Wife Has COVID-19
- Thread starter GreenMachineX
- Start date
HIT4ME
Well-known member
At this point I think we can put the 90% efficacy claim of the mRNA vaccines to bed. They clearly are not.
Unless someone has updated data suggesting covid has an R0 above 4, the data I have suggests it is between 2.5-4. This means we would have heard immunity at 60-75% of the population being innocculated.
We have 75% of the people inoculated with vaccines + some unvaccinated prior infections I would wager, so by all means we should be at heard immunity and the push for vaccinations should be over. This is true for most of the country.
Vaccines rarely reach more than 50% of our population - that would be a good year for the flu shot.
The MMR shot that we have been mandating in schools since the 1950s (and does have a near 90% efficacy actually) and only needs one course in a lifetime, no boosters, has reached 90% of our population.
Shots that we have been working on for decades, like the flu shot, have an efficacy in the 40% range.
I remember being very doubtful they would even find a vax for covid for a few years in 2020.
Yet in 9 months they found one, tested it, and it had a 90% efficacy....and then they found another and a other? For a novel virus we had never seen. Nothing is impossible...but geez, why don't these people work on the problems we already have if they can do this?
The early Pfizer data was criticized as showing efficacy around 30%...I am not sure more data was released ever...but it seems to be in line with all other rational expectations.
Then we have the death rates, which are higher since we have had the 3 vaccines and continue to rise, with talk of mask mandates slowly surfacing. However you feel about masks, social distancing and hand washing - it was more effective than the vaccines have shown to be by any rational analysis.
Unless someone has updated data suggesting covid has an R0 above 4, the data I have suggests it is between 2.5-4. This means we would have heard immunity at 60-75% of the population being innocculated.
We have 75% of the people inoculated with vaccines + some unvaccinated prior infections I would wager, so by all means we should be at heard immunity and the push for vaccinations should be over. This is true for most of the country.
Vaccines rarely reach more than 50% of our population - that would be a good year for the flu shot.
The MMR shot that we have been mandating in schools since the 1950s (and does have a near 90% efficacy actually) and only needs one course in a lifetime, no boosters, has reached 90% of our population.
Shots that we have been working on for decades, like the flu shot, have an efficacy in the 40% range.
I remember being very doubtful they would even find a vax for covid for a few years in 2020.
Yet in 9 months they found one, tested it, and it had a 90% efficacy....and then they found another and a other? For a novel virus we had never seen. Nothing is impossible...but geez, why don't these people work on the problems we already have if they can do this?
The early Pfizer data was criticized as showing efficacy around 30%...I am not sure more data was released ever...but it seems to be in line with all other rational expectations.
Then we have the death rates, which are higher since we have had the 3 vaccines and continue to rise, with talk of mask mandates slowly surfacing. However you feel about masks, social distancing and hand washing - it was more effective than the vaccines have shown to be by any rational analysis.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
When they say efficacy in all that, are they talking about in preventing infections, preventing death or what else could it be? Unsure what they're measuring...
HIT4ME
Well-known member
I would be willing to debate that line - except we have had more deaths while the population has been vaccinated than prior. To say it prevents deaths is hard to defend unless people are completely unopen to rational discussion about this, which many are not.
Unless you want to claim that Covid suddenly became 3x as deadly in unvaccinated people since others have become vaccinated....at which poi t the ethics of vaccinating yourself become an issue because why should I be allowed to push the burden off of myself if I have something and onto another who does not?
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Wait, I was just wondering what they are claiming as "efficacy".
Dustin07
Legend
There is a lot of discussion of "free floating anxiety" and a study on it's use to capitalize on mass psychoses.
TinFoil Hat: the goal would be massive anxiety in society in order to more easily capture control if their psyche. Anxiety is through the roof regardless of covid infection status, and WA state (Seattle specifically) has been constantly ranked one of the most anxious cities in the nation for the past year while we riot, burn, defund, etc.
I know anxiety is a miserable experience and it's not reasonable to say "just let it go", because it's more like a broken bone that takes time to heal. But tend to your health, I do believe there is a war going on right now for your mind.
