Wife Has COVID-19

[Hyde]

Right on. Were doing that with Walmart. I did find a type of curcumin that will be here Thursday, but not sabinsa, still Life Extension though.

Side note, house lost power! Nothing worse than no power and quarantine lol

Life Extension is a brand I would trust absolutely. They rarely are the best price for a serving of something, but they are good to go in the quality department.

 

[THEstudent]

@GreenMachineX Ivermectin has been shown to be extremely effective. You can order overseas and there are some online docs that will prescribe but if it were my wife I would just go to the feed store and get the paste. It is the same thing just made in a way to give to animals. Has a mild apple flavor, not great but not disgusting either. I took it when I got COVID in January and only had very mild symptoms.

 

[mavup]

@GreenMachineX Ivermectin has been shown to be extremely effective. You can order overseas and there are some online docs that will prescribe but if it were my wife I would just go to the feed store and get the paste. It is the same thing just made in a way to give to animals. Has a mild apple flavor, not great but not disgusting either. I took it when I got COVID in January and only had very mild symptoms.

Respectfully, no, it has not.

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD015017.pub2/full

“Based on the current very low‐ to low‐certainty evidence, we are uncertain about the efficacy and safety of ivermectin used to treat or prevent COVID‐19. The completed studies are small and few are considered high quality. Several studies are underway that may produce clearer answers in review updates. Overall, the reliable evidence available does not support the use ivermectin for treatment or prevention of COVID‐19 outside of well‐designed randomized trials.”

 

[HIT4ME]

Honestly, I am not super worried about the NAC study, although it is interesting. NAC is given intravenously in doses of something like 14 g in acetaminophen poisoning so taking a few grams a day for a while probably has little effect. I would have to really dig into the original study you linked to see if there were any real concerns, but you also eat multiple grams of cysteine a day, and the acetyl group is generally healthy.

If you are concerned, combining it with agmatine may be a potential strategy - and maybe not a bad one, as agmatine helps maintain oxygen homeostasis and has been shown to prevent lung remodeling in other situations, and it also should help normalize cytokine response.

If you have any access to statins, those have been shown to reduce duration I believe as well.

Beyond that, focus on the basics IMO. Vitamin C, I would go to 10,000iu D, zinc, NAC all make sense to me. Maybe quercetin but I am not really sold on that, could just be a lack of knowledge for me.

Good luck brother. I wish you and your wife the best of course! Let me know if I can help in any way of course.

 

[JeremyNG25]

Respectfully, no, it has not.

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD015017.pub2/full

“Based on the current very low‐ to low‐certainty evidence, we are uncertain about the efficacy and safety of ivermectin used to treat or prevent COVID‐19. The completed studies are small and few are considered high quality. Several studies are underway that may produce clearer answers in review updates. Overall, the reliable evidence available does not support the use ivermectin for treatment or prevention of COVID‐19 outside of well‐designed randomized trials.”

https://ivmmeta.com 60 different studies say you’re wrong. Ivermectin alone could have ended this pandemic and saved hundreds of thousands of lives. The US is not transparent. They lie for profit. Other countries however are very very transparent when it comes to scientific studies.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Honestly, I am not super worried about the NAC study, although it is interesting. NAC is given intravenously in doses of something like 14 g in acetaminophen poisoning so taking a few grams a day for a while probably has little effect. I would have to really dig into the original study you linked to see if there were any real concerns, but you also eat multiple grams of cysteine a day, and the acetyl group is generally healthy.

If you are concerned, combining it with agmatine may be a potential strategy - and maybe not a bad one, as agmatine helps maintain oxygen homeostasis and has been shown to prevent lung remodeling in other situations, and it also should help normalize cytokine response.

If you have any access to statins, those have been shown to reduce duration I believe as well.

Beyond that, focus on the basics IMO. Vitamin C, I would go to 10,000iu D, zinc, NAC all make sense to me. Maybe quercetin but I am not really sold on that, could just be a lack of knowledge for me.

Good luck brother. I wish you and your wife the best of course! Let me know if I can help in any way of course.

Thanks man. I appreciate it. Hope your doing well!

 

[GreenMachineX]

Honestly, I am not super worried about the NAC study, although it is interesting. NAC is given intravenously in doses of something like 14 g in acetaminophen poisoning so taking a few grams a day for a while probably has little effect. I would have to really dig into the original study you linked to see if there were any real concerns, but you also eat multiple grams of cysteine a day, and the acetyl group is generally healthy.

If you are concerned, combining it with agmatine may be a potential strategy - and maybe not a bad one, as agmatine helps maintain oxygen homeostasis and has been shown to prevent lung remodeling in other situations, and it also should help normalize cytokine response.

If you have any access to statins, those have been shown to reduce duration I believe as well.

Beyond that, focus on the basics IMO. Vitamin C, I would go to 10,000iu D, zinc, NAC all make sense to me. Maybe quercetin but I am not really sold on that, could just be a lack of knowledge for me.

Good luck brother. I wish you and your wife the best of course! Let me know if I can help in any way of course.

Thanks man. I appreciate it. Hope your doing well!

 

[Hyde]

https://ivmmeta.com 60 different studies say you’re wrong. Ivermectin alone could have ended this pandemic and saved hundreds of thousands of lives. The US is not transparent. They lie for profit. Other countries however are very very transparent when it comes to scientific studies.

This is my opinion. I saw enough evidence it may help and the virtual lack of risk (or cost, ivermectin is cheap!) that I had an online doc prescribe it at the end of my COVID when it was still kicking my butt after 13 days. Like a $10 copay.

I can’t say if it helped obviously, but I can say I had zero sides & was better within several days of starting it.

It has a terrific safety profile.

 

[TheIronAsylum]

Wow. That seems like a ton. I've also started her on quercetin, so we'll stick with the current regimen unless things go south.

Weirdest thing, I woke up at 3am shivering which turned into uncontrollable shaking and just felt like I needed to squirm, heart rate 110, and could smell/taste something terrible but couldn't identify it. After about an hour took a gram of vitamin C and within 30 minutes, the shivers/shaking stopped and I fell back asleep. That whole time my stomach made weird noises as well. As of now, I'm still lethargic and still can smell that weirdness. Otherwise heart rate down to 70's which is still a little high for me but no fever or shivers, no cough or congestion. I was convinced I was getting it by as the day goes on, less convinced though. I'm still getting a Covid test though just so I know.

i had the same exact thing when i had it the shivers shaking at night and when waking up.. one morning i had it for like 10 min almost called the ambulance then.. once that passed tho it seemed to be the peak of the virus for me and it was downhill after that...its very weird with this lab built virus is how everyone gets this worse at night you should go outside and get vitamin D from the sun

 

[GreenMachineX]

Another question for all but unrelated to supplements: should I be scaling back my intensity of training during quarantine? Today is day 4 since I waslast directly exposed to my wife (she went into isolation on Sunday in the back in-law suite in our home), and Tuesday I had a negative covid test but I've since learned I had the test too soon lol. Anyway, planned on resuming training today but wasn't sure if the research that intense exercise lowers immune function has been proven wrong.
Need to call in those smarter then me lol...
@HIT4ME @Hyde @thebigt @sns8778
@ValiantThor08
@Afi140
@enhanced
Who am I missing...

