Renew1
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D*mn.
Jiigzz
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Covid is pretty rampant in certain Australian states though. The lockdowns haven't been that effective, so I dont know what you mean by 'virtually no covid'.
The hospitals that are under most pressure are where cases are centralized.
In one article you cited (the Italian opinion piece), 68% of those who died had high blood pressure as one of their only comorbilities. And that is justification for the author to say "their end was near anyway", WTF? High BP is not a death sentence. It is EXTREMELY COMMON. People can live for decades with high BP.
Do you have an English source for the Swedish article?
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Jiigzz
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And the rate of myocarditis hospitalization after vaccination is less than 1 in a million.The CDC does officially recognize the side effects in youth, but nobody acknowledges it:
Clinical Considerations: Myocarditis after COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC
Clinical considerations for myocarditis and pericarditis after receipt of mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines among adolescents and young adults.www.cdc.gov
NIH Does have ivermectin listed as a drug to battle covid, although I can't find the page right now. this is the closest I can find at the moment, which states that yes it does work, however they think the dosage required is too high
Ivermectin | COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines
Review clinical data on the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19.www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov
according to the CDC there have been 576 deaths under the age of 18 tied to COVID
we can assume some of that is totally bogus for obvious reasons, but that 576 represents
.0000122 of all the cases
.000746 of all the COVID deaths in the states
it makes COVID around twice as deadly as the flu in children which is a number that is essentially zero.
for comparrison
that's one death under the age of 18 for every 81,932 cases.
odds of being struck by lightening are 1 in 15,000
How Dangerous is Lightning?
www.weather.gov
So are you saying 1 in 82k DEAD children is better than 1 in 1,000,000 in hospital? Or am I missing something?
rob112
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I don’t think he is saying kids can not take it. I believe it is more of in what scenario can something with such little rate of death be ruled by decree. Especially since it doesn’t stop Covid, have long term testing, or even have a real congressional debate on efficacy or constitutionality. It is a real slippery slope.
I agree with the sentiments of bumping the thread, and the sentiments of starting a new one. Whatever everyone feels better I’m okay with.
I just refuse to go in the Trump for president thread. A bunch of losers in there long ago told me because I believe I have the right to have a gun to protect my family I am for school shootings. I can’t talk to losers who act like that.
Jiigzz
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Majority of vaccines didn't have long term data before being used - if something poses an immediate risk, then you simply don't have time to collect 20 years worth of data. Moreover, the majority of side effects are known within 8 weeks - which has held true for all vaccines to date. And it makes sense, because all a vaccine is *usually* inactivated virus particles or small amounts of live particles and some carriers and nothing which is going to simmer in the body for decades before causing complications.
Even with all that aside, being more 'disgusted' by a 1 in a million chance of something vs a 1 in 82k of something else is just mind boggling to me, especially when the rate of hospitisation in children under 18 who contract covid is about in 10,000.
Regardless of people's views on mandates, how do you justify risking a 1 in 10,000 event vs a 1 in a million event?
rob112
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As you type in the 1 in 82 thousand and the government stepping in you can not figure out why people are upset?
I don’t get how parents let kids eat like **** and not exercise. That doesn’t mean I want the government to tell them what to do. I see how their war on poverty, drugs, and terror went. Tons of wasted tax payer money and death. No thanks. I do not support the criminal class.
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Mixelflick
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I only come here once in a great while, and am saddened by what I just read. Didn't know her, but sure sounds like a gentle, helpful soul and way too young to die. This is the precise reason why I spent the time and money to consult a Dr. about having preventative and acute medications on hand to deal with any COVID issues. It seem to me people have 2 choices...
1.) Take as many preventative supplements/drugs as you deem reasonable (there are MANY, with science to back all of them, and have the heavy hitters on hand to deal with anything more serious OR;
2.) The Govt's plan: Congrats, you're COVID positive! Here's your inhaler and pulse oximeter, come see us again when you turn blue. Not dying fast enough? Here, here's Remdesivir. It doesn't do a damn thing to kill COVID, but it's great for killing you. Renal failure and death soon to follow. And remember, we get reimbursed by the Fed Gov't for every patient we say has COVID, so make sure to bring a friend.
Honestly, who in their right f'n mnd is going to choose option #2?
Oh but wait, the vaccine, the vaccine, the vaccine. All over the news, it saves so many lives. I see a lotta those stories. Wanna know what I don't see? A story about my Dad, who went blind after getting his 2nd Pfizer shot. NO problems with his eyes before that - none. Has been to the best in the world in Boston General a half dozen times, not looking good he'll see again. And he's FAR from the only one, these vaccine casualties are just not being reported and/or minimized.
Yeah that vaccine's great. It doesn't stop you from getting COVID. It doesn't stop you from spreading it. And it doesn't stop you from dying from it. But the spike protein it generates is dynamite at running around your body causing vascular damage, which will ultimately kill or disable you. In less than a year of use, it's done and doing just that. Wait until 2025/30, when people really start dropping like flies. Or mis-carrying in the 3rd term/going sterile. We'll get you coming and going...
From the beginning, NONE of what the gov't wants you to believe adds up. The numbers are manipulated, stories about alternatives that work are planted. People are being killed/disabled and it's not being reported to VAERS. NO OTHER OPTION but the vaccine. In Biden's ideal world, you can't even show a negative weekly test. Nope. You MUST COMPLY. We WILL inject you with the vaccine. You MUST COMPLY.
Perhaps even more importantly, our freedoms are dying. They did it with the Patriot Act after 9/11, and they're doing it again with "the vaccine"/"build back better" act. They know if you panic Americans enough, they willingly give up their rights in exchage for feeling "safe".
For the love of God, don't be one of them...
1.) Take as many preventative supplements/drugs as you deem reasonable (there are MANY, with science to back all of them, and have the heavy hitters on hand to deal with anything more serious OR;
2.) The Govt's plan: Congrats, you're COVID positive! Here's your inhaler and pulse oximeter, come see us again when you turn blue. Not dying fast enough? Here, here's Remdesivir. It doesn't do a damn thing to kill COVID, but it's great for killing you. Renal failure and death soon to follow. And remember, we get reimbursed by the Fed Gov't for every patient we say has COVID, so make sure to bring a friend.