Dustin07
Legend
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Two examples of mass psychoses are the American and European witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries and the rise of totalitarianism in the 20th century. During the witch hunts thousands of individuals, mostly women, were killed not for any crimes they committed but because they became the scapegoats of societies gone mad:
Two examples of mass psychoses are the American and European witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries and the rise of totalitarianism in the 20th century. During the witch hunts thousands of individuals, mostly women, were killed not for any crimes they committed but because they became the scapegoats of societies gone mad:
Nodus1
Member
According to this data, a much lower percentage of vaccinated individuals are dying from covid, compared to unvaccinated individuals.
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Dustin07
Legend
@Ricky10 when you guys have patients admitted, so all get tested for covid regardless of vaccination status? One dr was saying last week, I think it was Peter McCullough, that if a patient is admitted to the hospital and says they are vaccinated they are often times not tested for the 'rona while an unvaccinated individual is 100% always tested regardless of why either person came in
Dustin07
Legend
I think those numbers are pretty well accepted here, that best case scenario the vaccine has no side effects and lessons your symptoms when all things go right.
I think the lingering questions are still what percentage of those receiving the vax do have side effects, and what are the long term effects of it.
We have also finally got to a point in society where we recognize that vaccinated individuals have a higher viral load than unvaccinated (per CDC) and are equally too, or more contagious than unvaccinated. again, best case scenario would be that vaccination leads to milder symptoms and less hospitalization.
Listening to a Layne Norton podcast this morning he mentioned how everyone knows a smoker who lived a long and full life smoking a pack a day without issue, despite the health warnings we all heed, but he identified that person as the weird outlier and not normalcy.
It made me think of COVID. Now someone like Ricky sees tons of mortality of course because of his line of work unfortunately but for many of us, the number of people that we see who are actually dying of covid are outliers, realistically speaking.
thebigt
Legend
i am really upset that with the fear that some people have of side effects from vaccines, that they are ostracizing the unvaccinated..can anyone tell me any new treatments that are being developed to save the lives of unvaccinated, or is the ongoing consensus fuckem if they aren't vaccinated, they should have got the jab?
i googled 'what is the treatment for severe covid' all i could find is that the FDA approved remdesivir on october 22, 2020--c'mon man, with all these people dying why hasn't the FDA approved any other treatment in over a fucking year?
i see all the time on social media people saying fuckem they deserve to die if they don't get the jab--is this what we have come to-fuckem?
@Ricky10 i see where harvard health says that the anti-depression drug fluvoxamine is getting good results, but the FDA says there is insufficient evidence to approve it for covid treatment--why not try it and see? it has a long track history of being safe.
you ever hear of using fluxoximine @Ricky10
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Yes, sorry...that wasn't really geared toward you the way it came out ....more the proverbial you or, "one" as in, if one wants to say this or that.
thebigt
Legend
my father in law [RIP] was fond of saying..'who the hell are 'they'. ART was a great guy, really miss him.
thebigt
Legend
kamala harris refuses to blame unvaccinated for the continuing covid pandemic in contrast to biden.
'i don't think this is a time to talk about fault. it's no one's fault that this virus hit our shores or the world..it's more about individual power and responsibility and the decisions that everyone has the choice to make'.
i have to admit i was very pleasantly surprised to hear this from harris.
'i don't think this is a time to talk about fault. it's no one's fault that this virus hit our shores or the world..it's more about individual power and responsibility and the decisions that everyone has the choice to make'.
i have to admit i was very pleasantly surprised to hear this from harris.
Ricky10
Well-known member
I suppose anything is possible around the country, but we test every single person upon admission, and every 4 days subsequent to that for as long as they remain in the hospital. Regardless of vaccination status.
And comparing those potential statistics to unvaccinated patients that overcome a COVID infection but then complain of lingering and long term side effects.
I have seen this vaccinated vs unvaccinated viral load issue mentioned a few times in this thread, but I can’t seem to find where people are getting this from. Per CDC? Does it have anything to do with the study referenced here?
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Yes, I am definitely in a situation where I see the worst of the worst. While some people may be unfazed by reports of over 800,000 total deaths in the US being attributed to COVID (which actually seems inaccurately low to me), there are certainly many more people than that who were critically ill and endured a living hell. Personally, I’d rather be dead than to go through what some survivors have been through.
So to say people dying of COVID are outliers is obviously true. It’s also true that a majority of people won’t be killed in a car accident on any given day on their drive in to work. Does this mean people without prior immunity should abandon or disregard the layers of protection offered from a vaccine or a seatbelt (in the case of a vehicle) that will greatly reduce the likelihood of them finding themselves in the bed of an ICU?