 

[Resolve10]

Debunking the Myth of Exercise-Induced Immune Suppression: Redefining the Impact of Exercise on Immunological Health Across the Lifespan

Epidemiological evidence indicates that regular physical activity and/or frequent structured exercise reduces the incidence of many chronic diseases in older age, including communicable diseases such as viral and bacterial infections, as well as non-communicable ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Honestly you are probably fine unless you are training for some pretty long or brutal sessions.

You could probably find research both ways so I’d just listen to your body, if you feel tired do less but again doing what you normally do if you aren’t too crazy should be fine.

Fwiw I trained harder than I probably should have and didn’t have issues but it’s always easier to give advice than follow your own.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Debunking the Myth of Exercise-Induced Immune Suppression: Redefining the Impact of Exercise on Immunological Health Across the Lifespan

Epidemiological evidence indicates that regular physical activity and/or frequent structured exercise reduces the incidence of many chronic diseases in older age, including communicable diseases such as viral and bacterial infections, as well as non-communicable ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Honestly you are probably fine unless you are training for some pretty long or brutal sessions.

You could probably find research both ways so I’d just listen to your body, if you feel tired do less but again doing what you normally do if you aren’t too crazy should be fine.

Fwiw I trained harder than I probably should have and didn’t have issues but it’s always easier to give advice than follow your own.

Good find! Yeah, I hear ya. I won't be pushing it too hard today. Usually it's 2 hours session, but I'll cap everything at 3 sets to finish at an hour.

 

[HIT4ME]

Not sure. My feeling is that overtraining probably isn't great, but if you are following normal protocol and aren't driving yourself into the ground and don't even know if you are sick....then why not?

It appears, based on my 30 seconds of Google doctoring, that exercise with long covid is beneficial.

I think the key with covid (and most things) is that you do not want to have runaway inflation, but that doesn't mean you don't want any inflation. It isn't that inflation = bad. Some inflation is necessary for proper immune response. Exercise seems to be a great way to keep that response appropriate and flexible.

Not sure anything I have said here has all that much science behind it...educated guessing.

 

[Power-Lift]

For most, the RONA is just like getting a flu.
MSM has everyone scared of a 99.8% survival rate "pandemic disease".

Wishing her the best however...

 

[sns8778]

My personal opinion would be to not overdo the training but as long as you feel like you can do it, that it should be okay.
BUT for anyone reading this that may have an autoimmune condition or compromised immune system, I wouldn't.

 

[Mixelflick]

Top of the list would be exercise. The harmful effect of NOT exercising was found to be greater than that of diabetes, cancer or cardiovascular disease. Supplementation with Vitamin D3 w/Mg Citrate, K, Zinc plus Quercetin, Selenium etc. will all help, and there's plenty of research to back that up.
https://ergo-log.com/physical-activity-makes-the...
https://ergo-log.com/vitamin-d-and-corona-infection...
https://ergo-log.com/covid-19-vitamin-k-increases...
https://ergo-log.com/indeed-zinc-protects-against-corona...
https://ergo-log.com/selenium-increases-chance-survival...

And there is a laundry list of drugs infinitely safer and more effective than these, "vaccines" used to treat COVID. Vaccines that we now know are killing and making thousands of people sick and/or disabled. And that's just 6 months after they were first introduced! Wanna guess where things will be in 10 years? 20?? The vaccine story is falling apart faster than Fauci's credibility IMO..

If you still insist on taking these "vaccines", understand you're part of an experiment - not a cure. I'm not against all vaccines, but I am against this one. Sincerely feel sorry for anyone getting pressured/"mandated" into this.... I guess "my body, my choice" only applies when killing babies. F them. Stay strong, because you're already being vindicated..

 

[Afi140]

Agreed. Train but don’t overdo it. If you feel good enough to train I would definitely do it though.

 

[Hyde]

If you actually get it, focus on getting outside and getting sunshine, but keep it to easy walking. You can try to exercise harder or train, but every time I did I would regress and have fevers most of the next day. And it would really drive the inflammation it was causing in my hip socket and low back much worse. I have heard some people had no issues exercising through it though, so pay attention to the signs your body gives you.

For most people it is extremely mild (my wife, newborn, teenage stepdaughter), but this was much more aggressive than a flu for me and some peers who got it from the same outbreak. Extremely inflammatory and damaging to certain tissues. Incredible winding, lots of low fevers and chills, and I actually quarantined longer than required because it took about 19 days to get better. Didn’t get my smell back for months.

10 weeks after I benched the greatest weights of my life btw, and 4 months later you’d never know I had it. But take it seriously if you get it so you get over it faster.

 

[Hyde]

This is all just my bropinion btw. Not a doctor. Just my n=1 experiences & opinions.

 

[sns8778]

If you actually get it, focus on getting outside and getting sunshine, but keep it to easy walking. You can try to exercise harder or train, but every time I did I would regress and have fevers most of the next day. And it would really drive the inflammation it was causing in my hip socket and low back much worse. I have heard some people had no issues exercising through it though, so pay attention to the signs your body gives you.

For most people it is extremely mild (my wife, newborn, teenage stepdaughter), but this was much more aggressive than a flu for me and some peers who got it from the same outbreak. Extremely inflammatory and damaging to certain tissues. Incredible winding, lots of low fevers and chills, and I actually quarantined longer than required because it took about 19 days to get better. Didn’t get my smell back for months.

10 weeks after I benched the greatest weights of my life btw, and 4 months later you’d never know I had it. But take it seriously if you get it so you get over it faster.

This is all just my bropinion btw. Not a doctor. Just my n=1 experiences & opinions.

I think its great that you shared your opinion as someone that it was rougher for.

The effects and how severe it is can be very individualized. I think that many people get so caught up the fact that yes, it absolutely has been politicized, but that doesn't mean that it still can't be very serious for many people.

I know several people that have passed away from it including a family member and also a personal trainer here in my town.

 

[thebigt]

Another question for all but unrelated to supplements: should I be scaling back my intensity of training during quarantine? Today is day 4 since I waslast directly exposed to my wife (she went into isolation on Sunday in the back in-law suite in our home), and Tuesday I had a negative covid test but I've since learned I had the test too soon lol. Anyway, planned on resuming training today but wasn't sure if the research that intense exercise lowers immune function has been proven wrong.
Need to call in those smarter then me lol...
@HIT4ME @Hyde @thebigt @sns8778
@ValiantThor08
@Afi140
@enhanced
Who am I missing...

i had just started training seriously for my 1st 7k race when my wife and i both tested positive for the covid back in febuary....i continued to train and my wife and i both went on long hikes together during our 14 days isolation at our lake house....just recently ran the 7k and finished right at 31 minutes..btw-i will be 63 in month and a half and had knee replacement a few years ago, i really wanted to complete under 30 minutes but nor unhappy-maybe next time.


moral of story is evidently having covid evidently didn't cause any lung or respiratory issues....and the great thing is we don't need to face the possible risk from experimental vaccine.