Honestly, who in their right f'n mnd is going to choose option #2?
Oh but wait, the vaccine, the vaccine, the vaccine. All over the news, it saves so many lives. I see a lotta those stories. Wanna know what I don't see? A story about my Dad, who went blind after getting his 2nd Pfizer shot. NO problems with his eyes before that - none. Has been to the best in the world in Boston General a half dozen times, not looking good he'll see again. And he's FAR from the only one, these vaccine casualties are just not being reported and/or minimized.
Yeah that vaccine's great. It doesn't stop you from getting COVID. It doesn't stop you from spreading it. And it doesn't stop you from dying from it. But the spike protein it generates is dynamite at running around your body causing vascular damage, which will ultimately kill or disable you. In less than a year of use, it's done and doing just that. Wait until 2025/30, when people really start dropping like flies. Or mis-carrying in the 3rd term/going sterile. We'll get you coming and going...
From the beginning, NONE of what the gov't wants you to believe adds up. The numbers are manipulated, stories about alternatives that work are planted. People are being killed/disabled and it's not being reported to VAERS. NO OTHER OPTION but the vaccine. In Biden's ideal world, you can't even show a negative weekly test. Nope. You MUST COMPLY. We WILL inject you with the vaccine. You MUST COMPLY.
Perhaps even more importantly, our freedoms are dying. They did it with the Patriot Act after 9/11, and they're doing it again with "the vaccine"/"build back better" act. They know if you panic Americans enough, they willingly give up their rights in exchage for feeling "safe".
For the love of God, don't be one of them...
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Dustin07
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I didn't say either of those things. I just listed the facts as the CDC has presented them, since people who tend to disagree with me on the current situation do tend to trust what the CDC shares. the CDC has essentially deemed C19 to essentially the same risk as the flu. The CDC also has posted that the vax does have heightened risk for minors. the NIH has listed Ivermectin as a treatment for C19. The govt is trying to push a Jan 4th mandate for vax even though we know the vax loses it's efficacy after an average of 211 days. Studies suggest natural immunity could be life long to some degree.
In regards to continuing on a post that includes Puccah's passing, it's difficult but I don't find it to be distasteful or disrespectful. Her suffering and loss is a painful reminder to all of us that regardless of where you stand on this topic, there are real risks at hand, there is a real virus. People should ask themselves if they're seeking to support their personal bias and narrative, or if they're looking for truth. The truth is people have died, we can't argue that. The question at hand I believe, is what is the answer. Is there one? Is it natural immunity and a healthy lifestyle or is it a man made vaccination? Is death a natural part of life?
I have a 12yr old son who is the single most important thing in my life beyond any other family member or friend. I would immediately give up my life for his. When he had C19 at 11 last winter, he was never bothered more than minor sniffles and enjoyed 2 weeks of video games. (although he did his school work daily as well. his work ethic blows my mind)
because of my experience:
A. I know more people who have suffered from vax than c19
B. I watched my son recover and wasn't hurt in the least
I, personally, am not willing to inject my son with an experimental vaccine still under EUA shields.
Dustin07
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I feel like we suffer from short term memory loss as a society.
We seem to forget that Trump was the first one to shut down borders for this virus (he was called racist) now every country in the world except for Mexico is either closed, or has severe travel restrictions at their borders.
We also seem to forget that we had naval and pop up army hospitals deployed all around the nation. They went largely unused, the one in Seattle never saw a single patient. Yet we are simultaneously firing health care workers and telling everyone to be afraid because hospitals are overwhelmed. OK... then how about we don't fire workers and we utilize the pop up hospitals again?
We require you get vax to keep your job, but we don't care if it was more than 211 days ago, even though we know the vax loses it's value after 211 days. what?
We seem to forget that Trump was the first one to shut down borders for this virus (he was called racist) now every country in the world except for Mexico is either closed, or has severe travel restrictions at their borders.
We also seem to forget that we had naval and pop up army hospitals deployed all around the nation. They went largely unused, the one in Seattle never saw a single patient. Yet we are simultaneously firing health care workers and telling everyone to be afraid because hospitals are overwhelmed. OK... then how about we don't fire workers and we utilize the pop up hospitals again?
We require you get vax to keep your job, but we don't care if it was more than 211 days ago, even though we know the vax loses it's value after 211 days. what?
poison
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Re mixel and 'dropping like flies'. Don't believe? Here's a list of elite athletes who have dropped, many mid practice or mid game. I haven't vetted each one, but many I have, and you are free to do so yourself. It's very long, with an abnormal rate of extremely healthy individuals in their prime dying.
www.notonthebeeb.co.uk
Meanwhile the cdc's head publicist, Walensky, is super glib about natural immunity, and how many cdc employees are vaxxed (they aren't required to vax, BTW, only you are).
WORLDWIDE SURGE OF SPORTS PEOPLE SUFFERING SUDDEN HEALTH ISSUES AND DEATH
Condolences to all of those affected. NOTE: If you see any more articles in your local or national news that we have naffectdd here, please add them to the comments below or best to our dedicated telegram group here: https://t.me/joinchat/M1FOq7bXdjA4YjY0 UPDATE: Vaccine injured professional...
www.notonthebeeb.co.uk
Meanwhile the cdc's head publicist, Walensky, is super glib about natural immunity, and how many cdc employees are vaxxed (they aren't required to vax, BTW, only you are).
mechka_grizli
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That was we both know that he didn't shut the borders down for the virus.
Dustin07
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I am not aware of any other reason that the travel from wuhan was closed
mechka_grizli
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Unfortunately that simply ain't how viruses work. Saying oh it started in China so we can't allow any asians in the country. By that time, the virus had spread. China is a major MAJOR business epicenter and people of all races and ethnic backgrounds travel to and from.I am not aware of any other reason that the travel from wuhan was closed
Only restricting travel China was pretty useless.
14 day timeframe ONLY to the person who visited China. If you live in Europe, go to China, then come back home. Your wife has been exposed to you but she can still travel to the U.S., but you can't. That makes zero sense. If he was, or any gov't, was that concerned then the borders should have been closed entirely
Dustin07
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ok
Jiigzz
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I don't know where you're getting your data from, but posting that alongside your claims is always useful.
