"Dragon" Machida vs "Sugar" Evans @ AM - the UFC 98 thread

[AE14]

most sites are saying it is shogun who has agree

 

[Jessep76]

Vera and Jardine would be cool. Hell even hammell would be better than shogun. definitely too early for him. Where does he go after he *potentially* loses to Mach?

 

[Rodja]

Can we please stop calling Machida, "Mach?" That's the name of another prominent fighter.

That being said, Shogun has the potential to give Machida some problems. People forget how good Shogun's BJJ is and that his ground game is the reason for beating Arona, Lil Nog, Nak, etc. He doesn't have the huge shot a la Sherk, but he has fantastic takedowns. Hell, he took down Coleman.

 

[Jessep76]

its just lazy typing.

I'd love to see Shogun at his best again. I wouldn't count him out. just seems like he hasn't shown enough yet or fought enough since the UFC conversion.

 

[SpargelJanusz]

I still want to see AM's bigwhiteguy fighting Machida.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I would really like to see Shogun fight another legitimate top five prior to getting a title shot. At this best he certainly has all the tools to frustrate Machida.

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

vera has looked like **** latley. he doesnt deserve a shot. matt hamil doesnt either. shogun i guess jsut so they can build up machida. then hopefully page will beat rashad and get a shot. ortiz huh? hasnt faught in a long time but i would like to see a comeback with him even tho i hate him. a couple top 10 still need to fight eachother before we start brining in hamil and cane.

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

lol thanks but im 235 now stopped all mma training a month ago hahaha getting those summer worksouts going

 

[Rodja]

Banha has some good stand-up, but he looked less than stellar against Cantwell. Shogun, if he expands his camp (e.g. goes to ATT), can tailor his game to give Machida problems. His footwork is much better than Rashad and his overall stand-up is much better. He may lack the one-strike KO power, but he can string together explosive and dynamic combinations (e.g. vs Liddell, Rampage, Arona, Rogerio Nog).

 

[VolcomX311]

I would really like to see Shogun fight another legitimate top five prior to getting a title shot. At this best he certainly has all the tools to frustrate Machida.

Stop duck'n me on Xbox live Mullet. You're above the Tito tactics.

I'm just kidding.

P.S. U-S-A, U-S-A, U-S-A

 

[AE14]

I would love to see the Shogun of old, as that makes for a more exciting fight, however I dont think Shogun has shown enough yet, and if he shows up the way he did for Forrest and Coleman, he will be dispatched quickly

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Stop duck'n me on Xbox live Mullet. You're above the Tito tactics.

I'm just kidding.

P.S. U-S-A, U-S-A, U-S-A

Sorry brohymn, I have been playing Infamous for the PS3 as of late!

 

[Jessep76]

vera has looked like **** latley. he doesnt deserve a shot. matt hamil doesnt either. shogun i guess jsut so they can build up machida. then hopefully page will beat rashad and get a shot. ortiz huh? hasnt faught in a long time but i would like to see a comeback with him even tho i hate him. a couple top 10 still need to fight eachother before we start brining in hamil and cane.

Hamill and Vera are certainly not deserving of a title shot but Shogun isn't anymore deserving than they are for the moment. Granted I can't imagine anyone else whos availible at this time to put him up against either. Bones Jones? haha

 

[SpargelJanusz]

lol thanks but im 235 now stopped all mma training a month ago hahaha getting those summer worksouts going

No prob man, Griffin cuts from up to 235 lbs, too. Btw, does anyone have an idea whether Machida cuts at all? You may remember Houston Alexander walking around at 205, might Machida as well?

 

[0-hero]

All i know is Machida has shredded bigtime since his early UFC days, he was very plump and is now at least 5-8% bodyfat lower.

No doubt Vera doesnt deserve a shot, but he deserves it more than Shogun. So does a whole other plethora of fighters including griffin (who was destroying rashad before the TKO)

Shogun got demolished by griffin, beat a punch drunk, older, out of shape coleman, and KO'd a former great fighter who's chin has been questionable since rampage took him out the 2nd time.

Hes 2-3 fights away imo from being worthy, but far too often fighters get a shot without paying dues.

Bring back Ortiz ffs, i cant stand the bloke, but hes given Machida his best fight and nearly subbed him.

