice just to check it out but didnt have time to post. Anyway everyone who is discussing this at this point seems to know more than me on this particular subject so I don't really have anything to add.

Also It does not seem like anything was cleared up and its all still in the air anyway.

 

[yeahright]

This isnt really my problem and I dont know why I keep answering questions.

No, but your posts are helpful. From what I have observed this whole ball got rolling with PA telling people about the results of the tests you performed. He mentioned them on bulletin boards and then for some unknown reason showed the results to various people at the Arnold....who then started repeating them. IBE then reacted (badly IMHO) with that letter to distributors. From there, this just spun completely out of control.

To the extent that knowledgeable/responsible people can turn the discussion to facts, I think it is helpful. There seem to be only a handful of people actually knowledgeable enough to discuss the science of this and you all seem to be saying things along the same spectrum at this point (270 is possible but not likely, or 270 is likely but 288 is possible). I'd like to see you scientists reconcile this or at least agree to disagree in the way people do when there is no definitive proof either way.

 

[macedaddy]

Also It does not seem like anything was cleared up and its all still in the air anyway.

YEP!

Pretty Much! Although i think IBE was cleared but MM has yet to apologize for his erroneous accusations and PERSONAL attacks on VARIOUS members of this community! (DR. D, IBE, Poopypants, mmowry, etc.......)

 

[1Fast400]

Pretty Much! Although i think IBE was cleared but MM has yet to apologize for his erroneous accusations and PERSONAL attacks on VARIOUS members of this community! (DR. D, IBE, Poopypants, mmowry, etc.......)

I have nothing to apologize for. I still think D is a fraud. I think Poopy has issues with reading comprehension. I'm not going to back off my opinions simply because I bought a company. I disagree with them. I've been attacked numerous times through this and another thread. Yet, I've provided everything I said I would. There is a reason I'm sitting quiet right now. We'll see, come monday, if IBE REALLY wants to posts those results. I think they are getting an education today on how to read their own results (IBE knows what I'm talking about). They have MUCH bigger issues to worry about at this point anyway. They'll find out about that next week.

 

[macedaddy]

disagreeing is ONE thing, making personal attacks is another! THAT is the ethical/moral difference! especially as a business man! if you are unethical in your posts, it shows you may be unethical in your business, thus the reason, i said i wouldn't buy Primal products anymore!

Just contemplate that in the future, Mike! if you are as GREAT a business man as you profess, than you should know better than to bring it to the PERSONAL level! You can have all the money in the world, but if you don't have morals or ethics, you don't really have anything!

 

[1Fast400]

disagreeing is ONE thing, making personal attacks is another! THAT is the ethical/moral difference! especially as a business man! if you are unethical in your posts, it shows you may be unethical in your business, thus the reason, i said i wouldn't buy Primal products anymore!

Guess it is a good thing I own primaforce and not primal then huh? Calling someone an idiot, that I believe is an idiot, is not unethical. You have an ungodly amount of bias. You work for AX. Dr. D works for AX. Dr. D even has a financial STAKE in AX. Dr. D looking bad on the boards is bad for AX. Since I questioned the Dr. D, that isn't a dr, you have been up my ass. I'm sure kevin has sent you on this great mission to help out AX. However, I knew all the above, so I understand why you're attacking me. To hear you preach to me about being unethical, just makes me laugh. Given everything D and IBE have done, yet you point the finger at me, to funny. Tell Kevin I said hi.

Just contemplate that in the future, Mike! if you are as GREAT a business man as you profess, than you should know better than to bring it to the PERSONAL level! You can have all the money in the world, but if you don't have morals or ethics, you don't really have anything!

Yeah I don't have moral or ethics, you got me. I called someone stupid that I felt was stupid. Gee heaven forbid someone in society have an opinion and be willing to defend it. Poopy might be a good guy, I have no idea. I simply know the dude is willing to make posts without reading stuff that has already been posted. He asks questions which have already been answered. I take my business personal. It has worked for the past 5 years with amazing success, so I think I'll stick to what I'm doing.

 

[fitnecise]

There will be a lot of explaining to do, that is all I can say and Matt if I were you, I would go on vacation.

If this was directed at Matt (dsade),

If for some reason there is something wrong with Havoc, we will deal with it not run from it, in a way not requiring multiple threads and a month of arguing. You have admitted doubt about your own product and we have no reason to for ours until we see something showing otherwise. Feel free to email us what problems you think Havoc has.

 

[rockhard_4eva]

Methylated androgens are different. They dont dehydrate in the injection port.

He is correct when he talks about defragmentation in to MS. Show him structures of Superdrol, M1T etc and ask him what he would expect. You will not see dehydration from the injection port. That is where the differences between him and I lie. We are not talking about the same thing.