Because other data says absolutely differently.
You can also search for the paper titled:
Cardiovascular Adverse Events Reported from COVID-19 Vaccines
and
Vaccination against COVID-19: insight from arterial and venous thrombosis occurrence using data from VigiBase
Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is associated with a prothrombotic phenotype characterised by coagulopathy and endothelial dysfunction [1–4]. Following some cases of thrombosis after vaccination, the Oxford–AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine (AZD1222) was temporarily suspended by some European...
erj.ersjournals.com
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HIT4ME
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Kind of hard to debate given the circumstances....but here goes.
I am just not sure how we can still bash Trump for his handling of the virus and justify mandates for vaccines based in the fact that during the last 10 months of his presidency, when hit with a NOVEL virus that no one saw coming, for which Trump had no defense we lost less people than in the first 8 months of Biden's presidency when he was handed 3 vaccines and more than half the population was vaccinated.
I am sorry, but the continued dogma about vaccines, the continued virtue signaling and faux-intellectialism is just dangerous at this point. It is clear that while the vax is possible "effective" - it is no where near as effective as claimed. And it is hubris to expect anything else in the face of this data. We have 3 vaccines that we created in less than a year, 2 on platforms never before tested in humans, and a lot of us just refuse to believe we didn't get it right on the first go 'round. We need a better solution, but instead of dealing with that, we are arguing about how much smarter the vaxxers are than the anti-vaxxers.
Yes, it is ironic to be afraid of a vaccine and willing to inject yourself with underground drugs.
And yes, a 1 in 84 000 risk is worse than a 1 in 1 million risk - but why take the 1 in 1 million risk if you cannot accurately quantify its impact on the 1 in 84,000 risk? The data that is front of us, from a rather large study of over 150M people, shows no reduction in death rate.
I am just not sure how we can still bash Trump for his handling of the virus and justify mandates for vaccines based in the fact that during the last 10 months of his presidency, when hit with a NOVEL virus that no one saw coming, for which Trump had no defense we lost less people than in the first 8 months of Biden's presidency when he was handed 3 vaccines and more than half the population was vaccinated.
I am sorry, but the continued dogma about vaccines, the continued virtue signaling and faux-intellectialism is just dangerous at this point. It is clear that while the vax is possible "effective" - it is no where near as effective as claimed. And it is hubris to expect anything else in the face of this data. We have 3 vaccines that we created in less than a year, 2 on platforms never before tested in humans, and a lot of us just refuse to believe we didn't get it right on the first go 'round. We need a better solution, but instead of dealing with that, we are arguing about how much smarter the vaxxers are than the anti-vaxxers.
Yes, it is ironic to be afraid of a vaccine and willing to inject yourself with underground drugs.
And yes, a 1 in 84 000 risk is worse than a 1 in 1 million risk - but why take the 1 in 1 million risk if you cannot accurately quantify its impact on the 1 in 84,000 risk? The data that is front of us, from a rather large study of over 150M people, shows no reduction in death rate.
Jiigzz
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Do you mind posting the source?
Because a lot of other research indicates the opposite:
Google Scholar
Effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines on covid-19 related symptoms, hospital admissions, and mortality in older adults in England: test negative case-control study - PubMed
Vaccination with either one dose of BNT162b2 or ChAdOx1-S was associated with a significant reduction in symptomatic covid-19 in older adults, and with further protection against severe disease. Both vaccines showed similar effects. Protection was maintained for the duration of follow-up (>6 week …
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Effectiveness of First Dose of COVID-19 Vaccines Against Hospital Admissions in Scotland: National Prospective Cohort Study of 5.4 Million People
Background: The BNT162b2 mRNA (Pfizer-BioNTech) and ChAdOx1 (Oxford-AstraZeneca) COVID-19 vaccines have demonstrated high efficacy against infection in phase 3
papers.ssrn.com
Deaths involving COVID-19 by vaccination status, England - Office for National Statistics
An analysis of deaths involving COVID-19 that occurred between 2 January and 2 July 2021 in England, by vaccination status. Includes weekly age-standardised mortality rates for deaths involving COVID-19 by vaccination status and a detailed analysis of deaths involving COVID-19 that occurred in...
www.ons.gov.uk
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HIT4ME
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The source is all over the news still...or Google. You can find articles in October of this year stating as many Americans are dead in 2021 from Covid as does in 2020. We can pretend that real life doesn't matter because someone in a lab coat did a study, but obviously that isn't how it works. There are countless times studies have said things that, once the subject is unleashed I'm the real world, it is found to go very differently.Do you mind posting the source?
Because a lot of other research indicates the opposite:
Google Scholar
scholar.google.com
Effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines on covid-19 related symptoms, hospital admissions, and mortality in older adults in England: test negative case-control study - PubMed
Vaccination with either one dose of BNT162b2 or ChAdOx1-S was associated with a significant reduction in symptomatic covid-19 in older adults, and with further protection against severe disease. Both vaccines showed similar effects. Protection was maintained for the duration of follow-up (>6 week …
Effectiveness of First Dose of COVID-19 Vaccines Against Hospital Admissions in Scotland: National Prospective Cohort Study of 5.4 Million People
Background: The BNT162b2 mRNA (Pfizer-BioNTech) and ChAdOx1 (Oxford-AstraZeneca) COVID-19 vaccines have demonstrated high efficacy against infection in phase 3papers.ssrn.com
I mean, if that wasn't the case we would all be taking Pyruvate and HMB on this board. I wish the studies always translated into real world results...I would be 250 and 3% bodyfat.
Just look at the deaths in the US, where more than half the population has been vaccinated.
Show me a larger experiment that shows a reduction in death rates??
Or are you stating that doctors are over-reporting Covid death rates now?
Anyway, here is one source:
U.S. Covid-19 Deaths For 2021 Surpass Toll From 2020
The country reported 352,000 deaths since the start of 2021, 1,000 more than were reported in 2020.
www.forbes.com
HIT4ME
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Here is an article from July with obvious spin.
99% of the deaths are in the unvaccinated. But vaccines were "low" with 50% if the population having 1 dose and only 20% having 2 doses.