Machida on the floor when hes dry against someone with good BJJ is in trouble imo.

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

i hope shogun gets beat hard. tito is probably so rusty. he has not fought in days and beats up ken shamrock. i think page has a greater chance of beating machida but i have to say i think machida will run through shogun and beat page some how. vera needs to get his **** together and go for those big wins.

 

[Jessep76]

they should just give the title shot to the winner of the Coleman Vs. Bonnar fight. Its makes just as much sense as giving it to shogun.

 

[SpargelJanusz]

Bigwhiteguy, it seems you don't like Shogun that much. Trust me, it won't be easy for Machida. I totally see Shogun having a chance of beating him. No one is invincible.

As for Vera, don't know why he even gets mentioned. I don't think he's a top 5 LHW.

If Machida defends his title, he might have the most impressive resume in this sport ever! together with Fedor. No losses, and wins over opponents as diverse as Evans or Michael "The Black Sniper" McDonald, who was a premier K-1 fighter.

 

[0-hero]

Bigwhiteguy, it seems you don't like Shogun that much. Trust me, it won't be easy for Machida. I totally see Shogun having a chance of beating him. No one is invincible.

As for Vera, don't know why he even gets mentioned. I don't think he's a top 5 LHW.

If Machida defends his title, he might have the most impressive resume in this sport ever! together with Fedor. No losses, and wins over opponents as diverse as Evans or Michael "The Black Sniper" McDonald, who was a premier K-1 fighter.

Seems a few people dont agree with you in this thread.

No one said he was top 5, neither was Serra when he KO'd GSP.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Seems a few people dont agree with you in this thread.

No one said he was top 5, neither was Serra when he KO'd GSP.

Serra was not top five afterwards, IMO, either. He was a product of luck: a flash KO does not magically erase one's record. If Vera somehow flash KO'd Machida, I would not place him in the top five either.

I think Shogun does pose more issues for Machida than some are laying on, but; I would much rather see him fight 1-2 more times prior to having a chance at the title. If not for legitimacy, than for my own desire to see Shogun succeed [he was and is one of my favorite fighters].

 

[0-hero]

Serra was not top five afterwards, IMO, either. He was a product of luck: a flash KO does not magically erase one's record. If Vera somehow flash KO'd Machida, I would not place him in the top five either.

No that was my point, he said Vera was not top 5 so shouldnt see why he was mentioned, basically i was making a point rankings dont always mean the result of a fight.

I think Shogun does pose more issues for Machida than some are laying on, but; I would much rather see him fight 1-2 more times prior to having a chance at the title. If not for legitimacy, than for my own desire to see Shogun succeed [he was and is one of my favorite fighters].

Yeah no doubt he needs to get that 3 round cardio up, let alone 5 rounds.

 

[Jessep76]

I'm with that notion as well. I'd love to see shogun get back on the horse with his health and fitness and there's no reason why he can't. He's still young and I would hope his injuries are clearing up with time. He looked great in Pride. If he came back with one more fight like everyone is saying above then nobody should have any doubt to his deserved title shot.
As for the moment its still too fresh in our minds, the Forrest and Coleman fights, and even with the uninspiring win over coleman you wouldn't think him a major contender.
He needs to wipe that vision of him as the fat kid at the all you can eat breakfast buffet and remind everyone of who he was in Pride. Then he can give Machida a run for his money.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I'm with that notion as well. I'd love to see shogun get back on the horse with his health and fitness and there's no reason why he can't. He's still young and I would hope his injuries are clearing up with time. He looked great in Pride. If he came back with one more fight like everyone is saying above then nobody should have any doubt to his deserved title shot.
As for the moment its still too fresh in our minds, the Forrest and Coleman fights, and even with the uninspiring win over coleman you wouldn't think him a major contender.
He needs to wipe that vision of him as the fat kid at the all you can eat breakfast buffet and remind everyone of who he was in Pride. Then he can give Machida a run for his money.

Exactly. Let's not forget that none too long ago most of us would have considered Shogun the best LHW in the world. If he can return to '05 OWGP form, I think he would pose a lot of trouble for Lyoto.

 

[0-hero]

Same goes for chuck though, him and ninja were considered the very best at 205.

Fighters who dip dont always climb back, lets wait n see.

 

[VolcomX311]

Same goes for chuck though, him and ninja were considered the very best at 205.