 

[mavup]

https://ivmmeta.com 60 different studies say you’re wrong. Ivermectin alone could have ended this pandemic and saved hundreds of thousands of lives. The US is not transparent. They lie for profit. Other countries however are very very transparent when it comes to scientific studies.

Bro, I respect that your opinion differs from mine, but I’m not sure you’re aware of the magnitude of what you’re saying - that the evidence you posted is equivocal to a Cochrane Review. Cochrane literally wrote the book on standards for meta-analyses (Cochrane Handbook for Systematic Reviews); they are consistently considered the gold standard in systematic reviews. This isn’t my quote but I liked the simplicity of the description, “Cochrane Reviews are broadly considered the final word on a topic given their rigour, transparency and independence - it's very common for those with experience in medicine to refer to ‘the Cochrane Review on X.’ […] The journal and wider Cochrane group set the methods, style, and standards, and won't publish anything not meeting them. The authors do the leg work. The whole point of such standards is that you could basically swap out all of the authors and produce a near identical review - everything is as objective as possible.”

I’m not blindly putting all of my faith into one source, but you can read these studies and see that every single one is statistically underpowered, and there are a myriad of methodological issues including randomization, ORs <0.1 for clinical endpoints, lack of adherence to CONSORT guidelines, and no prospective registration. That also goes for many of the neutral and negative results from Ivm RCTs.

I’m not saying that ivermectin won’t prove to have some utility based on the 2-3 professionally designed, well-powered studies going on now (ACTIV-6 and PRINCIPLE), just that statements like yours have to be informed by data from appropriate clinical trials. I hope as much as anyone else that ends up being the case, but that is not what the data show right now.

 

[Hyde]

I think its great that you shared your opinion as someone that it was rougher for.

The effects and how severe it is can be very individualized. I think that many people get so caught up the fact that yes, it absolutely has been politicized, but that doesn't mean that it still can't be very serious for many people.

I know several people that have passed away from it including a family member and also a personal trainer here in my town.

Definitely. I would not marginalize this virus’s potential for havoc - someone has to fill out that unfortunate percentage of the affected population. The most in shape person I know, someone nearly 10% bodyfat, regional level CrossFitter that can deadlift 600 any day of the week on just true TRT, involved in the same gym outbreak was totally wrecked from COVID. Fevers at 101+ nearly every day while loaded up on ibuprofen, and his cardiovascular conditioning and bodyfat would shame 99% of this board’s members. He ended up getting an emergency CPAP from his doctor so he could breathe at night.

Many people at the gym were asymptomatic or very mild illness, but one regularly active member in his 50s, just a little pudgy, died in the hospital after a few days. There’s at least 3 people on this board I know have lost direct family members.

The political & vaccine propaganda nauseate me. People should remember this is about people: OUR individual health & choices. I don’t condemn anyone for getting the vaccines, or avoiding them. We can’t know the longterm ramifications of them, OR of contracting COVID. Be your own health advocate - think for yourself, read critically, and stay respectful of others.

 

[thebigt]

Definitely. I would not marginalize this virus’s potential for havoc - someone has to fill out that unfortunate percentage of the affected population. The most in shape person I know, someone nearly 10% bodyfat, regional level CrossFitter that can deadlift 600 any day of the week on just true TRT, involved in the same gym outbreak was totally wrecked from COVID. Fevers at 101+ nearly every day while loaded up on ibuprofen, and his cardiovascular conditioning and bodyfat would shame 99% of this board’s members. He ended up getting an emergency CPAP from his doctor so he could breathe at night.

Many people at the gym were asymptomatic or very mild illness, but one regularly active member in his 50s, just a little pudgy, died in the hospital after a few days. There’s at least 3 people on this board I know have lost direct family members.

The political & vaccine propaganda nauseate me. People should remember this is about people: OUR individual health & choices. I don’t condemn anyone for getting the vaccines, or avoiding them. We can’t know the longterm ramifications of them, OR of contracting COVID. Be your own health advocate - think for yourself, read critically, and stay respectful of others.

there are some who think those who choose to not get vaccine should be prosecuted for manslaughter.

 

[GreenMachineX]

there are some who think those who choose to not get vaccine should be prosecuted for manslaughter.

This kind of stuff drives me crazy. It's widely known the vaccine doesn't stop infection/transmission, only severity/symptoms. So, if not getting it only puts myself at risk, would I be charged with manslaughter...against myself? lol

Nevertheless, thanks all for the input. Greatly appreciated.

 

[ValiantThor08]

Another question for all but unrelated to supplements: should I be scaling back my intensity of training during quarantine? Today is day 4 since I waslast directly exposed to my wife (she went into isolation on Sunday in the back in-law suite in our home), and Tuesday I had a negative covid test but I've since learned I had the test too soon lol. Anyway, planned on resuming training today but wasn't sure if the research that intense exercise lowers immune function has been proven wrong.
Need to call in those smarter then me lol...
@HIT4ME @Hyde @thebigt @sns8778
@ValiantThor08
@Afi140
@enhanced
Who am I missing...

I exercised when I had the COVID, got over it real quick too. The exercise didn't hurt me.

 

[Whisky]

This kind of stuff drives me crazy. It's widely known the vaccine doesn't stop infection/transmission, only severity/symptoms. So, if not getting it only puts myself at risk, would I be charged with manslaughter...against myself? lol

Nevertheless, thanks all for the input. Greatly appreciated.

this is also my view. Given the government will allow to buy cigarettes or copious amounts of booze or loads of fast food I find it hard to believe that the mandate to vaccinate by default (which is the way the uk gov appears to heading) is simply for my own health (I appreciate the option very much by the way, I also fully respect anyone who us vaccinated, I certainly don’t know if it is some conspiracy or something and I certainly wouldn’t suggest it is - I simply don’t know either way)

however, on the basis my decision not to get the vaccine doesn’t place risk onto others (who can choose to be vaccinated) then I struggle to see any issue. I accept the risk that comes with my decision (the same as those being vaccinated have to accept the risk that comes with that).

 

[HIT4ME]

This stuff is so screwy. It is just too many people drawing lines in the sand.

People thinking it is like manslaughter are stupid.

I also find it humorous people like to throw out the fictitious .02% risk of dying as a reason that you shouldn't be afraid of the virus, but then turn around and state that you SHOULD be afraid of a vaccine because of a .001% risk.

 

[Kronic]

People thinking it is like manslaughter are stupid.

my ex's dad tried to non-vaccine shame me in front of his friend. I was so mad. he's so fat, like he knows anything about health or taking care of himself. **** all those people

 

[THEstudent]

Bro, I respect that your opinion differs from mine, but I’m not sure you’re aware of the magnitude of what you’re saying - that the evidence you posted is equivocal to a Cochrane Review. Cochrane literally wrote the book on standards for meta-analyses (Cochrane Handbook for Systematic Reviews); they are consistently considered the gold standard in systematic reviews. This isn’t my quote but I liked the simplicity of the description, “Cochrane Reviews are broadly considered the final word on a topic given their rigour, transparency and independence - it's very common for those with experience in medicine to refer to ‘the Cochrane Review on X.’ […] The journal and wider Cochrane group set the methods, style, and standards, and won't publish anything not meeting them. The authors do the leg work. The whole point of such standards is that you could basically swap out all of the authors and produce a near identical review - everything is as objective as possible.”