Yet inspire of the increase in vaccinations at that point, to 20%, there was no overall reduction in deaths. There was an increase.
Was the virus suddenly more deadly to unvaccinated people because others became vaccinated?
If so, does that mean the vaccinated individuals were responsible for killing unvaccinated people?
Of course not. The entire train of thought is ludicrous tripe.
If vaccines are effective, you should see a decrease in deaths as vaccines grow in the population.
Clearly this is not happening.
www.npr.org
99% of the deaths are in the unvaccinated. But vaccines were "low" with 50% if the population having 1 dose and only 20% having 2 doses.
Yet inspire of the increase in vaccinations at that point, to 20%, there was no overall reduction in deaths. There was an increase.
Was the virus suddenly more deadly to unvaccinated people because others became vaccinated?
If so, does that mean the vaccinated individuals were responsible for killing unvaccinated people?
Of course not. The entire train of thought is ludicrous tripe.
If vaccines are effective, you should see a decrease in deaths as vaccines grow in the population.
Clearly this is not happening.
U.S. COVID Deaths Are Rising Again. Experts Call It A 'Pandemic Of The Unvaccinated'
Reversing a months-long downward trend, deaths from COVID-19 have begun rising steadily this week. More than 99% of the recent fatalities were among people who had not been vaccinated.
www.npr.org
Jiigzz
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What?The source is all over the news still...or Google. You can find articles in October of this year stating as many Americans are dead in 2021 from Covid as does in 2020. We can pretend that real life doesn't matter because someone in a lab coat did a study, but obviously that isn't how it works. There are countless times studies have said things that, once the subject is unleashed I'm the real world, it is found to go very differently.
I mean, if that wasn't the case we would all be taking Pyruvate and HMB on this board. I wish the studies always translated into real world results...I would be 250 and 3% bodyfat.
Just look at the deaths in the US, where more than half the population has been vaccinated.
Show me a larger experiment that shows a reduction in death rates??
Or are you stating that doctors are over-reporting Covid death rates now?
Anyway, here is one source:
U.S. Covid-19 Deaths For 2021 Surpass Toll From 2020
The country reported 352,000 deaths since the start of 2021, 1,000 more than were reported in 2020.
Are you really comparing rat and mice studies to observational research in humans that is following actual cases? It's not "a guy in a lab". The research cited above spans millions of people.
You're making it seem like the 50% of all vaccinated are evenly spread among the entire population, or maybe you've convinced yourself that is how it works. More than likely there are hot spots and low spots for vaccinations, and so when covid eventually hits areas with low vax rates then deaths will go up. That's not a conspiracy, it's common sense.
And let's not mention that the death rate in the US at one point was several thousand per day. Certainly not that many now, is it?
Yikes man.
And here I thought better of your research ability
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Jiigzz
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Jesus man lol you are really stretching here.Here is an article from July with obvious spin.
99% of the deaths are in the unvaccinated. But vaccines were "low" with 50% if the population having 1 dose and only 20% having 2 doses.
Yet inspire of the increase in vaccinations at that point, to 20%, there was no overall reduction in deaths. There was an increase.
Was the virus suddenly more deadly to unvaccinated people because others became vaccinated?
If so, does that mean the vaccinated individuals were responsible for killing unvaccinated people?
Of course not. The entire train of thought is ludicrous tripe.
If vaccines are effective, you should see a decrease in deaths as vaccines grow in the population.
Clearly this is not happening.
U.S. COVID Deaths Are Rising Again. Experts Call It A 'Pandemic Of The Unvaccinated'
Reversing a months-long downward trend, deaths from COVID-19 have begun rising steadily this week. More than 99% of the recent fatalities were among people who had not been vaccinated.
Let's break it down: during summer, the death rate and hospitalization rate dropped. This was expected. We notice the same for colds and flu. Naturally, as we come into winter, the cases, hospitalizations and deaths are going to increase. Again, this is expected.
In many states mask use was eased around May and June - so it goes without saying that there would be an expected increase in cases in the following months. You might dispute the effectiveness of masks, but I could not care less.
But let's get into the real crux of it all:
Vaccination rates are extremely different state to state, age to age, and demographic to demographic. Just looking at total data and trying to extrapolate it to a completely different data set just doesn't work, nor was that the intention of the data.
if 100% of the people on the east side of town are vaccinated, and 0% of the people on the west side of town are unvaccinated, the total % may be 50%, but in reality one side is far more protected (according to the data) than the other. That 50% is not dispersed throughout the population. If a disease then rips through the west side of town and kills 50% of its total population, you don't say "how could this be when 50% of the population is vaccinated", because in reality 0% of that specific population was vaccinated.
I mean, you can twist it any way you like if it makes you feel better and that is 100% fine - the only person you have to justify it to is yourself. But you can't post a forbes article and act like that has the same weighting as observational data tracking millions of people, because they are not the same. At all.
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HIT4ME
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I'm not comparing mice studies to observational studies....I was making a general statement with some humor. Are you comparing a study with a "millions of people" has the same power as an observational study, easily conducted by anyone, tracking literally the entire population? The Forbes article was just an article written using the observational data tracking the ENTIRE population, so you are right, it cannot be given the same weight. The underlying data has far more weight than the smaller studies.
Do you really believe this is a distribution issue?
Do you REALLY believe that if state A has 30 million people, state B has 30 million people, and we have a total death rate of 70,000 per year, that if I vaccinate state A and not state B - the death rate in state B will double because they weren't vaccinated?
I mean A + B = C in this case....so if I remove A entirely - how can B = C by itself? B would have to increase of course.
Obviously it isn't this cut and dry - but this would be the ultimate extreme of your situation and you can certainly see that the logic doesn't hold true if taken to it's ultimate point, so why would it hold true at a less-than-ultimate point? I mean, if uneven distribution is the reason deaths have not gone down, than any increase improvement in distribution from a complete segregation would be an improvement.
And, if distribution is the issue, and thus vaccinated people are doubling the chance of death for unvaccinated people - what does that mean for the have's and have-not's? I would guess the wealthy, as usual, are able to obtain resources and the poor have a harder time doing so, so does that mean that getting a vaccine is unethical? You are taking the risk that everyone was carrying and shifting it onto a subset of the group to carry by themselves?