A methylated androgen does not dehydrate in the injection port....I agree, and although i am no prof. I do have a B.Sc. in Organic Chem.

No matter how smart or sexy this prof is, he is wrong!

 

[rockhard_4eva]

YEP!

Pretty Much! Although i think IBE was cleared but MM has yet to apologize for his erroneous accusations and PERSONAL attacks on VARIOUS members of this community! (DR. D, IBE, Poopypants, mmowry, etc.......)

I think the 3-AD is causing an increase in estrogen.

 

[macedaddy]

Guess it is a good thing I own primaforce and not primal then huh? Calling someone an idiot, that I believe is an idiot, is not unethical. You have an ungodly amount of bias. You work for AX. Dr. D works for AX. Dr. D even has a financial STAKE in AX. Dr. D looking bad on the boards is bad for AX. Since I questioned the Dr. D, that isn't a dr, you have been up my ass. I'm sure kevin has sent you on this great mission to help out AX. However, I knew all the above, so I understand why you're attacking me. To hear you preach to me about being unethical, just makes me laugh. Given everything D and IBE have done, yet you point the finger at me, to funny. Tell Kevin I said hi.



Yeah I don't have moral or ethics, you got me. I called someone stupid that I felt was stupid. Gee heaven forbid someone in society have an opinion and be willing to defend it. Poopy might be a good guy, I have no idea. I simply know the dude is willing to make posts without reading stuff that has already been posted. He asks questions which have already been answered. I take my business personal. It has worked for the past 5 years with amazing success, so I think I'll stick to what I'm doing.

Kevin has sent me on no such "mission" to help out AX! AX needs no help! we stand on our own! but atleast everyone knows WHERE i am from and WHAT COMPANY i represent! It is known that you now are an owner of Primaforce (which yes, that is the reference i was intending to make, as they make Primal EAA)! But, what are your other intentions in all this. Mike? maybe YOU should come clean and tell us! I am in this discussion as a CONSUMER! because i have already done a cycle of Havoc, so i am interested in these "discussions"! anything i say in this thread is of my own cognition NOT those of AX or Kevin!

But you have now, once again brought other "personal issues" into play here! your dislike for Dr. D is one thing and you are entitled to an opinion! but logical arguments can and SHOULD be made without calling someone a "stupid doo doo head" (and yes, that is how you sound when you make useless arguments that are NOT based on facts! sorry if i offend you poopypants!)

I point the finger at you, because you have brought this to light, remember? you said that you were doing it because you are a TRUE PIONEER of the industry and you LOVE this industry and don't want it to go to waste! well, admit the real reason you are in this battle. because PA asked you to? because you are involved in SFR? because you are involved with RPN? (now, i know dsade and have the upmost repsect for him! and am not implying ANTYHING against RPN)

BUT JUST COME CLEAN TO YOUR INTENTIONS! because this argument HAS NOTHING to do with Primaforce! and at this moment in time, that is the only thing i see that you have readily admitted having a hand in!

 

[macedaddy]

I think the 3-AD is causing an increase in estrogen.

:rofl:

 

[carcinogen]

A methylated androgen does not dehydrate in the injection port....I agree, and although i am no prof. I do have a B.Sc. in Organic Chem.

No matter how smart or sexy this prof is, he is wrong!

I had to read that over and over to make sure I understood what he was saying. He is saying that it happens in the MS.

The problem lies in the fact that epitstane should not dehydrate in the injection port. Matter of fact 270 is the only weight of significance that is common between the two. It is my opinion, take it for what it is, that these are two entirely different compounds.

 

[rockhard_4eva]

I had to read that over and over to make sure I understood what he was saying. He is saying that it happens in the MS.

The problem lies in the fact that epitstane should not dehydrate in the injection port. Matter of fact 270 is the only weight of significance that is common between the two. It is my opinion, take it for what it is, that these are two entirely different compounds.

I'm starting to think that the 270 is actually more than 1 active. Does this make any sense?

 

[carcinogen]

I'm starting to think that the 270 is actually more than 1 active. Does this make any sense?

270 is obviously the water leaving in the mass spec. The MW shown for Havoc is 288 (in the MS). Epi is 270 (there is no 288). Confusion starts a brewing when people start saying that it is dehydrating in the injection port and that just doesnt happen.

I ran some additional test on havoc to confirm the leaving of sulphur in the injection port (namely, removing to S to get one product). The resulted in one peak at 97-98% of the total area.

I ran different parameters to insure that there wasnt co-elution after I saw the results from RTP. I got the same thing they did. I just took it a step further by doing the above.