Fighters who dip dont always climb back, lets wait n see.

On that similar token, I'm not too hopeful for old favorite Mirco Cro Cop. He took a weighted dip as far as UFC debut's go.

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

hahaha i hope the bonnar and colemen thing was a joke hahahaha im sure it is. shogun will be tough but i think machida will beat him hopefully drag it into later rounds. page vs rashad will be a F'n slugfest!

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Same goes for chuck though, him and ninja were considered the very best at 205.

Fighters who dip dont always climb back, lets wait n see.

Yes, but the difference there is that Chuck had a slow, age-dependent decline also exacerbated by the UFC actually acquiring some talent at 205 - i.e., he is old, and it was bound to happen. Shogun, on the other hand, had an ostensibly drastic drop in training motivation, talent, and athleticism, due by and large to injury - i.e., he is young, and his drop-off was suprising and unlikely, given his PRIDE performances. Prior to his embarassing fight with Forrest, I still considered Shogun to be the LHW # 1. I think the key here is this: Shogun isn't punch-drunk and washed-up, but rather a young, massively talented fighter who can come back!

 

[jas123]

Machida will KO Shogun pretty easily IMO. He may be "dynamic" but his standup is wide open to countering. No one's really come close to taking Machida down so I don't see what's Shogun will do with his way-too-slow attempts. Even if Shogun is better than 2005 Shogun, it really doesn't matter. The game has evolved too much and Machida is at least a year ahead of everyone.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Well, it's hard to say what would occur with 2005 Shogun because this isn't 2005. That being said, I doubt it would be a flashpoint KO, if only because Shogun had/has a pretty killer chin.

About the "year ahead" business, come on: Machida has fought seven times in the UFC, with four of them being UDs, with one sub [on a terrible Sokoudju] and the last two being KOs - hardly the dominant fighter people are making him out to be now. Rashad is the only top five opponent he has fought so far! Beyond that, he only has one other opponent [Thiago] that you could honestly say is top ten. The dude destroyed Rashad Evans so now he is god? I don't buy it. If he destroys 'Page in the same manner, than you certainly have somebody who will agree with you! Until then: not so much.

 

[AE14]

Gotta say I think at this point Machida is far and a wayu the class of 205. No one has come close, and to say thiago isn't top 10 is tough. If he loses to jardine than that will certainly say something. I think Machida is built to beat page. Page hasn't learned to check a leg kick yet, and will get chopped down.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Gotta say I think at this point Machida is far and a wayu the class of 205. No one has come close, and to say thiago isn't top 10 is tough. If he loses to jardine than that will certainly say something. I think Machida is built to beat page. Page hasn't learned to check a leg kick yet, and will get chopped down.

I said Thiago is top ten, dude. I said that was the only other fighter Lyoto has fought that is top ten.

He is certainly an amazing fighter, I am just surprised at the mass coronation ceremony over one fight. And let's be honest: it is over one fight. Not a single person in this forum would have said Lyoto is heads and shoulders above everbody else at 205 prior to that Rashad fight!

No doubt he absolutely, positively fucking broke Rashad Evans; to that, I have no disagreement. I am just a bit hesitant to crown the cat over one fight, considering I did the same thing with GSP who subsequently got KTFO'd in his very next fight.

In terms of 'Page, he will lose if he is still stricken with SSS [Sean Sherk Syndrome] on fight night. If he uses his wrestling, he will be effective.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

And man is it weird to speak in this manner about a division that, no less than 18 months ago, made a case for being the thickest division in any organization [DREAM's LW was stellar as well with Shaolin, Aoki, Alvarez, JZ, and Joachim]. Think back to when Wanderlei and Shogun were signed: Chuck was still reveared, Rashad was up-and-coming, Jardine had not shown his now-characteristic inconsistencies, Forrest was there - it had the possibility for some dream match-ups. Then Shogun sucked, Wanderlei and Chuck got old, Jardine became a one-and-one fighter! Crazy stuff.