The charts you posted actually may support this issue - which should give you ethical pause over mandates.
Further, are you stating that Joe Biden, handed 3 vaccines as he took office - has now flubbed the deployment and ultimately only managed to shift deaths onto a subset of the population, while not impacting the actual death rate as much as he should have?
Again, the charts you posted seem to suggest Joe Biden has really screwed this up pretty badly. They've really shifted the burden onto the have-nots in this case. I thought that was the type of thing his party fought against?
But hey, let's look at some data. You know, like VT. Since 71% of the population is vaccinated there - more than any other state. Since vaccinations help, shouldn't the state with the highest vaccination see the largest decline in deaths (and possibly infections although I think we all agree by now the vax doesn't do much for preventing infection)?
This posted 20 hours ago - Vermont just had it's highest number of infections in a single day on Friday:
https://www.vpr.org/vpr-news/2021-11-05/news-roundup-vt-dept-of-health-reports-377-new-covid-19-cases-friday-3-more-deaths
3 people dead - about 1%. Now, if you compare this to the entire US population - 46,146,676 cumulative cases and 747,957 dead, yeah - that's an improved death rate from about just about 1.6% to about 0.9%. Not too shabby. It ALMOST cut the death rate in half...not completely ineffective...but not hugely effective in a low-population state.
Here's more on VT:
Vermont coronavirus cases and deaths
How is Vermont faring against COVID-19, both overall and at a state level? Get the answers here, with data on hotspots and infection rates. This map tracks the history of coronavirus cases in Vermont, both recent and all-time.
usafacts.org
Don't get me wrong, I'm comparing the same population now to the most similar population a year ago - except even that is flawed because the weakest would be most susceptible and should have died in the beginning so today's population should arguably be more robust. But we can ignore that.
Or you can take the entire data set from today and compare it to the entire data set a year ago (meaning the entire US in my particular case - although the entire world would be appropriate). It's not blinded by any means since, hopefully, people who thought they were getting vaccinated were actually receiving the vaccine, but the data all points in the same direction - the vaccine may be mildly effective but it isn't anywhere near as effective as we would like.
To be clear, I'm not against getting a vaccine - I actually think that the vast majority of people should get it. What I'm against is the lack of skepticism and complete hubris that we have on display. Anyone questioning this vaccine should probably be doing so. Anyone not questioning this is likely being foolish.
I also get the knee-jerk reaction to my stance is a little conditioned, because there are a lot of stupid people with anti-vax ideas that just don't make sense.
Anyway, you always make me think. Thanks for that. My time is a lot more limited than normal so I may not have much time to return to this; but I always appreciate the push back and ideas. You're not wrong; I just have a different filter.
poison
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Lol, blaming the unvaxxed. That's patently false, and borne out by data from the most vaxxed places, like Israel, Gibralter, Ireland, etc.
Irish Quandary: Who to Blame When Everyone’s Vaxxed? - The American Spectator | USA News and Politics
Irish Quandary: Who to Blame When Everyone’s Vaxxed? - The American Spectator | USA News and Politics
Dustin07
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actually, that's not what's happening.
Also, with 50 million confirmed cases in the states, herd immunity is a thing.
That's confirmed cases. half the people I know who have undoubtedly had C19 did not get tested.
Dustin07
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In Washington, that's not true either.
We spiked in all three categories: cases, hospitalizations, and deaths this summer directly in line with increased vaccination rates.
we have been on a downward trend since the first week of Sept. Vax rates are down, covid cases are down, herd immunity is up
HIT4ME
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Great line from our President: “Freedom? I have the freedom to kill you with my COVID,”
It shows the level of intellect he has. How would he classify a person with the flu or any other disease killing someone with a sickness - more or less deadly? Explains why he finished top in his law class I guess. Well, at least in the top 98%.
I think the point here is, we can blame the vaccinated individuals - because they are shifting burden onto the less able population. Just like you cannot require a license for voting because some people don't know how to find the RMV. You maybe shouldn't be allowed to be vaccinated, because apparently it increases the chance of an unvaccinated death by 2-3X in a population that is less likely to be vaccinated.
(Obviously being tongue-in-cheek and just having fun with this. Nothing I say should be taken too seriously.)
HIT4ME
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Sorry man....gonna call it the same on both sides here. If Jiggzz just posted a tweet as a source...We'd be all over it. Since I just used Forbes instead of digging up the raw data...I can't say too much either. But twitter and facebook are just on the radar for me. haha.
Dustin07
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well the CDC did report that vaccinated people temporarily have a higher viral load (more contagious) than unvaccinated, but claim this dissipates quicker. Which means the CDC is almost in agreement with studies I've seen out of Sweden, Taiwan, Israel, and Vietnam which all claim vaccinated individuals are up to 27x more contagious.
We have seen massive spikes in all developed countries which correlate DIRECTLY to increased vaccinations.
We have all see the VAERS website show a massive spike in vaccine side effects
the gov of California is missing and rumored to have bells palsy since his last jab.
I don't really care if someone believes it or not.
I've had C19 as has my whole family. studies indicate we may have immunity for life. studies show we are more immune than a vaccinated individual.
at the end of the day, life is hard. people get sick, people die, and the govt needs to get the **** out of our lives.
We have seen massive spikes in all developed countries which correlate DIRECTLY to increased vaccinations.
We have all see the VAERS website show a massive spike in vaccine side effects
the gov of California is missing and rumored to have bells palsy since his last jab.
I don't really care if someone believes it or not.
I've had C19 as has my whole family. studies indicate we may have immunity for life. studies show we are more immune than a vaccinated individual.
at the end of the day, life is hard. people get sick, people die, and the govt needs to get the **** out of our lives.
rob112
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According to Israel studies you have 6-13 times more immunity than vaccinated and that study was like two and a half million people.
I also seen that more contagious when first vaccinated. Also something like efficacy drops like 40% every few months(don’t remember exact numbers). What are we going to mandate never ending boosters? What happens next virus that kills 99.75% of people infected.