 

[1Fast400]

Mace, I'm not going to counter your argument. This board doesn't want to see you and I argue, they want to read about the testing results. If you want to create a different thread, in an offtopic forum (I assume they have one here) I'll gladly engage you on every point you make. I really want this thread to stay on point. Mainly because it's going to get very interesting next week.

 

[biggunther]

The lab just got the bottle from island supplements that was order 3 weeks ago. I assume that to be from the new lot of epistane. I have no idea if the bottle they got this time is from the same lot or not. IBE has no lot numbers on their bottles. I told them to go ahead and test it since they got it. Alston will be out till monday, so I can't post those results till tuesday or so.

We just received that shipment last week so I would assume it is a new lot. I sell IBE and RPN so I am watching this closely.

 

[CDB]

This isnt really my problem and I dont know why I keep answering questions.

You've contributed an opinion, done so civily, and based on the opinion of a lot of people seem to be qualified to do so. That's really the best you can hope for on the internet, so I personally hope you, Kwykie, and everyone else who has actually made this thread worth reading stay around and keep it that way.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Short, simple update:

I saw more data and took it to a professor who does lots of spectroscopy work.

She saw the structure and the data, and did seem a bit perplexed at the differences between havoc/epi/humo, but then said you can run the same test three times and still get different results with GCMS. The data on both the chromatogram and the MS for all three products were suspect, but still explainable.

She said that unless the conditions were soft, she also would expect 370 vs. 388. And, the conditions looked a bit harsh based off of the mass spec. But, she said there is no way she could conclude that and wouldn't put her money on either MW.

She basically said that despite the fact that the GCMS data looks diff, it would be very wise to run the GCMS again on a different machine under different conditions. She suggested running an ESI-MS (I think..it was a few hrs ago when we spoke).
--> She said its very common for MS to be done with two sets of conditions and on different machines because of this problem with GCMS putting out funny stuff.

She also said the alcohol would have come off before it got to the MS if it came off.

And, she wouldn't put a whole lot of weight into the fact that there was a peak at 32, which could be sulfur, because she said that under 30-35 area things get "funny" and can be unreliable.

More data is needed for any conclusions.

I think I'm done with all of this though.

Good luck to all parties.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

A methylated androgen does not dehydrate in the injection port....I agree, and although i am no prof. I do have a B.Sc. in Organic Chem.

No matter how smart or sexy this prof is, he is wrong!

Well, he's synthesized some amazing things. But, as I've learned recently that doesn't make him an expert in all aspects of chemistry.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I would assume the structures of androgens are all different, including the methylated ones. So, why would showing his professor the structure of a different molecule be beneficial?

Are you saying that *this* is what happens with Superdrol and M1T, so it must happen with Epistane?

*"this" meaning what groups leave, what groups stay (no chem)

The structures are different, yes, but not much.

When you see eticholan or androstan, etc in the chemical name, it refers to the same exact 4 ring structure with two methyl groups coming off.

By looking at the structure they can confirm whether or not the alcohol is tertiary, secondary, primary, etc, and look at the functional groups so they know what to expect in the spectroscopy data.

this is 5a-androstane, the backbone of every testosterone derivative ya'll are familiar with when we refer to AAS.

Look up testosterone, dbol, etc's chemical structures, you'll see the similarities.

 

[neoborn]

YEP!

Pretty Much! Although i think IBE was cleared but MM has yet to apologize for his erroneous accusations and PERSONAL attacks on VARIOUS members of this community! (DR. D, IBE, Poopypants, mmowry, neo, etc.......)

Fixed :djparty:

 

[carcinogen]

No, this is not directed to dsade, he has no reason to run. I was referring to carcinagen, sorry I didn't clarify. I already have emailed RPN, but with no response, but it may help to discuss some of the findings, in case dsade was simply relying on the earlier confirmations received from PA. If you have a good email addy, I can forward the specs.

So, you are suggestion that I need to take a vacation because of the storm that is supposedly gonna brew next week? Like I said, I will if you spring for it.

You guys have my data. It matches what RTP got. SO, you have two samples ran on two different instruments by two different people.

 

[Sonicology]

I ran some additional test on havoc to confirm the leaving of sulphur in the injection port (namely, removing to S to get one product). The resulted in one peak at 97-98% of the total area.

This is a little bit off topic but since we've already touched on spelling with the cheque/check thing I thought I'd ask anyway.

I notice you spell sulphur with a ph and not f, yet I'm assuming you're in the US? Are you then part of a small resistance group of old school chemists fighting an underground war against IUPAC and their naming conventions?

 

[rockhard_4eva]

She saw the structure and the data, and did seem a bit perplexed at the differences between havoc/epi/humo, but then said you can run the same test three times and still get different results with GCMS. The data on both the chromatogram and the MS for all three products were suspect, but still explainable.