I’m not blindly putting all of my faith into one source, but you can read these studies and see that every single one is statistically underpowered, and there are a myriad of methodological issues including randomization, ORs <0.1 for clinical endpoints, lack of adherence to CONSORT guidelines, and no prospective registration. That also goes for many of the neutral and negative results from Ivm RCTs.

I’m not saying that ivermectin won’t prove to have some utility based on the 2-3 professionally designed, well-powered studies going on now (ACTIV-6 and PRINCIPLE), just that statements like yours have to be informed by data from appropriate clinical trials. I hope as much as anyone else that ends up being the case, but that is not what the data show right now.

The Cochrane Review is certainly credible but they are NOT the final authority. I would put the work of Dr. Pierre Kory and Paul Marik of covid19criticalcare.com above anything The Cochrane Review would say as Dr. Kory and Marik are actually treating patients.

 

[GreenMachineX]

This stuff is so screwy. It is just too many people drawing lines in the sand.

People thinking it is like manslaughter are stupid.

I also find it humorous people like to throw out the fictitious .02% risk of dying as a reason that you shouldn't be afraid of the virus, but then turn around and state that you SHOULD be afraid of a vaccine because of a .001% risk.

I personally don't like either odds lol. But the thing about the vaccine is what we don't know that could happen next year, or in 3 years, etc.

 

[thebigt]

I personally don't like either odds lol. But the thing about the vaccine is what we don't know that could happen next year, or in 3 years, etc.

i don't think anyone can say for certain.

 

[poison]

This stuff is so screwy. It is just too many people drawing lines in the sand.

People thinking it is like manslaughter are stupid.

I also find it humorous people like to throw out the fictitious .02% risk of dying as a reason that you shouldn't be afraid of the virus, but then turn around and state that you SHOULD be afraid of a vaccine because of a .001% risk.

You're using polarizing language to elicit a response. Some people are afraid, but the ones cowering are those who think their own kids are walking Trojan horse vectors of death, haven't left their houses more than once a month for 'provisions', wear 3 medical masks while driving alone in their car, and have fauci:s esquire cover as the Screensaver on their phone.

The people who are suspicious of:

1) pfizer/big pharm, because they remember multi-billion $ lawsuits, experiments on African kids that killed hundreds, and multiple releases of drugs that hurt and killed thousands, and

2) the govt, which has brought us hits like the patriot act, 2 useless wars to the tune of trillions of $ and millions of dead corpses, fast and furious, Libya, epstein didn't kill himself, election fraud, and thousands of other travesties

Are not afraid. They're just not stupid, like the first group, who while 2 or 5 years ago was all about distrust of big pharm and the govt, has suddenly done an about face, and is knob slobbering every facet of authoritarian rule they can find, and is more than happy to bitch snitch on their former friends and neighnors because they had a NON FAMILY MEMBER OVER DURING QUARANTINE, or DIDN'T WEAR A MASK BETWEEN THE FRONT DOOR AND THE CAR.

Rhetoric aside, risk assessment is personal. From the time you get up in the morning, to the time you go to bed, we all are assessing risk. The drive to work? The most dangerous thing most of us do, though barebacking strippers is close. You've assessed that drive long ago, deemed it worthy of the risk, and don't give it a second thought. The guy coming up behind you at the atm? You assess it. And everyone is OK with that. But for some reason with covid people lost their goddamn minds. For some reason, we are deemed incapable of assessing the risk correctly, and our overlords, with the help of their bitch ass neighbor snitch psycophants, decided you and I are incapable of assessing THIS risk, and acting in a rational manner. They decided they needed to decide for us. And because they control the govt, the media, big tech, the education system, and allegedly 50% of the country, they've done a fine job of fucking our freedom to make personal risk assessments on this issue. Hey, I can base jump the **** out of tomorrow, or cross the border illegally, no problem, but walk into a federal facility without a mask? Enjoy the perp walk, in cuffs.

Back to those numbers: you think one is more deserving of concern than the other, and numerically, this is correct. But life isn't a mathematical equation, and not everyone values safety over everything else. Some people value living over some miniscule mathematical improvement in survivability. Some people trust 200k years of human immune system evolution over 18 years of mRNA diddling. Some people would rather take their chances with a virus they have no control over, rather than the injection which they do have a say over (there is 0 guarantee you'll get covid anyway, getting covid or the vax are not the only 2 options).

Your biggest mistake? It's the one everyone is making. Risk isn't spread evenly among everyone. It's a sliding scale by age and disability. A 19yo state level athlete? 0 risk. A 64yo obese schlump? They take on a majority of the. 02%. And conversely, the risk from the vaccine also seems to be an inverse sliding scale, with youth way more at risk for complications than the elderly (and also far less to gain from taking that risk on). It's convenient to spread the risk evenly, but nuts a flat lie.

Myself? I'm on the border of the danger zone at 47yo. But I'm extremely fit, low body fat, healthy, eat well, get lots of sun, take zinc, mag, vit d, etc daily. I prefer the natural method, I've been heavily exposed many times, I do bjj 3x a week with no masks since November.....im 100% comfortable accepting the risk, and absolutely abhor all attempts to make that judgment for me.

To anyone who wants to do so: go **** yourself.

 

[SkRaw85]

You're using polarizing language to elicit a response. Some people are afraid, but the ones cowering are those who think their own kids are walking Trojan horse vectors of death, haven't left their houses more than once a month for 'provisions', wear 3 medical masks while driving alone in their car, and have fauci:s esquire cover as the Screensaver on their phone.

The people who are suspicious of:

1) pfizer/big pharm, because they remember multi-billion $ lawsuits, experiments on African kids that killed hundreds, and multiple releases of drugs that hurt and killed thousands, and

2) the govt, which has brought us hits like the patriot act, 2 useless wars to the tune of trillions of $ and millions of dead corpses, fast and furious, Libya, epstein didn't kill himself, election fraud, and thousands of other travesties

Are not afraid. They're just not stupid, like the first group, who while 2 or 5 years ago was all about distrust of big pharm and the govt, has suddenly done an about face, and is knob slobbering every facet of authoritarian rule they can find, and is more than happy to bitch snitch on their former friends and neighnors because they had a NON FAMILY MEMBER OVER DURING QUARANTINE, or DIDN'T WEAR A MASK BETWEEN THE FRONT DOOR AND THE CAR.

Rhetoric aside, risk assessment is personal. From the time you get up in the morning, to the time you go to bed, we all are assessing risk. The drive to work? The most dangerous thing most of us do, though barebacking strippers is close. You've assessed that drive long ago, deemed it worthy of the risk, and don't give it a second thought. The guy coming up behind you at the atm? You assess it. And everyone is OK with that. But for some reason with covid people lost their goddamn minds. For some reason, we are deemed incapable of assessing the risk correctly, and our overlords, with the help of their bitch ass neighbor snitch psycophants, decided you and I are incapable of assessing THIS risk, and acting in a rational manner. They decided they needed to decide for us. And because they control the govt, the media, big tech, the education system, and allegedly 50% of the country, they've done a fine job of fucking our freedom to make personal risk assessments on this issue. Hey, I can base jump the **** out of tomorrow, or cross the border illegally, no problem, but walk into a federal facility without a mask? Enjoy the perp walk, in cuffs.

