Epistane testing results

[Jayhawkk]

Whitedevil stay off the ad hominem attacks.

 

[Nabeshin]

This is a quote from D in the other thread that got locked. It's on page 17.

"Let's think about results for a minute. For example, take a compound with a molecular weight of 321 that possesses an episulfide and a hydroxyl function, which are it's two most libel groups in a GC/MS fragmentation. When injected into a testing system (reference my GC/MS tutorial on p.10), what would be the most likely result? The parent less the hydroxyl less the episulfide which would strip a proton with it (320.53-17.01-32.07-1.01=270.45~270) leaving an ion which would resemble the non alcoholic version of DMT (2-ene). Also, imagine that this product is 99+% pure and that the results and logs are stellar by almost all who try it."

Thanks for digging this up.

Now, remember that scene in Pulp Fiction after Butch sliced up the the first hill billy rapist and Marsellus blew the nuts off of the other?

"What now?"

 

[sean taylor]

Whitedevil stay off the ad hominem attacks.

LOL..I am taking an ethics class...

And morals are societal in nature...ethics are more individual in nature.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

For those that wonder about the 288 reference, as PA stated:

yes the results for havoc show that the stuff contains a compuond that has a MW of 288. 288 is the correct MW for the methylepistanol (it desulfurizes in the injection port to give 288)

So the compound starts out with a higher MW, but when it desulfurizes in the injection port, it goes to 288.

Ahhh! He did explicitly state it! That clears up a lot for me.

 

[rpen22]

It just got uncharacteristically quiet over at BB with your arrival Kwycke.

 

[Moyer]

Thanks a lot kwyck. :box:

I was gonna ask what this means for Havoc & Hemaguno, since they had 288 according to PA, but I don't think we can take his word for anything right now.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

It just got uncharacteristically quiet over at BB with your arrival Kwycke.

LOL. I noticed the board shut down.

You know what sucks though? PA and Carcinogen are much more knowledgeable chemists than I am. So, regardless of the fact that I may be right, if they decide to make me look stupid--they can. hahaha.

There is a grad student (Ph.D student, chemistry) over there, whom I believe would be honest about it all, beejis60. He's already confirmed the 270 M+ is legit.

I'm just waiting for PA and Carcinogen to get on and start trashing me, then it'll turn into a km00 gangbang on bb.com.

:duel:

 

[Nabeshin]

So if Epistane has the right stuff --- albeit underdosed --- then what the hell does Havoc have? Even if both products contain the same active, and even if that active is finicky about losing its hydroxyl in GC/MS, why would Havoc consistently yield a MW of 288 and Epistane a MW of 270?

For fvck's sake, what the fvck is in my pills!?

 

[somewhatgifted]

Epi is what is had been since day 1, but some people have shown their chemical makeup in the process, this thread and the others, have only succeded in one thing name calling.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

So if Epistane has the right stuff --- albeit underdosed --- then what the hell does Havoc have? Even if both products contain the same active, and even if that active is finicky about losing its hydroxyl in GC/MS, why would Havoc consistently yield a MW of 288 and Epistane a MW of 270?

For fvck's sake, what the fvck is in my pills!?

Its entirely possible its the same ingredient IIIIFFFFFFFFF, which I don't know, its possible that the Sulfur could leave the parent molecule and the alcohol could stay on, which would give an M+ of 288.

From my "limited" knowledge, it is VERY UNLIKELY that an M+ of 288 would result because the alcohol SHOULD leave.

There are tons of steroids with MW's of 288. Could be one of many things--and still, its STILL possible that you can get a result of 288.

Nothing has been "proved" here, other than epistane WAS NOT disproved.

 

[rugger48]

I just thought Id throw this out there, if anybody has got MD magazine of may 2007 on page 338 there is a page and a half article on havoc and epistane. Pretty informative.

 

[1Fast400]

I can't comment on the chemistry aspect. I've sent PA a link to the bb.com post. What KWY says makes perfect logical sense. That has been the issue and why I've asked, how do you get 270 when others had 288. I simply said I would get the results and post them, I have.

With the MW solved, I'll be curious what is said about the content issue. The lab says that number is within 20% of being accurate. That makes those pills almost 5mg. If that was done, that would allow a company to make twice as many bottles from the same amount of material.

 

[Bionic]

Now, you're accusing them of purposely under-dosing? Will this sh!t never end???

 

[Nabeshin]

All of a sudden, epistane is starting to look like the control, not the variable, at least as far as the MW goes.

Kwyck, chem is for masochists. I'm trying to decode this IUPAC nonsense so I can calculate the theoretical MW for my damn self. Insanity.