Why are people in most states required under law to wear seat belts….why do we care? And why do people generally not care that it is a law? After all, the force applied to the body by the restraining effect of the belt is considerable and increases the chance of intra-abdominal injuries. So that is a known potential risk of wearing a seat belt.
These aren’t all comments/thoughts directed toward you specifically
No, that is definitely new to me! I looked it up a bit as well, and apparently fluvoxamine isn’t the only SSRI that has been looked at. I will say though, antidepressants aren’t all fun and games themselves, and could be a tough sell to patients regardless
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Ricky10
Well-known member
Oh trust me. Literally everyone we are currently treating in my hospital with COVID PNA is unvaccinated. I keep thinking I will come across at least one that was vaccinated, but it just doesn’t happen these days.
It’s a very sad state of affairs to see so many sick/dying people who would have very likely stayed out of the hospital if they had chosen differently.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
I agree with you that these deaths are not an outlier and that it comes down to a risk/reward analysis.
The issue is we only have the math on one side of the analysis - the other math is kind of a guessing game. But I'm not saying we don't sometimes have to make best guesses either.
As to the quoted part above, I wonder how that squares with the Swiss graph in the link provided by Nodus1:
This graph clearly indicates a potential moral issue with getting vaccinated - why are the unvaccinated suddenly dying at such high rates, well above where they were dying prior to the advent of any vaccine? I mean, if we are to believe the vaccines are 90% effective - then the unvaccinated population is dying at 10-15X the rate prior to vaccinations.
This suggests, possibly, that the vaccinated population are still carrying a heavy viral load - possibly heavier than an unvaccinated person - and are thus more infectious and are essentially wiping out the unvaccinated people like a German with a mustache.
To use your apt seatbelt analogy - if I have a seatbelt and higher chance of surviving an accident - does it make it alright for me to ram my car into others because, well, they should have their seatbelt on as well? (Few analogies are perfect and this question has flaws as well...just pointing out another angle because I like the analogy)
At some point though, the vaccine becomes a vector for genocide if the situation is as being described (which I am skeptical of)
This is sad and may be evidence the vaccine helps those with it - but have you seen any decrease in these patients over the past year? Or are these cases ramping up right now? Because in New England, only 1 out of 4 people is unvaccinated - many of which I would assume are pretty young due to how the vaccines were rolled out - so if you remove 3/4 of the population from the sample, the number of deaths should fall dramatically - unless the death rate increases in the 1/4 remaining.
I know you understand this, and I know you're just recounting what you see in an honest fashion - so these questions are just for more analysis/conversation. Your insight is always helpful.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Ahhhh, yes. I had a girlfriend in college and I would play tennis with her, her father and her little sister on the weekends. One day we were driving past a park that had been rundown and trashed and my girlfriend said, "They should really do something to clean that up."
Her dad said, "Who is they? There is no they."
That stuck with me forever.
Art sounds like a great guy.
Wow, I am shocked that words came out of her mouth that are fairly reasonable.
Kronic
Well-known member
I suppose anything is possible around the country, but we test every single person upon admission, and every 4 days subsequent to that for as long as they remain in the hospital. Regardless of vaccination status.
And comparing those potential statistics to unvaccinated patients that overcome a COVID infection but then complain of lingering and long term side effects.
I have seen this vaccinated vs unvaccinated viral load issue mentioned a few times in this thread, but I can’t seem to find where people are getting this from. Per CDC? Does it have anything to do with the study referenced here?
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Yes, I am definitely in a situation where I see the worst of the worst. While some people may be unfazed by reports of over 800,000 total deaths in the US being attributed to COVID (which actually seems inaccurately low to me), there are certainly many more people than that who were critically ill and endured a living hell. Personally, I’d rather be dead than to go through what some survivors have been through.
So to say people dying of COVID are outliers is obviously true. It’s also true that a majority of people won’t be killed in a car accident on any given day on their drive in to work. Does this mean people without prior immunity should abandon or disregard the layers of protection offered from a vaccine or a seatbelt (in the case of a vehicle) that will greatly reduce the likelihood of them finding themselves in the bed of an ICU?
Why are people in most states required under law to wear seat belts….why do we care? And why do people generally not care that it is a law? After all, the force applied to the body by the restraining effect of the belt is considerable and increases the chance of intra-abdominal injuries. So that is a known potential risk of wearing a seat belt.