Back to those numbers: you think one is more deserving of concern than the other, and numerically, this is correct. But life isn't a mathematical equation, and not everyone values safety over everything else. Some people value living over some miniscule mathematical improvement in survivability. Some people trust 200k years of human immune system evolution over 18 years of mRNA diddling. Some people would rather take their chances with a virus they have no control over, rather than the injection which they do have a say over (there is 0 guarantee you'll get covid anyway, getting covid or the vax are not the only 2 options).

Your biggest mistake? It's the one everyone is making. Risk isn't spread evenly among everyone. It's a sliding scale by age and disability. A 19yo state level athlete? 0 risk. A 64yo obese schlump? They take on a majority of the. 02%. And conversely, the risk from the vaccine also seems to be an inverse sliding scale, with youth way more at risk for complications than the elderly (and also far less to gain from taking that risk on). It's convenient to spread the risk evenly, but nuts a flat lie.

Myself? I'm on the border of the danger zone at 47yo. But I'm extremely fit, low body fat, healthy, eat well, get lots of sun, take zinc, mag, vit d, etc daily. I prefer the natural method, I've been heavily exposed many times, I do bjj 3x a week with no masks since November.....im 100% comfortable accepting the risk, and absolutely abhor all attempts to make that judgment for me.

To anyone who wants to do so: go **** yourself.

Spoken like a true champion.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Aside from the vaccine, my wife had a couple bouts of nausea yesterday and even 1 vomiting, but otherwise everything else the same. At 7 days in, that's not what I would've expected for covid. On the other hand, she's extremely susceptible to nausea and vomiting with anything.

 

[poison]

Aside from the vaccine, my wife had a couple bouts of nausea yesterday and even 1 vomiting, but otherwise everything else the same. At 7 days in, that's not what I would've expected for covid. On the other hand, she's extremely susceptible to nausea and vomiting with anything.

Excellent! Hey, the vast majority either don't know they even had it, or barely get sick. I'm glad she's doing well.

A friend of mine, double vaxxed, who has worked from home, worn a mask, and if he goes out it's mostly to hike or camp, got covid this week. Another Pfizer Ovid recovered AND vaxxed woman I work with went to the ER last night with chest pains, and they wouldn't let her leave. And people call me crazy for wanting to know more before I take it.....

 

[GreenMachineX]

Excellent! Hey, the vast majority either don't know they even had it, or barely get sick. I'm glad she's doing well.

A friend of mine, double vaxxed, who has worked from home, worn a mask, and if he goes out it's mostly to hike or camp, got covid this week. Another Pfizer Ovid recovered AND vaxxed woman I work with went to the ER last night with chest pains, and they wouldn't let her leave. And people call me crazy for wanting to know more before I take it.....

I'd love to know the vitamin D, C and zinc status of all these people who get knocked down from covid so hard, particularly the ones who appear to be poster children of health.

But not sure where I posted this here, but we do know people who died from the vaccine.

 

[TommyTuffGuy]

You all need to be dosing Lugol's Iodine daily, at least 2-4 drops. I hit around 10 per day.

Never get sick. Thyroid correction. Anti-Aging. the ONE time I had the flu I did a dosing protocol with it (I hadn't taken it yet, it was the first time I order it to 'see' if it would work) 14-16 drops ever two hours, this was "can't get off the couch flu" that you'd have for 2 weeks straight.

Dosed the protocol from 8am (when amazon came) and by 4pm I sat up, stood up, and it was GONE. I was able to work out the same day.

EDIT: poison is the man.

 

[poison]

I'd love to know the vitamin D, C and zinc status of all these people who get knocked down from covid so hard, particularly the ones who appear to be poster children of health.

But not sure where I posted this here, but we do know people who died from the vaccine.

Logical people: 'hey, while we figure this thing out, we know obesity and poor fitness play a huge part in bad outcomes, so maybe start working out, lose some weight, take a multi/zinc/d, and here's some healthy foods you can eat, maybe go for a jog outside with your shirt off or something #takethed

(political) Scientists: hey, obese people are at risk, so we're going to close gyms, no wait we can do better. We're closing the outdoors to everyone (do you doubt our power to do so, peasant?), and making all citizens stay home, and no bitches, you can't have ANYONE over, but don't worry, we will pump you with fear porn 24/7, since you'll be glued to your device out of sheer boredom. BTW, you can also Uber Eats cocktails now, straight to your door! Oh, you gained 55 lbs over the last year while watching antifa burn whole cities and the boogie virus went door to door killing people? THANK YOU FOR DOING YOUR PART, DEAR CITIZEN! WEAR 3 MASKS!

Also (political) Scientists: CASES ARE RISING! OMG WTF WHARGGDEDVBJGF uh vaccines are 100% effective! No 95%! They protect YOU and not ME! If you vaccinate, you don't need a mask, because masks don't work, vaccines do! Wait no vaccines actually don't protect you, just me, and it's not 95%, it's more like 66%. ****, they don't protect you OR me, and it's like 40%. I mean 38%. You all need to wear masks instead. Yeah yeah, we know last month masks didn't work, but now they do again! SCIENCE!

 

[johnsar]

Logical people: 'hey, while we figure this thing out, we know obesity and poor fitness play a huge part in bad outcomes, so maybe start working out, lose some weight, take a multi/zinc/d, and here's some healthy foods you can eat, maybe go for a jog outside with your shirt off or something #takethed

(political) Scientists: hey, obese people are at risk, so we're going to close gyms, no wait we can do better. We're closing the outdoors to everyone (do you doubt our power to do so, peasant?), and making all citizens stay home, and no bitches, you can't have ANYONE over, but don't worry, we will pump you with fear porn 24/7, since you'll be glued to your device out of sheer boredom. BTW, you can also Uber Eats cocktails now, straight to your door! Oh, you gained 55 lbs over the last year while watching antifa burn whole cities and the boogie virus went door to door killing people? THANK YOU FOR DOING YOUR PART, DEAR CITIZEN! WEAR 3 MASKS!

Also (political) Scientists: CASES ARE RISING! OMG WTF WHARGGDEDVBJGF uh vaccines are 100% effective! No 95%! They protect YOU and not ME! If you vaccinate, you don't need a mask, because masks don't work, vaccines do! Wait no vaccines actually don't protect you, just me, and it's not 95%, it's more like 66%. ****, they don't protect you OR me, and it's like 40%. I mean 38%. You all need to wear masks instead. Yeah yeah, we know last month masks didn't work, but now they do again! SCIENCE!

100% on the money...Its nothing more than the flu with creative bookkeeping. Gee..what happened to the flu? Does anyone remember the flu?!!
The vaccine does a lot of things,, none of which stop this flu. You need to have the thing isolated to create a vaccine which i understand they still havent done. No one knows whats actually in these operating systems, but for some reason people will inject themselves with it. But wait,, i cant have that,, it has gluten !!! Some people you just cant wake up.