Go big pharma and the billionaires we are making? Hell yes to power to crush small businesses? Cool the 1% now have more wealth than the entire middle class hooray?
Clown world. People who live in fear with massive anxiety should not be making decisions for the rest of the population. Go live in a bubble. Have at it. If you’re the aggressor you are the problem. Period.
My 2 cents no one asked for haha
Jiigzz
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We know that vaccines don't stop infection, so using case numbers to back a stance that isn't being made here is a complete misrepresentation of the argument.
The vaccine has helped reduce hospital admissions and lowered the death rate when you compare both of those against vaccination status.
This is from Gibralter: "The incidence of COVID-19 related deaths in those who are vaccinated is much lower than those who are not."
Pretty simple really.
Jiigzz
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VAERS is a self reporting website. It helps researchers collate information that can be linked to the vaccine.
Not every medical event after vaccinationis linked to vaccination, despite what some would have you believe.
Using Vermont as the example, what % of those who died were vaccinated? What % of those in hospital currently are vaccinated?I'm not comparing mice studies to observational studies....I was making a general statement with some humor. Are you comparing a study with a "millions of people" has the same power as an observational study, easily conducted by anyone, tracking literally the entire population? The Forbes article was just an article written using the observational data tracking the ENTIRE population, so you are right, it cannot be given the same weight. The underlying data has far more weight than the smaller studies.
Do you really believe this is a distribution issue?
Do you REALLY believe that if state A has 30 million people, state B has 30 million people, and we have a total death rate of 70,000 per year, that if I vaccinate state A and not state B - the death rate in state B will double because they weren't vaccinated?
I mean A + B = C in this case....so if I remove A entirely - how can B = C by itself? B would have to increase of course.
Obviously it isn't this cut and dry - but this would be the ultimate extreme of your situation and you can certainly see that the logic doesn't hold true if taken to it's ultimate point, so why would it hold true at a less-than-ultimate point? I mean, if uneven distribution is the reason deaths have not gone down, than any increase improvement in distribution from a complete segregation would be an improvement.
And, if distribution is the issue, and thus vaccinated people are doubling the chance of death for unvaccinated people - what does that mean for the have's and have-not's? I would guess the wealthy, as usual, are able to obtain resources and the poor have a harder time doing so, so does that mean that getting a vaccine is unethical? You are taking the risk that everyone was carrying and shifting it onto a subset of the group to carry by themselves?
The charts you posted actually may support this issue - which should give you ethical pause over mandates.
Further, are you stating that Joe Biden, handed 3 vaccines as he took office - has now flubbed the deployment and ultimately only managed to shift deaths onto a subset of the population, while not impacting the actual death rate as much as he should have?
Again, the charts you posted seem to suggest Joe Biden has really screwed this up pretty badly. They've really shifted the burden onto the have-nots in this case. I thought that was the type of thing his party fought against?
But hey, let's look at some data. You know, like VT. Since 71% of the population is vaccinated there - more than any other state. Since vaccinations help, shouldn't the state with the highest vaccination see the largest decline in deaths (and possibly infections although I think we all agree by now the vax doesn't do much for preventing infection)?
This posted 20 hours ago - Vermont just had it's highest number of infections in a single day on Friday:
https://www.vpr.org/vpr-news/2021-11-05/news-roundup-vt-dept-of-health-reports-377-new-covid-19-cases-friday-3-more-deaths
3 people dead - about 1%. Now, if you compare this to the entire US population - 46,146,676 cumulative cases and 747,957 dead, yeah - that's an improved death rate from about just about 1.6% to about 0.9%. Not too shabby. It ALMOST cut the death rate in half...not completely ineffective...but not hugely effective in a low-population state.
Here's more on VT:
Vermont coronavirus cases and deaths
How is Vermont faring against COVID-19, both overall and at a state level? Get the answers here, with data on hotspots and infection rates. This map tracks the history of coronavirus cases in Vermont, both recent and all-time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm comparing the same population now to the most similar population a year ago - except even that is flawed because the weakest would be most susceptible and should have died in the beginning so today's population should arguably be more robust. But we can ignore that.
Or you can take the entire data set from today and compare it to the entire data set a year ago (meaning the entire US in my particular case - although the entire world would be appropriate). It's not blinded by any means since, hopefully, people who thought they were getting vaccinated were actually receiving the vaccine, but the data all points in the same direction - the vaccine may be mildly effective but it isn't anywhere near as effective as we would like.
To be clear, I'm not against getting a vaccine - I actually think that the vast majority of people should get it. What I'm against is the lack of skepticism and complete hubris that we have on display. Anyone questioning this vaccine should probably be doing so. Anyone not questioning this is likely being foolish.
I also get the knee-jerk reaction to my stance is a little conditioned, because there are a lot of stupid people with anti-vax ideas that just don't make sense.
Anyway, you always make me think. Thanks for that. My time is a lot more limited than normal so I may not have much time to return to this; but I always appreciate the push back and ideas. You're not wrong; I just have a different filter.
Without that data you are making wild assumptions about how the vaccine is purported to work to back a stance you are extrapolating from total data.
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Jiigzz
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What % of those in ICU had been vaccinated and what % of those dead had been vaccinated?In Washington, that's not true either.
We spiked in all three categories: cases, hospitalizations, and deaths this summer directly in line with increased vaccination rates.
we have been on a downward trend since the first week of Sept. Vax rates are down, covid cases are down, herd immunity is up
If 70% of that total population are vaccinated, we are still talking millions in raw numbers who arent. When you couple that with eased restrictions and other factors, of course sheer numbers have the possibility to increase.
You guys keep posting the same total number stuff but are completely ignoring 2 crucial data points that help back the efficacy of the vaccine.
If the data existed showing no drop in ICU visits or deaths from vs vaxxed or not, then this conversation would be going a completely different direction. But the data that actually assesses those points, and includes datasets from around the world (almost every country that is reporting on it) is noticing a drop in hospitilosations, ICU visits and ultimately deaths.
Ignoring or choosing which data to believe doesn't change anything that is actually happening.
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poison
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 (twimg.com))
https://t.co/THptbL1NFL" / Twitter
poison
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The vaxxed are driving variants, and there are most likely a lot of unreported vax injuries. It's finally being reported on, though of course 'no evidence shows that the vaccine causes athletes to die'.