These aren’t all comments/thoughts directed toward you specifically
No, that is definitely new to me! I looked it up a bit as well, and apparently fluvoxamine isn’t the only SSRI that has been looked at. I will say though, antidepressants aren’t all fun and games themselves, and could be a tough sell to patients regardless
bpc 157 is the best anti depressant
Dustin07
Legend
I have a buddy that I've recruited to help me find it. I never saw this one above about it being healthcare workers in particular, but I have seen the studies from Israel, Vietnam etc which indicated the viral load of a vaccinated individual was significantly higher.
I swear to you... the CDC did eventually post the same thing. Their website said that a vaccinated individual does appear to display a higher viral load, and thus has the potential to be more contagious. It did also follow up with "however, vaccinated individuals recover much faster", and I think the implication was that while a vaccinated person may be more contagious briefly, they are contagious for a shorter period of time when symptomatic. I have not been able to find the article now in weeks and its making me batty but yeah it was for sure on the cdc website.
Dustin07
Legend
She's the most hated VP in our history working under one of the most hated presidents in our history, My guess is she's trying to play politician finally and figure out how to get her approval rating back up.
Kronic
Well-known member
did you see her freak out on Charlemagne lol. also Hillary is showing up in media now. would not be surprised if they were going for Hillary + Harris with some stupid ass HH logo
rob112
Well-known member
I would still like to know how many of those received early treatment or who got shitty doctors that said “go home and if it gets worse go to the hospital.”
I have no doubt vax vs not vax and no other care vax wins out. It just seems we have some really promising treatments that never properly get compared as if something crazy like powerful people make billions of dollars making vaccines THE option.
rob112
Well-known member
Japan does early treatment right?
Also in case anyone didn’t know the US is by far and away the worst in the world with deaths per 100,000. Like next closest is around half and many others less than that.
Kronic
Well-known member
I think they did use ivermectin. probably tried a lot of things. they probably let their doctors decide per patient like we used to do... anyways I just found out Japan has a new "covid pill" by Shionogi
Kronic
Well-known member
they also require aspirating the vaccines. there's a few other countries that do too, but not us
rob112
Well-known member
I feel like our country has us fighting over efficacy of vaccinated vs not vaccinated instead of the much more interesting IMO of
1. Do we want the precedent of mandates
2. Early treatment vs vaccinated
3. Why were we funding the Wuhan lab? Will anyone be held responsible?
I’m sure there is many more. I’m just trying to make a conscious effort to not get stuck in this false dichotomy very powerful people, likely responsible for this whole thing, gave us to argue around.
One of the easiest ways to control a population is to control the perimeters of the conversation.
We do good here on AM, but much of the world is stuck and I will take responsibility that I fall for the trap at times too. Lucky we still have places like here for real conversations.
1. Do we want the precedent of mandates
2. Early treatment vs vaccinated
3. Why were we funding the Wuhan lab? Will anyone be held responsible?
I’m sure there is many more. I’m just trying to make a conscious effort to not get stuck in this false dichotomy very powerful people, likely responsible for this whole thing, gave us to argue around.
One of the easiest ways to control a population is to control the perimeters of the conversation.
We do good here on AM, but much of the world is stuck and I will take responsibility that I fall for the trap at times too. Lucky we still have places like here for real conversations.
Nodus1
Member
The graph is a 6 month snapshot of death rates of the vaxxed and unvaxxed. Given the seasonal nature of infection and death rates we have observed so far, we would need to compare death rates year over year to get a more informative picture. If death rates were 2/100k in April '20, or 3.7/100k in October '20 then it would mean the unvaxxed aren't dying at a higher rate. Additionally, if it is found that death rates have indeed increased among the unvaccinated, then many factors would need to be analyzed to determine the reason(s). Correlation does not necessarily indicate causation.
Nodus1
Member
These are the three balls we need to keep our eyes on. Practically everything else is just a distraction.