 

[Hyde]

You all need to be dosing Lugol's Iodine daily, at least 2-4 drops. I hit around 10 per day.

Never get sick. Thyroid correction. Anti-Aging. the ONE time I had the flu I did a dosing protocol with it (I hadn't taken it yet, it was the first time I order it to 'see' if it would work) 14-16 drops ever two hours, this was "can't get off the couch flu" that you'd have for 2 weeks straight.

Dosed the protocol from 8am (when amazon came) and by 4pm I sat up, stood up, and it was GONE. I was able to work out the same day.

EDIT: poison is the man.

I wish they had just iodized salt so people would no longer be deficient, and that it was sold for like $1/kg tubs at every store in America so you could just use it daily on your food…wait…

 

[thebigt]

I wish they had just iodized salt so people would no longer be deficient, and that it was sold for like $1/kg tubs at every store in America so you could just use it daily on your food…wait…

seaweed, dairy, tuna, shrimp and eggs and of course table salt....looks like those on vegetarian/vegan diets should definately be supplementing with iodine since most of those also limit use of salt.

 

[Hyde]

seaweed, dairy, tuna, shrimp and eggs and of course table salt....looks like those on vegetarian/vegan diets should definately be supplementing with iodine since most of those also limit use of salt.

To Tommy’s point, iodine is extremely important.

I just hate that so many folks have been told salt is bad over years, or that pink/blue/Himalayan/magic stardust $10/shaker salt is somehow superior…these two factors are the biggest contributors to iodine deficiency which should never have been a general problem again. Guess I’m just ‘salty’ about it

 

[thebigt]

To Tommy’s point, iodine is extremely important.

I just hate that so many folks have been told salt is bad over years, or that pink/blue/Himalayan/magic stardust $10/shaker salt is somehow superior…these two factors are the biggest contributors to iodine deficiency which should never have been a general problem again. Guess I’m just ‘salty’ about it

agreed!!

 

[HIT4ME]

You're using polarizing language to elicit a response. Some people are afraid, but the ones cowering are those who think their own kids are walking Trojan horse vectors of death, haven't left their houses more than once a month for 'provisions', wear 3 medical masks while driving alone in their car, and have fauci:s esquire cover as the Screensaver on their phone.

The people who are suspicious of:

1) pfizer/big pharm, because they remember multi-billion $ lawsuits, experiments on African kids that killed hundreds, and multiple releases of drugs that hurt and killed thousands, and

2) the govt, which has brought us hits like the patriot act, 2 useless wars to the tune of trillions of $ and millions of dead corpses, fast and furious, Libya, epstein didn't kill himself, election fraud, and thousands of other travesties

Are not afraid. They're just not stupid, like the first group, who while 2 or 5 years ago was all about distrust of big pharm and the govt, has suddenly done an about face, and is knob slobbering every facet of authoritarian rule they can find, and is more than happy to bitch snitch on their former friends and neighnors because they had a NON FAMILY MEMBER OVER DURING QUARANTINE, or DIDN'T WEAR A MASK BETWEEN THE FRONT DOOR AND THE CAR.

Rhetoric aside, risk assessment is personal. From the time you get up in the morning, to the time you go to bed, we all are assessing risk. The drive to work? The most dangerous thing most of us do, though barebacking strippers is close. You've assessed that drive long ago, deemed it worthy of the risk, and don't give it a second thought. The guy coming up behind you at the atm? You assess it. And everyone is OK with that. But for some reason with covid people lost their goddamn minds. For some reason, we are deemed incapable of assessing the risk correctly, and our overlords, with the help of their bitch ass neighbor snitch psycophants, decided you and I are incapable of assessing THIS risk, and acting in a rational manner. They decided they needed to decide for us. And because they control the govt, the media, big tech, the education system, and allegedly 50% of the country, they've done a fine job of fucking our freedom to make personal risk assessments on this issue. Hey, I can base jump the **** out of tomorrow, or cross the border illegally, no problem, but walk into a federal facility without a mask? Enjoy the perp walk, in cuffs.

Back to those numbers: you think one is more deserving of concern than the other, and numerically, this is correct. But life isn't a mathematical equation, and not everyone values safety over everything else. Some people value living over some miniscule mathematical improvement in survivability. Some people trust 200k years of human immune system evolution over 18 years of mRNA diddling. Some people would rather take their chances with a virus they have no control over, rather than the injection which they do have a say over (there is 0 guarantee you'll get covid anyway, getting covid or the vax are not the only 2 options).

Your biggest mistake? It's the one everyone is making. Risk isn't spread evenly among everyone. It's a sliding scale by age and disability. A 19yo state level athlete? 0 risk. A 64yo obese schlump? They take on a majority of the. 02%. And conversely, the risk from the vaccine also seems to be an inverse sliding scale, with youth way more at risk for complications than the elderly (and also far less to gain from taking that risk on). It's convenient to spread the risk evenly, but nuts a flat lie.

Myself? I'm on the border of the danger zone at 47yo. But I'm extremely fit, low body fat, healthy, eat well, get lots of sun, take zinc, mag, vit d, etc daily. I prefer the natural method, I've been heavily exposed many times, I do bjj 3x a week with no masks since November.....im 100% comfortable accepting the risk, and absolutely abhor all attempts to make that judgment for me.

To anyone who wants to do so: go **** yourself.

Geez man. I love you, and we agree with much....but you couldn't have proven my point any better if you tried. I started by saying people who think not getting vaccinated = manslaughter is stupid, a statement that surely would put me in the "not over reacting" group (the group you are saying you want). My point was also that drawing such stark lines in the sand is THE problem here.

So you respond by drawing a bunch of lines in the sand and claiming I'm using polarizing language to elicit a response? Maybe you are just triggered by anyone who hasn't taken your stance on your side of the line?

I highlighted some parts in bold that I pretty much agree with you on. I just don't see it as a black and white solid line situation.

You read into my mathematical equation somewhat incorrectly because you are drawing a line. I didn't say that it was wrong to fear covid, and I didn't say it was wrong to fear vaccination. Nor right. I didn't make any assessment other than, you can't apply logic to one end and then not the other. And people also shouldn't parrot incorrect facts, like only 0.2% of people are dying. That's just not the truth.

Further, you make the point that we all assess risks, it's personal, and people don't have to be logical. Well, I agree - and I also know that people are NOT logical or rational. People who are logical and rational make a LOT of money off the irrational behaviors of others - stocks being a great example. The government being another. I was merely pointing out the irrationality of these juxtaposed statements from people who have drawn a line in the stand and chosen a side. If it was purely logical, then the vaccine will win out for safety. If it is an illogical, irrational and personal decision, then yeah - we're open to just getting the virus. But both sides of the line are claiming to be using logic and unfortunately, the vaccine side is more logical through this filter. Through other filters - freedom being an important one - people make personal decisions. I walk through life every day with someone drinking and driving, carrying a gun next to me in the store, walking by me with a non-coronavirus cold because they didn't want to stay home, etc. And I'm fine with that. If life had to be perfect for me to live it, I'd be in real trouble. I think you and I agree here more than we disagree.