Agreed, but i would hope that a "certified" lab (certified can mean anything in the US) would give conclusive results. Ideally, all products in question would be submitted at the same time to the same lab for testing.

Maybe we should ask consumer reports if they are willing to test out some steroids for our benefit?

 

[carcinogen]

This is a little bit off topic but since we've already touched on spelling with the cheque/check thing I thought I'd ask anyway.

I notice you spell sulphur with a ph and not f, yet I'm assuming you're in the US? Are you then part of a small resistance group of old school chemists fighting an underground war against IUPAC and their naming conventions?

Old habits die hard, I guess.

 

[carcinogen]

I think it has to do with the fact that you are the chemist that ran the first tests that came into question and even though those tests were never posted, an accountability has to be given not only for the conclusive remarks on Epi but also the conclusion drawn on the results of Havoc.
Don't forget that IBE was being asked on open forums for a refund because PA did not feel it was consitent with what was on the label within less than 24 hours of the email request. I wouldn't think a man such as PA would have to worry so much about a 59.95 refund and there was intent and damage done without even having to post a single result. I could see if he called our 1-800 number and emailed the request and was not contacted at least by that monday (he emailed late thursday evening and posted early Saturday AM). Now PA has openly addressed this and partially apologized to IBE and clarified his findings or lack thereof any conclusive findings, but I think at this point, it should be clear that the chemists doing the intial testing will have to account for any public statement they made and are making in regards to their interpretation of such results.

If I am wrong, than I am wrong. If I am right, then I am right.
That is pretty much all there is to it. I have given reasons why I came to my conclusions. That is it.

Everything else it nothing but red tape to me.

 

[poopypants]

He asks questions which have already been answered. I take my business personal

palease find me askin the same question twice that you didnt use a side stepping answer for or something i asked that you had allready stated as i follow every post and have quite a good memory (plus i go back and read to MAKE sure im not being redundant) then PM them to me. you only have a vendetta against me cause i questioned you. bottom line.

 

[jmh80]

Kwyck,
I asked our chemist at work (B.S. in chem and M.S in industrial chem) in general terms (I really can't take a steroidal structure into work) - and I got a sorta-similar answer.

I'd summarize it as "more data - lab techs screw things up".
(You really think Alston - the prez of RTP - ran this himself??)

Agreed, but i would hope that a "certified" lab (certified can mean anything in the US) would give conclusive results. Ideally, all products in question would be submitted at the same time to the same lab for testing.

Maybe we should ask consumer reports if they are willing to test out some steroids for our benefit?

No offense - but as a practicing chemical engineer for a big-azz petrochemical complex I don't believe sh*t any lab tells me until verified.

I've flared and downgraded too much off-spec product (that wasn't) because our high tech lab screwed something up.

You could have Earnest Rutherford, Neils Bohr, Lavoisier, Lewis and Avogadro operating a lab and I wouldn't believe the data until verified another way.
(Not sure what Bohr would do in an analytical lab :think: - but what the hell, he does have an element named after him....)

But - maybe that's why I got ho's in different area codes - Ohi-ho, Chicag-ho, and Sact-ho. :type:

 

[CryingEmo]

Kwyck,
I asked our chemist at work (B.S. in chem and M.S in industrial chem) in general terms (I really can't take a steroidal structure into work) - and I got a sorta-similar answer.

I'd summarize it as "more data - lab techs screw things up".
(You really think Alston - the prez of RTP - ran this himself??)




No offense - but as a practicing chemical engineer for a big-azz petrochemical complex I don't believe sh*t any lab tells me until verified.

I've flared and downgraded too much off-spec product (that wasn't) because our high tech lab screwed something up.

You could have Earnest Rutherford, Neils Bohr, Lavoisier, Lewis and Avogadro operating a lab and I wouldn't believe the data until verified another way.
(Not sure what Bohr would do in an analytical lab :think: - but what the hell, he does have an element named after him....)

But - maybe that's why I got ho's in different area codes - Ohi-ho, Chicag-ho, and Sact-ho. :type:

What is it with these insanely technical posts which are always concluded with some off the wall rap lyrics.

 

[jmh80]

B*tch - I'm in the middle of ho-where.

 

[jmh80]

Emo,
I was supposed to respond with:
"It's a Canes thing, you wouldn't understand."


Sorry - rap ain't be happenin' again, maing.

 

[Minus83]

So, this is done with then?

this can be locked then i suppose, unless any more allegations are going to be made...

 

[jmh80]

Sounds like more data is on the way next Tuesday (or so).
Not sure this is over.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Sounds like more data is on the way next Tuesday (or so).
Not sure this is over.

I'm pretty sure its not yet.

Nothing, at this point, has been proven other than the fact that both M+ are reasonable.