Kronic
Well-known member
this is a weak correlation. the delta variant definitely ruins any chance of this being truly accurate. in hospital intensive care, unvaccinated were definitely dying more. but if we subtract vaccine side effect deaths from unvaccinated covid deaths, is there a net positive? probably a little bit, but we don't know the true vaers data
HIT4ME
Well-known member
This is a great post. Oftentimes, we are too busy arguing over something, when there is a different problem being ignored. Part of the nuance of what I am trying to convey is that it has become "we have so many deaths because of these stupid people not getting vaccinated" and that is a completely ignorant mischaraterization. If vaccination (at least with the current options available) was the answer, it would have already had a higher level of impact - it is not having the impact it should and we should be asking why that is, and maybe some other new questions.
Intelligent response, fair enough. I am saying, "possibly" in my statement and I would say that we can see that as vacination status increased, death rates among the unvaccinated increased dramatically. In January 2021, virtually no one was vaccinated. We are missing basically one month of status from 2020 here, but I would welcome the full chart from 2020 - more data will provide a better comparison as you say. But the death rate in 12/20 wasn't above 10 I would wager - since it was below 1 in January of 2021 - but it is clearly much higher in 12/21 at almost 13.
Further, the data underlying those charts, if you look at tables and sources, highlights a lower impact among the vaccinated than expected.
Now, you're right, the potential that the vaccinated are actually the cause of this increase is only one possibility that should be studied - but it is a very viable possibility since it is one of the largest changes population-wide over the past year. I'm not sure of any other change that 75% of the population made in the last year.
thebigt
Legend
trust me i have no love for kamala, but i try to give credit where it is due...for kamala to go against everything biden and his admin have been saying about the unvaccinated was very refreshing to hear, regardless of her motives i enjoyed hearing someone in the biden admin speak about the unvaccinated without bashing them.
thebigt
Legend
'biden admits his vaccine mandates are unpopular but insists they are for everyone's own good'
in his speech today biden had nothing to say about new treatments to save lives of those who are not vaccinated...i guess he thinks fuckem if they don't do what i say?
i think at the very least biden and his admin should be encouraging the unvaccinated to get early treatment. as of now the treatment for people who test positive is stay home, drink lots of fluid and take tylenol--by the time these people are severe enough to be hospitalized it is too late for many of the treatments that could have saved their lives.
think how many lives could have been saved if they would have gotten early treatment.
in his speech today biden had nothing to say about new treatments to save lives of those who are not vaccinated...i guess he thinks fuckem if they don't do what i say?
i think at the very least biden and his admin should be encouraging the unvaccinated to get early treatment. as of now the treatment for people who test positive is stay home, drink lots of fluid and take tylenol--by the time these people are severe enough to be hospitalized it is too late for many of the treatments that could have saved their lives.
think how many lives could have been saved if they would have gotten early treatment.
jim2509
Well-known member
Well I finally contracted Covid last Wed on the Xmas works night out in Canterbury (UK). Felt crap a few days after put that down to just a hangover having not drank alcohol in ages but come Sunday I started coughing and feeling spaced out. Monday at work was hell and in the afternoon it felt like my lungs were being set on fire...the pain between my shoulder blades was excruciating and by the evening I was coughing up the familiar illuminous looking phelgm of infection. Fatigue and more coughing up crap yesterday and today felt alot better with no temp, hardly any phelgm at all if any...just dull headache, spaced out and a mouth ulcer.
I had my 3rd vaccine end of November. Here in the UK it's being reported within the NHS that 9 out of 10 hospital admissions are unvaccinated...obviously no way of actually telling if true but its accepted the majority are. People shouldn't be threatened or coerced into having a vaccine, it should be a personal choice. But i'll just say from my personal experience over last 4 days makes me glad I did have them, as this **** is weird and in 46 years I haven't experienced the same feeling when ill....the speed and different changing symptoms.
I had my 3rd vaccine end of November. Here in the UK it's being reported within the NHS that 9 out of 10 hospital admissions are unvaccinated...obviously no way of actually telling if true but its accepted the majority are. People shouldn't be threatened or coerced into having a vaccine, it should be a personal choice. But i'll just say from my personal experience over last 4 days makes me glad I did have them, as this **** is weird and in 46 years I haven't experienced the same feeling when ill....the speed and different changing symptoms.
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thebigt
Legend
glad you are feeling better!!!
max silver
Well-known member
Could the answer for this simply boil down to how much risk of death increases with the delta variant compared to the original strain? I see that the changing landscape of the pandemic due to the emergence of new variants has largely been passed over in this discussion. From a quick glance it appears as though the Delta variant is upwards of 130% more likely to lead to death compared to the original strain. This seems to me like it's a much more likely explanation for increased fatality rates at the moment compared to blaming viral shedding rates of the vaccinated members of the population.