 

[VolcomX311]

And man is it weird to speak in this manner about a division that, no less than 18 months ago, made a case for being the thickest division in any organization [DREAM's LW was stellar as well with Shaolin, Aoki, Alvarez, JZ, and Joachim]. Think back to when Wanderlei and Shogun were signed: Chuck was still reveared, Rashad was up-and-coming, Jardine had not shown his now-characteristic inconsistencies, Forrest was there - it had the possibility for some dream match-ups. Then Shogun sucked, Wanderlei and Chuck got old, Jardine became a one-and-one fighter! Crazy stuff.

and I went from almost going to blows with my roommate in arguing about how much of a tool track star Lyoto was, to becoming a quasi-fan of that SOB. Crazy stuff, indeed.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

and I went from almost going to blows with my roommate in arguing about how much of a tool track star Lyoto was, to becoming a quasi-fan of that SOB. Crazy stuff, indeed.

Yeah no kidding, you used to rag on him! To be fair, though: I think you always felt he was talented, but merely thought he was boring.

I have no idea anymore; Jose Canseco in DREAM, Kimbo Slice on TUF, professional wrestlers becoming legitimate MMArtists: who knows what the fuck is going on.

 

[AE14]

I said Thiago is top ten, dude. I said that was the only other fighter Lyoto has fought that is top ten.

He is certainly an amazing fighter, I am just surprised at the mass coronation ceremony over one fight. And let's be honest: it is over one fight. Not a single person in this forum would have said Lyoto is heads and shoulders above everbody else at 205 prior to that Rashad fight!

No doubt he absolutely, positively fucking broke Rashad Evans; to that, I have no disagreement. I am just a bit hesitant to crown the cat over one fight, considering I did the same thing with GSP who subsequently got KTFO'd in his very next fight.

In terms of 'Page, he will lose if he is still stricken with SSS [Sean Sherk Syndrome] on fight night. If he uses his wrestling, he will be effective.

I certainly did misread, thats what I get for responding from the bike at the gym.

I also agree, anyone can be beat, and machida is no different. I just dont see any matchups in the UFC at 205 that I think are overly threatening right now

 

[Jessep76]

All I know is.... (Assuming I'm reading info on him correctly) I liked Machida before I found out he was Brazilian. Not racist! Just fuk man come on. Whats wrong with this country. hahaha
He did hold the Brazilian flag up no?? I thought he was something white'ish and Japanese...

 

[Jessep76]

to clarify a bit more I just was hoping for more selection. I thought a japanese'ish karate master would sound better.

 

[0-hero]

Yes, but the difference there is that Chuck had a slow, age-dependent decline also exacerbated by the UFC actually acquiring some talent at 205 - i.e., he is old, and it was bound to happen. Shogun, on the other hand, had an ostensibly drastic drop in training motivation, talent, and athleticism, due by and large to injury - i.e., he is young, and his drop-off was suprising and unlikely, given his PRIDE performances. Prior to his embarassing fight with Forrest, I still considered Shogun to be the LHW # 1. I think the key here is this: Shogun isn't punch-drunk and washed-up, but rather a young, massively talented fighter who can come back!

Hardly age dependent. Simply he displayed the same skills in his last fight as he did in his first, he didnt evolve no matter how much he told us he did. Thats nothing to do with age, reactions slowing or his body breaking down, thats ignorance at best or stupidity at worst.

Totally agree, prior to griffin, he was right up there for me, but being honest, most people considered chucky unbeatable. He had a granite chin, impossible to take down and when he was no one could keep him there. That loss to page showed the world who had forgotten he could be beaten and more importantly, gave the blue print to destroy him.

His 3 rounds cardio is pathetic, god only knows what his 5 round stamina is like....and he has a few months to prepare for a 5 rounder with Machida.

Too soon man, too soon.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Hardly age dependent. Simply he displayed the same skills in his last fight as he did in his first, he didnt evolve no matter how much he told us he did. Thats nothing to do with age, reactions slowing or his body breaking down, thats ignorance at best or stupidity at worst.

Having the same completely wide-open style his entire career, in addition to the UFC acquiring better fighters certainly exacerbated the situation - but the fact still remains brother: both Chuck's ability to dodge shots and his recuperative ability tanked with age. It is certainly an age-dependent, or at the very least, age-induced decline. In fact, you could claim that his inability to adapt is as much a factor of age as it is stupidity, ignorance, arrogance or whatever you choose to call it.