Mysterious heart disease in football (berliner-zeitung.de)
But hey, anyone who threatens Pfizer profits er, um, questions the narrative, is, in Pfizer CEO's words, a 'criminal'.
Disclose.tv on Twitter: "JUST IN - Pfizer CEO: People who "spread misinformation" on the #COVID19 vaccines are criminals (CNBC)" / Twitter
Words of a true hero and savior. /:
Jiigzz
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I'm curious, did you click on the link or just read the tweet?
Because the data on the link they cited doesn't seem to support the table they created. Did they create the table knowing people would check for themselves? Looks like it.
From the link directly
Attachments
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Jiigzz
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Footballers have been dying or having heart attacks on the field for decades. You can search that information for yourself scanning back pre covid days.
The article this was taken from was written before vaccines, and in the very early days of covid:
"Sudden deaths in footballers are more common than we previously believed and despite screening, cardiac conditions are still the leading cause of death in footballers"
Do you just find anything that mentions the heart and jump to "OMG DA VAX DID IT" when it's been known for a while? Or are you now randomly concerned with cardiac events in footballers?
What exactly is your point here?
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Jiigzz
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I've even looked through the top 10 of the weekly covid reports for MN, and not ONE supports the conclusions drawn in that table.
Each PDF has an in-depth analysis that compares a multitude of data points
Each PDF has an in-depth analysis that compares a multitude of data points
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Jiigzz
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Here is a research article on hypertrophic cardiomyopathy in athletes from 2017.
Maybe the real conspiracy is that they were secretly vaccinating for covid back then
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Maybe the real conspiracy is that they were secretly vaccinating for covid back then
Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy in Athletes
Sudden cardiac death (SCD) in a young person is a rare but tragic occurrence. The impact is widespread, particularly in the modern era of media coverage and visibility of social media. Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) is reported historically as the ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
rob112
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Anyone think it’s odd they recently approved blood thinners for kids?
www.fda.gov
FDA Approves First Oral Blood Thinning Medication for Children
Today, the FDA approved Pradaxa oral pellets and capsules for the treatment and prevention of blood clots in children.
Ricky10
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No, I believe we covered this back in August. The China virus is well known to be a vascular disease. Which has also presented in children. Why wouldn’t we want to have an oral anticoagulant available for children when indicated?Anyone think it’s odd they recently approved blood thinners for kids?
FDA Approves First Oral Blood Thinning Medication for Children
Today, the FDA approved Pradaxa oral pellets and capsules for the treatment and prevention of blood clots in children.
poison
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Maybe you should pay attention to the disturbing number of athletes dropping on the field. It's not normal. It's not definitively tied to the vaccine, but it's dishonest to ignore it, as well.Here is a research article on hypertrophic cardiomyopathy in athletes from 2017.
Maybe the real conspiracy is that they were secretly vaccinating for covid back then
Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy in Athletes
Sudden cardiac death (SCD) in a young person is a rare but tragic occurrence. The impact is widespread, particularly in the modern era of media coverage and visibility of social media. Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) is reported historically as the ...
There are MANY more where that came from.
rob112
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Must of missed that. I’m not against it I just found it odd that articles of risk in cardio vascular issues from the vaccine particularly in young boys then this.
You see a lot of people in your practice where blood thinners help get over Covid? Kids? I believe I do recall one person mentioning baby aspirin now that I think about it. Although aren’t they now saying that isn’t good for heart stuff?
Hard to remember everything I feel like you need to make this crap your day job to keep all the info in order. Why I typically stick to being anti mandate instead of anything else.
Kronic
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I do find it weird that the vaccine has similar side effects that overlap with covid19 symptoms. a lot of pro vaccine studies compare the chance of getting X from the vaccine vs getting it from covid19 (like myocarditis, birth defects, COPD). it's always the same comparison and neglects previously infected people with natural immunity.
Jiigzz
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I like that you doubled down on it.
There are more and more people dying from hunger now than ever before! It is definitely the vaccine!
Can I ask how many of these news articles you've gone through and verified the vaccination status of the people involved? I've only found 1 so far that has, and the rest literally mention nothing. Have you gone through yourself and checked this? Or are you just throwing so much sh*t at the wall you're hoping something sticks?
How do you know the athletes didn't have covid? We know covid affects the vascular system, so why are we dismissing that?
Some of the articles posted are not even linked to the heart- one just says "he got dizzy". Why did that make it onto the list?
Actually, what is dishonest is you posting random fear mongering crap in a thread where someone we all know has died from covid. If you wanted to have an evidence based chat, then cool let's do that, but all you're doing is posting a bunch of random links about athletes dropping due to heart issues and saying "THIS CANNOT BE IGNORED" without any actual evidence.
Sea levels are rising, must be the vaccine
Elon Musk was the first person to hit 300B - must be the vaccine
Global oil deposits are decreasing - must be the vaccine.
If you actually cared about research, you'd read articles like this rather than take a list created by someone else showing people dropping due to heart issues and then just saying "the coincidence is too much to ignore, IT MUST BE THE VACCINE" when these events have literally been studied for years, AND the majority the links do not mention or verify vaccination status, they make the wild assumption they are all vaccinated.
If you're just trying to find more obscure reasons to not vaccinate, all the more power to you. But when you come into a public space and then try use random news stories about 1 particular topic to back your anti vaccination rhetoric, then expect to be called out on it.
Sudden Cardiac Death in Athletes
Sudden cardiac death is a tragedy at any age and under any circumstances but is perhaps most tragic when it claims the life of the athlete, the indivi…
www.sciencedirect.com
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thebigt
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president biden:
this bothers me more than anything else, that they don't take into consideration people who have had the virus...way back when faucci was talking about herd immunity?
rob112
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Well it’s the shutdowns due to our response to Covid. UN said the trend is reversing for world hunger. There are many consequences from our response that are not nearly talked about enough.
Jiigzz
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I was being facetious
poison
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No, those deaths are brought on by stupid, unscientific coronavirus measures, which reversed decades of progress in months, and obliterated a singular historical milestone crossed in (iirc) 2019, where for the first time in human history, more people were leaving poverty than entering it.