 

[1Fast400]

Now, you're accusing them of purposely under-dosing? Will this sh!t never end???

I'm not ACCUSING them of anything. I'm looking at an independent report that says their product has 3.8mg per cap (with an accuracy within 20%). That is looking at the facts in front of me and making a statement. Such that if a cap was to contain 5mg, instead of 10mg, you could double your production.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

From my interpretation of the results, MM has a valid reason to suggest looking into the measured actives. It does clearly say that 3.8mg was recovered and 10mg is claimed.

That, however, IS A VERY MINOR quality control issue in comparison to having the wrong compound altogether.

 

[jminis]

Very interesting turn of events here. Kwyck well done.

 

[Bionic]

Outstanding, Kwyke.

 

[1Fast400]

Luckily my part here is done . I said I'd get the results and post them. I have. In closing (as there is nothing more for me to do at this point), I'd like to tell Neo, poopster and friction to please kiss my white hairy ass. I know we aren't supposed to attack people on here, but you dudes rode my ass for 2 weeks about posting results. I said I'd post them and I did.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Luckily my part here is done . I said I'd get the results and post them. I have. In closing (as there is nothing more for me to do at this point), I'd like to tell Neo, poopster and friction to please kiss my white hairy ass. I know we aren't supposed to attack people on here, but you dudes rode my ass for 2 weeks about posting results. I said I'd post them and I did.

Well, you did what you said you would and that's all that should be expected of you.

If you don't like IBE/Dr.D, that's your prerogative.

 

[Bionic]

So let's agree that the label claim was/is off. What that means to me is that less of the active in Epi is needed to make the same gains as Havoc and you get the gyno reduction that some have claimed eluded them w/Havoc. Oxyguno says that their product is both methylated and non-methylated within their own packaging. It was written off as a simple error for them so why not extend that same courtesy to IBE?

 

[1Fast400]

I don't care for D for a few reasons. None that are huge, but all together just bother me. I don't like the way he misleads, I don't like the ways I've caught him lying and I don't like the way he uses god as protection.

I don't like IBE. Lake is an idiot. By him saying a lot of stupid things, I began to dislike IBE. Yet, this wasn't IBE speaking, it was their rep. What IBE did with the RPN distributor email was truely one of the lowest class things I've ever seen. For that, they deserve a swift kick in the nuts. That is when I began to REALLY dislike them. I'm all about competition, but there are RULES and LAWS to play by. IBE doesn't follow those.

 

[Cordeen]

Wow...what a thread....I wish I didn't fail chemistry in high school....because this is all chinese to me...but in the end, I do hope there's a logical and civilized conclusion to all this because feedback on both products has been positive since day 1!!

 

[bkprice]

Come on Mike, there are several people who know that this was all about marketing and getting your name in lights. You pretended to be a consumer even though you owned a supplement company. Now, your sitting on top but this could easly go down for you, the result back up Dr.D, if you decide to keep going your going to look petty and unprofessional.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 50 (37 members and 13 guests)

Wow...very active thread.

 

[Nabeshin]

Come on Mike, there are several people who know that this was all about marketing and getting your name in lights. You pretended to be a consumer even though you owned a supplement company. Now, your sitting on top but this could easly go down for you, the result back up Dr.D, if you decide to keep going your going to look petty and unprofessional.

Why don't you go start a "bash Mike McCandless" thread if that's what you wanna do.

This thread is for figuring out what's in Epistane, and tangentially, what's in Havoc. And at this point, it's looking like Epistane is at most under-dosed. All we can really do is wait until some other more knowledgeable chemists (PA in particular) chime in.

Myself, I'm gonna go take a dump and watch Magnum PI.

 

[yeahright]

Now, you're accusing them of purposely under-dosing? Will this sh!t never end???

He didn't say purposely.

 

[supersoldier]

We want to keep pushing. We do not appreciate you trying to keep wasting our time, money, and health, not to mention putting a giant political bullseye on the back of the industry in general. We do not trust you anymore, so don't expect us to accept an explanation that requires trusting you. And if you alienate us by shadowboxing around a straight answer to the legitimate concerns we have, then our lack of patronage alone will be enough to bury you.

Don't say you weren't warned.

Originally Posted by juggernaut333
didnt it say within 20%?

how does a lab even get a standard of pure legit stuff to test to?thats an honest question as im wondering?threats,anger,condemnation..how very VERY 'christian' of you.i am sickened by hypocritical 'christian' or other religious bull****ters such as yourself.
so its turn the other cheek,or an eye for an eye,depending on the situation eh?jesus would ***** slap u

in regards to the majority of your post as a whole.