Totally agree, prior to griffin, he was right up there for me, but being honest, most people considered chucky unbeatable. He had a granite chin, impossible to take down and when he was no one could keep him there. That loss to page showed the world who had forgotten he could be beaten and more importantly, gave the blue print to destroy him.

The thing is, though: the blueprint to beat Chuck was always the same; the UFC merely never brought a fighter in to execute that game-plan for the longest time. For two years Chuck was hand-fed wrestlers with poor striking and a propensity to chase that he could counter and pick apart - never unbeatable, just never fed an opponent that could beat him. The fact 'Page beat him had nothing to do with discovering a magical hole in Chuck's game that nobody knew about: the hole was always the same, and somebody quicker and younger exploited that, where maybe Chuck would have been quicker before.

His 3 rounds cardio is pathetic, god only knows what his 5 round stamina is like....and he has a few months to prepare for a 5 rounder with Machida.

Too soon man, too soon.

Oh, it's brutal. As I said, he was my favorite fighter for some time and, prior coming to the UFC, I would say a more or less consensus # 1 LHW.

 

[0-hero]

Having the same completely wide-open style his entire career, in addition to the UFC acquiring better fighters certainly exacerbated the situation - but the fact still remains brother: both Chuck's ability to dodge shots and his recuperative ability tanked with age. It is certainly an age-dependent, or at the very least, age-induced decline. In fact, you could claim that his inability to adapt is as much a factor of age as it is stupidity, ignorance, arrogance or whatever you choose to call it.

Cool, but i have to disagree, hes never been a shot dodger, his footworks always been awful (he never checks anything) and recuperative ability was overstated. When a counter punched landed clean on chuck he was KO'd reagardless of his age, Page did it in pride then he didnt fight another counter puncher/dirty boxer with power until Randy, then Page, then Jardine, then Rashad. He took some huge bombs against Wandy and Jardine. In his book he reveals his own undoing, everytime hes changed camps hes always gone back to the pit, where "the trainings always the same".


The thing is, though: the blueprint to beat Chuck was always the same; the UFC merely never brought a fighter in to execute that game-plan for the longest time. For two years Chuck was hand-fed wrestlers with poor striking and a propensity to chase that he could counter and pick apart - never unbeatable, just never fed an opponent that could beat him. The fact 'Page beat him had nothing to do with discovering a magical hole in Chuck's game that nobody knew about: the hole was always the same, and somebody quicker and younger exploited that, where maybe Chuck would have been quicker before.

Totally agree, but at that time the competition with Pride was fierce, they tried to buy them out a few times and bring fighters over but pride built huge loyalty from their fighters and they were huge stars in Japan whereas it was still a relatively small sport in the US. Im not sure where this notion of chuck being quick comes from? The only time ive seen any kind of quickness was when he was unble to unload on tito (after an eyepoke lol). That what im saying, the reason for his losses isnt age exclusive, but more down to the fact his style never changed and therefore niether did the route to beating him.


Oh, it's brutal. As I said, he was my favorite fighter for some time and, prior coming to the UFC, I would say a more or less consensus # 1 LHW.

Perhaps in certain circles but i know here in the UK and on many US boards, pride fans were hardcore yes, but outnumbered hugely.

"Nut-huggers" were for both fights and Wandy, id like to have seen them in their prime, when chucks chin wasent battered and Shoguns cardio was second to none.

I miss Pride :dunno: i used to love arguing on boards about who would win, thinking we'd never actually see it. But now we have seen the reality of pride fighters in the cage, its been a let down for fans of the former UFC rivals.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Perhaps in certain circles but i know here in the UK and on many US boards, pride fans were hardcore yes, but outnumbered hugely.

"Nut-huggers" were for both fights and Wandy, id like to have seen them in their prime, when chucks chin wasent battered and Shoguns cardio was second to none.

I miss Pride :dunno: i used to love arguing on boards about who would win, thinking we'd never actually see it. But now we have seen the reality of pride fighters in the cage, its been a let down for fans of the former UFC rivals.

You say above he was KO'd whenever somebody hit him, regardless of age, but further above say, "He had a granite chin". :lick:

Actually, the one decent striking war Chuck engaged in during his tenure was with Vernon White, a fight in which he took several good shots which rocked him; however, he either: a) recuperated from those that rocked him, or; b) shrugged them off. The difference again here is age and abuse: shots like those from Vernon that he either recuperated from or was never rocked from now put him to sleep.