I will also say that, using logic, you are doing what you are saying - you are being poor at risk assessment. As a 47 y/o male you are in a prime risk group, statistically speaking, for dying from Covid. As the "Covid is a cold" side loves to parrot - the 80 year olds who get Covid - well, they were all gonna die anyway. Their statistical risk of dying from all causes has only been marginally increased during Covid. The 40-60 year old group though....they were pretty unlikely to die and their increased risk of dying from all causes during covid has gone up more than any other group. Are we talking big scary numbers? I don't think so. But if we're just going to be purely logical and rational, it's a filter that has to be considered.

40-60 year olds are also a heck of a lot more mobile than 80 year olds and thus more communicable.

40-60 year olds also interact with more children than 80 year olds typically (Hugh Hefner being one exception when he was alive - loved your stripper comment btw)

Maybe we should spend less time vaccinating 80 year olds and focus on the 40-60 year olds?

But yeah, just so you know I chose the J&J vaccine built on a more known platform. The Pfizer/Moderna mRNA vaccines are unproven, have shown to increase IL-6 levels to a point that may trigger, in theory, some autoimmune diseases, etc. - so I decided to avoid it.

Ultimately my assessment is that the chances of getting Covid are pretty much 100%. Just like the chances of me getting the flu. Eventually, if I am lucky to live long enough, I will get it. And it could be bad or I could be fine. Maybe I only have the sniffles.

The chances of me getting an autoimmune disease or having a stroke from a vaccine....much smaller.

Now, if you're under 50 and nervous about that, no issue on my end. I do have issues with people forcing people to conform to their own ideas too, so mandating something is not really my thing. We don't mandate a lot of "proven" things - mandating unproven things with little evidence is kind of stupid and illogical in my view. I think we pretty much agree here too.

If I was over 60 though and applied the "I'm eventually getting Covid" paradigm - the fear of getting an autoimmune disease in 5 years vs. dying from Covid does change in my eyes.

Using your exercise paradigm - which I agree with - should we mandate that fat people should exercise or only be allowed to eat 2000 calories/day? I mean, you are right after all, it would help. I'm not saying you are saying we should do this - just showing another side to consider. One group draws a line saying, "You have to wear a mask" and another can say, "You have to go for a walk you fat piece." and both may be right about their underlying beliefs, but wrong in the "mandating" part of it.

My believe is, wearing a mask protects others from my mucous. Given that I may be a vector for a highly infectious and deadly disease during an outbreak, I wore it while unvaccinated as a courtesy to others. Unfortunately, courtesy is kind of not how people do things anymore.

Anyway @GreenMachineX sorry for the hijack here....my fault.

I am sorry to hear your wife is now vomitting, hopefully that is the extent of it and she feels better soon. My thoughts are with you.

 

[HIT4ME]

To Tommy’s point, iodine is extremely important.

I just hate that so many folks have been told salt is bad over years, or that pink/blue/Himalayan/magic stardust $10/shaker salt is somehow superior…these two factors are the biggest contributors to iodine deficiency which should never have been a general problem again. Guess I’m just ‘salty’ about it

I am so sick of the people in my life acting like salt is so bad for you. They avoid salt but continue to eat sugar and corn syrup in mass quantities. And their doctors keep telling them to cut it out and that really drives me insane. Based on what evidence??

Sometimes I say, "What happens if you eat too much salt?"

"You get high blood pressure and may have a heart attack"

"What happens if you don't eat enough salt?"

"Ummm, I don't know?"

"....your muscles can't contract."

"Oh, really?"

"Yeah. Isn't your heart a muscle? Didn't you just say you were worried about it stopping?"

 

[GreenMachineX]

Wow. What happened in this thread? lol

I might need to look at our iodine intake. I get enough in eggs, but now that we switched multis again, I didn't even look at that too compare...

Update: my wife's nausea didn't last until today so she doing well again. Daughter is getting better too. And my son and I continue to have no symptoms. All great things. Thanks for the support all.

 

[mavup]

The Cochrane Review is certainly credible but they are NOT the final authority. I would put the work of Dr. Pierre Kory and Paul Marik of covid19criticalcare.com above anything The Cochrane Review would say as Dr. Kory and Marik are actually treating patients.

What exactly would put Kory and Marik above the Cochrane Review? Their meta-analysis with some seriously questionable studies (Elgazzar 2020)? Or, is it just their unpublished data (anecdotes and observations) from treating patients?

You are correct in that the final authority will come from clinical trials recruiting thousands of patients. However, the Cochrane Review is the most accurate assessment of the data and evidence available right now. The review by Kory et al. is not equatorial, and you can even find where Cochrane compares their analysis to other meta-analyses. Treating patients gives them observational data and anecdotes that are subject to bias and are not randomized. There is no shortage of treatments that looked great in observational studies, and then the efficacy signal vanishes or demonstrates harm in the large RCTs. Off the top of my head, that was the case for drugs like colchicine for COVID early on, and famously, HRT in post-menopausal women.

As far as Kory et al.:

"Kory 2021 identified seven RCTs on the efficacy of ivermectin in outpatients with mild COVID‐19 and six RCTs in hospitalized people with COVID‐19. The review was published in the American Journal of Therapeutics and did not provide any search date or other methodological details used for meta‐analyses. Kory 2021 concluded there was a mortality benefit based on the inclusion of six of the 13 studies (odds ratio (OR) 0.13, 95% CI 0.07 to 0.28), which was not a valid inclusion because Elgazzar 2020, Hashim 2020, Mahmud 2021, and Niaee 2020 were not eligible for the reasons described above, and Cadegiani 2020 was not an RCT. As described for Hill 2021, there remains only one small study (Kirti 2021), and a high degree of uncertainty for a mortality benefit."

The "reasons described above" for study ineligibility:

"We did not include five of the six studies in our meta‐analysis on mortality of people with moderate COVID‐19, including Elgazzar 2020, Hashim 2020, Mahmud 2021, Niaee 2020, and Okumuş 2021. Hashim 2020 and Mahmud 2021 combined ivermectin with doxycycline, which makes it impossible to isolate any potential effect to the individual drugs used. Elgazzar 2020 compared ivermectin to hydroxychloroquine. The latter is not effective for the treatment of COVID‐19 and has resulted in clinical adverse effects (Singh 2021). We did not consider hydroxychloroquine an eligible comparator to investigate the efficacy and safety profile of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID‐19. Niaee 2020 included a population of about 30% of people who were SARS‐CoV‐2‐negative, which we did not consider appropriate to investigate SARS‐CoV‐2‐specific antiviral effect of ivermectin."

Have you read the Elgazzar 2020 study or its criticisms? There is strong evidence of fraud! There were also widespread errors in data reporting and blatant plagiarism. Best part yet? Elgazzar 2020 was by far one of the most convincing studies on ivermectin based on size and was the centerpiece of a lot of the positive evidence reported by meta-analyses.

"The main error is that at least 79 of the patient records are obvious clones of other records,” Brown told the Guardian. “It’s certainly the hardest to explain away as innocent error, especially since the clones aren’t even pure copies. There are signs that they have tried to change one or two fields to make them look more natural."