I think a few apologies are in order.

If Dr.D was Jewish than none of you would be shooting that angle on a public message board, without be insta and perma :banned: . I have no idea what makes you think it's okay to attack him like that. It is also clear that you do not know his character in any way to think that he is dishonest, deceitful, or malicious in any way. Now that all the sh!t has settled, I'm assuming your all gonna kiss his ass again. And being the awesome guy that he is, he might even turn the other cheek.

Kwick, you are the man. :cheers: Again, Dr.D already posted the explanation of the 270 MW days ago. Kwick just spelled it out so that simpletons (like me :think could understand. Nonetheless, thanks!

Dr.D​

:bow28:​

 

[supersoldier]

Why don't you go start a "bash Mike McCandless" thread if that's what you wanna do.

If yeahright gives the thumbs up... :run:

 

[Jayhawkk]

If I wasn't already involved with Mullet i'd kiss Kwyk on the lips for speaking in plain English. Not that I still really have a clue but now I can pretend I somewhat have an idea.

 

[Nabeshin]

I think a few apologies are in order.

Yeah, from Dr. D to me, for starters. Never once have I attacked him. I'm just a long time customer who wanted to know that I was getting what I payed for. When I asked, I was essentially given the "got search" answer. That's downright rude.

I refuse to apologize for demanding answers and accountability for the products I buy. Ever.

 

[jomi822]

is there an ETA on that coc report?

Kwyk, amazing breakdown. i didnt quite understand Dr. D's but both make a bit more sense now.

At this point i cannot tell if 1 or both of the companies is playing games with us....or if this is actually just a simple honest mistake.

the questions i want answered are:
1. do havoc and epistane contain the same substance
2. do havoc and epistane both contain a legitamate 10mgs of the substance per capsule
3. why is PA and 1fast getting a MW of 288 and IBE getting 270?
4. who is at fault, or lying
5. are we taking a safe substance

at this point, im sure most of us are more concerned about safety. the gains are obviously there, when all is said and done i hope that IF someone is wrong, they have the integrity to admit it and clear this mess up.

 

[somewhatgifted]

Yeah, from Dr. D to me, for starters. Never once have I attacked him. I'm just a long time customer who wanted to know that I was getting what I payed for. When I asked, I was essentially given the "got search" answer. That's downright rude.

I refuse to apologize for demanding answers and accountability for the products I buy. Ever.

some people just like to argue, being a customer doesnt excuse you from basic ethical behaviour, no one owes you anything. Before you demand anything review the relationship you entered into, then switch roles with the other side of the coin.

 

[somewhatgifted]

the questions i want answered are:
1. do havoc and epistane contain the same substance
2. do havoc and epistane both contain a legitamate 10mgs of the substance per capsule
3. why is PA and 1fast getting a MW of 288 and IBE getting 270?
4. who is at fault, or lying
5. are we taking a safe substance

.

Pa alledgedly got 270 for epi and 288 for the others. i think.

 

[aspire210]

some people just like to argue, being a customer doesnt excuse you from basic ethical behaviour, no one owes you anything. Before you demand anything review the relationship you entered into, then switch roles with the other side of the coin.

I would just like to add that you don't get a COA for your creatine, but demand it for this now? One could easily be contaminated as another.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Pa alledgedly got 270 for epi and 288 for the others. i think.

That still leaves the question, why did he say epi was the one that was off as far as M+ goes?

270 makes more sense as an M+ than 288.

 

[yeahright]

If yeahright gives the thumbs up... :run:

I'd prefer not. I have my own opinions about a lot of this and my own speculation about people's motives. However, nothing good comes from the personality trashing threads. From what I can see, MM did what he said he would do and has even acknowledged that Kwyck might be right in saying that MM's tests prove that Dr.D was right.

You don't have to like people but you do have to be civil to them. That's a courtesy we all practice in meatspace but it's too easy to leave it behind when we enter cyberspace.

 

[1Fast400]

Typiclly, with methylated compounds of this nature, the C-17 alcohol sticks around to show the MW, such as M1T, superdrol, etc. But, when we sold 4-AD, it is more common to see dehydration of this sort (at C-3 and C17).

IBE jumped the gun when they sent that letter.

Bodybuilding.com Forums - View Single Post - Epistane Testing Results

 

[1Fast400]

The lab just got the bottle from island supplements that was order 3 weeks ago. I assume that to be from the new lot of epistane. I have no idea if the bottle they got this time is from the same lot or not. IBE has no lot numbers on their bottles. I told them to go ahead and test it since they got it. Alston will be out till monday, so I can't post those results till tuesday or so.