I also never said he was quick, but that the UFC finally brought in somebody quicker in 'Page. As I said, the pathway to beat Chuck has always been the same, but it took two factors to finally exploit that. The first is Chuck's age and declining agility and motivation. The second is bringing in fighter's with a decent stand-up who weren't afraid to trade with Chuck. Certainly age-dependent, but we can agree to disagree!

In terms of the general population, of course they were going to feel Chuck was better. But the general population also thought Kimbo Slice had a chance in MMA, which goes to show their aptitude. Even when Chuck held the title, Shogun was often ranked above him in most P4P estimates!

 

[VolcomX311]

Perhaps in certain circles but i know here in the UK and on many US boards, pride fans were hardcore yes, but outnumbered hugely.

"Nut-huggers" were for both fights and Wandy, id like to have seen them in their prime, when chucks chin wasent battered and Shoguns cardio was second to none.

I miss Pride :dunno: i used to love arguing on boards about who would win, thinking we'd never actually see it. But now we have seen the reality of pride fighters in the cage, its been a let down for fans of the former UFC rivals.

I can't tell you how much I pimped out Cro Cop (Pride in general) to my UFC exclusive fans. I gave Gonzaga up to a lucky shot, but I ran out of excuses with the Check Kongo fight.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I can't tell you how much I pimped out Cro Cop (Pride in general) to my UFC exclusive fans. I gave Gonzaga up to a lucky shot, but I ran out of excuses with the Check Kongo fight.

It is a toss-up for who crushed my heart more: CC or Shogun. The PRIDE-nuthuggery around here was fierce between you, Alexandrovich, Rodja, Jas and I, and, apparently, CNorris was the clairvoyant.

 

[VolcomX311]

It is a toss-up for who crushed my heart more: CC or Shogun. The PRIDE-nuthuggery around here was fierce between you, Alexandrovich, Rodja, Jas and I, and, apparently, CNorris was the clairvoyant.

My tire swing is still set up underneath Mirco's nuts, but I don't use it anymore.

I almost forgot about CNorris!

 

[Mulletsoldier]

My tire swing is still set up underneath Mirco's nuts, but I don't use it anymore.

I almost forgot about CNorris!

You know me: my tentacles are still firmly planted upon GSP's testicles, and always will be!

 

[0-hero]

You say above he was KO'd whenever somebody hit him, regardless of age, but further above say, "He had a granite chin". :lick:

Actually, the one decent striking war Chuck engaged in during his tenure was with Vernon White, a fight in which he took several good shots which rocked him; however, he either: a) recuperated from those that rocked him, or; b) shrugged them off. The difference again here is age and abuse: shots like those from Vernon that he either recuperated from or was never rocked from now put him to sleep.

I also never said he was quick, but that the UFC finally brought in somebody quicker in 'Page. As I said, the pathway to beat Chuck has always been the same, but it took two factors to finally exploit that. The first is Chuck's age and declining agility and motivation. The second is bringing in fighter's with a decent stand-up who weren't afraid to trade with Chuck. Certainly age-dependent, but we can agree to disagree!

In terms of the general population, of course they were going to feel Chuck was better. But the general population also thought Kimbo Slice had a chance in MMA, which goes to show their aptitude. Even when Chuck held the title, Shogun was often ranked above him in most P4P estimates!

LOL come on fella your going over the top a bit there, usually when people do that they know their beat :lick:

I didnt say whenever he was hit lol, implying Buffers lightning fast 180 degree spin in his direction would have put him on the canvas.

Im not really gonna compare the tigers power with pages or shoguns lol and im certainly not going to compare people thinking chuck was top p4p with kimbo having a chance in mma.

p:

 

[0-hero]

You know me: my tentacles are still firmly planted upon GSP's testicles, and always will be!

haha one thing we can agree on

 

[VolcomX311]

You know me: my tentacles are still firmly planted upon GSP's testicles, and always will be!

I still do the tarzan swing off Penn's testicules. The loss to GSP wasn't fun, but GSP is GSP.

 

[jas123]

Well, it's hard to say what would occur with 2005 Shogun because this isn't 2005. That being said, I doubt it would be a flashpoint KO, if only because Shogun had/has a pretty killer chin.