Among delta cases, they found a 108 per cent increased risk for hospitalization, 235 per cent increased risk for ICU admission and 133 per cent increased risk for death compared to the original virus strain.
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rob112
Well-known member
Is this an anomaly for a viruses evolution? I thought they were supposed to become less deadly but more infectious as a means of the viruses survival and spread. Which from what we hear on omicron so far matches that, but delta obviously does not. Honestly asking as I don’t know, but I am curious.
rob112
Well-known member
Hell yea go pharma!
thebigt
Legend
as of march 2021 APM Research Lab reports that pacific islander, latino, indigenous and black americans all have a covid-19 death rate of double or more than that of white and asian americans, who experience the lowest age-adjusted rates.
i wonder why minorities aren't pissed at the biden admin for not doing more to save the lives of minorities--along with the lives of ALL AMERICANS.
i wonder why minorities aren't pissed at the biden admin for not doing more to save the lives of minorities--along with the lives of ALL AMERICANS.
mechka_grizli
Well-known member
There is a much more simpler reason behind this than "the biden admin"
jim2509
Well-known member
Cheers mate.
One other symptom to report. After eating dinner last night it felt the whole jaw area and cheek bones were aching like hell all the way up to my head. Like I said the amount of symptoms is odd with this thing.
I hope everyone has a Merry Xmas and good health
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
How many days in are you now? Are you taking supplements like high dose C to assist?Cheers mate.
One other symptom to report. After eating dinner last night it felt the whole jaw area and cheek bones were aching like hell all the way up to my head. Like I said the amount of symptoms is odd with this thing.
I hope everyone has a Merry Xmas and good health
max silver
Well-known member
Come on man the over the top Biden hate is getting ridiculous here. Covid-19 death rates have been much higher for visible minorities throughout the entire pandemic right from the beginning. There are various socio-economic factors at play here that will continue to exist whoever the president of the day happens to be at any present moment. Things like availability of quality healthcare (it's no surprise that lower income Americans receive far worse health care than higher income earners) and exposure rates due to nature of employment (service industry workers like grocery store workers and industrial jobs like packing plant workers have both been hit very hard) are both major factors. Add in the fact that the poorer class of Americans are more likely to live in crowded conditions and also more likely to have chronic health conditions and you have an unfortunate recipe for increased covid-19 fatality rates.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
This may be a factor, but it isn't what the data shows, I don't think. I wouldn't hesitate to have more investigation around it, but here are my thoughts on this angle.
1. It is my understanding that the Covid vaccine vaccinated against the spike protein that the coronavirus uses, not the specific virus. You would think vaccinations of this sort imparted some immunity to like viruses that use the same protein, so these variants would indicate failure of the vaccine in that level. Maybe I am lacking some appropriate piece of info or misunderstanding on this, but this is how it was originally sold to us.
2. If the delta variant was the cause, you would expect to see a sharp increase in the few months after May 2021, when we had lower numbers of vaccinated individuals and the virus had some time to spread and grow. Then, as we saw further increases I'm vaccinations, that bump would come back down.
This is not what any of the charts show...it seems that as we reached heard immunity the death rates, according to those charts, went higher and higher exponentially and never came back to normal.
Unfortunately, you are correct that it is a confounding factor and not as clear cut as being able to compare 350,000 deaths in 330,000,000 Americans who were completely unvaccinated to 375,000 deaths in 83,000,000 unvaccinated Americans in the same timeframe - no study is ever going to be as clear cut and decisive as those numbers right there. It is as almost as controlled and powered as you can get.
Yes, variants are a factor. Also, the vaccine took time to roll out, of course, so it wasn't like we have a clear cut line of one day we have 0 vaccination and the next we had 75%. But the progression seems to be pretty similar....as vaccinations increased, so did deaths rates. And sure - maybe it's correlation and not causation. But just because correlation doesn't always go with causation, doesn't mean it never does.
Sorry to hear this. Glad you seem to be getting by. Hope you recover quickly.
Honestly, if this saved 800,000 American lives I would be all for it. That"s <$45,000 per life just in America. Worldwide brings that number down dramatically. But, they can't seem to support that claim of saving lives in my eyes.