Add in that Kory et al. also includes Niaee 2020, which, according to the discrepancies in the PCR positivity between the groups, brings the study randomization into question.

Evidenced here:

"Even if not eligible for the Cochrane Review, two studies in Bryant 2021 and all the other meta‐analyses were notable because of the size of the effect reported and the narrow CIs: Elgazzar 2020 and Niaee 2020 help drive the large effects seen in the random‐effects analysis. Elgazzar 2020, for example, reported among people with severe disease two deaths out of 100 in the ivermectin group and 20 deaths out of 100 in the chloroquine group; and Niaee 2020 reported two deaths out of 100 in the ivermectin group and 11 deaths out of 60 in the control group. These effect sizes are extreme. A recent press release claimed that the large trial by Elgazzar 2020 showed clear signs of fraudulence and should be withdrawn over ethical concerns (The Guardian 2021). Research Square withdrew this preprint on 14 July 2021 due to an expression of concern (Elgazzar 2020)."

Criticism of methodology for websites like ivmmeta:

"The website ivmmeta.com provides several meta‐analyses of pooled effects including up to 60 studies. This website shows pooled estimates suggesting significant benefits with ivermectin, which has resulted in confusion for clinicians, patients, and decision‐makers (Garegnani 2021). The analyses are misleading and have several limitations. As described for the other reviews, several ineligible interventions and comparators were pooled. Additionally, different outcomes were pooled and reported as percentage improvement with ivermectin studied in RCTs ranging from 40% improvement when used as late treatment to 83% improvement when used as prophylaxis. However, there is no full prospective protocol available describing the relevant review methodology, and there is no assessment of the risk of bias or the certainty of evidence."

 

[mavup]

The Cochrane Review is certainly credible but they are NOT the final authority. I would put the work of Dr. Pierre Kory and Paul Marik of covid19criticalcare.com above anything The Cochrane Review would say as Dr. Kory and Marik are actually treating patients.

(Continued) The problem with the current data on ivermectin is that without strict protocols to assess bias, evidence certainty, quality of evidence, methodology, etc., people have no way of knowing that not all evidence is equal. It is difficult when experts are willfully advocating against ivermectin RCTs in place of "real-world" evidence. The research in Vero E6 cells (monkey kidney) where ivermectin displayed anti-SARS-Cov-2 activity is not the same as the same research conducted in human primary airway epithelium that failed to replicate results, even at 2x the concentration. Despite the in vitro mechanism and human pharmacokinetics (from anti-parasitic doses) not supporting use in COVID, there still could be a useful therapeutic effect found in clinical trials. For example, there may be evidence that instead of utility as a prophylactic/anti-viral, the mechanism may be immunomodulatory through B and T-cell recruitment later on in the disease process. The story of ivermectin is not as simple as looking at all of the positive data and ignoring neutral and negative results, and vice versa. You can read some of the studies that lack pre-defined clinical endpoints (or change them) and see that ivermectin did not have the effect they expected to see for their original research question, so they run tests until they get a positive result. The quality of lots of the evidence is abysmal, but there are a small number of solid RCTs that show a positive effect from ivermectin therapy. Some RCTs like IVECOR, the largest study (appropriate methodology/CONSORT adherence, but still underpowered), are contradictory and even show a statistically significant, adverse effect of ivermectin on time-to-ventilation. Or, according to Cochrane authors, they are uncertain (because of very low certainty evidence) whether ivermectin has positive or negative effects on clinical outcomes, including death. Seriously, inpatient: 85% reduction in deaths - 150% increase in deaths; outpatient: 99% reduction in deaths - 705% increase in deaths. Everyone assumes that ivermectin's safety profile against parasites like helminths (which is entirely different than what many trials are looking at in terms of dose and frequency) is transitive to treating COVID-19, without regard for signals of a neutral or negative effect from RCTs. There is enough positive evidence to warrant large-scale clinical trials recruiting in the thousands like PRINCIPLE, ACTIV-6, and TOGETHER. My greatest concern is that when the results of these trials are out, will people believe them, or will they double down on the ivermectin fandom? Unfortunately, people are already out there on hive-mind forums (not saying here, but Reddit, for sure) and social media sowing the narrative that these trials are intentionally designed to fail.

Edit: minor grammar change

 

[THEstudent]

(Continued) The problem with the current data on ivermectin is that without strict protocols to assess bias, evidence certainty, quality of evidence, methodology, etc., people have no way of knowing that not all evidence is equal. It is difficult when experts are willfully advocating against ivermectin RCTs in place of "real-world" evidence. The research in Vero E6 cells (monkey kidney) where ivermectin displayed anti-SARS-Cov-2 activity is not the same as the same research conducted in human primary airway epithelium that failed to replicate results, even at 2x the concentration. Despite the in vitro mechanism and human pharmacokinetics (from anti-parasitic doses) not supporting use in COVID, there still could be a useful therapeutic effect found in clinical trials. For example, there may be evidence that instead of utility as a prophylactic/anti-viral, the mechanism may be immunomodulatory through B and T-cell recruitment later on in the disease process. The story of ivermectin is not as simple as looking at all of the positive data and ignoring neutral and negative results, and vice versa. You can read some of the studies that lack pre-defined clinical endpoints (or change them) and see that ivermectin did not have the effect they expected to see for their original research question, so they run tests until they get a positive result. The quality of lots of the evidence is abysmal, but there are a small number of solid RCTs that show a positive effect from ivermectin therapy. Some RCTs like IVECOR, the largest study (appropriate methodology/CONSORT adherence, but still underpowered), are contradictory and even show a statistically significant, adverse effect of ivermectin on time-to-ventilation. Or, according to Cochrane authors, they are uncertain (because of very low certainty evidence) whether ivermectin has positive or negative effects on clinical outcomes, including death. Seriously, inpatient: 85% reduction in deaths - 150% increase in deaths; outpatient: 99% reduction in deaths - 705% increase in deaths. Everyone assumes that ivermectin's safety profile against parasites like helminths (which is entirely different than what many trials are looking at in terms of dose and frequency) is transitive to treating COVID-19, without regard for signals of a neutral or negative effect from RCTs. There is enough positive evidence to warrant large-scale clinical trials recruiting in the thousands like PRINCIPLE, ACTIV-6, and TOGETHER. My greatest concern is that when the results of these trials are out, will people believe them, or will they double down on the ivermectin fandom? Unfortunately, people are already out there on hive-mind forums (not saying here, but Reddit, for sure) and social media sowing the narrative that these trials are intentionally designed to fail.

Edit: minor grammar change

@mavup you have pointed out that Ivermectin doesn't have "perfect" evidence of efficacy based on all these variables. You are not wrong in what you are saying but what I am saying is that there is enough evidence from doctors on the frontlines and studies done to warrant using this drug to fight COVID. We can pick apart all day on studies but what really matters is real world results and based on my personal experience and the personal experience of others suggests that Ivermectin is a viable treatment for COVID. Have you ever thought that the criticisms of Ivermectin as a treatment could be that it is cheap and effective and could be readily available to everyone? Don't be short sighted about the profit motive involved in this "pandemic".