It sure isn't 2005, and that's my point. Shogun's been injured so much since then that he hasn't been able to evolve much since 2005 (arm break, multiple knee injuries) while MMA as a whole has massively evolved. I'd say MMA 3.0 ended in 2006 when we saw a lot of perennial weightclass bosses going down : Chuck, Hughes, Franklin, Wand soon after. Training methods, top fight camps, and well-roundedness have changed dramatically since then, and I don't think that Shogun has kept up. Too many guys have solid technical striking and counters for Shogun to get away with that wide open style.

About the "year ahead" business, come on: Machida has fought seven times in the UFC, with four of them being UDs, with one sub [on a terrible Sokoudju] and the last two being KOs - hardly the dominant fighter people are making him out to be now. Rashad is the only top five opponent he has fought so far! Beyond that, he only has one other opponent [Thiago] that you could honestly say is top ten. The dude destroyed Rashad Evans so now he is god? I don't buy it. If he destroys 'Page in the same manner, than you certainly have somebody who will agree with you! Until then: not so much.

I like that you don't get too caught up in the swings and hype of MMA (too many do, I've seen Mousasi rated #7 pound-for-pound recently), but I see real talent in Machida, and he has completely dominated every opponent that he's had in the UFC. I don't see Rampage having much of a shot either. He's a pretty similar style fighter to Rashad (just a little better), and that style didn't seem to work so well against Machida. Then again, Rashad takes a while to figure out his opponents timing whereas Rampage is much better than this and has better reactions. Still, Machida can leg kick the hell out of him or implement a better version of the Jardine or Forrest gameplan. Also, Machida has more power (or at least lands punches on the button better) than both Jardine and Forrest. He just brutally KO'd two opponents who have never been KO'd.

The Lyoto hype isn't over one fight at all. Maybe on AM, but not in general. Most people picked him to beat Rashad so many at least envisioned this albeit in less brutal fashion. A lot of people have been saying that Lyoto would be tough to beat since before the Tito fight and tried to come up with what type of fighter would be able to keep up with him. As he beat more and more talented guys ( top 10-15 guys like Sok, Tito, Silva), he confirmed our suspicions.

We were definitely PRide fans around here. I guess we over-rated them a little, but I think the rules and venues made it a tougher transition than we envisioned while the sport was rapidly evolving too. Those were the good old days, though.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

At least there were no Hiroshimas in that reply.

I see what you are saying about Shogun 2005: you concede he was dominant and the best in 2005, but are countering that "2005 MMA" is nowhere near "2009 MMA" - therefore, Machida would win based on the evolution of the sport. This being said, his footwork, hand positioning and gap/angle positioning looked better against Chuck than it had in years; I would disagree and say that he has progressed. There is a 4.680% chance Shogun as-such could beat Machida, most definitely.

What I was alluding to, though, was not necessarily Shogun-stylistically in 2005, but rather, training motivation, intensity, tenacity and general killer instinct - and so, I was more alluding to his prior attitude, than his prior style. If he regained his "killer instinct" with natural progressions in footwork, hand positioning and gap control/angles that he seems to have made [marginally, at least] than I think he could pose real problems for Machida.

In respect to wide-open styles, Machida's hand-positioning is as open as it gets, but his Karate-stance provides an awkward challenge for most of his opponents: boxers are tailor-made to lose to him, but a quick kick-boxer/Thai Boxer could certainly give him issues.

In terms of the Lyoto hype, I am speaking about the magnitude of hype, which is certainly over one fight. Prior to this fight there existed an appreciation; afterwards, Lyoto is the most dominant fighter 205 has ever seen, and nobody will beat him - I simply do not buy it! So many reserved and skeptical people have consigned themselves to a multiple-year Machida reign [...the Machida Era, apparently...] because of his decimation of Rashad! I would say a vast amount of people were confused by his style, but: prior to the fight, not you nor I, nor anybody here, would have said, "Well, let's pack it in fuckers, here comes the Machida era". Do you know what I mean?

I am a bit confused by the PRIDE issue as well, if only due to the inconsistency. Several fighters were dominant and title holders [Nog, Anderson [sort of PRIDE], 'Page] while others tanked [Shogun, CC]. I would still love to see PRIDE/DREAM's LW Division imported. Can you imagine the match-ups?