Good job. Double down. Measures didn't work the first 3 waves, but they'll definitely work the 4th, just please don't trip over the piles of dead bodies!
Extreme poverty is getting worse across the globe for the first time in decades
Covid-19 is projected to leave millions more people trying to live on less than $1.90/day.
www.google.com
COVID-related hunger could kill more people than the virus | UN Global Compact
Go up, read what I wrote, then you'll be able to answer your own rhetorical question.
Because we read studies and listen to science.
You know why it's difficult to post evidence? Because evidence has been manipulated, obfuscated, and ignored for 2 full years now. Science was weaponized, and all we're left with is POLITICAL science. If your sensibilities are offended by asking legitimate questions, then you're clearly not honest, or 'following the science', no matter how many times it's repeated.
The easiest example to point out is 'why hasn't a serological study been run to find out how many have natural immunity?'. India has run 3 massive studies and have a very good idea on the topic in their population, why the **** can't we? That's critical info in formulating a coherent plan to overcome this.
Beyond that, they want to vaccinate everyone, regardless of immune status or prior infection. Studies show that vaxxing after prior infection has more side effects and dangers than the infection naïve.
Again, why don't we know how many were infected? Why didn't we run mass antibody testing? Why don't we care and just want people to assume the risk of the vax, when they're already blessed with superior natural immunity? Why don't we know how many VAERS reports are actual real, or concerning? Why don't we know why more athletes are dropping than normal? Why is it now out of the question to distrust big pharma?
We all know why. Money. Just merge Pfizer with the cdc and FDA and call it a day, they're all running interference for each other anyway, and you?
Shilling for them all on AM.
Cliffnote: I personally know people who had major issues after the vax. I also know many people who had CV, none of whom had issues. So I will continue to question the narrative and the manipulated science.
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Jiigzz
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So your answer to the political issues you have is to make up your own data, none of which is verified, because you trust your own assumptions more?No, those deaths are brought on by stupid, unscientific coronavirus measures, which reversed decades of progress in months, and obliterated a singular historical milestone crossed in (iirc) 2019, where for the first time in human history, more people were leaving poverty than entering it.
Good job. Double down. Measures didn't work the first 3 waves, but they'll definitely work the 4th, just please don't trip over the piles of dead bodies!
Extreme poverty is getting worse across the globe for the first time in decades
Covid-19 is projected to leave millions more people trying to live on less than $1.90/day.
COVID-related hunger could kill more people than the virus | UN Global Compact
unglobalcompact.org
Go up, read what I wrote, then you'll be able to answer your own rhetorical question.
Because we read studies and listen to science.
You know why it's difficult to post evidence? Because evidence has been manipulated, obfuscated, and ignored for 2 full years now. Science was weaponized, and all we're left with is POLITICAL science. If your sensibilities are offended by asking legitimate questions, then you're clearly not honest, or 'following the science', no matter how many times it's repeated.
The easiest example to point out is 'why hasn't a serological study been run to find out how many have natural immunity?'. India has run 3 massive studies and have a very good idea on the topic in their population, why the **** can't we? That's critical info in formulating a coherent plan to overcome this.
Beyond that, they want to vaccinate everyone, regardless of immune status or prior infection. Studies show that vaxxing after prior infection has more side effects and dangers than the infection naïve.
Again, why don't we know how many were infected? Why didn't we run mass antibody testing? Why don't we care and just want people to assume the risk of the vax, when they're already blessed with superior natural immunity? Why don't we know how many VAERS reports are actual real, or concerning? Why don't we know why more athletes are dropping than normal? Why is it now out of the question to distrust big pharma?
We all know why. Money. Just merge Pfizer with the cdc and FDA and call it a day, they're all running interference for each other anyway, and you?
Shilling for them all on AM.
Cliffnote: I personally know people who had major issues after the vax. I also know many people who had CV, none of whom had issues. So I will continue to question the narrative and the manipulated science.
I bet you had never heard of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy before, or left ventricular hypertrophy in its relation to athletes and athlete heart screening. But now you care so much because someone compiled a thread on twitter about how they believe (being the operative word), that it's all part of a vaccine conspiracy.
Coronavirus Disease 2019 and the Athletic Heart: Emerging Perspectives on Pathology, Risks, and Return to Play - PubMed
This report was designed to address the most common questions regarding COVID-19 and cardiac pathology in athletes in competitive sports, including the extension of return-to-play considerations to discrete populations of athletes not addressed in prior recommendations. Multicenter registry data...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I also personally know lots of people who have had the vax and not a single one has had issues apart from a sore arm. But then somehow the people who were forced to get the vaccine or lose their jobs get it AND WAM, they report every side effect they can think of.
I wonder why those that didn't care about getting the vax got no issues, but those who had to had so many? You ever question that?
poison
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You bet? What's next, you 'assume'? Oh right, youre already there. You're also wrong there.So your answer to the political issues you have is to make up your own data, none of which is verified, because you trust your own assumptions more?
I bet you had never heard of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy before, or left ventricular hypertrophy in its relation to athletes and athlete heart screening. But now you care so much because someone compiled a thread on twitter about how they believe (being the operative word), that it's all part of a vaccine conspiracy.
Coronavirus Disease 2019 and the Athletic Heart: Emerging Perspectives on Pathology, Risks, and Return to Play - PubMed
This report was designed to address the most common questions regarding COVID-19 and cardiac pathology in athletes in competitive sports, including the extension of return-to-play considerations to discrete populations of athletes not addressed in prior recommendations. Multicenter registry data...
I also personally know lots of people who have had the vax and not a single one has had issues apart from a sore arm. But then somehow the people who were forced to get the vaccine or lose their jobs get it AND WAM, they report every side effect they can think of.
I wonder why those that didn't care about getting the vax got no issues, but those who had to had so many? You ever question that?
The people I know first hand that had bad experiences, including hospitalization, were ecstatic to get the vax, so again, you miss the mark. No one around me in my line of work is being forced to vax.
I'm sure you're also aware VAERS reports were sky high before the vax was mandated anywhere. Right? Why do you feel the need to minimize any negative aspects of the vax, which are proven to exist?
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