 

[supersoldier]

I'd prefer not. I have my own opinions about a lot of this and my own speculation about people's motives. However, nothing good comes from the personality trashing threads. From what I can see, MM did what he said he would do and has even acknowledged that Kwyck might be right in saying that MM's tests prove that Dr.D was right.

You don't have to like people but you do have to be civil to them. That's a courtesy we all practice in meatspace but it's too easy to leave it behind when we enter cyberspace.

Okay fine... but I get to make one post with much douchebagery.

Now that Mike owns Primaforce, maybe they can afford to put cotton in the bottles to fill the empty space. I did my own independent lab testing of a few (empty) caps of Elastamine and Cissus 40%, and they were found to have a MW of ZERO and 0.0001% of the label claimed active. :duel:

 

[1Fast400]

Cotton will improve the efficacy of your supplements by 50%.

 

[cmp007]

Alot of jibberish to me here lol. Anyone really clear about the whole epi thing? Is it what it claims to be and a safe working product?

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Bodybuilding.com Forums - View Single Post - Epistane Testing Results

Well, that could be the case. Def. have to look into that. Doesn't mean 270 isn't gonna happen, but then carcinogen did say that they tested two compounds under the same conditions.

Blaaaaah. I have to do some homework soon. Gonna pry myself away from comp in a min.

 

[ShakesAllDay]

Okay fine... but I get to make one post with much douchebagery.

Now that Mike owns Primaforce, maybe they can afford to put cotton in the bottles to fill the empty space. I did my own independent lab testing of a few (empty) caps of Elastamine and Cissus 40%, and they were found to have a MW of ZERO and 0.0001% of the label claimed active. :duel:

BWAHAHAHAH! And do de puts din da cottun!

 

[Nabeshin]

Promulgated:

I refuse to go off on a tangent about the ethics of my conduct. I demanded an explanation for a perceived discrepancy between the Epistane's label and RTD's test results, under threat of a boycott. Let it be known that I will never, ever think that what I did was wrong, and that's my final answer on the matter.

 

[jmh80]

The same way you can calculate the expected MW of dihydrogen monoxide without having any on hand.

Nab - where the f' you been? You come up in herrrrrre talkin' dihydrogen monoxide and sheeeet?

Holy hell - you beees smokin' sumthin'.

 

[Minus83]

Alot of jibberish to me here lol. Anyone really clear about the whole epi thing? Is it what it claims to be and a safe working product?

seems to have always been safe, and it has also always been what they say was in it.

now, the question supposedly is whether or not it is underdosed in comparison to label specifications.

 

[jmh80]

Well, that could be the case. Def. have to look into that. Doesn't mean 270 isn't gonna happen, but then carcinogen did say that they tested two compounds under the same conditions.

Blaaaaah. I have to do some homework soon. Gonna pry myself away from comp in a min.

You hot hunk of man meat.

I need to bring my organic book and notes home tomorrow from the plant. But - I'll talk to some of the chemists at work.
I'm still mulling your other organic question...


Doubt I can squeeze in my bottle of Epi in between testing Reid Vapor Pressure and octane levels.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Well, that could be the case. Def. have to look into that. Doesn't mean 270 isn't gonna happen, but then carcinogen did say that they tested two compounds under the same conditions.

Blaaaaah. I have to do some homework soon. Gonna pry myself away from comp in a min.

Def. gonna talk to the ochem docs around campus now. I actually got stumped pretty good with a really simple concept, the 17b-OH was protected by the 17a-Me, so it didn't leave according to carcinogen.

Makes sense; so I'll have to take the data to school.

 

[Minus83]

Promulgated:

I refuse to go off on a tangent about the ethics of my conduct. I demanded an explanation for a perceived discrepancy between the Epistane's label and RTD's test results, under threat of a boycott. Let it be known that I will never, ever think that what I did was wrong, and that's my final answer on the matter.

this was your response to something Dr. D said, which wasnt even directed at you:

"We want to keep pushing. We do not appreciate you trying to keep wasting our time, money, and health, not to mention putting a giant political bullseye on the back of the industry in general. We do not trust you anymore, so don't expect us to accept an explanation that requires trusting you. And if you alienate us by shadowboxing around a straight answer to the legitimate concerns we have, then our lack of patronage alone will be enough to bury you.

Don't say you weren't warned."

i believe that within the first 1-4 pages Dr.D already said whats was in Epi a while ago, why people ignored that is beyond me.

in fact, i dont recall him talking directly to you in this thread at all, he was speaking to Mike, and you kept defending Him, yet he never said anything back to you.